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I was prescribed benzos because of sleeping issues, but I was also taking phenibut at the same time. After about 3 weeks of using large doses of the benzos eve

I was prescribed benzos because of sleeping issues, but I was also taking phenibut at the same time. After about 3 weeks of using large doses of the benzos every night, I stopped taking them, but a year later I still feel pangs of withdrawal sometimes when I get stressed. It took me another 4 months to get off the phenibut and a month or so after that before my sleep returned to normal. There were months where I maybe got an hour or two of sleep a night. If I got stressed, I simply wouldn't sleep at all. I once went three days without sleep. The torment of that combined with the withdrawal from the drugs showed me what hell was like. I tell everyone to never take benzos for any reasons. I don't care how safe the doctors say they are; they aren't. Period. There are repercussions - as this study shows - and they will not help the underlying cause of your issues. Treat the cause, not the symptoms.

JimBlackwood 4y ago
I think it’s dangerous to say you should never take benzos. People and their mental states are different. For people with anxiety and panic attacks, benzo’s are literal lifesavers.
RGamma 4y ago
Doctors prescribe benzos for sleep issues and tell you they are safe? Do you live in the US?
- SemanticStrengh 4y ago
  is that a question? Benzos are not safe despite what many doctor believe. I'm in EU.
  - whimsicalism 4y ago
    they're saying they wouldn't be so easily prescribed in the US
    - RGamma 4y ago
      Actually the opposite. Pharma making people addicted: Opioid epidemic and all.
      - whimsicalism 4y ago
        it has gone very much the other way in recent years, it is not easy to be prescribed opioids in the US nowadays.
        RGamma 4y ago
        Oh I wasn't updated on that development. Good to hear!
        SemanticStrengh 4y ago
        source/numbers of the number of prescriptions per year? https://www.hhs.gov/opioids/about-the-epidemic/index.html https://www.hhs.gov/opioids/about-the-epidemic/index.html
        whimsicalism 4y ago
        https://www.iqvia.com/-/media/iqvia/pdfs/institute-reports/prescription-opioid-trends-in-the-united-states/iqi-prescription-opioid-trends-in-the-us-1220-exhibit-1.svg?iar=0&mw=900&hash=FEC7E37FD591600FF5F24E3748B638C7 https://www.iqvia.com/-/media/iqvia/pdfs/institute-reports/p... from https://www.iqvia.com/insights/the-iqvia-institute/reports/prescription-opioid-trends-in-the-united-states https://www.iqvia.com/insights/the-iqvia-institute/reports/p...
        SemanticStrengh 4y ago
        thanks, remarkably linear def doesn't look like a stock market
    - SemanticStrengh 4y ago
      is that a joke? I'd be very surprised if doctors were'nt abusing benzo prescriptions for GAD
  - RGamma 4y ago
    Weird this can happen in the EU to be honest. In Germany these things are really difficult to come by for these minor reasons (it's probably different for the critically ill but I wouldn't know). Briefly, doctors have to have special permissions to prescribe potentially addictive or mentally altering substances and it's only with a special, bureaucratic kind of prescription ("BtM-Rezept"). That's why I always wonder how this can happen so casually. If I'd ask my GP for benzos for sleep problems I'd most certainly not get them even if he'd be allowed to prescribe them and reckless prescription in this case could lose him his license.
  - oboes 4y ago
    In my opinion doctors underestimate the danger of benzos. They also often don't know that there is a black market for benzos (like there is for any other drug). Patients will be able to find benzos if they look for them even if they don't have a prescription. I had a friend who wanted to stop smoking cannabis and got alprazolam prescribed for that by his doctor (it was in EU). In my opinion it would be better to stick to cannabis than switch to Xanax. I myself tried talking with my family doctor about my benzo addiction. I was addicted to etizolam, a RC benzo popular at the time. He seemed not to believe me that it was possible to get benzos without a prescription, and told me that I was wrong and couldn't have a benzo addiction.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
- shepardrtc 4y ago
  Yes. Some doctors do; some don't. My new doctor was horrified when I told her what I was prescribed. She's young, and she said the first thing they say in medical school nowadays is, "Benzos are bad." My first doctor was much older and clearly from a different era of medical school.
  - jolux 4y ago
    My doctor is young and gave me a limited prescription for ten doses of lorazepam while I was adjusting to duloxetine, which often exacerbates anxiety in the first couple weeks. I was experiencing regular panic attacks before starting so he wanted to be sure they didn't become disabling. Benzos are safe when the amount and duration are carefully controlled. The problem is chronic usage, which is more or less contraindicated these days.
SemanticStrengh 4y ago
there can be legitimate uses for acute exceptional benzo use for e.g. panic attacks but yeah for anxiety or sleep they are a slippery slope that ruin lives. As I said in my other comment, there exist effective, saner solutions.
- cameronh90 4y ago
  I have a small pack of prescribed diazepam in my backpack in case I have a panic attack. Haven't used any of them so far, but just having them there makes me a lot less anxious.
  - azinman2 4y ago
    That’s a classic strategy. I had a brief period of panic attacks that benzos really helped with that helped me gradually have less and less. I don’t particular like the feeling of the benzo, luckily, so it wasn’t appealing to take outside of acute need. My doctor did seem to want to monitor refills and asks me how often I take them (almost never now), so he was aware of the dependence issue. I do carry one around just in case, and very rarely, do in fact need it.
  - throwaway23324 4y ago
    Same here with klonopin/clonazepam . I take .5mg max which is generally the starting dose, and very, very sparingly - like .5mg every few months max. Benzos can absolutely decimate anxiety reliably - and half of my panic is the fear of not being able to control a panic attack (thus the self-feedback loop into panic). The amount I take only takes the edge off which is all I need, just knowing I have it is such a massive help at preventing panic attacks it's crazy.
- shepardrtc 4y ago
  My eventual treatment for my underlying anxiety was Lexapro. It's worked wonders. I can't say enough good things about it - as long as you stick with it. Old SSRI's are terrible, but newer ones work like they're supposed to. At least in my opinion.
jlmorton 4y ago
It's much the same with chronic alcohol usage, and a very similar pathway. Both alcohol and benzodiazepines bind to GABA receptors, and through several difference mechanisms (desensitization, downregulation through gene expression, degradation), these receptors become less sensitive. GABA receptors are critical to sleep. After prolonged usage of alcohol, or benzos, sleep often becomes impossible without an ever-larger dosage. These sleeping difficulties sometimes persist for quite a while, and sleep disturbances are one of the primary causes of relapse in alcoholics. People learn that alcohol helps them to fall asleep. Even if the quality of sleep is poor, it's substantially better than no sleep at all, as anyone who has gone through what you did surely knows.
