10 ms·

Ford’s first electric F-150 delivery

61 points by IdEntities 4y ago

oneguynick 4y ago
Hi - I am the owner of this F-150 Lightning! Happy to answer any questions. I am blogging about it at https://geekyschmidt.com https://geekyschmidt.com
ChristianGeek 4y ago
To be honest, I’d buy the Ford over the Tesla in a heartbeat if I was in the market (and had the budget) for an electric truck.
- quantified 4y ago
  Ford does not need to iterate and refine its way to a truck that is suitable for real work, they've had that down for a long time. Plus they have a massive network. Tesla can certainly get a hold in the pickup market but man do they have one ugly truck.
  - dieselgate 4y ago
    It seems to me the electric f150 and Tesla truck will appeal to very different consumer demographics. I anticipate the e-f150 will not purely be considered a consumer vehicle just because it has so much fleet potential. Curious what it will mean for Rivian, their trucks look slick but not sure how much runway/room for error the company has.
  - edmundsauto 4y ago
    I actually like their truck aesthetic, but I have no confidence in the fit and finish, nor ownership dimensions. I am optimizing for the bottom 20% of ownership experiences - if it breaks, has issues, etc - my money is on a traditional car company. It also makes me feel good to not support the Elon machine.
    - oneoff786 4y ago
      I’m not sure it’s a safe bet that traditional car company repair options will work well for new electric vehicles. It remains to be tested for sure. Edit: in some ways the traditional repair shops could be a liability if they’re slow to adapt
      - evgen 4y ago
        In this case it is likely that the local repair shop will have some ability to source/replace a lot of parts that are common across the F series, which should cover a lot of repair jobs. For complicated electrical/drivetrain issues they can push the job up the chain to either a dealership or a more specialised part of the Ford repair network and over time the capability to perform those repairs will start to filter out to the edges of the network. By the time Ford is pushing EVs hard it is quite likely that their existing network will be ready to provide the sort of repair and support services that Tesla is famous for failing at.
        oneoff786 4y ago
        Maybe. I would wait a good while before making a major purchase like this from either brand on such a new product line.
  - Melting_Harps 4y ago
    > Ford does not need to iterate and refine its way to a truck that is suitable for real work, they've had that down for a long time. Plus they have a massive network. You're missing the biggest obstacle here after manufacturing, charging is incredibly difficult in many cases entirely impossible due to a lack maintenance on 3rd party charging stations. Here is a Bloomberg article outlining what happens more often than not due to this [0]. After many years working for Japanese and German auto manufacturers this exactly why I argue Tesla isn't really a car company, they seem to be more of an energy and software company using cars that utilize their energy grid and technology. What they've done under people's noses is to offset the costs of creating an ever-expanding charging network through the sell and pre-sell deposits of their cars that are always delayed yet still continue to yield seemingly obscene stock valuation in comparison to the rest of the Auto manufacturers combined. From this POV the hype isn't so much from the cars, but rather the hype of them getting closer to disrupting all the peripheral Industries: they just got approval to provide auto insurance in more states in the US which if you've owned driven a Tesla in the Bay Area or LA it's a large expense of owning a Tesla because of how often they are vandalized or broken into. They are also able to offer more competitive rates based on actual driving metrics, which to me is an indication of where things have been going for some time in that Industry as cars became more like computers and is way more intrusive than what I can stomach. I still think the total Cybertruck deposits were more of a meme hyhypee and marketing ploy than an actual gauge or real projection of deliverable vehicles because the sum was so low ($100). They did however, get a massive boost to their stock price and an interest free loan they could leverage so it was a total win for Tesla. Aesthetically, it's very polarizing; I personally like it as it's Cyberpunk aesthetics are amusing to me, also the immense size of it is comical but then most 'heavy duty' trucks in the US all are. I still remember seeing lifted Fords, Dodges doing +100 MPH in Southern Texas while driving down to SpaceX's Starbase in Boca Chica and thinking how absurd those things were (seeing literal packs of automotive dinosaurs barreling down the freeway was insane) and then I saw that gas $0.99 and figured if you could align the right incentives the Cybertruck had a real shot take at taking significant part of the Market Share once oil prices reached a realistic value: how much of that market share is anyone guess. 0: https://archive.ph/LCxxO https://archive.ph/LCxxO
    - clouddrover 4y ago
- dieselgate 4y ago
  Agree completely. Until then it’s an ‘88 f250 (mostly running biodiesel) for me
  - chrisjc 4y ago
    As unlikely as it may be that that old diesel engine gives out, but if it does and if you love your '88 enough Ford sells an electric crate motor. https://accessories.ford.com/products/eluminator-mach-e-electric-motor https://accessories.ford.com/products/eluminator-mach-e-elec... (although heard it's out of stock and has and will be for a while) Looks incredible in the '78 F-100 they put together. MKBHD did a nice review of it too https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q72dA533sCg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q72dA533sCg For me, one of the most compelling reasons to choose the Lightning over the Cybertruck is the option ($4k+ wall-mounted thing) that allows it to power your home for 1-3 days in an emergency. But I imagine that since Tesla is already in the home-power business, a similar option for the Cybertruck won't be too far behind.
    - dieselgate 4y ago
      Whoah that is radical! Had no idea there was an oem e-motor thanks for sharing! My parents converted a Civic(?) to electric in the late 80s and the idea has always been in the back of my mind. But the main difference would be the f250 could carry much more battery weight! Moreover the wall adapter seems slick but I’m curious how many homes are even capable of handling that dc input, but I’m not much of electrician. Regardless seems like the grid may be making a pivot towards more DC capabilities in the future
