13 ms·

I Trained My TikTok

156 points by pbw 4y ago

eckza 4y ago
> powering human-to-human interaction at a scale and speed we’ve never seen before Clearly, this is working very well, and more of this is the solution to all of the problems that we're facing as a result of hooking four or five of every single person on the planet's belongings to the internet and connecting them all together.
blahedo 4y ago
Yes! I've been saying versions of this for a while to people who dismiss Tiktok as just teenager dance and prank videos: > If a video seemed repetitive or shallow or snacky in any way, I skipped it, and I tried hard to do this within the first few seconds..... if a video seemed nourishing or worthwhile, but was a bit slow-paced or challenging, I stuck with it... Quickly my For You page was transformed. I saw long thoughtful videos... I haven't seen teenagers dancing or prank videos for months, and while it's far from perfect (in particular, they have some moderation problems), I learn a lot from the videos I watch and get a lot of value from it.
- pbw 4y ago
  OP here. That's great to hear. Yeah it's kind of interesting when people complain "TikTok only has teen girls dancing" or some similar niche, without them realizing they are basically revealing what they tend to watch. Although one flaw I think I'm hearing, with other social networks as well, is people see shock-content and cannot look away, and then they get more of that. Which seems like a flaw. Also, I find it's a skill game to very quickly detect a video is not worthwhile and skip it; it's often not easy, people work really really hard to grab your attention.
  - ffhhj 4y ago
    > I find it's a skill game to very quickly detect a video is not worthwhile and skip it Is there a name for this behavior in which a company decides how their system should work to make it easier for the user, but actually makes usage harder, and the company stands with its arms crossed for years never understanding what the user really needs, like in this case a simple "don't show me more/I want more" buttons and a little history list to up/down vote? Usage blindness? Distortion field?
    - amatecha 4y ago
      I feel like the phrase "optimizing for engagement" summarizes it, but doesn't quite capture the self-defeating "making things worse for actual people" aspect.
  - lilyball 4y ago
    You don't need to detect it quickly. TikTok lets you explicitly say "Not Interested" on a video, which is really handy if you end up watching too much of it while trying to figure out what the video is about.
  - wruza 4y ago
    what they tend to watch Human interests are versatile, but that’s what you look at first time opening it. I think youtube does the same – my decade old feed is nothing like rage/news/pop/teens – but most of us have no patience to train it. Ideally I’d prefer switching between “moods” on the frontpage, where predefined options would be like “I feel like astronomy”, “I feel like laughing” or “I feel like watching teen girls dancing”. All in good time. The problem is the stupid algos think that I’m an invariable blockhead 24/7, because some ai counter says so.
- radu_floricica 4y ago
  I miss dancing videos. I make a point of liking any slutty girl I see just to keep the dopamine hits up. But yeah, to get there it takes discipline and deliberate action. Any action (full view, like, share, favorite) is now a mix of "is it worth having this in my feed", "does the creator deserves a like", "do I enjoy this enough to like" and yeah, a good measure of keeping the fun in the mix.
g42gregory 4y ago
It took me a while to train my TikTok as well. No celebrities, no entertainment of any kind. Eventually, it has become a very valuable tool that I use once a couple of days. I am amazed that TikTok algorithms let me actually do it. Very big difference from Amazon videos and YouTube, where I feel that they are trying to shove the content, they want me to see, down my throat. This is one of the main reasons I completely cancelled Netflix. I ended up buying $600 worth of long-form products from the TikTok content providers that I watch, without any advertising from them. I am guessing that letting customers watch what they want works out as a business model. I suspect that my experience is not the norm, though.
- pbw 4y ago
  OP here. My guess is the vast majority of TikTok users don't realize how much control they have over its contents, and thus they end up watching mostly attention-grabbing fluff. I think even they will stumble on good meaningful stuff, but it won't be that often. But yes, I've find with effort it's a great resource. The best one for short-form videos that I know of.
  - g42gregory 4y ago
    I agree. I found that the process of training TikTok requires self-disciple and self-control and it was not easy in the beginning. I just marvel that the TikTok actually responded to this, unlike other solutions that basically don't care about your feedback. I wonder why that is? I feel that there is a huge manual override in the Google/Netflix/Amazon algorithms. In TikTok, I feel like I am having a relationship with Artificial Intelligence. It feels dangerous. If you lose control, it will eat you up alive and waste tremendous amount of your time. But if you can control it, it will deliver value.
  - closedloop129 4y ago
    How do you break into the good content? Where do you get the first seeds? I can't ad weight to interesting videos if no interesting video is suggested.
    - 4y ago
bryans 4y ago
> Does this mean someday humans will stop creating, that we’ll let the machines take over? I don’t think so, I think TikTok shows us humans crave to create as much as consume. I think this boils down to a desire for connection, rather than creation, and is part of a decade-long consumer shift toward seeking individual relationships and bucking corporate brands. TikTok, Twitch and YouTube are the primary channels for this, and it's on display 24/7. There are millions of people throwing mountains of money at individuals, not just for sharing their thoughts or talents, but by creating a genuine connection and community around that content. And that's the reason humans won't stop creating content no matter how great AI gets -- because it was never really about the content to begin with. However, AI will assuredly become the dominant form of entertainment at some point, as the predictive capabilities alone would allow for flawless content suggestion for any given situation. And that's before the inevitability of generating content indistinguishable from anything Hollywood or Nashville can produce, including online personalities that mimic human behavior well enough to create the same "genuine" connections I mentioned in the first paragraph.