- bsimpson 4y ago
  Someone close to me has long been addicted to both alcohol and Ambien (sleeping pills). I'd never considered that alcohol could trigger the need for Ambien. I'd presumed it was a lifestyle thing for someone who was used to being out all night.
77pt77 4y ago
Of the common legal drugs, benzos are by far the most dangerous to quit. And you get addicted in like a week. Be very careful.
- bsimpson 4y ago
  There was a tea bar in my neighborhood that would put kratom in one of the teas. It didn't make me feel particularly euphoric, but I did find myself craving it the next day. Shit is fucking weird and scary.
  - SyzygistSix 4y ago
    It isn't a terribly difficult drug to quit but it is addictive. Some people use it to wean themselves off of opoids.
- entropie 4y ago
  > Of the common legal drugs, benzos are by far the most dangerous to quit. Not sure if that's right. Alcohol withdraw can actually kill you.
  - hibern8 4y ago
    Benzo withdrawal can as well.
    - entropie 4y ago
      Oh, I didn't know.
      - 77pt77 4y ago
        And again, you get to that state in as little as a week. Alcohol takes much longer.
        feanaro 4y ago
jotm 4y ago
Wow, 1. who tf gave you phenibut before gabapentin/pregabalin? Phenibut is notoriously hard to quit. It takes at least a few weeks of gradual tapering down. 2. Together with a benzodiazepine? Wew, lad. Should've also taken a few shots of vodka before sleep for the insanity trifecta. Edit: sorry, I always assume other people have access to medication. I don't so I shouldn't have laughed. Yeah, so there are a few gabapentinoids/gabaergics out there, and they can help a lot. But please read everything you can before deciding on something. Just a couple of pages of Phenibut experiences have convinced me to not try it because there are better alternatives with fewer side effects.
- shepardrtc 4y ago
  I bought it online under the name Somatomax. But you can get it from plenty of other places easily. Actually, a different doctor recommended it to me much earlier. "Just take a break every once in a while," she said. Ok, doc!
- Fargoan 4y ago
  He probably gave himself phenibut. It's not a prescription drug. You can just buy it online.
- SemanticStrengh 4y ago
  it's less frequent but people can get addicted to pregabalin too.
  - jotm 4y ago
    I mean, a lot if not most drugs are addictive - if not physically, then mentally. It's all down to whether it helps you more than it harms you. Hell, I can make the same argument about exercise - is it worth the risk of physical injury, something that most people don't even consider? I'd say yes, the beneficial effects outweigh the negative ones. I've used gabapentinoids (and am using a gabaergic right now) to great positive effects. The downsides are there but they are minor. On that note, I have been using alphaPVP for ADHD management and am happy to report it is nowhere near as scary as the media makes it out to be. A shorter lasting version of methylphenidate, basically, and better than cocaine for the purpose. Gabapentin and pregabalin withdrawal can be scary at first, but once you know the effects and learn to taper off, they're rather harmless. In fact, the biggest danger is in not being able to buy them because the medical system won't allow it, leaving you to quit cold turkey. Second biggest danger is from the police (illegal to possess without a prescription). I have not tried any benzodiazepines or phenibut, but I'd bet they can be managed pretty well.
phenthrowAway 4y ago
To anyone curious about phenibut: Don't. Just don't. Please. Just a few weeks of usage can cause dependence. It is notorious for causing compulsive redosing. Withdrawal can make you unable to sleep for days, with lingering effects like panic attacks and anhedonia for weeks and weeks. Withdrawal from larger quantities can cause auditory and visual hallucinations and seizures and can even KILL you. Avoiding serious symptoms requires an excruciating taper that can take months. The effects of long term abuse are poorly understood. "But it's totally legal, and with responsible dosing can be a potent nootropic. I'm not a drug addict, I'm a biohacker. I'm not after a high." Yeah, That was my thinking too, and in hindsight that was immensely stupid. Please just look at r/quittingphenibut before doing anything. Be kind to your GABA receptors.
- heavyset_go 4y ago
  I've heard of people going through withdrawals after just a single week of use. Nuts that it's sold as a supplement at all. Interestingly enough, a suspected GABA prodrug that supposedly passes the blood-brain barrier called picamilon has been banned by the FDA, yet phenibut is still on shelves.
  - SemanticStrengh 4y ago
    picamilon is banned? That's dumb, soon they will ban l-theanine and taurine? I really don't think you can get addicted to picamillon like phen or benz
    - heavyset_go 4y ago
      The FDA's argument is that it isn't a naturally occurring substance like an amino acid: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picamilon#Regulation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picamilon#Regulation
      - SemanticStrengh 4y ago
        insane hypocrisy from the Federal Death Agency, a prodrug is functionally the exact same thing as the endogenously occuring substance
yodsanklai 4y ago
> I tell everyone to never take benzos for any reasons You can't generalise your experience. Everybody is different and that's the doctor's job to assess whether the benefits outweigh the cost, considering the patient and their problems. Personally, I've been taking benzos very occasionally for 20 years (never more than a few days at a time) and they helped me overcome difficult times. Never had the slightest addiction or side effects. > Treat the cause, not the symptoms. Easier said than done
- sva_ 4y ago
  I have friend who was at nursing school, and she'd get them prescribed for the few occasions where she had to do a presentation, as she would get extremely nervous. She never took them after. Maybe she could've addressed the issue differently, but it worked for her, and she never got hooked. But milage varies, and so on. She also told me that at the hospital, benzos are readily available and they kinda hand then out like candy to manage patients (there doesn't seem to be any rigorous bookkeeping about them). I also tried a few many years ago, but they didn't really do anything for me. I think they only work if you got anxiety or something, so some underlying issue which -if chronic- is probably not a good fit. Never had any cravings since.
  - kayodelycaon 4y ago
    I’ve reacted differently to different benzos. One did nothing. Another triggered one hell of a mood swing (I’m bipolar). Finally settled on Klonopin, which has a long half-life. It seems to be less.. harsh? Psychoactive medications are fun…
    - sva_ 4y ago
      I really only ever tried the ones with a short halflife personally. Now that I think of it, a benzo actually did help me once, when I got my wisdom teeth removed. Made me a bit more calm about it. But it was fairly tolerable overall anyways.
  - nordiazepam 4y ago
loeg 4y ago
> I tell everyone to never take benzos for any reasons. I don't care how safe the doctors say they are; they aren't. Period. Do you ever wonder if maybe something about your situation might be different from most other people prescribed benzos? For example, the concurrent phenibut use.