- roflyear 4y ago
  Me too. Tesla truck is for people who need attention.
  - Andys 4y ago
    I hate that it is so attention-grabbing. Having a long life stainless steel body with low-maintenance motors, long distance battery pack, and fast charging, really appeals to the engineer in me.
  - qwerpy 4y ago
    Or, for people like me that really enjoy their current Tesla and would love to have the same thing but as a truck. I’m not an attention seeker, so I figure by the time they get down to my place in the reservation line it won’t be a remarkable sight anymore.
    - Teever 4y ago
      Given that the Tesla truck looks so radically different from current Tesla vehicles, and most vehicles in general can you be sure that you'll enjoy it for the same reasons that you enjoy your current Tesla?
  - osigurdson 4y ago
    Tesla truck is for people that want a Tesla truck. No need to psychoanalyze and try to establish motivation. People can buy whatever they want.
    - sunstone 4y ago
      Cybertruck was not love at first sight for me. But after 24 hrs I signed up because of the value. 4x4, adjustable suspension, locking bed, 240v, pneumatic air and much more for $50k. Plus the usual no gas bill and very low maintenance. It's a deal.
      - the_biot 4y ago
        But you're mistaken. The Cybertruck has none of those features, since it doesn't exist. It's entirely vaporware. When they start shipping them -- if that ever happens -- then you can list what features it has, and what they charge for them. But what you bought into, and paid your $100 reservation fee for, does not exist.
- Aleksdev 4y ago
  May I ask why? I just still have a hard time believing Ford is a serious player in the electric vehicle space.
  - danans 4y ago
    You don't turn your two most iconic brands/vehicles into EVs and reorganize the company into a separate EV company and a non EV company if you aren't serious about EVs. That's what Ford did. The companies that aren't serious about them today are Toyota, Honda, and Stellantis.
    - cellis 4y ago
      Also invested 500 million into Rivian.
      - chrisjc 4y ago
        but dwindling... https://www.detroitnews.com/story/business/autos/ford/2022/05/16/ford-unloads-another-7-million-shares-ev-startup-rivian/9794147002/ https://www.detroitnews.com/story/business/autos/ford/2022/0...
    - thawaya3113 4y ago
      And Toyota and Honda are interesting because they are Japanese companies who were pushed by the government to ignore EVs in favor of hydrogen vehicles. The reason was simple. Most of the politically powerful Japanese companies are huge conglomerates who make a lot of money in heavy industry areas where until a few years ago hydrogen was an obviously better choice than electric powered motors, which meant that there was a lot of pressure on the Japanese govt to put pressure on the car industry to align in the same direction.
      - danans 4y ago
        > The reason was simple. Most of the politically powerful Japanese companies are huge conglomerates who make a lot of money in heavy industry areas There is also the fact that both companies were early innovators in making gasoline engines much more efficient with things like (non plug-in) hybrid drivetrains, so they have an interest in pushing gas focused technology.
- MrMan 4y ago
  I will definitely be buying one of these, would never buy a Tesla due to quality and service concerns.
  - hotpotamus 4y ago
    Funny, but due to my Dad's experience with the 1988 F-150, no one in my (extended) family has even thought about buying a Ford.
    - tomatotomato37 4y ago
      Yeah, it's a shame the Tesla seems to be continuing the modern American car trend of lackluster reliability.
- zardo 4y ago
  Well if Ford is delivering vehicles, that's a big plus over the Cybertruck right now.
jdlshore 4y ago
The big question in my mind is whether Ford can deliver in volume. If Ford pulls this off, they’ll be one of the rare companies that has navigated the Innovator’s Dilemma (in the Christensen sense). One of the key features of the Innovator’s Dilemma is that existing middle management, customers, and supplier relationships lock you out of disruptive technologies. So far, Ford has talked a great game. I don’t think it’s the first truck that’s the challenge, though. The real challenge is doing so sustainably, at scale. I’m particularly curious about their ability to source sufficient battery packs. The article was paywalled for me, so I didn’t read it. Did it discuss any of these issues?
- chrisjc 4y ago
  > existing middle management, customers, and supplier relationships Not sure if dealerships falls into your list somehow, but I imagine they have to be one of the most challenging aspects of dealing with this distruption. You have hundreds/thousands of physical locations ready to distribute and sell your solution to this disruptive force, but with no incentive to do so. In fact every incentive not to: reoccurring income through maintenance drops-off significantly, tougher crackdown on mark-ups, EV savvy customers expecting no-haggle/direct-to-consumer experiences, etc... (I know Ford has really try to crack-down on these mark-ups, but dealers still manage to demand ridiculous prices for the Raptor, Bronco, Mustang and even the new Maverick) > The real challenge is doing so sustainably, at scale. I’m particularly curious about their ability to source sufficient battery packs. Same. I know there's all this talk about standing-up battery factories across the US, but they'll still be years behind China when they come online. Not to mention all these factories now have to be designed, financed and built in a time of some of the most significant inflation we've seen in generations. Not to mention the need for all the raw materials that the competition years ago secured for years to come. Tesla's decision and timeline (2-3 new factories in the last ~2 years, pre-pandemic, pre-2022-inflation) to scale up manufacturing was impeccable. Their foresight and decisiveness to secure access to raw materials, tooling (Panasonic, Grohmann, Hibar, Idra) and financing (stock, cheap Chinese loans, etc) are some of the reasons why I doubt any of the incumbents will be able to compete for a long time. And all of this is in the past or near to completion, while others are only now starting to do something about it after years of dismissing, ridiculing and underestimating the EV competition. While the competition worries about catching up, Tesla seems to already be thinking of what comes next and doing