7 ms·

Great intro. One thing I don't understand about the mechanical keyboard community is how the vast majority (like well over 95%) are not split keyboards. You'd

Great intro. One thing I don't understand about the mechanical keyboard community is how the vast majority (like well over 95%) are not split keyboards. You'd think keyboard enthusiasts that sweat the details would also be obsessed with ergonomics. But no, I suspect that they are more concerned with aesthetics, which are arguably worse with a split keyboard.

creakingstairs 4y ago
I bought a split keyboard last year and I honestly don’t think I could go back. My shoulder/chest pain went away. The layers let me almost never leave the home row and I miss it every time I use my laptop keyboard. > I suspect that they are more concerned with aesthetics, which are arguably worse with a split keyboard. Yeah, mine has lots of wires and I miss the minimalistic aesthetic of wireless mini keyboards.
- hackernewds 4y ago
  Does it feel intuitive? I'm worried about learning a typing paradigm that isn't accessible everywhere (for eg can't hit both G and H with index if they're in diff sides)
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - creakingstairs 4y ago
    I’m guessing you mean that you tend to hit g and h with hands (eg hit g with right hand and hit h with left hand) and you can’t do that with split keyboard. It doesn’t take that long to get used to it. I still can type pretty well with my laptop keyboard so I wouldn’t worry about it too much.
    - iamevn 4y ago
      Usually it's the number row that gets me. I'm working on a keyboard that duplicates the inner columns for this reason.
- lawn 4y ago
  There are wireless split keyboards as well.
  - creakingstairs 4y ago
    I’m aware but I haven’t find my dream one yet. I think I’ll try to build my own split wireless keyboard one day.
- konfusinomicon 4y ago
  just got a moonlander and I too could never go back. worth the hype and the price..the learning curve was steep but after a month and several iterations of customization I cant believe that customizable split layout is not the norm.
- ryanchoi 4y ago
  If one isn’t afraid to tinker a little more while building keyboards one could work in a nice!nano or similar replacement for pro micros/elite-Cs, I had a fine time building a kyria (a 40% split) with it too: https://nicekeyboards.com/nice-nano/ https://nicekeyboards.com/nice-nano/ If you’re into low profile switches (that’s a big if!) there are projects the corneish zen https://lowprokb.ca/products/corne-ish-zen https://lowprokb.ca/products/corne-ish-zen
  - addy13 4y ago
    Can you replace any existing usb c ports with this? I have a planck that I would really like to make wireless but a quick search around google doesn't show anyone building one with it.
  - creakingstairs 4y ago
    Thanks for the links! I do wanna try out low profile switches. I wish there were something like corneish zen with a bit more keys :p
the_gipsy 4y ago
Many definitely are obsessed only with aesthetics, and it's especially sickening when you look at the subgroup of rare-overpriced keyboards. But split is not the single most important ergonomics aspect IMO. A planck-like ortholinear keeb is more ergonomic than those "alice" splits that have staggered-row-layout, for me at least.
- lfkdev 4y ago
  There is nothing sickening about people liking aesthetic keyboards.
- Veen 4y ago
  Sickening is an odd word to choose. People have aesthetic preferences about all sorts of things, and they're often prepared to pay more to satisfy their tastes. What's bad about that?
  - the_gipsy 4y ago
    Yeah sorry wrong wording, my bad. I only find the overpriced keyboard competition sickening. Obsession about aesthetics is completely healthy.
- CTDOCodebases 4y ago
  >But split is not the single most important ergonomics aspect IMO. A planck-like ortholinear keeb is more ergonomic than those "alice" splits that have staggered-row-layout, for me at least. It think it all depends on your typing style and body. The issue with standard boards and the planck is people typically type with their hands parallel or near parallel and their wrist are bent. This can cause wrist pain over time. On "alice" type boards the wrists are straight so typing is quite comfortable.
Symbiote 4y ago
I'm mostly-maintaining a mechanical split keyboard gallery [1] to help with this. There are a lot of options, from keyboards you can buy from a major retailer (or easily get your IT department to buy), to hand-soldered kits where you need to 3D print the case.- [1] https://aposymbiont.github.io/split-keyboards/ https://aposymbiont.github.io/split-keyboards/
