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I'm not only terrified, but petrified...literally! After getting rejected for years, I have decided to stop from even trying. It has cost me a lot of pain, ph

I'm not only terrified, but petrified...literally! After getting rejected for years, I have decided to stop from even trying. It has cost me a lot of pain, physical and psychological, not to mention the emotional damage. You know, panic attacks, stomach ulcer, colitis...the whole package! I have been telling this for years, but people think I lost my mind :/ I'm fortunate enough that more and more friends that are around my age (40+) or even younger have noticed the same thing and don't know what to do. I have no idea how to interview anymore; whatever I say it's either wrong or not enough. * If I speak more than they want, I'm wrong. * If I say near nothing, again I'm wrong. * If I say EXACTLY what they want to hear, they go "meh". * If I show my skills, I'm considered a smart ass. * If I don't show my actual skills, again I'm considered an asshole for hiding my knowledge from them, therefore I'm considered untrustworthy. ...I could go on and on and on and on, but this is your "Ask HN", not mine LOL! Feel free to check my submissions and my comments on related topics and you will find you are not alone in this. Virtual hugs my friend, we are together in this. Update: I forgot to mention that I have a CS diploma which is basically worthless...trust me, the toilet paper you use has higher value than my degree, HA!

hellohowareu 4y ago
You have a web portfolio, a github account with a few open source projects, and an active linkedin presence? That's what lands me jobs. no tech degree. just a couple classes in statistcs & databases under my belt. other than that, self-taught via online resources (videos, ebooks, forums, chatrooms)
- 7speter 4y ago
  I recently went to a virtual meetup for help on a project and the organizer got mad at me for using a tutorial to scaffold my project and called me out on the call. I was so frustrated by the ridiculousness that I just immediately signed off and left the meetup group and discord.
  - stefanos82 4y ago
    Oh I have a better story! :D An HR called me after a 1 and a half years I originally applied for a C++ position at a FinTech company to ask me whether I'm still interested in it. I replied "of course I am!" and she asked me to send her my resume, updated. As soon as she received it, she immediately replied back "but here says you are an Assistant Systems Administrator; how about to arrange you another position that is closer to what you are currently doing?". I was like "WOMAN! Read the darn line after what you read that says 'Teaching assistant (C++) during office hours', I have the necessary experience! Are you playing with me now, why did you even call me in the first place?!". I nearly exploded from my nerves and she didn't like it. She started shouting at me and closed the phone. I checked her name online; lo and behold, the very first result Google returned was her (age 23) thanking an Anger Management Center for talking courses how to handle her wrath(!) with annoying customers. I was speechless! You let a young, fresh graduate without previous experience to handle the most difficult department of your work...at a freaking FinTech company that deals with billions of dollars at a global scale? Things have gone very wrong at so many levels...GLOBALLY!
    - ikt 4y ago
      > I nearly exploded from my nerves Why? Why not just calmly explain the situation? Why let your emotion get the best of you? I saw you disregard someone else's advice as well earlier, I think you're forgetting that you have to mould yourself around what the market wants not the other way around.
      - throwawayvibes 4y ago
    - 7speter 4y ago
      Probably a nepotism hire
    - listenallyall 4y ago
      To be fair, you should probably have multiple versions of your resume, each customized for a specific type of job. If this was a C++ job, relevant experience should have been the first item, not SysAdmin. Are there inexperienced (or experienced, but still dumb) HR people? Of course. But knowing that, you didn't present yourself in the best light to overcome a predictable obstacle.
- stefanos82 4y ago