- kovek 4y ago
  Imagine if an AI could simulate(/emulate?) a person. What if it could simulate(/emulate?) a community. Some people are almost becoming friends with AI already
  - bryans 4y ago
    With current technology, I think it would actually be somewhat simple to create an ASMR channel, for example, with generated content that only shows realistic hands manipulating objects, accompanied by a bot that variably responds to comments in a method which conveys gratitude, and invites everyone to a Discord where the bot also maintains sporadic and jovial communication. Instant community, and none would be the wiser.
qaid 4y ago
I am in the minority here but I also love TikTok for the same reason. I trained it to deliver content that aligns with my interests. In order to do this, I had to consciously use it, being aware of (how I think) the algorithm works. I’d even force myself to watch videos I didn’t like if the subject was highly interesting me and I wasn’t getting enough of that type of content. Using TikTok in this way frequently inspires me to be better The type of content I receive with this account is extremely different than another that I use when I’m on “autopilot.”
- thinkingemote 4y ago
  But you didnt train it. It trained itself to you. Its not yours its theirs. it might sound like just a way of speech or semantics but its a fundamental difference. That users think the application is their own creation is an intentional effect from the developers. It's like Apple in a way. A brand is not just a thing, it's part of your identity. Tiktok becomes a (e.g. small, frivolous) part of your very self.
  - radu_floricica 4y ago
    If course it's a fundamental difference. It's just irrelevant for most purposes.
teej 4y ago
TikTok is the only social platform where you can reliably train the algorithm and it sticks. On Twitter, no amount of curation, mutes, or blocks will save you from screenshots of content you don’t want to see. On Reddit, you rely entirely up to the mods of a subreddit. Once a subreddit gets too popular, the submission rate overwhelms volunteer resources. Facebook is just garbage.
- pbw 4y ago
  I agree TikTok is doing something different from the other guys. The amazing thing is that it's been out for 5 years and no one has copied what it does. Although I'd guess the algorithm has gotten a lot better over time as well, so it might be a moving target for the others.
  - throwaway290 4y ago
    I don't know if anyone in this thread uses YouTube, but its algorithm is insanely quick to adapt and videos you see on home page and in recommendations entirely depend on what you have watched before. Watch a video, see your home page change; watch a ton and it will reflect your preferences. (It also makes an attempt to list the topics it thinks you prefer and offers additional separate home page for each, as well as one for videos not matching any topic but still possibly of interest to you.) Everything about TikTok's algorithmic malleability can be said about YouTube, so I am confused as to why this is news to anyone. One difference is that YT also has longer videos. Unlike fixed-length blurbs of TT, this increases the challenge for recommendation algorithms, but I welcome this heterogeneity.
    - jazzyjackson 4y ago
      YouTube's recommendation must be device dependent or something, because I only use it through AppleTV or as a Playstation App and the entire page is like 15 or 20 videos repeated over and over, like sometimes it will suggest the same video in two different places on the screen.
      - 4y ago
eric4smith 4y ago
TikTok is a cancer on the universe. (In terms of converting its users into the version of the people on Wall-E). -- Go ahead Google "Wall-E people". I thought Instagram was bad. Trained or not, there is nothing good about scrolling through stuff for every moment when you're bored. Boredom is nature's way of making the universe go forward. And it's best when its channeled into creative, industrious or thoughtful pursuits. Instead we have channeled Boredom into watching barely clad teens dance, or women complain about dating misadventures. And the paradoxical thing about it. Is that the creators vs viewers ratio is still 99% viewers to 1% creator. Creators are the ones that have channeled their boredom (however misplaced) into something that others watch. But then all of this is human nature anyway. And perhaps I'm railing about nothing. Flame away!
- KVFinn 4y ago
  >I thought Instagram was bad. >Instead we have channeled Boredom into watching barely clad teens dance, or women complain about dating misadventures. If this is what you see on your TikTok, it's because those are the videos you lingered on the longest. Pro-Tip: Never 'hate watch' on TikTok.
  - Jensson 4y ago
    But that is a huge problem with the service. On YouTube I can search for whatever topic or video I want and find high quality videos on interesting topics instantly, so no need to train any algorithm to get good content. There is no hook in TikTok unless you actually like the default feed, since there is no good way to find anything else without first wading through all those default videos. Edit: Not sure why I was downvoted, but I really can't get into TikTok. I went there, the default feed was 100% uninteresting, I wont wade through that for a week looking for videos that might be there. I searched for some topics, for example "Warhammer", it is a very popular topic and it would be interesting to find more of that, but the search didn't turn up a single video about it. So I don't really see what I am supposed to do then, I am sure they have at least some warhammer videos but if it takes hours or days or weeks of work to find them then I don't see why I should bother with TikTok at all.
