6 ms·

Just to make sure everyone is aware - this isn't a solved issue of the past. Airplanes continue to use leaded gasoline that, while much smaller relative to eve

by munk-a 4y ago

Just to make sure everyone is aware - this isn't a solved issue of the past. Airplanes continue to use leaded gasoline that, while much smaller relative to everyone's car running on it, contributes to higher than healthy lead in our environment.

Sakos 4y ago
In a way that results in higher (or even similar?) exposure to lead compared to when everybody had cars running on it? For your average person? I'm gonna need hard numbers for that. Okay, for the people who can't read between the lines and just resort to downvoting instead of actually being useful in a conversation. 1) The article is about childhood lead exposure on adult personalities. 2) He makes a comment about aviation and its current use of leaded gasoline ("contributes to higher than healthy lead in our environment") with the warning "this isn't a solved issue of the past". 3) This implies that the aviation industry and its use of leaded gas is in any way comparable to what we had before when everybody had daily contact with leaded gas. 4) Nobody has yet provided any evidence of the fact that aviation results in any appreciable exposure to lead for your average citizen. 5) This matters because the original article is not about environmental impact. It's about childhood exposure. How is this so hard? I seriously question the ability of your average HNer to make logical deductions.
- throwaway0a5e 4y ago
  No, not even close. To portray otherwise is right up there with the people screeching about radiation exposure on the order of spending a day working outside. The lead exposure as a result of stuff your daily life (which is mostly a reflection of the history of where you live and work) contributes far more than avgas in the atmosphere. Unless you live downwind of a busy GA airport and have managed to get all other
- dEnigma 4y ago
  No, of course not. But that's also not what OP claimed.
- wlesieutre 4y ago
  They said "higher than healthy" not "higher than when everyone's car ran on it"
  - AnimalMuppet 4y ago
    OK, but there's still the same question. What is the "healthy" ppb level of lead in air, and what is the concentration from avgas? Also, here's a plane flying at 4000 AGL. How much of the lead it puts out is going to affect the lead level at ground level? (I mean, it can raise the ppb of the entire atmosphere, which eventually affects everyone, but that's a huge mass to affect.) It might matter for those living downwind and close to heavily-used private plane fields, though.
- munk-a 4y ago
  Just to clarify on #3 - from my original post: "while much smaller relative to everyone's car running on it". I didn't imply that the lead levels were equal or near to levels when everyone's car was running on it - I tried to state the exact opposite but, I'd clarify, the levels of lead in our environment is still well elevated from what it was prior to the introduction of leaded gasoline and lead is a heavy contaminant like mercury - it accumulates in your body and causes cumulative damage. And to point #5 - the levels present in our environment directly contribute to how much childhood exposure you'll suffer.
tastyfreeze 4y ago
Only piston or radial engines use 100LL. Turbine engines are sucking down jet A which is kerosene. Turbines don't require lead as an anti knock additive.
- LargoLasskhyfv 4y ago
  That doesn't make it any better, or less bad, because of the other additives it contains, for consistent performance over a wide temperature range, from standing on glowing tarmac/concrete, in the desert sun, to arctic cold, and much other stuff. Search for something like "toxicologic(al) asessment/profile of jet fuel" and prepare to have your mind blown. While what pops up then mostly covers the military variants like JP-4,7,8, there is enough about the civil use Jet-A1 you are talking about.
_yb2s 4y ago
Lead is still everywhere, not just aviation fuel. About 35% of homes in the USA still have lead paint, which creates lead dust when doors and windows open/close, and lead in the soil where kids play outside. A large fraction of homes still have lead-soldered drinking water supply pipes. Lots of toys, food cans, and vinyl window blinds also still contain and expose kids to lead.
- warent 4y ago
  Do you have references to these claims? I'm not saying it's impossible but this shocking and much higher / more prevalent than I would've thought
  - munk-a 4y ago
    HUD[1][2] is the source for the 35% of households figure. 1. https://www.gao.gov/blog/2018/06/20/lead-paint-in-housing https://www.gao.gov/blog/2018/06/20/lead-paint-in-housing 2. Here's a better source actually: https://www.hud.gov/sites/documents/AHHS_REPORT.PDF https://www.hud.gov/sites/documents/AHHS_REPORT.PDF
- _Adam 4y ago
  I measured the concentration of lead in the hot water from my kitchen faucet. My plumping is copper with lead solder, so I expected some but not too much. The result was 105 ppb. This is insane when you consider that Flint's level was 20 ppb during the crisis. The cold water should be zero, but I installed a lead filter to ensure this. Lead testing is pretty cheap and there are usually a lot of labs around big cities. Highly recommend water testing even if you don't think you have the risk factors.
  - tablespoon 4y ago
    > Lead testing is pretty cheap and there are usually a lot of labs around big cities. Highly recommend water testing even if you don't think you have the risk factors. Could you tell me what you used to do the testing?
oh_sigh 4y ago
In what sense does it contribute? Yes, putting any amount of lead into the atmosphere is bad, but it isn't so bad if it is so dilute that it is basically background levels. I'd imagine low quality lead pipes, and fruit juice, are a much bigger cause of high lead levels than small plane engines.
- klyrs 4y ago
  As somebody who grew up living under the flightpath of a busy airport and always appreciated the variety of small craft flying overhead, I happen to think that this is a pretty big deal. About two blocks away from my house was what we called "the ghetto." The correlation among lead, poverty, violence, and racialized populations is a major character in the story of american politics.
  - oh_sigh 4y ago
    Have you had your blood lead levels checked? Are they elevated?
    - klyrs 4y ago
      The half-life of bloodborne lead is about 28 days (according to first google hit) and I moved out many years ago; I think I'd need a bone sample or something to find a signal.
  - briandear 4y ago
    Can you prove the lead is from the airplanes? Land near airports was historically cheaper so the correlation isn’t causative.
    - klyrs 4y ago
      Must I prove that 100% of the problem is lead from airplanes in every single neighborhood-by-airport before I'm allowed to express concern? Can you prove that avgas is not a significant contributor to lead accumulation in the soil of these neighborhoods?
briandear 4y ago
Lead from AvGas is extremely insignificant despite what the Santa Clara Supervisors would have you believe in their quest to ruin Reid Hillview Airport.
- jeffbee 4y ago
  Do RHV pilots understand conservation of mass or nah?