- 0xCAP 4y ago
  I've always been interested in buying one, but since I'm curre tly budgeting for other major investments I'm not willing to spend like 350€+ for an ergodox. Are there decent sub 100€ non diy (i have never soldered anything in my life) split keyboards around afayk?
  - Symbiote 4y ago
    I don't think you'll find anything non-DIY for under €350. The cheapest options are probably the Chinese/AliExpress ortholinear ones[1], but even those still cost more. [1] http://www.koolertron.com/catalogsearch/result/?q=keyboard http://www.koolertron.com/catalogsearch/result/?q=keyboard
    - jjmiv 4y ago
      novelkeys has a LOT of great quality keyboards for under lower prices. I have the milkshake nk65 and it is awesome.
  - rgoulter 4y ago
    If your main concern about DIY keyboards is experience, most DIY split keyboards only require through-hole soldering, which is easily doable even with a cheap soldering iron. The Sofle keyboard is a popular split keyboard. https://github.com/josefadamcik/SofleKeyboard https://github.com/josefadamcik/SofleKeyboard I haven't checked, but I'd believe it's possible close to that budget. e.g. Keyhive have a DIY kit https://keyhive.xyz/shop/sofle https://keyhive.xyz/shop/sofle
  - noir_lord 4y ago
bobcostas55 4y ago
The price difference is pretty wild, hard to make an investment like that without being able to try it first.
- badlucklottery 4y ago
  Whenever the Kinesis Advantage 360 starts shipping, that might be a good option for trying out a split keyboard. They have 60 day returns and don't fight you on RMA at all: https://kinesis-ergo.com/support/returns/ https://kinesis-ergo.com/support/returns/
  - celrod 4y ago
    I am a big fan of the Kinesis Advantage 2's dished layout. I think that's a bigger deal for me than being split. The 2 unfortunately is not split, while the 360 is both split and dished. The thumb keys are also extremely important, but they're more common among ergo keyboards. I don't think I'd ever buy a keyboard without thumb keys. Thumb keys go great with emac's standard keybindings. I've spent too much money on keyboards already, but will very likely buy the 360. There are some DIY keyboards like the dactyl-manuform that also look great. Could be a fun project, but I'm not really looking for more side projects at the moment.
    - chevill 4y ago
      Having access to multiple keys per thumb really is a huge improvement over standard keyboards. They are pretty expensive, but you can get a custom Dactyl Manuform made for about $400-500. I think there are some cheaper ways to get one. I made my own and its the best keyboard I've ever used. Before that I was using a different split keyboard (the ergodox-ex) and it was pretty good but the Dactyl is near perfect. I just wish they were popular enough for a large manufacturer to start making some non-3d printed cases for them.
- CTDOCodebases 4y ago
  Keyboard meetups are common and give you the opportunity to try a whole range of boards.
nextlevelwizard 4y ago
>they are more concerned with aesthetics, Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner! Mechanical keyboard communities are 110% all about aesthetics. For most it is far more important how the keyboard looks than anything else, the comes how it feels and sounds and somewhere very far comes actual functionality and even further ergonomics. Obviously there is nothing wrong with this, but it makes sourcing split mechanical keyboards hard and expensive.
- samatman 4y ago
  Here's my objection to putting it this way, especially the hyperbolic 110% thing. With one exception, every split key you can buy or make right now is a product of the mechanical keyboard community's enthusiasm. I'm referring to the Kinesis Advantage of course, which is a wonderful device but not my choice. So yeah, there's a whole subsection in the hobby which makes like 30 key hello-kitty-themed clickbait (look maybe someone actually uses the really minimalist layouts but I roll to doubt), and I don't begrudge them at all, because it's the same hobby that develops things like the Dactyl Manuform, which is going to be my next keyboard some time after I get my filament printer set up in my new home. In other words, if you think sourcing split mechanical keyboards is hard now, you should have tried to do it before the mechanical keyboard hobby invented them.
  - nextlevelwizard 4y ago