something about now. In my opinion the two most important Tesla products are the factories and the Tesla robot. It's encouraging to hear about incumbents like VW building up their own "giga-factories", but I feel like they've missed the point/opportunity when I hear about them building parts of the assembly line miles/countries away. I really like one of the principles of the giga-factory that is to measure the distance atoms have to travel from raw/semi-raw form to finished product, and minimize where possible. This is a core consideration when it comes to sustainability, scalability, dependability, stability, etc... It's also been interesting to hear about how Tesla has been able to adapt their assembly-lines to deal with the chaos and uncertainty that exists in the supply-chains they still depend on. In order to mitigate the existing and future labor shortages (or the price of providing individuals with a livable income, however you want to view it) companies mostly have two options: outsource and/or automate. When it comes to automation, I think Tesla is not only preparing themselves with a solution to reduce the repetitive, dangerous, undesirable parts of manual labor, but also a solution for their competition and the rest of us. I guess a third is self-driving... but I think that's really just a manifestation of something larger and can probably be rolled in as part of the Tesla Robot development... AI/ML and Dojo. All of that computer vision, training, learning, modeling, etc... that goes into the development of self-driving is going pay-off in another ways for Tesla. It will be needed for humanoid robots as well as other robots that can be designed and built to work as part of the factory. Do we expect the incumbents to put as much effort into developing their own robotics/AI solutions, or will they just end up leveraging other solutions and companies like Boston Dynamics, Grohmann (oh wait!), AWS, Nvidia, etc? Or perhaps they'll have no choice but to go to Tesla for robots or Dojo. yeah, yeah, yeah, i know, i sound like a fanboi. I am.
osigurdson 4y ago
Cybertruck has 500 miles of range vs 320 on the F-150. That would seal the deal for me even though I would prefer a more traditional looking vehicle.
- Commodore63 4y ago
  Have we seen anything besides prototypes of the Cybertruck?
- alar44 4y ago
  The other thing to consider a out the F-150 is that it exists.
  - osigurdson 4y ago
    That is a fair comment.
- Andys 4y ago
  Additionally the F150 only appears to charge at about 150kW max, which is somewhat slow for a >=100kWh battery, and I imagine the Cybertruck will beat that.
- thawaya3113 4y ago
  Cyber truck has 0 miles of range vs 320 on the F-150 because it doesn’t exist yet. Remember how the presenter was able to destroy its windows while demonstrating how it would protect you from zombies? The fact that they decided to promote cyber truck as protecting from Zombies says more about Tesla and its fanbois than anything else.
  - panick21_ 4y ago
    Comments like this really make me questions peoples just hate Musk so much that their dont want to apply even basic logic. When the window im the presentation split, the ball didnt go in and would not have hurt the driver. Seems to me that is the important part. Go and try throwing large metal ball against the glass of your F-150 and see how well the driver would be doing. I would trade my live for a borken window. Not to mention that they showed videos from backstage where the threw the ball at the door and it didn't crack. Also its clearly not about zombies, debris hitting the glass is a real problem, both on the highway or offroading. Not to mention people smashing windows to steal shit. So clearly this is a useful feature. And in terms of diliveries, it does matter who produces the first 1. It matter who manages to produce 300k or even 500k a year first. And Ford position on battery supply chain is way, way worse and the F-150 needs huge batteries. Unlike Ford Tesla has actually proven the ability to produce 300k BEV a year. Ford has not even produced 300k a year BEV let alone of 1 model that uses 2x as much battery then a normal car. It was only like 1-2 ago when the CEO of Ford said batteries were a non issue and plently were available on the open market. Since then they have realized how dumb that is and actually have made a partnership with a battery company. But they were way late on that and it will hurt their volume.
drumhead 4y ago
Ten years from now I think Tesla will be more of an IP and parts company. I think the big autos distribution, manufacturing and marketing capacity will start to overwhelm Tesla. It'll probably end up making its money licensing it's tech and making specialised parts for the rest of the industry.
- thawaya3113 4y ago
  Is their IP really that strong? I think the supercharger network might be a significant asset, but I’m not sure what about their IP is so unique. Tesla’s self driving efforts have still not recovered to the point they were about 5-6 years ago when they were forced to get rid of the 3rd party IP they were using. Their batteries are Panasonic. What else do they have? A performance mode that goes to 11?
  - panick21_ 4y ago
    So much wrong with this comment. Their drive assistence is way better then the 3rd party system was back then. Their batteries are from panasonic, LG and CATL. In fact they are top costumers of each. And they also make their own batteries as well. Have you not updated your views from 2015? And cells are just one part, the integrated battery system is another and Tesla is very innovative there. That said they would not sell IP or parts.
- MafellUser 4y ago
  That goes against Tesla's original mission statements: https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/blog/all-our-patent-are-belong-you https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/blog/all-our-patent-are-belong-y... But who knows, 2014 Elon and 2022 Elon seem like two completely different persons.
- bin_bash 4y ago
  Don’t they open source all of their patents?
- panick21_ 4y ago
  People have been saying that for 15 years straight and its still totally wrong. Its the exact opposite direction Tesla has gone in. Like literally the opposite. And your are fooling yourself if you think non-Tesla companies have some magical manufacturing capacity. On an individual factory level, Tesla already makes some of the most effective factories. Given their growth they are no longer a small fish, within a year or two from now they will be one of the like Top-8 automotive groups im the world. And even if you assume the other manufacturing/markating maschines, are so good (they are not), the supplychain is not actually their for the kind of massive overtake of Tesla you imagine. Ever BEV company is only slowly growing their volume, even VW with massive investment and huge existing manufacturing can not just make millions of BEV from.1 year to another. Let alone companies like Ford, BMW and so on.