- 4y ago
elvis10ten 4y ago
TikTok is just way too “thirsty” — they try too hard to get me hooked which is a massive turnoff. I have the app. I only open it to upload videos. Then I ignore it and its notifications. Instagram works well for me. I have “trained” it to recommend fitness, football, & comedy. I go to search, watch what’s on the first page without scrolling, and then I’m out.
- TranquilMarmot 4y ago
  Sometimes I feel like it knows which videos I'll like and don't like and it will purposefully show me 10 videos that are "meh" that I skip through quickly and then 1 or 2 videos that are spot-on (funny, intellectual, etc.) which makes it feel a LOT like a Skinner Box. Keep pulling the lever until you get something good, and all the bad stuff in between makes the good stuff seem that much better.
  - pbw 4y ago
    People think you get dopamine hits when you find cool stimulating things. You actually get a steady drip while seeking, it’s what keeps you transfixed looking for the next thing. And as this shows a variable reward gives you a stronger drip: https://liveinnovation.org/dopamine-more-than-pleasure-the-secret-is-the-anticipation-of-a-reward/ https://liveinnovation.org/dopamine-more-than-pleasure-the-s... I figure a big challenge for TT is they must send you less good stuff to rate it. They probably hold off doing that until you appear hooked. You wouldn’t want a new user to get a bizarre/lame video with 5 views.
mrfusion 4y ago
How do the like and follow actions affect the algorithm? From a training perspective when is it good to do?
- pbw 4y ago
  I don't know how it all works. However one thing I will sometimes do is like a video but not watch it to the end. What I'm thinking in that case is this is good content, but not something I really want to watch. Like a musician that I want to encourage, but just don't feel like watching to the end. I suspect TikTok "understands" that situation. I'm tend to not follow. I'm not sure how that factors in, except obviously it populates your Following page.
asadlionpk 4y ago
I wish the model could be downloadable, so I can just download this user's model/config, load it up in my TikTok, and experience their TikTok experience without having to retrain my own TikTok. It would be fun to follow these 'models' instead of the actual Algorithm, so I can easily view the world through this individual (or businesses ;) ) "lens".
- noman-land 4y ago
  This is a neat idea. It's almost like following someone's brain.
  - nicksiscoe 4y ago
    Random thought dump here.. it’s kind of crazy how we all discuss the implications of the internet and social media on society and culture whilst all seeing dramatically different “versions” of the internet The TikTok/Twitter/Instagram that I know is totally different than the version you’re familiar with. Dropping into your feeds would give me a totally different impression of what those platforms are Basically, the way everyone mentally models and perceives these platforms is unique. YouTube in my brain is literally a different application than the YouTube in your brain We’re probably really underestimating the impact of these differences on the way we view the world around us
    - numpad0 4y ago
      Add Google Search to that list. Google Search for my IP is full of SEO spams but not necessarily for everyone it seems. True insanity it is.
    - delusional 4y ago
      > We’re probably really underestimating the impact of these differences on the way we view the world around us I don't think we're really underestimating it that badly. If you participate in the discourse around these platforms you'll find a discussion that very much understands and centers the mechanism over the outcome. You'll find researchers replicating what their subjects see on TikTok, or lamenting the tendency of the YouTube algorithm to lead people down the alt-right pipeline. When you see people complaining about specific content. It's either a surface level analysis, or rooted in wanting to puncture the pipeline. I think It's pretty clear that interested experts are very much aware of the uniquely multifaceted nature of these mega-brands. Even if the general public is yet to catch up completely.
neither_color 4y ago
Quickly my For You page was transformed. I saw long thoughtful videos on motivation, psychology, science, and philosophy. I listened to excerpts of lectures on Stoicism or Zen Buddhism, and speeches by enigmatic Indian meditation gurus. It figured out I was a software engineer and showed me many jokes or insights about work. At one point I was hunting for a job and TikTok started showing me interview tips. I witnessed drawings and paintings and animations by countless visual artists. I found myself zooming through trippy 3D fractals while listening to Alan Watts. I appreciate the screenshots because they show a side of TikTok I wasn't aware of. I've still up to this point managed to avoid ever installing or browsing TikTok. The few tiktoks I've seen were clips forwarded to me. I'm sure, like Twitter, it's full of awful content by default that you can learn to filter and fine tune until it feeds you good content, but that's exactly why I'm avoiding it. I never even had a twitter account until 2020(that I started following out of covid lockdown boredom) and 3 months later I was becoming really heated politically and felt like America was collapsing. Reading about a new social network is like reading about a new flavor of crack. I'm sure it feels nice but No Thanks!
guerrilla 4y ago
I tried training it in a very specific way too. I only liked and finished watching videos that made me smile or laugh. I was perfectly disciplined with this but in the end, it only kind of worked. I gave it about a week or so. Maybe it takes longer? Or maybe it can't figure out what I like and can only do themes/topics?
- pbw 4y ago
  OP here. Once trained I still get videos I don’t want. So the mix is much better, but you are never totally done training. Videos that make you smile or laugh might be a hard criteria for it to learn. Compared to specific interests like “wood working” or “astronomy”.