- shepardrtc 4y ago
  > Do you ever wonder if maybe something about your situation might be different from most other people prescribed benzos? For example, the concurrent phenibut use Absolutely, but benzos are a temporary fix regardless of anything else. They can't fix underlying causes. Obviously people can pop a xanax every once in a while and not go crazy like me, but if you're doing that, perhaps you should look into other treatments like modern SSRI's.
opportune 4y ago
Did you tell your doctor you were taking phenibut when they prescribed you benzos? It seems like something you definitely shouldn't mix. I completely agree that benzos are bad news unless you truly need them. In my relatively uneducated opinion, I don't think they should be a first-line treatment and it's kind of a joke that they're considered schedule 4 (at least compared to things that are schedule 2 - I don't think really anything should be "scheduled"). Benzos and other gaba-ergics may not be as pleasurable as other drugs, but they're very addicting and have the most harmful withdrawal process of any class of drugs. Phenibut and the prevalence of RC benzos (which aren't subject to the federal analogue act since benzos are schedule 4) are another phenomenon. I think people underestimate the risks of this stuff due to how easy it is to get them - especially phenibut which is sold in a lot of more "legit" websites.
- TearsInTheRain 4y ago
  They are considered a first line treatment because they are fast acting whereas other anxiety medications like SSRIs can take weeks to start working.
  - opportune 4y ago
    That makes complete sense for something like panic attacks. I guess I’m thinking more of GAD - I don’t know if they’re formally first line treatments but I know it’s definitely possible to get started with a long-acting benzo
- shepardrtc 4y ago
  > Did you tell your doctor you were taking phenibut when they prescribed you benzos? I mentioned it the old doctor, but they didn't know much about it. The newer doctor researched it and was horrified by it. Mixing them is terrible and should be avoided at all costs.
throwaway23324 4y ago
I have to disagree with the "any reasons" part. First is if it's a psychiatric emergency administered by a nurse for psychosis but I doubt we're really talking about that. But I think they're a valid last-resort treatment for panic attacks if we're talking less then twice a month-ish range. Reason being is that they will reliably work every time, and for many people including myself just knowing we have it can prevent panic attacks. But you still need to be treating your anxiety with therapy and/or other medications (but especially therapy) - its only a last resort. And I mean using it very sparingly, I only take it once every few months, and only the lowest dose (klonopin @0.5mg max) to take the edge off so I can work through it, not enough to remove all the anxiety. EDIT: Oh and anyone with addiction issues should stay away from these. They work _every time_ which is so tempting to use for just mild anxiety and my understanding is higher doses then what I take are euphoric so stay clear.
- shepardrtc 4y ago
  > But you still need to be treating your anxiety with therapy and/or other medications (but especially therapy) - its only a last resort. Most people ignore this part.
jokowueu 4y ago
I recommend trying clonidine . It was a life saver for me
matheusmoreira 4y ago
> I tell everyone to never take benzos for any reasons. You tell people having a panic attack not to take a sublingual benzodiazepine?
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- shepardrtc 4y ago
  A panic attack is not a normal reaction. There's an underlying cause to them, and I tell people that they should get that treated. Benzos are a temporary fix. A friend of mine has panic attacks all the time. He should be on SSRI's but refuses because his anxiety is telling him that they'll destroy him. Can't do any worse than his existing anxiety though.
erichmond 4y ago
First, I want to acknowledge your situation so I don't want to belittle what you went through in any way, but I had a catastrophic series of events happen in my life almost 9 years ago, and Xanax was literally a life saver for me. Taking the Xanax allowed to me relax enough to do the work to figure out how to relax naturally. Before the Xanax I was having crippling panic attacks 24/7. My only point is, you're a data point of one, I'm a data point of one we both had very different experiences. I don't tell people to take, or not to take benzos when they ask me, I just give my objective experience and let them make their own decision.
- shepardrtc 4y ago
  I'm glad they worked for you. And yes, in extreme cases, yes, a relatively mild benzo like Xanax can really help. But doctor's give them out like candy and people don't really understand what's happening when you take them so they keep taking them. I give out that warning just to be safe because most people don't research things enough.
TearsInTheRain 4y ago
Was your use monitored by a doctor? It doesn't sound like it. Klonopin was very helpful for me to pull me out of an episode of severe anxiety and constant extreme panic attacks. It was a bridge med until the SSRIs kicked in. My dose was never that high and I wound off them slowly after two months. Stopping abruptly after 3 weeks sounds like a bad idea. Im very grateful for that drug.
johnisgood 4y ago
There were times when I abused them. I had a pretty bad withdrawal that gave me a seizure. Now I take them to give me munchies. For that of course I must not take it for longer than 2 weeks. My depression and anxiety is treated in a different way. Benzodiazepines messes with my memory and cognition. Lorazepam seems to be the worst on memory, for me. Useful for dental appointments though.
raylad 4y ago
Somewhat germane: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22371848/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22371848/ Conclusions: Receiving hypnotic prescriptions was associated with greater than threefold increased hazards of death even when prescribed <18 pills/year. This association held in separate analyses for several commonly used hypnotics and for newer shorter-acting drugs. Control of selective prescription of hypnotics for patients in poor health did not explain the observed excess mortality.
EricMausler 4y ago
>There were months where I maybe got an hour or two of sleep a night. I feel like this is very easy to gloss over while reading, but in actuality is quite an intense experience to have gone through. This would drive me actually insane, I don't know how to coped with it
- shepardrtc 4y ago
  It was utter torment. I had to run a team at work all the while. I was able to do it, but only through sheer willpower. I had to constantly reiterate to myself what was happening and the timeline for it to be over to be able to deal with it. It increased my mental toughness dramatically. My life is actually much better now because of the entire experience.
duvara 4y ago
Just putting this in here. If you are suffering from insomnia, one possible alternative is to look into CBTI (cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia). Its one of the only clinically proven non-drug-related treatments for insomnia. If you are struggling, google it and try to find a CBTI counselor to help. Don't try it on your own - its quite challenging. It literally saved my life a few years ago.
