4 ms·

Covid has changed this quite a bit, though even pre covid this wasn't exactly true depending on your profession. Pre-covid, Canada was the place to be for work

by dagmx 4y ago

Covid has changed this quite a bit, though even pre covid this wasn't exactly true depending on your profession. Pre-covid, Canada was the place to be for working in film/tv , visual effects and animation in terms of jobs. I skimmed it but the author didn't mention exactly what creative vocation they were in but given they said Nashville, it's unlikely to be in these fields. Post Covid, success as a developer can mean working remote for a US company, and that is a huge tide change recently. You're suddenly getting US rates, minus the currency conversion, in Canada. Better yet, you can get silicon valley rates.

granshaw 4y ago
You _can_, but most companies are doing location-based pay, so it certainly isn't easy
- dagmx 4y ago
  It's true, but I'm seeing a significant change in the number of roles I'm being reached out to for, or that my friends have gotten, where the location based pay is just the currency difference +-10%. Assuming similar high expense cities like Vancouver vs San Francisco. Other Canadian cities tend to drop off on the cost of labor scale very quickly which affects the location based pay a lot. But that's true in the US as well. Granted that currency conversion hit is a lot. For me, it's less than the amount of time I spent commuting to work in the US, so I feel I came out in top for pay relative to my hours involved.
- lhorie 4y ago
  Even with location-based pay adjustments, big tech has had a growing presence in Canada, and it's becoming more and more realistic to land roles in the upper range of the trimodal comp distribution curve. Location based adjustments for a USD 300k/yr IC role do make up for a huge pay ceiling increase compared to a decade ago where senior dev @ CAD 120k was a ceiling for IC roles before needing to pivot into management.
annexrichmond 4y ago
That’s quite an assumption that US companies are paying US rates in Canada. I can confirm that mine is paying 20% less
- msbarnett 4y ago
  The US company I started working for during the pandemic is paying me US rates, in USD, so I wouldn't call it an "assumption" just because you accepted a job in which you're getting paid 20% less.
  - fbourque 4y ago
    Are they paying SV rates with RSU though as FB and Google are definitely paying noticeably less overall as that was the point of the OP?
    - msbarnett 4y ago
      The person I am directly responding to was disputing the idea that employers are paying US rates in Canada at all ("That’s quite an assumption that US companies are paying US rates in Canada."), not SV rates specifically. Please don't try to shift the goal posts.
- nicoburns 4y ago
  20% less might still be over double local rates.
- dleslie 4y ago
  Last I checked, here in BC the wage for a senior programmer typically ranged between 80 and 150, Canadian. Taking a 20% discount on a SV senior salary, in American dollars, would likely be a significant raise.
  - closeparen 4y ago
    The main difference is no RSUs vs. $200-500k/year RSUs.
potatolicious 4y ago
Agreed - as someone who watches this market closely since I'd like to return to Canada at some point in the future, the gap has closed considerably. I would say there's still something of a gap but a) it's way way closer than it has ever been and b) it appears to still be closing. It would not surprise me if the top employers in the Canadian market got to parity with US tech hub comp.
- ttul 4y ago
  For sure. Amazon will pay $300K in Vancouver for a DevOps role. That’s just one data point, but I can tell you it has never looked this good by half. The pandemic changed everything.
  - potatolicious 4y ago
    I wouldn't discount the role of tightening US immigration policy either. Starting with the last administration H-1B admissions plummeted: processing times and rejection rates skyrocketed. It's now dicier than ever to come to the US on a H-1B visa. And despite rhetoric to the contrary the current administration seems intent on upholding these changes - processing for H-1Bs is still nowhere near historical norms. It used to be that major tech cos would "park" people in Canada to wait for their US visas to clear. I suspect these changes are causing companies to rethink the "wait for US visas" part of the sentence. The more people FAANG parks in Canadian cities the more we will see FAANG-type compensation in those cities.
    - ttul 4y ago
      And it’s not just FAANG. Silicon Valley seems to have discovered that Canadian universities churn out a lot of skilled graduates - many who come from third countries via generous student visas. Many valley based startups have opened offices in Vancouver, Toronto, etc. and are paying great salaries not much removed from valley pay levels.
  - gnicholas 4y ago
    How does the exchange rate and tax rate differences affect the take-home pay comparison?
jollybean 4y ago
" Canada was the place to be for working in film/tv , visual effects and animation in terms of jobs" No it wasn't. That such a glib Canadian thing to say. There are some decent jobs in those fields - but they are not even close to the kinds of jobs available in the US. For some animation jobs - it can be a bit closer. But for anything else, no, Toronto/Van/Montreal is a 'lesser cost centre' for some labour, that's it. Finally - most of this boils down to money. If someone can double their salary by going south they will.
- dagmx 4y ago
  Ironically, I think your comment is a very glib American thing to say. You reduced the entire Canadian market to just being cheaper, which was perhaps true in the height of tax breaks, but that doesn't negate the size of the industry in Canada is massive. There is significantly more VFX/animation studio work in Canada. I feel like you both insulted my comment, then proceeded to do the thing you suggested my comment did. it feels like projection.
  - jollybean 4y ago
    First, I'm Canadian, second - "There is significantly more VFX/animation studio work in Canada." - coming from an 'industry adjacent' situation (but not in the industry) - I would higly doubt that. I don't think you realize just how big the USA is, and that 'Entertainment' is one of their core industries. 'More Jobs Per Capita' - yes - that's entirely plausible. Canada is often much better than the US on so many 'Per Capita' things. But they are probably solid middle class jobs - which is fine - not the executive/leadership and high paying jobs.
    - dagmx 4y ago
      Well either way your comment was glib and seems to completely ignore the specifics of which industries I mentioned. I didn't say all of entertainment. I was very specific about the subsection of the industry. Outside of DWA, WDAS and Pixar, the majority of animation and VFX work for feature and TV has moved to Canada or Australia. Yes there are bigger entertainment industries in the US. That wasn't what I said, and you're getting hung up on some pedantic nonsense that is fully of your own creation.
StayTrue 4y ago
My Canadian startup was acquired by a silicon valley company. They definitely did not pay US rates. They referred to our office as Bangalore of the North.
- dagmx 4y ago
  That's a shame. I've been part of acquisitions of Canadian companies when I was still in the Bay Area. Other than conversion rates, we didn't price Canadian companies differently than the US acquisitions.
gxh8N 4y ago
My girlfriend from Vancouver is moving to the states to live with me. In trying to find a job for her, whenever potential employers hear that she is Canadian, they immediately want to offer remote for her from Vancouver at the local salary rate, which is half what it would be in the US.
lewisl9029 4y ago
Uh... I have a less rosy picture of the situation. To brain drain Canadian talent, US companies used to need to convince people to physically move to a different country, a rather tall order, but even then people were leaving in droves. Now, they can brain drain Canadian talent with practically 0 barriers through remote work. Unless Canadian employers are willing and able to adapt quickly and start offering truly globally competitive salaries (and historically they have proven to be utterly incapable of this), I think this is game over.
- dagmx 4y ago
  That's a fair view on it if you're viewing it from a domestic growth. I was viewing it from the perspective of an employee. Many of these companies are opening up proper Canadian divisions however, though it does price out many Canadian headquartered companies in the process.