by munk-a 4y ago

Sakos 4y ago

In a way that results in higher (or even similar?) exposure to lead compared to when everybody had cars running on it? For your average person? I'm gonna need hard numbers for that. Okay, for the people who can't read between the lines and just resort to downvoting instead of actually being useful in a conversation. 1) The article is about childhood lead exposure on adult personalities. 2) He makes a comment about aviation and its current use of leaded gasoline ("contributes to higher than healthy lead in our environment") with the warning "this isn't a solved issue of the past". 3) This implies that the aviation industry and its use of leaded gas is in any way comparable to what we had before when everybody had daily contact with leaded gas. 4) Nobody has yet provided any evidence of the fact that aviation results in any appreciable exposure to lead for your average citizen. 5) This matters because the original article is not about environmental impact. It's about childhood exposure. How is this so hard? I seriously question the ability of your average HNer to make logical deductions.

throwaway0a5e 4y ago
No, not even close. To portray otherwise is right up there with the people screeching about radiation exposure on the order of spending a day working outside. The lead exposure as a result of stuff your daily life (which is mostly a reflection of the history of where you live and work) contributes far more than avgas in the atmosphere. Unless you live downwind of a busy GA airport and have managed to get all other
dEnigma 4y ago
No, of course not. But that's also not what OP claimed.
wlesieutre 4y ago
They said "higher than healthy" not "higher than when everyone's car ran on it"
- AnimalMuppet 4y ago
  OK, but there's still the same question. What is the "healthy" ppb level of lead in air, and what is the concentration from avgas? Also, here's a plane flying at 4000 AGL. How much of the lead it puts out is going to affect the lead level at ground level? (I mean, it can raise the ppb of the entire atmosphere, which eventually affects everyone, but that's a huge mass to affect.) It might matter for those living downwind and close to heavily-used private plane fields, though.
munk-a 4y ago
Just to clarify on #3 - from my original post: "while much smaller relative to everyone's car running on it". I didn't imply that the lead levels were equal or near to levels when everyone's car was running on it - I tried to state the exact opposite but, I'd clarify, the levels of lead in our environment is still well elevated from what it was prior to the introduction of leaded gasoline and lead is a heavy contaminant like mercury - it accumulates in your body and causes cumulative damage. And to point #5 - the levels present in our environment directly contribute to how much childhood exposure you'll suffer.