noduerme 4y ago
I don't think they're meant to be taken that way. I've had the same bottle of Xanax around for 5 years. It's more like a "break the glass in case of emergency" type thing. Usually reserved for going to funerals or weddings of people I hate, when I can't tie my tie because I'm in a cold sweat. As the kind of alcoholic who never turns down a drink, it surprises me how strongly I don't want to touch diazepam, how little inclination I've ever had to take it recreationally, even though I enjoy it and know it can provide short-term comfort. On a lot of occasions, having the bottle in my pocket just in case has been enough. Then again, that might be because of how strongly it reacts with alcohol, which is a given in most situations where I'd break out the Xanax...
- datavirtue 4y ago
  I learned about benzo alcohol reactions the hard way. I took one or two decent doses (purple footballs) of Xanax with a lot of alcohol. I some how made it home and then fell into a cycle of sleep sessions where I would sleep for four hours, wake up for 15 minutes, and then fall back asleep. This happened several times, wiping out an entire day of my life. I was finally roused to go help my brother who had done the same thing but instead of sleeping he wrecked my motorcycle and bounced his face off a tree (helmet on, he was ok). A few minutes down the road my uncle had done the same thing but was already home--he managed to total my cousin's car (his son's car) in the driveway....in reverse. After that I was done with benzos forever. My brother and uncle weren't though. As a result they are both in an early grave. There is more to the story but benzos we're always central to dangerous addiction, raging drug abuse, and heroine use. Around that time my brother almost died by drowning in a bowl of fruit loops on a benzo bender. His girlfriend found him face down in the bowl and saved him--and subsequently left him afterward. My dad (also dead from addiction) was on benzos for many years...very small dose. He was an alcoholic and the benzo+alcohol mix (I found to be a very common self medication and recreational outlet) literally destroyed his life. I have a pretty negative and reactionary stance against the whole range of pills that people deal in. Though, my experience is one where I have never seen anyone be helped by them.
dlkf 4y ago
> 3 weeks of using large doses of the benzos every night Is this literally what the doctor prescribed?
anti-soyboy 4y ago
Just use Marihuana and stop taking synthetic shit.
jnovek 4y ago
“I once went three days without sleep.” This is just a side note, but I’ve never heard of anything like this happening before with such a short course of benzos. That doesn’t mean it’s not happening, and it doesn’t mean that it’s not the benzos, but because it’s an unusual outcome, have you considered looking into other possible causes? You were taking the benzos for sleep, after all, could a different underlying cause have gotten worse or been exacerbated by the benzos? To be clear, this isn’t to diminish or invalidate your experience, it’s genuine concern from another human.
- shepardrtc 4y ago
  It was two 15mg Temazepam capsules every night. Temazepam is a very powerful benzo. One night I actually took 60mg total without understanding what I was doing. So its very different from a Xanax, which is what people usually think of when they think of benzos. Anxiety was the underlying cause of all of this, and I was dealing with a lot of stuff in life at the time that was causing me anxiety. So yes, it wasn't just the benzos and the phenibut. My body simply couldn't handle any anxiety and I was putting myself in situations that caused it.
bradlys 4y ago
> Treat the cause, not the symptoms. By all means comrade, supply UBI, universal healthcare, and quality housing for free. The reason I was stressed in college is because I didn’t have those things and I needed to work exceptionally hard in a cutthroat stack ranked program to stay afloat. Once I was making $100k+ (I was living in SV) and had a financial cushion instead of barely scraping by - I didn’t have as severe of sleeping issues. Same with getting a partner. It was nice to share the bed with someone instead of being alone for 26 years. Doctors prescribe stuff because that shit isn’t possible to fix by them or nearly anyone else on an individual level. It requires systematic changes to our entire economy (and dating economy for the relationship part).
mancerayder 4y ago
I think they're quite dangerous nightly/daily, but from what I've seen 1-2X a week for sleep can be restorative versus perpetual insomnia.
barfingclouds 4y ago
I’ve taken benzos for half my life but I space them out in a way so they aren’t damaging like that. Yeah it can be bad how people don’t realize how damaging they can be. I’m really grateful for them, and they’ve saved me from burning out at my job multiple times (hypersensitive, social anxiety, likely autism)
BarctorPkD 4y ago
I'm kind of ridiculously qualified to speak on this subject. I've been taking phenibut off and on for over 6 years now. lol back when it was known online as the "crazy russian drug" lol. Before that I was on gabapentin. It's a type of drug known as a gabapentinoid. Phenibut has a reputation, but it is basically just gabapentin/neurotin/ or lyrica/pregaba(Honestly, you might have been able to solve your problem with a perscription to gabapentin. There probably is a cross tolerance.). I was also prescribed benzodiazapines for years. I quit several times basically cold turkey(don't ever do that). I didn't find benzodiazapines in any way psychologically addictive. They are physically addictive. REALLY physically addictive! I feel like all the issues caused by benzodiazapines went away with time. Short term, there were a ton of problems. The human brain is good at adapting to things. Benzos makes you tired and hungry... That isn't recreational to me. I was basically taking benzos because I was so miserable I didn't want to exist anymore. It wasn't recreational, it was self medicating... COCAINE is a recreational drug. I also dont get how people have problems with phenibut. You get a tolerance faster than any drug I have ever taken. You end up having to double the dosage almost everyday... I've had several psychiatrists literally try and diagnose me with bipolar disorder while i was on VERY large dosages of gabapentanoids. The "high" is the most chaotic thing I have ever experienced. Why would you want to feel like that everyday? Anecdotally, I had a very different experience from you. Phenibut also just does crazy, crazy things to your libido. Seriously... It turn's you into a sex maniac... It takes 5 hours to kick in... It doesn't even make since as a solution to the problem you were trying to solve! Take it and maybe you will go to sleep in 5 hours... I'm literally on it right now. Maybe i'm approaching things more from the perspective of an addict. I guess it's understandable that maybe you have had a different experience than me. I'm on seroquel for sleep issues. Maybe give that a try. At low dosages seroquel functions as an antihistamine not a antipsychotic. It's solved my sleep problems better than anything I have ever taken. I've had a very, very different experience from you. The Phenibut for sleep thing doesn't make since. I'm messed up on the stuff atm. I took it yesterday. 24 hours ago! Don't take it for sleep. Maybe take it at gym if you really need to kill it.