  * Not everyone is for web development, even though I'm very fascinated with back-end development and solving sophisticated problems that are considered unsolvable. I have a Computer Science degree (a 2-year diploma, which basically is nothing comparing it to a bachelor's or a master's) and still cannot please them. * My important projects were in-house for certain clients under NDA, which ties my hands and cannot demonstrate any of them. * I had LinkedIn account and closed it after getting spammed countless of times. I have informed the company at that time and instead of fixing my problem, they would start sending me their own ads for Linkedin Learning courses instead LOL!
  - fy20 4y ago
    I hope you don't take this the wrong way, I mean it in a good way, but I want to point out that reading this comment you come across as someone who is difficult to work with. If you gave me that impression in an interview I'd probably pass on you too, no matter how great your technical skills are. The most important skill for me is how you can work in a team (what education you have isn't at all important). I'm not Google or Facebook, but there's a million people like me When I ask you to tell me about your experience, I understand that you can't tell me all the details, but even with an NDA you can tell me roughly what you did. Maybe if you worked on a secret project for Apple that hasn't yet launched it would be different - but if you gave that as an answer I'd understand and move onto other questions. If you just said "it's under NDA" I'd assume you are trying to hide something. Who cares if LinkedIn wants to spam you? The only purpose of it is to help me look attractive to potential employees, so I keep it up to date but don't pay any attention to it. I turned off all email notifications and they don't email me, but if they did I'd just set up a filter. I get hundreds of recruiters spamming me, but that's just what recruiters do. I ignore them and get on with my life. Interviewing is a skill, and it's something you can learn, so focus on that. Apply for jobs that you don't even care about just for the interview experience, maybe you'll get an offer and decide to take it :-) Skip FAANG or whatever requires you do 7 technical interviews where you reverse red black trees of doubly linked lists, go for smaller companies where the interview is typically just a few informal chats.
    - stefanos82 4y ago
AussieWog93 4y ago
>I have no idea how to interview anymore; whatever I say it's either wrong or not enough. Consider it like dating. It doesn't matter what you say as much as it matters whether or not you're compatible.
- stefanos82 4y ago
  Dating can be easier, at least for me; with interviews no one can figure out how to make it work...
7speter 4y ago
Yep, I totally identify with you. I saved up and bought an nvidia gpu and am about to start learn about video editing to see if I can get into that field. I’m pretty tired of getting laughed at and the rampant dishonesty.
bitwize 4y ago
I once interviewed with a company that I really liked. And they liked me. They were doing really weird abstruse AI shit, heavy algorithmic stuff. The head guy was a Ph.D. in whatever field they were in, and I interviewed with him and some really good engineers. The questions they asked were HARD algorithmic questions, right up there with Google. I was a nervous wreck throughout. They passed. They were kind enough to offer feedback. They said they liked my responses and felt I had the right skill set, but I didn't sound confident enough. Which is just... how am I supposed to feel, in an interview deliberately designed to be challenging, going up against the top minds in their field? Am I supposed to wear a douchey, smarmy grin throughout this process and act like this whole deal ain't no thing? Maybe I really wasn't smart enough for the job because they're looking for someone with the smarts and background to solve their problems without breaking a sweat. Again, if you are not the exact perfect cinnamon roll of a candidate the company is looking for, do not expect to be hired.
- joeman1000 4y ago
  It’s all about shucking and jiving and I fucking hate it. I’m like you: a nervous wreck for interviews and tests. I’m capable as fuck /when I have time/! Just not with someone pressing and judging me.
- senorsmile 4y ago
  Sounds like you dodged a bullet to me.
senorsmile 4y ago
The way I like to tackle this is to interview sporadically, at least every other year when I have a stable job and I'm not actually looking. It takes the pressure off and if nothing else, can be useful to just practice my interviewing skills. When they ask why I'm looking, I tell them the truth... that I'm happy where I'm at but just looking around and that you never know what opportunity is out there. I don't see this as a question loyalty. You don't owe the company you work for anything any way. But it's a matter of you making life choices on your terms, and when you deal with the type of anxiety that I do, you have to take control lest it control you!