thawaya3113 4y ago
Tesla’s biggest advantage is that being a newcomer, they don’t have any dealers, which means they can sell direct to the consumer. How the traditional car companies who are legally prevented from selling directly to the consumer and therefore have a legally imposed 10-15% cost will compete will be an interesting question.
- breadloaf 4y ago
  Which then comes back and bites Tesla in the butt, when it is time for service or maintenance.
  - MrMan 4y ago
    yes dealer comes in very handy when I want to not have my car taken on a trailer for 3 weeks. I watched my co-workers proudly saying good-bye to their Teslas for long periods of time while my Chevy Bolt never ever went to the shop and when it did it was out in an hour or so. My co-workers were so excited that Tesla came and took their cars away for a few weeks, it made them feel special.
  - Melting_Harps 4y ago
    > Which then comes back and bites Tesla in the butt, when it is time for service or maintenance. You'd think so, but since customer retention seems to be brand loyalty based more than actual car experience it doesn't seem to pan out that way; also the OTA updates are an interesting way of getting around those issues. Rentals are easier when you own a large fleet of them in any given state/city as opposed to relying on the 2-3 courtesy cars a dealrship may have. As a logistics guy I've had to prep Certified Pre-owned for VW to give to buyers when we had the Diesel gate issue because I was a former tech and we had an influx of demand by people buying models/specs that were not in stock. They gave us their Tdi, VW/BOSCH gave them a check and they turned around and put a down payment on a Golf GTI/R, e-GOlf, or Wolfsburg model that took a week to deliver. What I saw more than anything over the years was supply/parts shortage encumbering Tesla mobile mechanics and body shops alike from fulfilling ROs. This could be anything from a windshield, bumper, or something more vital like a drive motor. Incidentally, the major dealership mechanics were always in short supply due to the churn of the Industry (low pay and high barrier of entry and pay to play pay models) but was made even worse after COVID [0], couple this with shortages in the Global Supply Chain and dependencies on external manufacturers for ROs and things get less likely for that to occur. Tesla has always been bad at stocking parts, but larger show rooms also function as repair bays. It's all crazy to deviate from 'what normally works' until supply chain shortages become the norm, which is something we've all been saying in that Industry was looming the entire time.
foxes 4y ago
Replacing everyone's car => electric car is not the solution. Car ownership needs to plummet.
- wojciii 4y ago
  Not everyone lives in a city or near a bike path one can bike on to work/school/kindergarten. Not everyone lives close to public transportation.. So now you want me to not to use a car? I can't bike 60 km to work on public roads.
  - Gigachad 4y ago
    Car ownership plummeting doesn't mean that every single person needs to stop driving, for those in edge cases, they would continue. And the aim would be that almost everyone is brought within range of public transport and better walking/cycling options.
  - foxes 4y ago
    Where did I mention everyone? Why are you so immediately on the defensive? Maybe if it is not possible for your particular special unique circumstances you have a reasonable exemption. A lot of people however live in cities and don't really need a car, or alternatively need to use it daily. Maybe a car curfew should come first.
    - wojciii 4y ago
      You didn't mention everyone. :) I'm on the defensive because in my country it's usually the politicians living in big cities that tax car ownership based on their own use case - which is being able to bike everywhere and delivering their kids to school using a cargo bike.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- panick21_ 4y ago
  Yes but individual companies can't magically fix a countires whole attitude to city planning, biking and public transport. People are gone us cars, and making them elelectric is hugly beneficial.
carlsborg 4y ago
Ford has been EUs top selling plugin for the last 2 years. Their electric transmission is mature now.
MafellUser 4y ago
In Europe Ford has plans for an electric Transit with a 230 mile range. Having driven both types of vehicle I don't fully understand American's obsession with the pickups. For the same amount of footprint the Transit holds more stuff in a more secure manner, just a much more practical drive. Is off-roading that important?
- manfre 4y ago
  Trucks isolate the cargo from the cab and offer soft limits to the maximum size of the items you can transport. For most people, a transit is probably the better choice, but it's not as flexible as a truck with how it can be used.
- NDizzle 4y ago
  Have you ever put a hay bale in a transit? Pulled a fifth wheel trailer? Moved filthy equipment? I don’t think most people understand the use cases.
  - MafellUser 4y ago
    No, but I don't know what percentage of pickup owners have to do those things often enough to justify owning a pickup. On the other, my tool van is my mobile workshop. Tool banks on the sides, workspace and storage in the middle. If I need to haul a bale, I'd just hook up a 500kg trailer. I'd argue that most van drivers take full advantage of the van, while truck drivers only do so infrequently, and having a truck just because they can.
  - solarkraft 4y ago
    How many people have done that in a pick-up? How many people have never transported anything in the back of their pick-up? I've barely ever seen one carrying anything.
jiveturkey42 4y ago
I don't know how many HN deal with the construction trade, but electric trucks are going to be game-changers for tradesmen, plumbers, electricians, etc. Most hand tools are battery-powered now and being able to charge them on an unpowered job site without hauling a generator is a huge time and space saver
- the_biot 4y ago
  Spare batteries go for peanuts. The fact that you can charge one off of your truck, which then loses the corresponding charge, is entirely irrelevant. At best it's a silly sales pitch for something you'll never use, like that Rivian camping kitchen thing.