JimBlackwood 4y ago

I think it’s dangerous to say you should never take benzos. People and their mental states are different. For people with anxiety and panic attacks, benzo’s are literal lifesavers.

RGamma 4y ago

Doctors prescribe benzos for sleep issues and tell you they are safe? Do you live in the US?

SemanticStrengh 4y ago
is that a question? Benzos are not safe despite what many doctor believe. I'm in EU.
- whimsicalism 4y ago
  they're saying they wouldn't be so easily prescribed in the US
  - RGamma 4y ago
    Actually the opposite. Pharma making people addicted: Opioid epidemic and all.
    - whimsicalism 4y ago
      it has gone very much the other way in recent years, it is not easy to be prescribed opioids in the US nowadays.
      - RGamma 4y ago
        Oh I wasn't updated on that development. Good to hear!
      - SemanticStrengh 4y ago
        source/numbers of the number of prescriptions per year? https://www.hhs.gov/opioids/about-the-epidemic/index.html https://www.hhs.gov/opioids/about-the-epidemic/index.html
        whimsicalism 4y ago
        https://www.iqvia.com/-/media/iqvia/pdfs/institute-reports/prescription-opioid-trends-in-the-united-states/iqi-prescription-opioid-trends-in-the-us-1220-exhibit-1.svg?iar=0&mw=900&hash=FEC7E37FD591600FF5F24E3748B638C7 https://www.iqvia.com/-/media/iqvia/pdfs/institute-reports/p... from https://www.iqvia.com/insights/the-iqvia-institute/reports/prescription-opioid-trends-in-the-united-states https://www.iqvia.com/insights/the-iqvia-institute/reports/p...
        SemanticStrengh 4y ago
        thanks, remarkably linear def doesn't look like a stock market
  - SemanticStrengh 4y ago
    is that a joke? I'd be very surprised if doctors were'nt abusing benzo prescriptions for GAD
- RGamma 4y ago
  Weird this can happen in the EU to be honest. In Germany these things are really difficult to come by for these minor reasons (it's probably different for the critically ill but I wouldn't know). Briefly, doctors have to have special permissions to prescribe potentially addictive or mentally altering substances and it's only with a special, bureaucratic kind of prescription ("BtM-Rezept"). That's why I always wonder how this can happen so casually. If I'd ask my GP for benzos for sleep problems I'd most certainly not get them even if he'd be allowed to prescribe them and reckless prescription in this case could lose him his license.
- oboes 4y ago
  In my opinion doctors underestimate the danger of benzos. They also often don't know that there is a black market for benzos (like there is for any other drug). Patients will be able to find benzos if they look for them even if they don't have a prescription. I had a friend who wanted to stop smoking cannabis and got alprazolam prescribed for that by his doctor (it was in EU). In my opinion it would be better to stick to cannabis than switch to Xanax. I myself tried talking with my family doctor about my benzo addiction. I was addicted to etizolam, a RC benzo popular at the time. He seemed not to believe me that it was possible to get benzos without a prescription, and told me that I was wrong and couldn't have a benzo addiction.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
shepardrtc 4y ago
Yes. Some doctors do; some don't. My new doctor was horrified when I told her what I was prescribed. She's young, and she said the first thing they say in medical school nowadays is, "Benzos are bad." My first doctor was much older and clearly from a different era of medical school.
- jolux 4y ago
  My doctor is young and gave me a limited prescription for ten doses of lorazepam while I was adjusting to duloxetine, which often exacerbates anxiety in the first couple weeks. I was experiencing regular panic attacks before starting so he wanted to be sure they didn't become disabling. Benzos are safe when the amount and duration are carefully controlled. The problem is chronic usage, which is more or less contraindicated these days.

SemanticStrengh 4y ago

there can be legitimate uses for acute exceptional benzo use for e.g. panic attacks but yeah for anxiety or sleep they are a slippery slope that ruin lives. As I said in my other comment, there exist effective, saner solutions.

cameronh90 4y ago
I have a small pack of prescribed diazepam in my backpack in case I have a panic attack. Haven't used any of them so far, but just having them there makes me a lot less anxious.
- azinman2 4y ago
  That’s a classic strategy. I had a brief period of panic attacks that benzos really helped with that helped me gradually have less and less. I don’t particular like the feeling of the benzo, luckily, so it wasn’t appealing to take outside of acute need. My doctor did seem to want to monitor refills and asks me how often I take them (almost never now), so he was aware of the dependence issue. I do carry one around just in case, and very rarely, do in fact need it.
- throwaway23324 4y ago
  Same here with klonopin/clonazepam . I take .5mg max which is generally the starting dose, and very, very sparingly - like .5mg every few months max. Benzos can absolutely decimate anxiety reliably - and half of my panic is the fear of not being able to control a panic attack (thus the self-feedback loop into panic). The amount I take only takes the edge off which is all I need, just knowing I have it is such a massive help at preventing panic attacks it's crazy.
shepardrtc 4y ago
My eventual treatment for my underlying anxiety was Lexapro. It's worked wonders. I can't say enough good things about it - as long as you stick with it. Old SSRI's are terrible, but newer ones work like they're supposed to. At least in my opinion.

jlmorton 4y ago

It's much the same with chronic alcohol usage, and a very similar pathway. Both alcohol and benzodiazepines bind to GABA receptors, and through several difference mechanisms (desensitization, downregulation through gene expression, degradation), these receptors become less sensitive. GABA receptors are critical to sleep. After prolonged usage of alcohol, or benzos, sleep often becomes impossible without an ever-larger dosage. These sleeping difficulties sometimes persist for quite a while, and sleep disturbances are one of the primary causes of relapse in alcoholics. People learn that alcohol helps them to fall asleep. Even if the quality of sleep is poor, it's substantially better than no sleep at all, as anyone who has gone through what you did surely knows.

bsimpson 4y ago
Someone close to me has long been addicted to both alcohol and Ambien (sleeping pills). I'd never considered that alcohol could trigger the need for Ambien. I'd presumed it was a lifestyle thing for someone who was used to being out all night.