winternett 4y ago
We try to act like the algorithms are these flawless implementations of intelligence, but they're often not. Most social apps right now are run like bad casinos, where people get exploited often for money and time... They prey on users in stealth from many angles, and now they even hand select who wins and who doesn't. Ask yourself why these companies need so many employees (psychology experts, PR teams, Lobbyists, Lawyers, Moderators, Product Owners, Developers, Financial Experts, etc) if the algorithm is the key factor at play... The algos are made with non transparent bias that we simply can't see, and that bias and disposition can be changed at any time to cover it's tracks... Bias which is often toxic and geared towards company profit over doing what's right. We only understand how damaging that bias is when it becomes a trend of kids destroying school bathrooms or when we find out people who projected an image of fame and wealth were actually completely faking the persona and unfortunately harming themselves as a result. I often rant about social media because it's really a system of rewards for bad behavior where only the platform ends up profiting most... It can also destroy respect and disregard cultures and encourage danger and self harm for others. The reason why most are complacent is because everyone is having a different experience on it... If you're suicidal, the algorithm floods you with dark content that makes you into a profitable news worthy story. If you're an "influencer", the algorithm floods you with tips to keep you working hard within the platform and encourages you to buy "essential" gear to boost your career (that pays VERY LITTLE in comparison to the time and money you spend on the influencer pursuit). In my opinion as a developer, most of the major app (TikTok, Instagram, FB, etc...) social algos are not designed any more with the intent of making sure you're entertained online, and they're bent on maximizing engagement and ad revenue for these companies at any cost... Understanding that first is the way to stay sane when using any of these apps/sites. Other than that I do enjoy doom scrolling through memes when I'm bored, it's kind of like a video game you don't have to really invest much into.
jollybean 4y ago
Say what you will but TT deserves acclaim for making something that's engaging not based on political toxicity. Twitter is constantly trying to trigger me with some 'bait' statement by someone on the side of an issue. Our entire media/political class seems to want to make statements that 'pop' which is basically 'taking a strong stand' on something. 'Base TikTok' - untrained and just the popular stuff is really trashy 'Island Boys' and 'Johnny Depp' - but 'trained' TT is reasonable. There's a lot of very interest creators out there.
- pbw 4y ago
  I’m amazed how seldom I see political posts on TT. I’m not really sure why that is. My Twitter is highly political even though I try to follow very few political people. Maybe the hurdle of making a video is just that much higher than typing in a few angry words?
  - jollybean 4y ago
    Algorithm doesn't favour it, and my bet is TT actively dissuades. It's China, they don't like political agitation.
moron4hire 4y ago
I used TikTok and posted videos on it for about three months last summer. I was mostly posting nature education stuff and replying to people's questions about math. I wasn't going gangbusters, but growth was positive and obvious. Certainly a lot faster than any other platform I've been on. Plus, the community is super interactive. Even as an upstart, I was getting replies from popular accounts to my replies to their posts. You can say just about anything about the content on TikTok. There's vapid stuff. There's funny stuff. There's informative stuff. There's insightful stuff. It's all there and you can easily shape your feed to whatever you want. But there's also a lot of really dark stuff. And by that I mean how TikTok themselves interact with people. I once got suspended for updating my profile to say I liked Star Trek. I'd randomly get content warnings and videos removed for "sexual" content for videos that didn't even contain any people. And I was only experiencing the tip of the iceberg. I saw several popular accounts get banned, often for "sexual content" or "harassment", of people who did nothing of the sort. And of course, appeals for review were always useless. There are a lot of hidden anti-features in TikTok, too. User accounts exist in different classes, based on follower count (undocumented, naturally). Certain features don't get unlocked until you hit a certain number of followers. I got high enough that I could post 3 minute videos, but I never got high enough that I was allowed to put a link to my website in my bio (that got me another suspension). New accounts get spread further, more often, to give you a dopamine boost of attention that you end up chasing with no insight into why your viewership is dwindling even though you're learning and posting better videos. Various hidden rate limits are in place that can trigger account suspensions if you do something like edit your bio too many times in a row (like, maybe cuz you're fixing a typo). There are shadow suspensions, too, where going over a certain quota of posts means your subsequent posts won't show up in anyone's feeds, which can happen easily if you're having fun with making reply chains. And always. Always the complete lack of human review. It became really clear that the "report user" button is being abused to brigade people off of the app. As I said, I saw several popular accounts get banned for trumped up charges, with some extremely worrying patterns emerging regarding the race, sex, and sexual orientation of said accounts (and never any of their content, that I could ever tell). TikTok is an amazing app and community. But TikTok is also an extremely terrible company. For that reason, I gave up on it, and I strongly discouraging getting started with it.
- 4y ago
account-5 4y ago