61 points by IdEntities 4y ago

Hi - I am the owner of this F-150 Lightning! Happy to answer any questions. I am blogging about it at https://geekyschmidt.com https://geekyschmidt.com

ChristianGeek 4y ago

To be honest, I’d buy the Ford over the Tesla in a heartbeat if I was in the market (and had the budget) for an electric truck.

quantified 4y ago
Ford does not need to iterate and refine its way to a truck that is suitable for real work, they've had that down for a long time. Plus they have a massive network. Tesla can certainly get a hold in the pickup market but man do they have one ugly truck.
- dieselgate 4y ago
  It seems to me the electric f150 and Tesla truck will appeal to very different consumer demographics. I anticipate the e-f150 will not purely be considered a consumer vehicle just because it has so much fleet potential. Curious what it will mean for Rivian, their trucks look slick but not sure how much runway/room for error the company has.
- edmundsauto 4y ago
  I actually like their truck aesthetic, but I have no confidence in the fit and finish, nor ownership dimensions. I am optimizing for the bottom 20% of ownership experiences - if it breaks, has issues, etc - my money is on a traditional car company. It also makes me feel good to not support the Elon machine.
  - oneoff786 4y ago
    I’m not sure it’s a safe bet that traditional car company repair options will work well for new electric vehicles. It remains to be tested for sure. Edit: in some ways the traditional repair shops could be a liability if they’re slow to adapt
    - evgen 4y ago
      In this case it is likely that the local repair shop will have some ability to source/replace a lot of parts that are common across the F series, which should cover a lot of repair jobs. For complicated electrical/drivetrain issues they can push the job up the chain to either a dealership or a more specialised part of the Ford repair network and over time the capability to perform those repairs will start to filter out to the edges of the network. By the time Ford is pushing EVs hard it is quite likely that their existing network will be ready to provide the sort of repair and support services that Tesla is famous for failing at.
      - oneoff786 4y ago
        Maybe. I would wait a good while before making a major purchase like this from either brand on such a new product line.
- Melting_Harps 4y ago
  > Ford does not need to iterate and refine its way to a truck that is suitable for real work, they've had that down for a long time. Plus they have a massive network. You're missing the biggest obstacle here after manufacturing, charging is incredibly difficult in many cases entirely impossible due to a lack maintenance on 3rd party charging stations. Here is a Bloomberg article outlining what happens more often than not due to this [0]. After many years working for Japanese and German auto manufacturers this exactly why I argue Tesla isn't really a car company, they seem to be more of an energy and software company using cars that utilize their energy grid and technology. What they've done under people's noses is to offset the costs of creating an ever-expanding charging network through the sell and pre-sell deposits of their cars that are always delayed yet still continue to yield seemingly obscene stock valuation in comparison to the rest of the Auto manufacturers combined. From this POV the hype isn't so much from the cars, but rather the hype of them getting closer to disrupting all the peripheral Industries: they just got approval to provide auto insurance in more states in the US which if you've owned driven a Tesla in the Bay Area or LA it's a large expense of owning a Tesla because of how often they are vandalized or broken into. They are also able to offer more competitive rates based on actual driving metrics, which to me is an indication of where things have been going for some time in that Industry as cars became more like computers and is way more intrusive than what I can stomach. I still think the total Cybertruck deposits were more of a meme hyhypee and marketing ploy than an actual gauge or real projection of deliverable vehicles because the sum was so low ($100). They did however, get a massive boost to their stock price and an interest free loan they could leverage so it was a total win for Tesla. Aesthetically, it's very polarizing; I personally like it as it's Cyberpunk aesthetics are amusing to me, also the immense size of it is comical but then most 'heavy duty' trucks in the US all are. I still remember seeing lifted Fords, Dodges doing +100 MPH in Southern Texas while driving down to SpaceX's Starbase in Boca Chica and thinking how absurd those things were (seeing literal packs of automotive dinosaurs barreling down the freeway was insane) and then I saw that gas $0.99 and figured if you could align the right incentives the Cybertruck had a real shot take at taking significant part of the Market Share once oil prices reached a realistic value: how much of that market share is anyone guess. 0: https://archive.ph/LCxxO https://archive.ph/LCxxO
  - clouddrover 4y ago
dieselgate 4y ago
Agree completely. Until then it’s an ‘88 f250 (mostly running biodiesel) for me