77pt77 4y ago

Of the common legal drugs, benzos are by far the most dangerous to quit. And you get addicted in like a week. Be very careful.

bsimpson 4y ago
There was a tea bar in my neighborhood that would put kratom in one of the teas. It didn't make me feel particularly euphoric, but I did find myself craving it the next day. Shit is fucking weird and scary.
- SyzygistSix 4y ago
  It isn't a terribly difficult drug to quit but it is addictive. Some people use it to wean themselves off of opoids.
entropie 4y ago
> Of the common legal drugs, benzos are by far the most dangerous to quit. Not sure if that's right. Alcohol withdraw can actually kill you.
- hibern8 4y ago
  Benzo withdrawal can as well.
  - entropie 4y ago
    Oh, I didn't know.
    - 77pt77 4y ago
      And again, you get to that state in as little as a week. Alcohol takes much longer.
      - feanaro 4y ago

jotm 4y ago

Wow, 1. who tf gave you phenibut before gabapentin/pregabalin? Phenibut is notoriously hard to quit. It takes at least a few weeks of gradual tapering down. 2. Together with a benzodiazepine? Wew, lad. Should've also taken a few shots of vodka before sleep for the insanity trifecta. Edit: sorry, I always assume other people have access to medication. I don't so I shouldn't have laughed. Yeah, so there are a few gabapentinoids/gabaergics out there, and they can help a lot. But please read everything you can before deciding on something. Just a couple of pages of Phenibut experiences have convinced me to not try it because there are better alternatives with fewer side effects.

shepardrtc 4y ago
I bought it online under the name Somatomax. But you can get it from plenty of other places easily. Actually, a different doctor recommended it to me much earlier. "Just take a break every once in a while," she said. Ok, doc!
Fargoan 4y ago
He probably gave himself phenibut. It's not a prescription drug. You can just buy it online.
SemanticStrengh 4y ago
it's less frequent but people can get addicted to pregabalin too.
- jotm 4y ago
  I mean, a lot if not most drugs are addictive - if not physically, then mentally. It's all down to whether it helps you more than it harms you. Hell, I can make the same argument about exercise - is it worth the risk of physical injury, something that most people don't even consider? I'd say yes, the beneficial effects outweigh the negative ones. I've used gabapentinoids (and am using a gabaergic right now) to great positive effects. The downsides are there but they are minor. On that note, I have been using alphaPVP for ADHD management and am happy to report it is nowhere near as scary as the media makes it out to be. A shorter lasting version of methylphenidate, basically, and better than cocaine for the purpose. Gabapentin and pregabalin withdrawal can be scary at first, but once you know the effects and learn to taper off, they're rather harmless. In fact, the biggest danger is in not being able to buy them because the medical system won't allow it, leaving you to quit cold turkey. Second biggest danger is from the police (illegal to possess without a prescription). I have not tried any benzodiazepines or phenibut, but I'd bet they can be managed pretty well.

phenthrowAway 4y ago

To anyone curious about phenibut: Don't. Just don't. Please. Just a few weeks of usage can cause dependence. It is notorious for causing compulsive redosing. Withdrawal can make you unable to sleep for days, with lingering effects like panic attacks and anhedonia for weeks and weeks. Withdrawal from larger quantities can cause auditory and visual hallucinations and seizures and can even KILL you. Avoiding serious symptoms requires an excruciating taper that can take months. The effects of long term abuse are poorly understood. "But it's totally legal, and with responsible dosing can be a potent nootropic. I'm not a drug addict, I'm a biohacker. I'm not after a high." Yeah, That was my thinking too, and in hindsight that was immensely stupid. Please just look at r/quittingphenibut before doing anything. Be kind to your GABA receptors.

heavyset_go 4y ago
I've heard of people going through withdrawals after just a single week of use. Nuts that it's sold as a supplement at all. Interestingly enough, a suspected GABA prodrug that supposedly passes the blood-brain barrier called picamilon has been banned by the FDA, yet phenibut is still on shelves.
- SemanticStrengh 4y ago
  picamilon is banned? That's dumb, soon they will ban l-theanine and taurine? I really don't think you can get addicted to picamillon like phen or benz
  - heavyset_go 4y ago
    The FDA's argument is that it isn't a naturally occurring substance like an amino acid: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picamilon#Regulation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picamilon#Regulation
    - SemanticStrengh 4y ago
      insane hypocrisy from the Federal Death Agency, a prodrug is functionally the exact same thing as the endogenously occuring substance

yodsanklai 4y ago

> I tell everyone to never take benzos for any reasons You can't generalise your experience. Everybody is different and that's the doctor's job to assess whether the benefits outweigh the cost, considering the patient and their problems. Personally, I've been taking benzos very occasionally for 20 years (never more than a few days at a time) and they helped me overcome difficult times. Never had the slightest addiction or side effects. > Treat the cause, not the symptoms. Easier said than done

sva_ 4y ago
I have friend who was at nursing school, and she'd get them prescribed for the few occasions where she had to do a presentation, as she would get extremely nervous. She never took them after. Maybe she could've addressed the issue differently, but it worked for her, and she never got hooked. But milage varies, and so on. She also told me that at the hospital, benzos are readily available and they kinda hand then out like candy to manage patients (there doesn't seem to be any rigorous bookkeeping about them). I also tried a few many years ago, but they didn't really do anything for me. I think they only work if you got anxiety or something, so some underlying issue which -if chronic- is probably not a good fit. Never had any cravings since.
- kayodelycaon 4y ago
  I’ve reacted differently to different benzos. One did nothing. Another triggered one hell of a mood swing (I’m bipolar). Finally settled on Klonopin, which has a long half-life. It seems to be less.. harsh? Psychoactive medications are fun…
  - sva_ 4y ago
    I really only ever tried the ones with a short halflife personally. Now that I think of it, a benzo actually did help me once, when I got my wisdom teeth removed. Made me a bit more calm about it. But it was fairly tolerable overall anyways.
- nordiazepam 4y ago

loeg 4y ago

> I tell everyone to never take benzos for any reasons. I don't care how safe the doctors say they are; they aren't. Period. Do you ever wonder if maybe something about your situation might be different from most other people prescribed benzos? For example, the concurrent phenibut use.