My take from just the comments in the thread, not the article, is that most people like social media or think there is some benefit in it for them. I, like some others here, am in the minority. HN is my only social network and I consider this more a forum. I am not on any social network as my opinion about them is they are tools to spy on you and waste your time. I am not disputing that there isn't some good stuff on these networks just that I'm not interested in being a product or wasting my time looking at trivial pish; I would also include training a social media AI system in this too. All power to you if you find benefit in these networks but I'm yet to come across anything worth the effort on them.
News-Dog 4y ago
>TikTok hashtag analysis toolset The tool helps to download posts and videos from TikTok for a given set of hashtags over a period of time. Users can create a growing database of posts for specific hashtags which can then be used for further hashtag analysis. It uses the tiktok-scraper Node package to download the posts and videos. tiktok-scraper : https://github.com/drawrowfly/tiktok-scraper https://github.com/drawrowfly/tiktok-scraper
daptaq 4y ago
My constant fear with TikTok is not whether or not you can train it, but whether you will realize when it has managed to train you.
FrozenVoid 4y ago
Youtube can be "Trained" (with a blank profile/container) into TikTok type content by repeatedly watching first recommended video and skipping videos in 2-3 secs.
- pbw 4y ago
  I visit my YouTube “home” screen on my TV and I like most of what’s on there. It finds good stuff. Unlike TikTok’s one video at a time with YT I’m scanning through dozens of thumbnails for what to watch.
idk1 4y ago
I have somehow managed to train my TikTok into showing me comedy, some of the best sketchs/comedy I've seen in the past year or two have been on TikTok. I feels to me a bit like watching stand-up in basements in the 90s. Loads and loads of raw comedic talent and a platform to them to do whatever they want quickly.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
ausbah 4y ago
the first move is getting "good" content out of your social media feeds, the second is to limit how much you watch them all together
thenerdhead 4y ago
There's many people saying that other platforms cannot be trained or at least they don't notice it. Well, that's the point. For you to not notice. You can see this firsthand by not following/subscribing/etc to anyone on these platforms and seeing the algorithm train and change as you slowly consume content. At a certain point, you will even have your default feed settings changed as if you were following a modest amount of people. Many platforms hide these feed settings by default so that you consume without realizing it. Some notable examples of this are Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and YouTube. You won't even notice you're being manipulated until you check your settings again. Ever wonder why certain things like stories, shorts, or reels all of a sudden are being shown from people you don't care about? Well, now ya know. The one thing I believe is "uplifting" about TikTok is that the power is being shifted to the individual creator rather than the big six media conglomerates. Instead of a couple hundred channels, there's thousands. But the problem with that is there is an infinite amount of content to be entertained with. America is already a big shopping mall with everyone holding out their credit cards. This makes more of these channels advertise even more shit we don't need in our lives with the impression that it's personal or everyday when the creator simply needs to survive and put food on the table too.
snowwrestler 4y ago
AI recommendation systems like TikTok can be great tools, if you have control over your own thinking. Control over one’s thoughts—metacognition, or thinking about your thinking—is an essential tool for advancing your life. It’s a huge focus of the formal education system, why teachers insist on “showing your work” and not just writing the answer down by itself. Understanding science is not just knowing that the mitochondria is the powerhouse of the cell, but understanding the system of thinking that led scientists to that conclusion. It’s also a huge focus of therapy, getting patients to recognize their own patterns of thinking so that they can decide whether or not to change them. Even corporate “EQ” training starts with getting people to recognize when they are feeling strong emotions and then think about why. Does TikTok by itself teach these skills? To me the answer seems obviously “no.” One can bring an analytical mind to TikTok, but does TikTok encourage analytical thinking? I don’t see how. It seems to me it is built to deliver an experience that is the exact opposite of analytical thinking. And this is why we worry about the kids on TikTok. Metacognition is one of the later patterns of thought to develop, and therefore something most kids struggle with in general.
- moron4hire 4y ago
  Remember when Google gave good results, you could find good stuff on Amazon, and Pandora played just the right music? I'd be interested to find out if TikTok's recommendation engine really is AI or if every other recommendation is corrupted by advertising money. I get the feeling that TikTok is still in growth stage, still acquiring users, and hasn't really turned the monetization funnel on yet. I suspect that the recommendations will get worse over time.
toss1 4y ago
I'd want various DIFFERENT trained curation sets - for different work and hobby activities, interests, and entertainment. I suppose that might be done by making several accounts, but it seems it should be a feature... like the Netflix [Who's Watching] or maybe [Select Mood]...?
jdnordy 4y ago
ahh, this is such a refreshing article. Social media is not the evil of all evils. What matters is how you use it. "The Algorithm" can be really good if you use it well. I benefit a lot from my engagement with these platforms from staying up-to-date on the news to blowing of steam after work to thinking about new and interesting thing. Instead of shouting, "Boo!" Why not talk about how to engage well?
pontifier 4y ago
In the story "Kiosk" by Bruce Sterling, a girl trains an AI powered jewelry tree by carefully selecting pieces that will move the product toward what she wants.