    >With one exception, every split key you can buy or make right now is a product of the mechanical keyboard community's enthusiasm. Are you high? There are plenty of split keyboards that have nothing to do with mechanical keyboard community unless your think mechanical keyboard community has been active since the 1920s
- moondev 4y ago
  > Obviously there is nothing wrong with this, but it makes sourcing split mechanical keyboards hard and expensive. Wouldn't increased demand (regardless of purchase motive) increase supply and decrease the price?
Closi 4y ago
> I suspect that they are more concerned with aesthetics, which are arguably worse with a split keyboard. Undoubtedly many must be - although I personally really like the ability to take my keyboard easily with me in a bag, like working on a smaller keyboard to reduce finger travel, like how my mouse can be close to my keyboard and I can work in a small space, and I'm lucky enough to not really experience strain, so a 60% keyboard is perfect for me. Also, although this is aesthetic related, I don't really want to be the person with a keyboard that looks too crazy in the office. I don't need it to look awesome, but I also don't want it to look outwardly-weird (this also means no crazy flashing RGB!). Took a bit of time to get used to a 60%, but now I have finished the learning curve it would be really difficult to go back (muscle memory is both a blessing and a curse!).
NotOscarWilde 4y ago
When I started being into mechanical keyboards (19 years old, late 2000s), I learned about the "classics" first -- IBM Model M, Cherry G80 3000 -- and "hacker" successors later ("Das Keyboard" is a good example, although I never owned it). I was also quite into Vim, terminal and proper typing back then. It took me several more years to learn about ergonomic mechanical keyboards, and I ended up sticking with Ergodox both at work and at my gaming PC for 7-ish years now. The point of my anecdote is that I would just expect that most of the "visible" people in the mechanical keyboard community are younger, and might grow into the ergonomic keyboards later, just like me.
iyc_ 4y ago
That, and the missing meta/hyper key either on the left hand side of the spacebar, or close to the thumbs.
christophilus 4y ago
I used to use a split keyboard, but now use a tenkeyless Vermillo[0]. Best keyboard I’ve ever used. I find that form factor, paired with VIM gives my wrists less pain than any larger keyboard I’ve used. The distance I have to travel to use a mouse is also reduced, which I find helpful. [0] https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=4911 https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_det...
CTDOCodebases 4y ago
People don't like change and not everyone has noticeable issues typing on standard keyboards. Once you do make the switch though the benefits become obvious.
michaelbrave 4y ago
I'm also curious why there arne't more expiramental key layouts, for example having programming related keys like "()~!" on the number keys is kind of annoying, would love a redesign where they are on the left instead of say caps lock or a longer shift key.
- kixiQu 4y ago
  There are tons of people who tweak their layouts a bunch -- but because it's free to switch that up and do your own experimentation, writing about your layout isn't as useful to other people as reviewing things they are considering paying for.
- ProZsolt 4y ago
  I went with a 36 key Corne keyboard[0] with a modified Miryoku[1] layout. In this way every symbol is near the home row [0]: https://github.com/foostan/crkbd https://github.com/foostan/crkbd [1]: https://github.com/manna-harbour/miryoku https://github.com/manna-harbour/miryoku
- CTDOCodebases 4y ago
  Using the open source firmware (QMK) that comes with most custom keyboard PCBs you can set keys to act as modifier keys when held or tapped. I set my capslock up like this so that when I hold it down h,j,k,l become my arrow keys and y and o become my home and end keys respectively. Some PCBs support a split space bar too so if you tend to hit space with one hand the other can be used for a modifier and the home row can house all your commonly typed symbols which are normally out of reach.
eyelidlessness 4y ago
I don’t begrudge anyone their preferred ergonomics, but I’m glad that I can find non-split mechanical keyboards as I prefer their ergonomics. But I agree, it’s surprising there aren’t many more split offerings available. As far as aesthetics, as the mechanical keyboard market has become almost totally focused on gaming, I find it difficult to find any which aren’t gaudy. I’m just glad my current one allows turning off the blinding backlight.