- com 4y ago
  You’re right! I advise my direct reports and people new to work that you should seriously interview every six months. As a manager, the one-to-ones we have when my people are interviewing are much more goal oriented and concrete, and give me actionable information to help them get more out of their career. That typically helps them, our team and our shared mission. Sometimes it leads to departures, but they and I are conscious about why - we can’t always give them the work or the opportunities that they are seeking. Sometimes it’s remuneration; it’s either a useful datapoint which can be matched and used for salary adjustments through our org, or a unicorn offer which we can’t match in cash, but which offers a discussion about growth and maybe their own priorities. In nearly all cases it’s just a huge win.
  - ajmurmann 4y ago
    It's really interesting to me that you aren't getting more in trouble with this just due to salary alone. I know Netflix follows your approach and I think it's fabulous. However, Netflix also doesn't have paybands and their strategy is to see the other offers as the candidate's true market value and then pay them slightly above that. If you cannot do that, I would have assumed this to be a certain way to lose your top employees quickly.
    - com 4y ago
      Once salary has reached a certain point, the total compensation, benefits and professional satisfaction or CV opportunities as well as healthy work/life balance, in addition to social environment - all start taking on more weight. People do leave for pure pay concerns, but it’s not that simple for many. Also: this strategy might not work so well in places where future financial security isn’t so assured, as where I am. Thinking about the USA or some developing countries where I grew up - piling up capital is so critical to survive surprises ranging from illness to state failure, so ymmv.
ddanv 4y ago
Why do you need to reread something a bunch of times? Could it be lousy working memory?
ddanv 4y ago
I saw your past comments. You should check if you don't have ADHD. The treatment fixed me!
- stefanos82 4y ago
  Well, they have diagnosed me with HSP (Highly Sensitive Person) with symptoms of Autism Spectrum Disorder. I changed my nutrition, plus some other bad habits which reduced its intense; now I am way better than past times.
sage76 4y ago
> I have no idea how to interview anymore; Same. Anytime someone says the market is hot, I get irrationally angry. It's probably hot for kids in their 20s with ex FAANG experience. Not so much for the rest of us.
- meowfly 4y ago
  It's clearly not hot enough to remove leetcode interviews as part of the screening process. I changed jobs almost a year ago and almost every company I applied to had a leetcode section.
  - fendy3002 4y ago
    And the leetcode isn't easy either, even for regular / non high tech companies. I barely passed the test, and I'm confident that I'm at least around top 20-30% of programmer skill-wise with tons of free time and passion to program during my university. I can't imagine if my peers that's less fortunate or less passionate with programming to be able to pass.
- blitz_skull 4y ago
  No FAANG experience, only worked at 2-3 (very) small startups. I have basic JS / Web dev skills. Total of 6 YoE. I created a profile on dice.com and have gotten probably 20+ hiring manager-stage interviews so far. What industry / YoE / skillset combination do you have? Seems like full stack engineers are writing their checks these days.
  - sage76 4y ago
    Mostly ecommerce, but varied. 6 yoe. Backend/Python. I have applied to hundreds of places, grinded leetcode, studied advanced system design, and am near giving up. Becoming a famous actor is probably easier than this.
52-6F-62 4y ago
Unfortunately, it’s also like that working at some places—not just in the interview process. The day-to-day can be excruciating involving each of your bullet points inside of 8-10 hours, on repeat. There’s a lot more humourless bureaucracy than there is else it seems. It just gets packaged up in the popular mode. It’s kind of like the Vogon with slightly savvier marketing teams and a Patagonia jacket.
nullfield 4y ago
My manager has more or less decided that degrees are useless, given the failures that major, well-known universities are graduating these days, so… it’s not everyone, for those who are terrified of the people with degrees.