- chrisjc 4y ago
  As unlikely as it may be that that old diesel engine gives out, but if it does and if you love your '88 enough Ford sells an electric crate motor. https://accessories.ford.com/products/eluminator-mach-e-electric-motor https://accessories.ford.com/products/eluminator-mach-e-elec... (although heard it's out of stock and has and will be for a while) Looks incredible in the '78 F-100 they put together. MKBHD did a nice review of it too https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q72dA533sCg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q72dA533sCg For me, one of the most compelling reasons to choose the Lightning over the Cybertruck is the option ($4k+ wall-mounted thing) that allows it to power your home for 1-3 days in an emergency. But I imagine that since Tesla is already in the home-power business, a similar option for the Cybertruck won't be too far behind.
  - dieselgate 4y ago
    Whoah that is radical! Had no idea there was an oem e-motor thanks for sharing! My parents converted a Civic(?) to electric in the late 80s and the idea has always been in the back of my mind. But the main difference would be the f250 could carry much more battery weight! Moreover the wall adapter seems slick but I’m curious how many homes are even capable of handling that dc input, but I’m not much of electrician. Regardless seems like the grid may be making a pivot towards more DC capabilities in the future
roflyear 4y ago
Me too. Tesla truck is for people who need attention.
- Andys 4y ago
  I hate that it is so attention-grabbing. Having a long life stainless steel body with low-maintenance motors, long distance battery pack, and fast charging, really appeals to the engineer in me.
- qwerpy 4y ago
  Or, for people like me that really enjoy their current Tesla and would love to have the same thing but as a truck. I’m not an attention seeker, so I figure by the time they get down to my place in the reservation line it won’t be a remarkable sight anymore.
  - Teever 4y ago
    Given that the Tesla truck looks so radically different from current Tesla vehicles, and most vehicles in general can you be sure that you'll enjoy it for the same reasons that you enjoy your current Tesla?
- osigurdson 4y ago
  Tesla truck is for people that want a Tesla truck. No need to psychoanalyze and try to establish motivation. People can buy whatever they want.
  - sunstone 4y ago
    Cybertruck was not love at first sight for me. But after 24 hrs I signed up because of the value. 4x4, adjustable suspension, locking bed, 240v, pneumatic air and much more for $50k. Plus the usual no gas bill and very low maintenance. It's a deal.
    - the_biot 4y ago
      But you're mistaken. The Cybertruck has none of those features, since it doesn't exist. It's entirely vaporware. When they start shipping them -- if that ever happens -- then you can list what features it has, and what they charge for them. But what you bought into, and paid your $100 reservation fee for, does not exist.
Aleksdev 4y ago
May I ask why? I just still have a hard time believing Ford is a serious player in the electric vehicle space.
- danans 4y ago
  You don't turn your two most iconic brands/vehicles into EVs and reorganize the company into a separate EV company and a non EV company if you aren't serious about EVs. That's what Ford did. The companies that aren't serious about them today are Toyota, Honda, and Stellantis.
  - cellis 4y ago
    Also invested 500 million into Rivian.
    - chrisjc 4y ago
      but dwindling... https://www.detroitnews.com/story/business/autos/ford/2022/05/16/ford-unloads-another-7-million-shares-ev-startup-rivian/9794147002/ https://www.detroitnews.com/story/business/autos/ford/2022/0...
  - thawaya3113 4y ago
    And Toyota and Honda are interesting because they are Japanese companies who were pushed by the government to ignore EVs in favor of hydrogen vehicles. The reason was simple. Most of the politically powerful Japanese companies are huge conglomerates who make a lot of money in heavy industry areas where until a few years ago hydrogen was an obviously better choice than electric powered motors, which meant that there was a lot of pressure on the Japanese govt to put pressure on the car industry to align in the same direction.
    - danans 4y ago
      > The reason was simple. Most of the politically powerful Japanese companies are huge conglomerates who make a lot of money in heavy industry areas There is also the fact that both companies were early innovators in making gasoline engines much more efficient with things like (non plug-in) hybrid drivetrains, so they have an interest in pushing gas focused technology.
MrMan 4y ago
I will definitely be buying one of these, would never buy a Tesla due to quality and service concerns.
- hotpotamus 4y ago
  Funny, but due to my Dad's experience with the 1988 F-150, no one in my (extended) family has even thought about buying a Ford.
  - tomatotomato37 4y ago
    Yeah, it's a shame the Tesla seems to be continuing the modern American car trend of lackluster reliability.
zardo 4y ago
Well if Ford is delivering vehicles, that's a big plus over the Cybertruck right now.