creakingstairs 4y ago

I bought a split keyboard last year and I honestly don’t think I could go back. My shoulder/chest pain went away. The layers let me almost never leave the home row and I miss it every time I use my laptop keyboard. > I suspect that they are more concerned with aesthetics, which are arguably worse with a split keyboard. Yeah, mine has lots of wires and I miss the minimalistic aesthetic of wireless mini keyboards.

hackernewds 4y ago
Does it feel intuitive? I'm worried about learning a typing paradigm that isn't accessible everywhere (for eg can't hit both G and H with index if they're in diff sides)
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- creakingstairs 4y ago
  I’m guessing you mean that you tend to hit g and h with hands (eg hit g with right hand and hit h with left hand) and you can’t do that with split keyboard. It doesn’t take that long to get used to it. I still can type pretty well with my laptop keyboard so I wouldn’t worry about it too much.
  - iamevn 4y ago
    Usually it's the number row that gets me. I'm working on a keyboard that duplicates the inner columns for this reason.
lawn 4y ago
There are wireless split keyboards as well.
- creakingstairs 4y ago
  I’m aware but I haven’t find my dream one yet. I think I’ll try to build my own split wireless keyboard one day.
konfusinomicon 4y ago
just got a moonlander and I too could never go back. worth the hype and the price..the learning curve was steep but after a month and several iterations of customization I cant believe that customizable split layout is not the norm.
ryanchoi 4y ago
If one isn’t afraid to tinker a little more while building keyboards one could work in a nice!nano or similar replacement for pro micros/elite-Cs, I had a fine time building a kyria (a 40% split) with it too: https://nicekeyboards.com/nice-nano/ https://nicekeyboards.com/nice-nano/ If you’re into low profile switches (that’s a big if!) there are projects the corneish zen https://lowprokb.ca/products/corne-ish-zen https://lowprokb.ca/products/corne-ish-zen
- addy13 4y ago
  Can you replace any existing usb c ports with this? I have a planck that I would really like to make wireless but a quick search around google doesn't show anyone building one with it.
- creakingstairs 4y ago
  Thanks for the links! I do wanna try out low profile switches. I wish there were something like corneish zen with a bit more keys :p

the_gipsy 4y ago

Many definitely are obsessed only with aesthetics, and it's especially sickening when you look at the subgroup of rare-overpriced keyboards. But split is not the single most important ergonomics aspect IMO. A planck-like ortholinear keeb is more ergonomic than those "alice" splits that have staggered-row-layout, for me at least.

lfkdev 4y ago
There is nothing sickening about people liking aesthetic keyboards.
Veen 4y ago
Sickening is an odd word to choose. People have aesthetic preferences about all sorts of things, and they're often prepared to pay more to satisfy their tastes. What's bad about that?
- the_gipsy 4y ago
  Yeah sorry wrong wording, my bad. I only find the overpriced keyboard competition sickening. Obsession about aesthetics is completely healthy.
CTDOCodebases 4y ago
>But split is not the single most important ergonomics aspect IMO. A planck-like ortholinear keeb is more ergonomic than those "alice" splits that have staggered-row-layout, for me at least. It think it all depends on your typing style and body. The issue with standard boards and the planck is people typically type with their hands parallel or near parallel and their wrist are bent. This can cause wrist pain over time. On "alice" type boards the wrists are straight so typing is quite comfortable.