hellohowareu 4y ago

You have a web portfolio, a github account with a few open source projects, and an active linkedin presence? That's what lands me jobs. no tech degree. just a couple classes in statistcs & databases under my belt. other than that, self-taught via online resources (videos, ebooks, forums, chatrooms)

7speter 4y ago
I recently went to a virtual meetup for help on a project and the organizer got mad at me for using a tutorial to scaffold my project and called me out on the call. I was so frustrated by the ridiculousness that I just immediately signed off and left the meetup group and discord.
- stefanos82 4y ago
  Oh I have a better story! :D An HR called me after a 1 and a half years I originally applied for a C++ position at a FinTech company to ask me whether I'm still interested in it. I replied "of course I am!" and she asked me to send her my resume, updated. As soon as she received it, she immediately replied back "but here says you are an Assistant Systems Administrator; how about to arrange you another position that is closer to what you are currently doing?". I was like "WOMAN! Read the darn line after what you read that says 'Teaching assistant (C++) during office hours', I have the necessary experience! Are you playing with me now, why did you even call me in the first place?!". I nearly exploded from my nerves and she didn't like it. She started shouting at me and closed the phone. I checked her name online; lo and behold, the very first result Google returned was her (age 23) thanking an Anger Management Center for talking courses how to handle her wrath(!) with annoying customers. I was speechless! You let a young, fresh graduate without previous experience to handle the most difficult department of your work...at a freaking FinTech company that deals with billions of dollars at a global scale? Things have gone very wrong at so many levels...GLOBALLY!
  - ikt 4y ago
    > I nearly exploded from my nerves Why? Why not just calmly explain the situation? Why let your emotion get the best of you? I saw you disregard someone else's advice as well earlier, I think you're forgetting that you have to mould yourself around what the market wants not the other way around.
    - throwawayvibes 4y ago
  - 7speter 4y ago
    Probably a nepotism hire
  - listenallyall 4y ago
    To be fair, you should probably have multiple versions of your resume, each customized for a specific type of job. If this was a C++ job, relevant experience should have been the first item, not SysAdmin. Are there inexperienced (or experienced, but still dumb) HR people? Of course. But knowing that, you didn't present yourself in the best light to overcome a predictable obstacle.
stefanos82 4y ago
* Not everyone is for web development, even though I'm very fascinated with back-end development and solving sophisticated problems that are considered unsolvable. I have a Computer Science degree (a 2-year diploma, which basically is nothing comparing it to a bachelor's or a master's) and still cannot please them. * My important projects were in-house for certain clients under NDA, which ties my hands and cannot demonstrate any of them. * I had LinkedIn account and closed it after getting spammed countless of times. I have informed the company at that time and instead of fixing my problem, they would start sending me their own ads for Linkedin Learning courses instead LOL!
- fy20 4y ago
  I hope you don't take this the wrong way, I mean it in a good way, but I want to point out that reading this comment you come across as someone who is difficult to work with. If you gave me that impression in an interview I'd probably pass on you too, no matter how great your technical skills are. The most important skill for me is how you can work in a team (what education you have isn't at all important). I'm not Google or Facebook, but there's a million people like me When I ask you to tell me about your experience, I understand that you can't tell me all the details, but even with an NDA you can tell me roughly what you did. Maybe if you worked on a secret project for Apple that hasn't yet launched it would be different - but if you gave that as an answer I'd understand and move onto other questions. If you just said "it's under NDA" I'd assume you are trying to hide something. Who cares if LinkedIn wants to spam you? The only purpose of it is to help me look attractive to potential employees, so I keep it up to date but don't pay any attention to it. I turned off all email notifications and they don't email me, but if they did I'd just set up a filter. I get hundreds of recruiters spamming me, but that's just what recruiters do. I ignore them and get on with my life. Interviewing is a skill, and it's something you can learn, so focus on that. Apply for jobs that you don't even care about just for the interview experience, maybe you'll get an offer and decide to take it :-) Skip FAANG or whatever requires you do 7 technical interviews where you reverse red black trees of doubly linked lists, go for smaller companies where the interview is typically just a few informal chats.
  - stefanos82 4y ago

AussieWog93 4y ago

>I have no idea how to interview anymore; whatever I say it's either wrong or not enough. Consider it like dating. It doesn't matter what you say as much as it matters whether or not you're compatible.

stefanos82 4y ago
Dating can be easier, at least for me; with interviews no one can figure out how to make it work...

7speter 4y ago

Yep, I totally identify with you. I saved up and bought an nvidia gpu and am about to start learn about video editing to see if I can get into that field. I’m pretty tired of getting laughed at and the rampant dishonesty.

bitwize 4y ago

I once interviewed with a company that I really liked. And they liked me. They were doing really weird abstruse AI shit, heavy algorithmic stuff. The head guy was a Ph.D. in whatever field they were in, and I interviewed with him and some really good engineers. The questions they asked were HARD algorithmic questions, right up there with Google. I was a nervous wreck throughout. They passed. They were kind enough to offer feedback. They said they liked my responses and felt I had the right skill set, but I didn't sound confident enough. Which is just... how am I supposed to feel, in an interview deliberately designed to be challenging, going up against the top minds in their field? Am I supposed to wear a douchey, smarmy grin throughout this process and act like this whole deal ain't no thing? Maybe I really wasn't smart enough for the job because they're looking for someone with the smarts and background to solve their problems without breaking a sweat. Again, if you are not the exact perfect cinnamon roll of a candidate the company is looking for, do not expect to be hired.

joeman1000 4y ago
It’s all about shucking and jiving and I fucking hate it. I’m like you: a nervous wreck for interviews and tests. I’m capable as fuck /when I have time/! Just not with someone pressing and judging me.
senorsmile 4y ago
Sounds like you dodged a bullet to me.