shepardrtc 4y ago
> Do you ever wonder if maybe something about your situation might be different from most other people prescribed benzos? For example, the concurrent phenibut use Absolutely, but benzos are a temporary fix regardless of anything else. They can't fix underlying causes. Obviously people can pop a xanax every once in a while and not go crazy like me, but if you're doing that, perhaps you should look into other treatments like modern SSRI's.

opportune 4y ago

Did you tell your doctor you were taking phenibut when they prescribed you benzos? It seems like something you definitely shouldn't mix. I completely agree that benzos are bad news unless you truly need them. In my relatively uneducated opinion, I don't think they should be a first-line treatment and it's kind of a joke that they're considered schedule 4 (at least compared to things that are schedule 2 - I don't think really anything should be "scheduled"). Benzos and other gaba-ergics may not be as pleasurable as other drugs, but they're very addicting and have the most harmful withdrawal process of any class of drugs. Phenibut and the prevalence of RC benzos (which aren't subject to the federal analogue act since benzos are schedule 4) are another phenomenon. I think people underestimate the risks of this stuff due to how easy it is to get them - especially phenibut which is sold in a lot of more "legit" websites.

TearsInTheRain 4y ago
They are considered a first line treatment because they are fast acting whereas other anxiety medications like SSRIs can take weeks to start working.
- opportune 4y ago
  That makes complete sense for something like panic attacks. I guess I’m thinking more of GAD - I don’t know if they’re formally first line treatments but I know it’s definitely possible to get started with a long-acting benzo
shepardrtc 4y ago
> Did you tell your doctor you were taking phenibut when they prescribed you benzos? I mentioned it the old doctor, but they didn't know much about it. The newer doctor researched it and was horrified by it. Mixing them is terrible and should be avoided at all costs.

throwaway23324 4y ago

I have to disagree with the "any reasons" part. First is if it's a psychiatric emergency administered by a nurse for psychosis but I doubt we're really talking about that. But I think they're a valid last-resort treatment for panic attacks if we're talking less then twice a month-ish range. Reason being is that they will reliably work every time, and for many people including myself just knowing we have it can prevent panic attacks. But you still need to be treating your anxiety with therapy and/or other medications (but especially therapy) - its only a last resort. And I mean using it very sparingly, I only take it once every few months, and only the lowest dose (klonopin @0.5mg max) to take the edge off so I can work through it, not enough to remove all the anxiety. EDIT: Oh and anyone with addiction issues should stay away from these. They work _every time_ which is so tempting to use for just mild anxiety and my understanding is higher doses then what I take are euphoric so stay clear.

shepardrtc 4y ago
> But you still need to be treating your anxiety with therapy and/or other medications (but especially therapy) - its only a last resort. Most people ignore this part.

jokowueu 4y ago

I recommend trying clonidine . It was a life saver for me

matheusmoreira 4y ago

> I tell everyone to never take benzos for any reasons. You tell people having a panic attack not to take a sublingual benzodiazepine?

deleted 4y ago
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shepardrtc 4y ago
A panic attack is not a normal reaction. There's an underlying cause to them, and I tell people that they should get that treated. Benzos are a temporary fix. A friend of mine has panic attacks all the time. He should be on SSRI's but refuses because his anxiety is telling him that they'll destroy him. Can't do any worse than his existing anxiety though.

erichmond 4y ago

First, I want to acknowledge your situation so I don't want to belittle what you went through in any way, but I had a catastrophic series of events happen in my life almost 9 years ago, and Xanax was literally a life saver for me. Taking the Xanax allowed to me relax enough to do the work to figure out how to relax naturally. Before the Xanax I was having crippling panic attacks 24/7. My only point is, you're a data point of one, I'm a data point of one we both had very different experiences. I don't tell people to take, or not to take benzos when they ask me, I just give my objective experience and let them make their own decision.

shepardrtc 4y ago
I'm glad they worked for you. And yes, in extreme cases, yes, a relatively mild benzo like Xanax can really help. But doctor's give them out like candy and people don't really understand what's happening when you take them so they keep taking them. I give out that warning just to be safe because most people don't research things enough.

TearsInTheRain 4y ago

Was your use monitored by a doctor? It doesn't sound like it. Klonopin was very helpful for me to pull me out of an episode of severe anxiety and constant extreme panic attacks. It was a bridge med until the SSRIs kicked in. My dose was never that high and I wound off them slowly after two months. Stopping abruptly after 3 weeks sounds like a bad idea. Im very grateful for that drug.

johnisgood 4y ago

There were times when I abused them. I had a pretty bad withdrawal that gave me a seizure. Now I take them to give me munchies. For that of course I must not take it for longer than 2 weeks. My depression and anxiety is treated in a different way. Benzodiazepines messes with my memory and cognition. Lorazepam seems to be the worst on memory, for me. Useful for dental appointments though.

raylad 4y ago

Somewhat germane: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22371848/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22371848/ Conclusions: Receiving hypnotic prescriptions was associated with greater than threefold increased hazards of death even when prescribed <18 pills/year. This association held in separate analyses for several commonly used hypnotics and for newer shorter-acting drugs. Control of selective prescription of hypnotics for patients in poor health did not explain the observed excess mortality.