Symbiote 4y ago

I'm mostly-maintaining a mechanical split keyboard gallery [1] to help with this. There are a lot of options, from keyboards you can buy from a major retailer (or easily get your IT department to buy), to hand-soldered kits where you need to 3D print the case.- [1] https://aposymbiont.github.io/split-keyboards/ https://aposymbiont.github.io/split-keyboards/

0xCAP 4y ago
I've always been interested in buying one, but since I'm curre tly budgeting for other major investments I'm not willing to spend like 350€+ for an ergodox. Are there decent sub 100€ non diy (i have never soldered anything in my life) split keyboards around afayk?
- Symbiote 4y ago
  I don't think you'll find anything non-DIY for under €350. The cheapest options are probably the Chinese/AliExpress ortholinear ones[1], but even those still cost more. [1] http://www.koolertron.com/catalogsearch/result/?q=keyboard http://www.koolertron.com/catalogsearch/result/?q=keyboard
  - jjmiv 4y ago
    novelkeys has a LOT of great quality keyboards for under lower prices. I have the milkshake nk65 and it is awesome.
- rgoulter 4y ago
  If your main concern about DIY keyboards is experience, most DIY split keyboards only require through-hole soldering, which is easily doable even with a cheap soldering iron. The Sofle keyboard is a popular split keyboard. https://github.com/josefadamcik/SofleKeyboard https://github.com/josefadamcik/SofleKeyboard I haven't checked, but I'd believe it's possible close to that budget. e.g. Keyhive have a DIY kit https://keyhive.xyz/shop/sofle https://keyhive.xyz/shop/sofle
- noir_lord 4y ago

bobcostas55 4y ago

The price difference is pretty wild, hard to make an investment like that without being able to try it first.

badlucklottery 4y ago
Whenever the Kinesis Advantage 360 starts shipping, that might be a good option for trying out a split keyboard. They have 60 day returns and don't fight you on RMA at all: https://kinesis-ergo.com/support/returns/ https://kinesis-ergo.com/support/returns/
- celrod 4y ago
  I am a big fan of the Kinesis Advantage 2's dished layout. I think that's a bigger deal for me than being split. The 2 unfortunately is not split, while the 360 is both split and dished. The thumb keys are also extremely important, but they're more common among ergo keyboards. I don't think I'd ever buy a keyboard without thumb keys. Thumb keys go great with emac's standard keybindings. I've spent too much money on keyboards already, but will very likely buy the 360. There are some DIY keyboards like the dactyl-manuform that also look great. Could be a fun project, but I'm not really looking for more side projects at the moment.
  - chevill 4y ago
    Having access to multiple keys per thumb really is a huge improvement over standard keyboards. They are pretty expensive, but you can get a custom Dactyl Manuform made for about $400-500. I think there are some cheaper ways to get one. I made my own and its the best keyboard I've ever used. Before that I was using a different split keyboard (the ergodox-ex) and it was pretty good but the Dactyl is near perfect. I just wish they were popular enough for a large manufacturer to start making some non-3d printed cases for them.
CTDOCodebases 4y ago
Keyboard meetups are common and give you the opportunity to try a whole range of boards.

nextlevelwizard 4y ago

>they are more concerned with aesthetics, Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner! Mechanical keyboard communities are 110% all about aesthetics. For most it is far more important how the keyboard looks than anything else, the comes how it feels and sounds and somewhere very far comes actual functionality and even further ergonomics. Obviously there is nothing wrong with this, but it makes sourcing split mechanical keyboards hard and expensive.

samatman 4y ago
Here's my objection to putting it this way, especially the hyperbolic 110% thing. With one exception, every split key you can buy or make right now is a product of the mechanical keyboard community's enthusiasm. I'm referring to the Kinesis Advantage of course, which is a wonderful device but not my choice. So yeah, there's a whole subsection in the hobby which makes like 30 key hello-kitty-themed clickbait (look maybe someone actually uses the really minimalist layouts but I roll to doubt), and I don't begrudge them at all, because it's the same hobby that develops things like the Dactyl Manuform, which is going to be my next keyboard some time after I get my filament printer set up in my new home. In other words, if you think sourcing split mechanical keyboards is hard now, you should have tried to do it before the mechanical keyboard hobby invented them.
- nextlevelwizard 4y ago
  >With one exception, every split key you can buy or make right now is a product of the mechanical keyboard community's enthusiasm. Are you high? There are plenty of split keyboards that have nothing to do with mechanical keyboard community unless your think mechanical keyboard community has been active since the 1920s
moondev 4y ago
> Obviously there is nothing wrong with this, but it makes sourcing split mechanical keyboards hard and expensive. Wouldn't increased demand (regardless of purchase motive) increase supply and decrease the price?