jdlshore 4y ago

The big question in my mind is whether Ford can deliver in volume. If Ford pulls this off, they’ll be one of the rare companies that has navigated the Innovator’s Dilemma (in the Christensen sense). One of the key features of the Innovator’s Dilemma is that existing middle management, customers, and supplier relationships lock you out of disruptive technologies. So far, Ford has talked a great game. I don’t think it’s the first truck that’s the challenge, though. The real challenge is doing so sustainably, at scale. I’m particularly curious about their ability to source sufficient battery packs. The article was paywalled for me, so I didn’t read it. Did it discuss any of these issues?

chrisjc 4y ago
> existing middle management, customers, and supplier relationships Not sure if dealerships falls into your list somehow, but I imagine they have to be one of the most challenging aspects of dealing with this distruption. You have hundreds/thousands of physical locations ready to distribute and sell your solution to this disruptive force, but with no incentive to do so. In fact every incentive not to: reoccurring income through maintenance drops-off significantly, tougher crackdown on mark-ups, EV savvy customers expecting no-haggle/direct-to-consumer experiences, etc... (I know Ford has really try to crack-down on these mark-ups, but dealers still manage to demand ridiculous prices for the Raptor, Bronco, Mustang and even the new Maverick) > The real challenge is doing so sustainably, at scale. I’m particularly curious about their ability to source sufficient battery packs. Same. I know there's all this talk about standing-up battery factories across the US, but they'll still be years behind China when they come online. Not to mention all these factories now have to be designed, financed and built in a time of some of the most significant inflation we've seen in generations. Not to mention the need for all the raw materials that the competition years ago secured for years to come. Tesla's decision and timeline (2-3 new factories in the last ~2 years, pre-pandemic, pre-2022-inflation) to scale up manufacturing was impeccable. Their foresight and decisiveness to secure access to raw materials, tooling (Panasonic, Grohmann, Hibar, Idra) and financing (stock, cheap Chinese loans, etc) are some of the reasons why I doubt any of the incumbents will be able to compete for a long time. And all of this is in the past or near to completion, while others are only now starting to do something about it after years of dismissing, ridiculing and underestimating the EV competition. While the competition worries about catching up, Tesla seems to already be thinking of what comes next and doing something about now. In my opinion the two most important Tesla products are the factories and the Tesla robot. It's encouraging to hear about incumbents like VW building up their own "giga-factories", but I feel like they've missed the point/opportunity when I hear about them building parts of the assembly line miles/countries away. I really like one of the principles of the giga-factory that is to measure the distance atoms have to travel from raw/semi-raw form to finished product, and minimize where possible. This is a core consideration when it comes to sustainability, scalability, dependability, stability, etc... It's also been interesting to hear about how Tesla has been able to adapt their assembly-lines to deal with the chaos and uncertainty that exists in the supply-chains they still depend on. In order to mitigate the existing and future labor shortages (or the price of providing individuals with a livable income, however you want to view it) companies mostly have two options: outsource and/or automate. When it comes to automation, I think Tesla is not only preparing themselves with a solution to reduce the repetitive, dangerous, undesirable parts of manual labor, but also a solution for their competition and the rest of us. I guess a third is self-driving... but I think that's really just a manifestation of something larger and can probably be rolled in as part of the Tesla Robot development... AI/ML and Dojo. All of that computer vision, training, learning, modeling, etc... that goes into the development of self-driving is going pay-off in another ways for Tesla. It will be needed for humanoid robots as well as other robots that can be designed and built to work as part of the factory. Do we expect the incumbents to put as much effort into developing their own robotics/AI solutions, or will they just end up leveraging other solutions and companies like Boston Dynamics, Grohmann (oh wait!), AWS, Nvidia, etc? Or perhaps they'll have no choice but to go to Tesla for robots or Dojo. yeah, yeah, yeah, i know, i sound like a fanboi. I am.

osigurdson 4y ago

Cybertruck has 500 miles of range vs 320 on the F-150. That would seal the deal for me even though I would prefer a more traditional looking vehicle.

Commodore63 4y ago
Have we seen anything besides prototypes of the Cybertruck?
alar44 4y ago
The other thing to consider a out the F-150 is that it exists.
- osigurdson 4y ago
  That is a fair comment.
Andys 4y ago
Additionally the F150 only appears to charge at about 150kW max, which is somewhat slow for a >=100kWh battery, and I imagine the Cybertruck will beat that.
thawaya3113 4y ago
Cyber truck has 0 miles of range vs 320 on the F-150 because it doesn’t exist yet. Remember how the presenter was able to destroy its windows while demonstrating how it would protect you from zombies? The fact that they decided to promote cyber truck as protecting from Zombies says more about Tesla and its fanbois than anything else.
- panick21_ 4y ago
  Comments like this really make me questions peoples just hate Musk so much that their dont want to apply even basic logic. When the window im the presentation split, the ball didnt go in and would not have hurt the driver. Seems to me that is the important part. Go and try throwing large metal ball against the glass of your F-150 and see how well the driver would be doing. I would trade my live for a borken window. Not to mention that they showed videos from backstage where the threw the ball at the door and it didn't crack. Also its clearly not about zombies, debris hitting the glass is a real problem, both on the highway or offroading. Not to mention people smashing windows to steal shit. So clearly this is a useful feature. And in terms of diliveries, it does matter who produces the first 1. It matter who manages to produce 300k or even 500k a year first. And Ford position on battery supply chain is way, way worse and the F-150 needs huge batteries. Unlike Ford Tesla has actually proven the ability to produce 300k BEV a year. Ford has not even produced 300k a year BEV let alone of 1 model that uses 2x as much battery then a normal car. It was only like 1-2 ago when the CEO of Ford said batteries were a non issue and plently were available on the open market. Since then they have realized how dumb that is and actually have made a partnership with a battery company. But they were way late on that and it will hurt their volume.

drumhead 4y ago

Ten years from now I think Tesla will be more of an IP and parts company. I think the big autos distribution, manufacturing and marketing capacity will start to overwhelm Tesla. It'll probably end up making its money licensing it's tech and making specialised parts for the rest of the industry.

thawaya3113 4y ago
Is their IP really that strong? I think the supercharger network might be a significant asset, but I’m not sure what about their IP is so unique. Tesla’s self driving efforts have still not recovered to the point they were about 5-6 years ago when they were forced to get rid of the 3rd party IP they were using. Their batteries are Panasonic. What else do they have? A performance mode that goes to 11?
- panick21_ 4y ago
  So much wrong with this comment. Their drive assistence is way better then the 3rd party system was back then. Their batteries are from panasonic, LG and CATL. In fact they are top costumers of each. And they also make their own batteries as well. Have you not updated your views from 2015? And cells are just one part, the integrated battery system is another and Tesla is very innovative there. That said they would not sell IP or parts.
MafellUser 4y ago
That goes against Tesla's original mission statements: https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/blog/all-our-patent-are-belong-you https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/blog/all-our-patent-are-belong-y... But who knows, 2014 Elon and 2022 Elon seem like two completely different persons.
bin_bash 4y ago
Don’t they open source all of their patents?
panick21_ 4y ago
People have been saying that for 15 years straight and its still totally wrong. Its the exact opposite direction Tesla has gone in. Like literally the opposite. And your are fooling yourself if you think non-Tesla companies have some magical manufacturing capacity. On an individual factory level, Tesla already makes some of the most effective factories. Given their growth they are no longer a small fish, within a year or two from now they will be one of the like Top-8 automotive groups im the world. And even if you assume the other manufacturing/markating maschines, are so good (they are not), the supplychain is not actually their for the kind of massive overtake of Tesla you imagine. Ever BEV company is only slowly growing their volume, even VW with massive investment and huge existing manufacturing can not just make millions of BEV from.1 year to another. Let alone companies like Ford, BMW and so on.