senorsmile 4y ago

The way I like to tackle this is to interview sporadically, at least every other year when I have a stable job and I'm not actually looking. It takes the pressure off and if nothing else, can be useful to just practice my interviewing skills. When they ask why I'm looking, I tell them the truth... that I'm happy where I'm at but just looking around and that you never know what opportunity is out there. I don't see this as a question loyalty. You don't owe the company you work for anything any way. But it's a matter of you making life choices on your terms, and when you deal with the type of anxiety that I do, you have to take control lest it control you!

com 4y ago
You’re right! I advise my direct reports and people new to work that you should seriously interview every six months. As a manager, the one-to-ones we have when my people are interviewing are much more goal oriented and concrete, and give me actionable information to help them get more out of their career. That typically helps them, our team and our shared mission. Sometimes it leads to departures, but they and I are conscious about why - we can’t always give them the work or the opportunities that they are seeking. Sometimes it’s remuneration; it’s either a useful datapoint which can be matched and used for salary adjustments through our org, or a unicorn offer which we can’t match in cash, but which offers a discussion about growth and maybe their own priorities. In nearly all cases it’s just a huge win.
- ajmurmann 4y ago
  It's really interesting to me that you aren't getting more in trouble with this just due to salary alone. I know Netflix follows your approach and I think it's fabulous. However, Netflix also doesn't have paybands and their strategy is to see the other offers as the candidate's true market value and then pay them slightly above that. If you cannot do that, I would have assumed this to be a certain way to lose your top employees quickly.
  - com 4y ago
    Once salary has reached a certain point, the total compensation, benefits and professional satisfaction or CV opportunities as well as healthy work/life balance, in addition to social environment - all start taking on more weight. People do leave for pure pay concerns, but it’s not that simple for many. Also: this strategy might not work so well in places where future financial security isn’t so assured, as where I am. Thinking about the USA or some developing countries where I grew up - piling up capital is so critical to survive surprises ranging from illness to state failure, so ymmv.

ddanv 4y ago

Why do you need to reread something a bunch of times? Could it be lousy working memory?

ddanv 4y ago

I saw your past comments. You should check if you don't have ADHD. The treatment fixed me!

stefanos82 4y ago
Well, they have diagnosed me with HSP (Highly Sensitive Person) with symptoms of Autism Spectrum Disorder. I changed my nutrition, plus some other bad habits which reduced its intense; now I am way better than past times.

sage76 4y ago

> I have no idea how to interview anymore; Same. Anytime someone says the market is hot, I get irrationally angry. It's probably hot for kids in their 20s with ex FAANG experience. Not so much for the rest of us.

meowfly 4y ago
It's clearly not hot enough to remove leetcode interviews as part of the screening process. I changed jobs almost a year ago and almost every company I applied to had a leetcode section.
- fendy3002 4y ago
  And the leetcode isn't easy either, even for regular / non high tech companies. I barely passed the test, and I'm confident that I'm at least around top 20-30% of programmer skill-wise with tons of free time and passion to program during my university. I can't imagine if my peers that's less fortunate or less passionate with programming to be able to pass.
blitz_skull 4y ago
No FAANG experience, only worked at 2-3 (very) small startups. I have basic JS / Web dev skills. Total of 6 YoE. I created a profile on dice.com and have gotten probably 20+ hiring manager-stage interviews so far. What industry / YoE / skillset combination do you have? Seems like full stack engineers are writing their checks these days.
- sage76 4y ago
  Mostly ecommerce, but varied. 6 yoe. Backend/Python. I have applied to hundreds of places, grinded leetcode, studied advanced system design, and am near giving up. Becoming a famous actor is probably easier than this.

52-6F-62 4y ago

Unfortunately, it’s also like that working at some places—not just in the interview process. The day-to-day can be excruciating involving each of your bullet points inside of 8-10 hours, on repeat. There’s a lot more humourless bureaucracy than there is else it seems. It just gets packaged up in the popular mode. It’s kind of like the Vogon with slightly savvier marketing teams and a Patagonia jacket.

nullfield 4y ago

My manager has more or less decided that degrees are useless, given the failures that major, well-known universities are graduating these days, so… it’s not everyone, for those who are terrified of the people with degrees.