156 points by pbw 4y ago

> powering human-to-human interaction at a scale and speed we’ve never seen before Clearly, this is working very well, and more of this is the solution to all of the problems that we're facing as a result of hooking four or five of every single person on the planet's belongings to the internet and connecting them all together.

blahedo 4y ago

Yes! I've been saying versions of this for a while to people who dismiss Tiktok as just teenager dance and prank videos: > If a video seemed repetitive or shallow or snacky in any way, I skipped it, and I tried hard to do this within the first few seconds..... if a video seemed nourishing or worthwhile, but was a bit slow-paced or challenging, I stuck with it... Quickly my For You page was transformed. I saw long thoughtful videos... I haven't seen teenagers dancing or prank videos for months, and while it's far from perfect (in particular, they have some moderation problems), I learn a lot from the videos I watch and get a lot of value from it.

pbw 4y ago
OP here. That's great to hear. Yeah it's kind of interesting when people complain "TikTok only has teen girls dancing" or some similar niche, without them realizing they are basically revealing what they tend to watch. Although one flaw I think I'm hearing, with other social networks as well, is people see shock-content and cannot look away, and then they get more of that. Which seems like a flaw. Also, I find it's a skill game to very quickly detect a video is not worthwhile and skip it; it's often not easy, people work really really hard to grab your attention.
- ffhhj 4y ago
  > I find it's a skill game to very quickly detect a video is not worthwhile and skip it Is there a name for this behavior in which a company decides how their system should work to make it easier for the user, but actually makes usage harder, and the company stands with its arms crossed for years never understanding what the user really needs, like in this case a simple "don't show me more/I want more" buttons and a little history list to up/down vote? Usage blindness? Distortion field?
  - amatecha 4y ago
    I feel like the phrase "optimizing for engagement" summarizes it, but doesn't quite capture the self-defeating "making things worse for actual people" aspect.
- lilyball 4y ago
  You don't need to detect it quickly. TikTok lets you explicitly say "Not Interested" on a video, which is really handy if you end up watching too much of it while trying to figure out what the video is about.
- wruza 4y ago
  what they tend to watch Human interests are versatile, but that’s what you look at first time opening it. I think youtube does the same – my decade old feed is nothing like rage/news/pop/teens – but most of us have no patience to train it. Ideally I’d prefer switching between “moods” on the frontpage, where predefined options would be like “I feel like astronomy”, “I feel like laughing” or “I feel like watching teen girls dancing”. All in good time. The problem is the stupid algos think that I’m an invariable blockhead 24/7, because some ai counter says so.
radu_floricica 4y ago
I miss dancing videos. I make a point of liking any slutty girl I see just to keep the dopamine hits up. But yeah, to get there it takes discipline and deliberate action. Any action (full view, like, share, favorite) is now a mix of "is it worth having this in my feed", "does the creator deserves a like", "do I enjoy this enough to like" and yeah, a good measure of keeping the fun in the mix.

g42gregory 4y ago

It took me a while to train my TikTok as well. No celebrities, no entertainment of any kind. Eventually, it has become a very valuable tool that I use once a couple of days. I am amazed that TikTok algorithms let me actually do it. Very big difference from Amazon videos and YouTube, where I feel that they are trying to shove the content, they want me to see, down my throat. This is one of the main reasons I completely cancelled Netflix. I ended up buying $600 worth of long-form products from the TikTok content providers that I watch, without any advertising from them. I am guessing that letting customers watch what they want works out as a business model. I suspect that my experience is not the norm, though.