by dagmx 4y ago

granshaw 4y ago

You _can_, but most companies are doing location-based pay, so it certainly isn't easy

dagmx 4y ago
It's true, but I'm seeing a significant change in the number of roles I'm being reached out to for, or that my friends have gotten, where the location based pay is just the currency difference +-10%. Assuming similar high expense cities like Vancouver vs San Francisco. Other Canadian cities tend to drop off on the cost of labor scale very quickly which affects the location based pay a lot. But that's true in the US as well. Granted that currency conversion hit is a lot. For me, it's less than the amount of time I spent commuting to work in the US, so I feel I came out in top for pay relative to my hours involved.
lhorie 4y ago
Even with location-based pay adjustments, big tech has had a growing presence in Canada, and it's becoming more and more realistic to land roles in the upper range of the trimodal comp distribution curve. Location based adjustments for a USD 300k/yr IC role do make up for a huge pay ceiling increase compared to a decade ago where senior dev @ CAD 120k was a ceiling for IC roles before needing to pivot into management.

annexrichmond 4y ago

That’s quite an assumption that US companies are paying US rates in Canada. I can confirm that mine is paying 20% less

msbarnett 4y ago
The US company I started working for during the pandemic is paying me US rates, in USD, so I wouldn't call it an "assumption" just because you accepted a job in which you're getting paid 20% less.
- fbourque 4y ago
  Are they paying SV rates with RSU though as FB and Google are definitely paying noticeably less overall as that was the point of the OP?
  - msbarnett 4y ago
    The person I am directly responding to was disputing the idea that employers are paying US rates in Canada at all ("That’s quite an assumption that US companies are paying US rates in Canada."), not SV rates specifically. Please don't try to shift the goal posts.
nicoburns 4y ago
20% less might still be over double local rates.
dleslie 4y ago
Last I checked, here in BC the wage for a senior programmer typically ranged between 80 and 150, Canadian. Taking a 20% discount on a SV senior salary, in American dollars, would likely be a significant raise.
- closeparen 4y ago
  The main difference is no RSUs vs. $200-500k/year RSUs.