EricMausler 4y ago

>There were months where I maybe got an hour or two of sleep a night. I feel like this is very easy to gloss over while reading, but in actuality is quite an intense experience to have gone through. This would drive me actually insane, I don't know how to coped with it

shepardrtc 4y ago
It was utter torment. I had to run a team at work all the while. I was able to do it, but only through sheer willpower. I had to constantly reiterate to myself what was happening and the timeline for it to be over to be able to deal with it. It increased my mental toughness dramatically. My life is actually much better now because of the entire experience.

duvara 4y ago

Just putting this in here. If you are suffering from insomnia, one possible alternative is to look into CBTI (cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia). Its one of the only clinically proven non-drug-related treatments for insomnia. If you are struggling, google it and try to find a CBTI counselor to help. Don't try it on your own - its quite challenging. It literally saved my life a few years ago.

noduerme 4y ago

I don't think they're meant to be taken that way. I've had the same bottle of Xanax around for 5 years. It's more like a "break the glass in case of emergency" type thing. Usually reserved for going to funerals or weddings of people I hate, when I can't tie my tie because I'm in a cold sweat. As the kind of alcoholic who never turns down a drink, it surprises me how strongly I don't want to touch diazepam, how little inclination I've ever had to take it recreationally, even though I enjoy it and know it can provide short-term comfort. On a lot of occasions, having the bottle in my pocket just in case has been enough. Then again, that might be because of how strongly it reacts with alcohol, which is a given in most situations where I'd break out the Xanax...

datavirtue 4y ago
I learned about benzo alcohol reactions the hard way. I took one or two decent doses (purple footballs) of Xanax with a lot of alcohol. I some how made it home and then fell into a cycle of sleep sessions where I would sleep for four hours, wake up for 15 minutes, and then fall back asleep. This happened several times, wiping out an entire day of my life. I was finally roused to go help my brother who had done the same thing but instead of sleeping he wrecked my motorcycle and bounced his face off a tree (helmet on, he was ok). A few minutes down the road my uncle had done the same thing but was already home--he managed to total my cousin's car (his son's car) in the driveway....in reverse. After that I was done with benzos forever. My brother and uncle weren't though. As a result they are both in an early grave. There is more to the story but benzos we're always central to dangerous addiction, raging drug abuse, and heroine use. Around that time my brother almost died by drowning in a bowl of fruit loops on a benzo bender. His girlfriend found him face down in the bowl and saved him--and subsequently left him afterward. My dad (also dead from addiction) was on benzos for many years...very small dose. He was an alcoholic and the benzo+alcohol mix (I found to be a very common self medication and recreational outlet) literally destroyed his life. I have a pretty negative and reactionary stance against the whole range of pills that people deal in. Though, my experience is one where I have never seen anyone be helped by them.

dlkf 4y ago

> 3 weeks of using large doses of the benzos every night Is this literally what the doctor prescribed?

anti-soyboy 4y ago

Just use Marihuana and stop taking synthetic shit.

jnovek 4y ago

“I once went three days without sleep.” This is just a side note, but I’ve never heard of anything like this happening before with such a short course of benzos. That doesn’t mean it’s not happening, and it doesn’t mean that it’s not the benzos, but because it’s an unusual outcome, have you considered looking into other possible causes? You were taking the benzos for sleep, after all, could a different underlying cause have gotten worse or been exacerbated by the benzos? To be clear, this isn’t to diminish or invalidate your experience, it’s genuine concern from another human.

shepardrtc 4y ago
It was two 15mg Temazepam capsules every night. Temazepam is a very powerful benzo. One night I actually took 60mg total without understanding what I was doing. So its very different from a Xanax, which is what people usually think of when they think of benzos. Anxiety was the underlying cause of all of this, and I was dealing with a lot of stuff in life at the time that was causing me anxiety. So yes, it wasn't just the benzos and the phenibut. My body simply couldn't handle any anxiety and I was putting myself in situations that caused it.

bradlys 4y ago

> Treat the cause, not the symptoms. By all means comrade, supply UBI, universal healthcare, and quality housing for free. The reason I was stressed in college is because I didn’t have those things and I needed to work exceptionally hard in a cutthroat stack ranked program to stay afloat. Once I was making $100k+ (I was living in SV) and had a financial cushion instead of barely scraping by - I didn’t have as severe of sleeping issues. Same with getting a partner. It was nice to share the bed with someone instead of being alone for 26 years. Doctors prescribe stuff because that shit isn’t possible to fix by them or nearly anyone else on an individual level. It requires systematic changes to our entire economy (and dating economy for the relationship part).

mancerayder 4y ago

I think they're quite dangerous nightly/daily, but from what I've seen 1-2X a week for sleep can be restorative versus perpetual insomnia.

barfingclouds 4y ago

I’ve taken benzos for half my life but I space them out in a way so they aren’t damaging like that. Yeah it can be bad how people don’t realize how damaging they can be. I’m really grateful for them, and they’ve saved me from burning out at my job multiple times (hypersensitive, social anxiety, likely autism)

BarctorPkD 4y ago

I'm kind of ridiculously qualified to speak on this subject. I've been taking phenibut off and on for over 6 years now. lol back when it was known online as the "crazy russian drug" lol. Before that I was on gabapentin. It's a type of drug known as a gabapentinoid. Phenibut has a reputation, but it is basically just gabapentin/neurotin/ or lyrica/pregaba(Honestly, you might have been able to solve your problem with a perscription to gabapentin. There probably is a cross tolerance.). I was also prescribed benzodiazapines for years. I quit several times basically cold turkey(don't ever do that). I didn't find benzodiazapines in any way psychologically addictive. They are physically addictive. REALLY physically addictive! I feel like all the issues caused by benzodiazapines went away with time. Short term, there were a ton of problems. The human brain is good at adapting to things. Benzos makes you tired and hungry... That isn't recreational to me. I was basically taking benzos because I was so miserable I didn't want to exist anymore. It wasn't recreational, it was self medicating... COCAINE is a recreational drug. I also dont get how people have problems with phenibut. You get a tolerance faster than any drug I have ever taken. You end up having to double the dosage almost everyday... I've had several psychiatrists literally try and diagnose me with bipolar disorder while i was on VERY large dosages of gabapentanoids. The "high" is the most chaotic thing I have ever experienced. Why would you want to feel like that everyday? Anecdotally, I had a very different experience from you. Phenibut also just does crazy, crazy things to your libido. Seriously... It turn's you into a sex maniac... It takes 5 hours to kick in... It doesn't even make since as a solution to the problem you were trying to solve! Take it and maybe you will go to sleep in 5 hours... I'm literally on it right now. Maybe i'm approaching things more from the perspective of an addict. I guess it's understandable that maybe you have had a different experience than me. I'm on seroquel for sleep issues. Maybe give that a try. At low dosages seroquel functions as an antihistamine not a antipsychotic. It's solved my sleep problems better than anything I have ever taken. I've had a very, very different experience from you. The Phenibut for sleep thing doesn't make since. I'm messed up on the stuff atm. I took it yesterday. 24 hours ago! Don't take it for sleep. Maybe take it at gym if you really need to kill it.