pbw 4y ago
OP here. My guess is the vast majority of TikTok users don't realize how much control they have over its contents, and thus they end up watching mostly attention-grabbing fluff. I think even they will stumble on good meaningful stuff, but it won't be that often. But yes, I've find with effort it's a great resource. The best one for short-form videos that I know of.
- g42gregory 4y ago
  I agree. I found that the process of training TikTok requires self-disciple and self-control and it was not easy in the beginning. I just marvel that the TikTok actually responded to this, unlike other solutions that basically don't care about your feedback. I wonder why that is? I feel that there is a huge manual override in the Google/Netflix/Amazon algorithms. In TikTok, I feel like I am having a relationship with Artificial Intelligence. It feels dangerous. If you lose control, it will eat you up alive and waste tremendous amount of your time. But if you can control it, it will deliver value.
- closedloop129 4y ago
  How do you break into the good content? Where do you get the first seeds? I can't ad weight to interesting videos if no interesting video is suggested.
  - 4y ago

bryans 4y ago

> Does this mean someday humans will stop creating, that we’ll let the machines take over? I don’t think so, I think TikTok shows us humans crave to create as much as consume. I think this boils down to a desire for connection, rather than creation, and is part of a decade-long consumer shift toward seeking individual relationships and bucking corporate brands. TikTok, Twitch and YouTube are the primary channels for this, and it's on display 24/7. There are millions of people throwing mountains of money at individuals, not just for sharing their thoughts or talents, but by creating a genuine connection and community around that content. And that's the reason humans won't stop creating content no matter how great AI gets -- because it was never really about the content to begin with. However, AI will assuredly become the dominant form of entertainment at some point, as the predictive capabilities alone would allow for flawless content suggestion for any given situation. And that's before the inevitability of generating content indistinguishable from anything Hollywood or Nashville can produce, including online personalities that mimic human behavior well enough to create the same "genuine" connections I mentioned in the first paragraph.

kovek 4y ago
Imagine if an AI could simulate(/emulate?) a person. What if it could simulate(/emulate?) a community. Some people are almost becoming friends with AI already
- bryans 4y ago
  With current technology, I think it would actually be somewhat simple to create an ASMR channel, for example, with generated content that only shows realistic hands manipulating objects, accompanied by a bot that variably responds to comments in a method which conveys gratitude, and invites everyone to a Discord where the bot also maintains sporadic and jovial communication. Instant community, and none would be the wiser.

qaid 4y ago

I am in the minority here but I also love TikTok for the same reason. I trained it to deliver content that aligns with my interests. In order to do this, I had to consciously use it, being aware of (how I think) the algorithm works. I’d even force myself to watch videos I didn’t like if the subject was highly interesting me and I wasn’t getting enough of that type of content. Using TikTok in this way frequently inspires me to be better The type of content I receive with this account is extremely different than another that I use when I’m on “autopilot.”

thinkingemote 4y ago
But you didnt train it. It trained itself to you. Its not yours its theirs. it might sound like just a way of speech or semantics but its a fundamental difference. That users think the application is their own creation is an intentional effect from the developers. It's like Apple in a way. A brand is not just a thing, it's part of your identity. Tiktok becomes a (e.g. small, frivolous) part of your very self.
- radu_floricica 4y ago
  If course it's a fundamental difference. It's just irrelevant for most purposes.

teej 4y ago

TikTok is the only social platform where you can reliably train the algorithm and it sticks. On Twitter, no amount of curation, mutes, or blocks will save you from screenshots of content you don’t want to see. On Reddit, you rely entirely up to the mods of a subreddit. Once a subreddit gets too popular, the submission rate overwhelms volunteer resources. Facebook is just garbage.

pbw 4y ago
I agree TikTok is doing something different from the other guys. The amazing thing is that it's been out for 5 years and no one has copied what it does. Although I'd guess the algorithm has gotten a lot better over time as well, so it might be a moving target for the others.
- throwaway290 4y ago
  I don't know if anyone in this thread uses YouTube, but its algorithm is insanely quick to adapt and videos you see on home page and in recommendations entirely depend on what you have watched before. Watch a video, see your home page change; watch a ton and it will reflect your preferences. (It also makes an attempt to list the topics it thinks you prefer and offers additional separate home page for each, as well as one for videos not matching any topic but still possibly of interest to you.) Everything about TikTok's algorithmic malleability can be said about YouTube, so I am confused as to why this is news to anyone. One difference is that YT also has longer videos. Unlike fixed-length blurbs of TT, this increases the challenge for recommendation algorithms, but I welcome this heterogeneity.
  - jazzyjackson 4y ago
    YouTube's recommendation must be device dependent or something, because I only use it through AppleTV or as a Playstation App and the entire page is like 15 or 20 videos repeated over and over, like sometimes it will suggest the same video in two different places on the screen.
    - 4y ago

eric4smith 4y ago

TikTok is a cancer on the universe. (In terms of converting its users into the version of the people on Wall-E). -- Go ahead Google "Wall-E people". I thought Instagram was bad. Trained or not, there is nothing good about scrolling through stuff for every moment when you're bored. Boredom is nature's way of making the universe go forward. And it's best when its channeled into creative, industrious or thoughtful pursuits. Instead we have channeled Boredom into watching barely clad teens dance, or women complain about dating misadventures. And the paradoxical thing about it. Is that the creators vs viewers ratio is still 99% viewers to 1% creator. Creators are the ones that have channeled their boredom (however misplaced) into something that others watch. But then all of this is human nature anyway. And perhaps I'm railing about nothing. Flame away!