potatolicious 4y ago

Agreed - as someone who watches this market closely since I'd like to return to Canada at some point in the future, the gap has closed considerably. I would say there's still something of a gap but a) it's way way closer than it has ever been and b) it appears to still be closing. It would not surprise me if the top employers in the Canadian market got to parity with US tech hub comp.

ttul 4y ago
For sure. Amazon will pay $300K in Vancouver for a DevOps role. That’s just one data point, but I can tell you it has never looked this good by half. The pandemic changed everything.
- potatolicious 4y ago
  I wouldn't discount the role of tightening US immigration policy either. Starting with the last administration H-1B admissions plummeted: processing times and rejection rates skyrocketed. It's now dicier than ever to come to the US on a H-1B visa. And despite rhetoric to the contrary the current administration seems intent on upholding these changes - processing for H-1Bs is still nowhere near historical norms. It used to be that major tech cos would "park" people in Canada to wait for their US visas to clear. I suspect these changes are causing companies to rethink the "wait for US visas" part of the sentence. The more people FAANG parks in Canadian cities the more we will see FAANG-type compensation in those cities.
  - ttul 4y ago
    And it’s not just FAANG. Silicon Valley seems to have discovered that Canadian universities churn out a lot of skilled graduates - many who come from third countries via generous student visas. Many valley based startups have opened offices in Vancouver, Toronto, etc. and are paying great salaries not much removed from valley pay levels.
- gnicholas 4y ago
  How does the exchange rate and tax rate differences affect the take-home pay comparison?

jollybean 4y ago

" Canada was the place to be for working in film/tv , visual effects and animation in terms of jobs" No it wasn't. That such a glib Canadian thing to say. There are some decent jobs in those fields - but they are not even close to the kinds of jobs available in the US. For some animation jobs - it can be a bit closer. But for anything else, no, Toronto/Van/Montreal is a 'lesser cost centre' for some labour, that's it. Finally - most of this boils down to money. If someone can double their salary by going south they will.

dagmx 4y ago
Ironically, I think your comment is a very glib American thing to say. You reduced the entire Canadian market to just being cheaper, which was perhaps true in the height of tax breaks, but that doesn't negate the size of the industry in Canada is massive. There is significantly more VFX/animation studio work in Canada. I feel like you both insulted my comment, then proceeded to do the thing you suggested my comment did. it feels like projection.
- jollybean 4y ago
  First, I'm Canadian, second - "There is significantly more VFX/animation studio work in Canada." - coming from an 'industry adjacent' situation (but not in the industry) - I would higly doubt that. I don't think you realize just how big the USA is, and that 'Entertainment' is one of their core industries. 'More Jobs Per Capita' - yes - that's entirely plausible. Canada is often much better than the US on so many 'Per Capita' things. But they are probably solid middle class jobs - which is fine - not the executive/leadership and high paying jobs.
  - dagmx 4y ago
    Well either way your comment was glib and seems to completely ignore the specifics of which industries I mentioned. I didn't say all of entertainment. I was very specific about the subsection of the industry. Outside of DWA, WDAS and Pixar, the majority of animation and VFX work for feature and TV has moved to Canada or Australia. Yes there are bigger entertainment industries in the US. That wasn't what I said, and you're getting hung up on some pedantic nonsense that is fully of your own creation.

StayTrue 4y ago

My Canadian startup was acquired by a silicon valley company. They definitely did not pay US rates. They referred to our office as Bangalore of the North.

dagmx 4y ago
That's a shame. I've been part of acquisitions of Canadian companies when I was still in the Bay Area. Other than conversion rates, we didn't price Canadian companies differently than the US acquisitions.

gxh8N 4y ago

My girlfriend from Vancouver is moving to the states to live with me. In trying to find a job for her, whenever potential employers hear that she is Canadian, they immediately want to offer remote for her from Vancouver at the local salary rate, which is half what it would be in the US.

lewisl9029 4y ago

Uh... I have a less rosy picture of the situation. To brain drain Canadian talent, US companies used to need to convince people to physically move to a different country, a rather tall order, but even then people were leaving in droves. Now, they can brain drain Canadian talent with practically 0 barriers through remote work. Unless Canadian employers are willing and able to adapt quickly and start offering truly globally competitive salaries (and historically they have proven to be utterly incapable of this), I think this is game over.

dagmx 4y ago
That's a fair view on it if you're viewing it from a domestic growth. I was viewing it from the perspective of an employee. Many of these companies are opening up proper Canadian divisions however, though it does price out many Canadian headquartered companies in the process.