Closi 4y ago

> I suspect that they are more concerned with aesthetics, which are arguably worse with a split keyboard. Undoubtedly many must be - although I personally really like the ability to take my keyboard easily with me in a bag, like working on a smaller keyboard to reduce finger travel, like how my mouse can be close to my keyboard and I can work in a small space, and I'm lucky enough to not really experience strain, so a 60% keyboard is perfect for me. Also, although this is aesthetic related, I don't really want to be the person with a keyboard that looks too crazy in the office. I don't need it to look awesome, but I also don't want it to look outwardly-weird (this also means no crazy flashing RGB!). Took a bit of time to get used to a 60%, but now I have finished the learning curve it would be really difficult to go back (muscle memory is both a blessing and a curse!).

NotOscarWilde 4y ago

When I started being into mechanical keyboards (19 years old, late 2000s), I learned about the "classics" first -- IBM Model M, Cherry G80 3000 -- and "hacker" successors later ("Das Keyboard" is a good example, although I never owned it). I was also quite into Vim, terminal and proper typing back then. It took me several more years to learn about ergonomic mechanical keyboards, and I ended up sticking with Ergodox both at work and at my gaming PC for 7-ish years now. The point of my anecdote is that I would just expect that most of the "visible" people in the mechanical keyboard community are younger, and might grow into the ergonomic keyboards later, just like me.

iyc_ 4y ago

That, and the missing meta/hyper key either on the left hand side of the spacebar, or close to the thumbs.

christophilus 4y ago

I used to use a split keyboard, but now use a tenkeyless Vermillo[0]. Best keyboard I’ve ever used. I find that form factor, paired with VIM gives my wrists less pain than any larger keyboard I’ve used. The distance I have to travel to use a mouse is also reduced, which I find helpful. [0] https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=4911 https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_det...

CTDOCodebases 4y ago

People don't like change and not everyone has noticeable issues typing on standard keyboards. Once you do make the switch though the benefits become obvious.

michaelbrave 4y ago

I'm also curious why there arne't more expiramental key layouts, for example having programming related keys like "()~!" on the number keys is kind of annoying, would love a redesign where they are on the left instead of say caps lock or a longer shift key.

kixiQu 4y ago
There are tons of people who tweak their layouts a bunch -- but because it's free to switch that up and do your own experimentation, writing about your layout isn't as useful to other people as reviewing things they are considering paying for.
ProZsolt 4y ago
I went with a 36 key Corne keyboard[0] with a modified Miryoku[1] layout. In this way every symbol is near the home row [0]: https://github.com/foostan/crkbd https://github.com/foostan/crkbd [1]: https://github.com/manna-harbour/miryoku https://github.com/manna-harbour/miryoku
CTDOCodebases 4y ago
Using the open source firmware (QMK) that comes with most custom keyboard PCBs you can set keys to act as modifier keys when held or tapped. I set my capslock up like this so that when I hold it down h,j,k,l become my arrow keys and y and o become my home and end keys respectively. Some PCBs support a split space bar too so if you tend to hit space with one hand the other can be used for a modifier and the home row can house all your commonly typed symbols which are normally out of reach.

eyelidlessness 4y ago

I don’t begrudge anyone their preferred ergonomics, but I’m glad that I can find non-split mechanical keyboards as I prefer their ergonomics. But I agree, it’s surprising there aren’t many more split offerings available. As far as aesthetics, as the mechanical keyboard market has become almost totally focused on gaming, I find it difficult to find any which aren’t gaudy. I’m just glad my current one allows turning off the blinding backlight.