thawaya3113 4y ago

Tesla’s biggest advantage is that being a newcomer, they don’t have any dealers, which means they can sell direct to the consumer. How the traditional car companies who are legally prevented from selling directly to the consumer and therefore have a legally imposed 10-15% cost will compete will be an interesting question.

breadloaf 4y ago
Which then comes back and bites Tesla in the butt, when it is time for service or maintenance.
- MrMan 4y ago
  yes dealer comes in very handy when I want to not have my car taken on a trailer for 3 weeks. I watched my co-workers proudly saying good-bye to their Teslas for long periods of time while my Chevy Bolt never ever went to the shop and when it did it was out in an hour or so. My co-workers were so excited that Tesla came and took their cars away for a few weeks, it made them feel special.
- Melting_Harps 4y ago
  > Which then comes back and bites Tesla in the butt, when it is time for service or maintenance. You'd think so, but since customer retention seems to be brand loyalty based more than actual car experience it doesn't seem to pan out that way; also the OTA updates are an interesting way of getting around those issues. Rentals are easier when you own a large fleet of them in any given state/city as opposed to relying on the 2-3 courtesy cars a dealrship may have. As a logistics guy I've had to prep Certified Pre-owned for VW to give to buyers when we had the Diesel gate issue because I was a former tech and we had an influx of demand by people buying models/specs that were not in stock. They gave us their Tdi, VW/BOSCH gave them a check and they turned around and put a down payment on a Golf GTI/R, e-GOlf, or Wolfsburg model that took a week to deliver. What I saw more than anything over the years was supply/parts shortage encumbering Tesla mobile mechanics and body shops alike from fulfilling ROs. This could be anything from a windshield, bumper, or something more vital like a drive motor. Incidentally, the major dealership mechanics were always in short supply due to the churn of the Industry (low pay and high barrier of entry and pay to play pay models) but was made even worse after COVID [0], couple this with shortages in the Global Supply Chain and dependencies on external manufacturers for ROs and things get less likely for that to occur. Tesla has always been bad at stocking parts, but larger show rooms also function as repair bays. It's all crazy to deviate from 'what normally works' until supply chain shortages become the norm, which is something we've all been saying in that Industry was looming the entire time.

foxes 4y ago

Replacing everyone's car => electric car is not the solution. Car ownership needs to plummet.

wojciii 4y ago
Not everyone lives in a city or near a bike path one can bike on to work/school/kindergarten. Not everyone lives close to public transportation.. So now you want me to not to use a car? I can't bike 60 km to work on public roads.
- Gigachad 4y ago
  Car ownership plummeting doesn't mean that every single person needs to stop driving, for those in edge cases, they would continue. And the aim would be that almost everyone is brought within range of public transport and better walking/cycling options.
- foxes 4y ago
  Where did I mention everyone? Why are you so immediately on the defensive? Maybe if it is not possible for your particular special unique circumstances you have a reasonable exemption. A lot of people however live in cities and don't really need a car, or alternatively need to use it daily. Maybe a car curfew should come first.
  - wojciii 4y ago
    You didn't mention everyone. :) I'm on the defensive because in my country it's usually the politicians living in big cities that tax car ownership based on their own use case - which is being able to bike everywhere and delivering their kids to school using a cargo bike.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
panick21_ 4y ago
Yes but individual companies can't magically fix a countires whole attitude to city planning, biking and public transport. People are gone us cars, and making them elelectric is hugly beneficial.

carlsborg 4y ago

Ford has been EUs top selling plugin for the last 2 years. Their electric transmission is mature now.

MafellUser 4y ago

In Europe Ford has plans for an electric Transit with a 230 mile range. Having driven both types of vehicle I don't fully understand American's obsession with the pickups. For the same amount of footprint the Transit holds more stuff in a more secure manner, just a much more practical drive. Is off-roading that important?

manfre 4y ago
Trucks isolate the cargo from the cab and offer soft limits to the maximum size of the items you can transport. For most people, a transit is probably the better choice, but it's not as flexible as a truck with how it can be used.
NDizzle 4y ago
Have you ever put a hay bale in a transit? Pulled a fifth wheel trailer? Moved filthy equipment? I don’t think most people understand the use cases.
- MafellUser 4y ago
  No, but I don't know what percentage of pickup owners have to do those things often enough to justify owning a pickup. On the other, my tool van is my mobile workshop. Tool banks on the sides, workspace and storage in the middle. If I need to haul a bale, I'd just hook up a 500kg trailer. I'd argue that most van drivers take full advantage of the van, while truck drivers only do so infrequently, and having a truck just because they can.
- solarkraft 4y ago
  How many people have done that in a pick-up? How many people have never transported anything in the back of their pick-up? I've barely ever seen one carrying anything.

jiveturkey42 4y ago

I don't know how many HN deal with the construction trade, but electric trucks are going to be game-changers for tradesmen, plumbers, electricians, etc. Most hand tools are battery-powered now and being able to charge them on an unpowered job site without hauling a generator is a huge time and space saver

the_biot 4y ago
Spare batteries go for peanuts. The fact that you can charge one off of your truck, which then loses the corresponding charge, is entirely irrelevant. At best it's a silly sales pitch for something you'll never use, like that Rivian camping kitchen thing.