tastyfreeze 4y ago

Only piston or radial engines use 100LL. Turbine engines are sucking down jet A which is kerosene. Turbines don't require lead as an anti knock additive.

LargoLasskhyfv 4y ago
That doesn't make it any better, or less bad, because of the other additives it contains, for consistent performance over a wide temperature range, from standing on glowing tarmac/concrete, in the desert sun, to arctic cold, and much other stuff. Search for something like "toxicologic(al) asessment/profile of jet fuel" and prepare to have your mind blown. While what pops up then mostly covers the military variants like JP-4,7,8, there is enough about the civil use Jet-A1 you are talking about.

_yb2s 4y ago

Lead is still everywhere, not just aviation fuel. About 35% of homes in the USA still have lead paint, which creates lead dust when doors and windows open/close, and lead in the soil where kids play outside. A large fraction of homes still have lead-soldered drinking water supply pipes. Lots of toys, food cans, and vinyl window blinds also still contain and expose kids to lead.

warent 4y ago
Do you have references to these claims? I'm not saying it's impossible but this shocking and much higher / more prevalent than I would've thought
- munk-a 4y ago
  HUD[1][2] is the source for the 35% of households figure. 1. https://www.gao.gov/blog/2018/06/20/lead-paint-in-housing https://www.gao.gov/blog/2018/06/20/lead-paint-in-housing 2. Here's a better source actually: https://www.hud.gov/sites/documents/AHHS_REPORT.PDF https://www.hud.gov/sites/documents/AHHS_REPORT.PDF
_Adam 4y ago
I measured the concentration of lead in the hot water from my kitchen faucet. My plumping is copper with lead solder, so I expected some but not too much. The result was 105 ppb. This is insane when you consider that Flint's level was 20 ppb during the crisis. The cold water should be zero, but I installed a lead filter to ensure this. Lead testing is pretty cheap and there are usually a lot of labs around big cities. Highly recommend water testing even if you don't think you have the risk factors.
- tablespoon 4y ago
  > Lead testing is pretty cheap and there are usually a lot of labs around big cities. Highly recommend water testing even if you don't think you have the risk factors. Could you tell me what you used to do the testing?

oh_sigh 4y ago

In what sense does it contribute? Yes, putting any amount of lead into the atmosphere is bad, but it isn't so bad if it is so dilute that it is basically background levels. I'd imagine low quality lead pipes, and fruit juice, are a much bigger cause of high lead levels than small plane engines.

klyrs 4y ago
As somebody who grew up living under the flightpath of a busy airport and always appreciated the variety of small craft flying overhead, I happen to think that this is a pretty big deal. About two blocks away from my house was what we called "the ghetto." The correlation among lead, poverty, violence, and racialized populations is a major character in the story of american politics.
- oh_sigh 4y ago
  Have you had your blood lead levels checked? Are they elevated?
  - klyrs 4y ago
    The half-life of bloodborne lead is about 28 days (according to first google hit) and I moved out many years ago; I think I'd need a bone sample or something to find a signal.
- briandear 4y ago
  Can you prove the lead is from the airplanes? Land near airports was historically cheaper so the correlation isn’t causative.
  - klyrs 4y ago
    Must I prove that 100% of the problem is lead from airplanes in every single neighborhood-by-airport before I'm allowed to express concern? Can you prove that avgas is not a significant contributor to lead accumulation in the soil of these neighborhoods?

briandear 4y ago

Lead from AvGas is extremely insignificant despite what the Santa Clara Supervisors would have you believe in their quest to ruin Reid Hillview Airport.

jeffbee 4y ago
Do RHV pilots understand conservation of mass or nah?