KVFinn 4y ago
>I thought Instagram was bad. >Instead we have channeled Boredom into watching barely clad teens dance, or women complain about dating misadventures. If this is what you see on your TikTok, it's because those are the videos you lingered on the longest. Pro-Tip: Never 'hate watch' on TikTok.
- Jensson 4y ago
  But that is a huge problem with the service. On YouTube I can search for whatever topic or video I want and find high quality videos on interesting topics instantly, so no need to train any algorithm to get good content. There is no hook in TikTok unless you actually like the default feed, since there is no good way to find anything else without first wading through all those default videos. Edit: Not sure why I was downvoted, but I really can't get into TikTok. I went there, the default feed was 100% uninteresting, I wont wade through that for a week looking for videos that might be there. I searched for some topics, for example "Warhammer", it is a very popular topic and it would be interesting to find more of that, but the search didn't turn up a single video about it. So I don't really see what I am supposed to do then, I am sure they have at least some warhammer videos but if it takes hours or days or weeks of work to find them then I don't see why I should bother with TikTok at all.
4y ago

elvis10ten 4y ago

TikTok is just way too “thirsty” — they try too hard to get me hooked which is a massive turnoff. I have the app. I only open it to upload videos. Then I ignore it and its notifications. Instagram works well for me. I have “trained” it to recommend fitness, football, & comedy. I go to search, watch what’s on the first page without scrolling, and then I’m out.

TranquilMarmot 4y ago
Sometimes I feel like it knows which videos I'll like and don't like and it will purposefully show me 10 videos that are "meh" that I skip through quickly and then 1 or 2 videos that are spot-on (funny, intellectual, etc.) which makes it feel a LOT like a Skinner Box. Keep pulling the lever until you get something good, and all the bad stuff in between makes the good stuff seem that much better.
- pbw 4y ago
  People think you get dopamine hits when you find cool stimulating things. You actually get a steady drip while seeking, it’s what keeps you transfixed looking for the next thing. And as this shows a variable reward gives you a stronger drip: https://liveinnovation.org/dopamine-more-than-pleasure-the-secret-is-the-anticipation-of-a-reward/ https://liveinnovation.org/dopamine-more-than-pleasure-the-s... I figure a big challenge for TT is they must send you less good stuff to rate it. They probably hold off doing that until you appear hooked. You wouldn’t want a new user to get a bizarre/lame video with 5 views.

mrfusion 4y ago

How do the like and follow actions affect the algorithm? From a training perspective when is it good to do?

pbw 4y ago
I don't know how it all works. However one thing I will sometimes do is like a video but not watch it to the end. What I'm thinking in that case is this is good content, but not something I really want to watch. Like a musician that I want to encourage, but just don't feel like watching to the end. I suspect TikTok "understands" that situation. I'm tend to not follow. I'm not sure how that factors in, except obviously it populates your Following page.

asadlionpk 4y ago

I wish the model could be downloadable, so I can just download this user's model/config, load it up in my TikTok, and experience their TikTok experience without having to retrain my own TikTok. It would be fun to follow these 'models' instead of the actual Algorithm, so I can easily view the world through this individual (or businesses ;) ) "lens".

noman-land 4y ago
This is a neat idea. It's almost like following someone's brain.
- nicksiscoe 4y ago
  Random thought dump here.. it’s kind of crazy how we all discuss the implications of the internet and social media on society and culture whilst all seeing dramatically different “versions” of the internet The TikTok/Twitter/Instagram that I know is totally different than the version you’re familiar with. Dropping into your feeds would give me a totally different impression of what those platforms are Basically, the way everyone mentally models and perceives these platforms is unique. YouTube in my brain is literally a different application than the YouTube in your brain We’re probably really underestimating the impact of these differences on the way we view the world around us
  - numpad0 4y ago
    Add Google Search to that list. Google Search for my IP is full of SEO spams but not necessarily for everyone it seems. True insanity it is.
  - delusional 4y ago
    > We’re probably really underestimating the impact of these differences on the way we view the world around us I don't think we're really underestimating it that badly. If you participate in the discourse around these platforms you'll find a discussion that very much understands and centers the mechanism over the outcome. You'll find researchers replicating what their subjects see on TikTok, or lamenting the tendency of the YouTube algorithm to lead people down the alt-right pipeline. When you see people complaining about specific content. It's either a surface level analysis, or rooted in wanting to puncture the pipeline. I think It's pretty clear that interested experts are very much aware of the uniquely multifaceted nature of these mega-brands. Even if the general public is yet to catch up completely.

neither_color 4y ago

Quickly my For You page was transformed. I saw long thoughtful videos on motivation, psychology, science, and philosophy. I listened to excerpts of lectures on Stoicism or Zen Buddhism, and speeches by enigmatic Indian meditation gurus. It figured out I was a software engineer and showed me many jokes or insights about work. At one point I was hunting for a job and TikTok started showing me interview tips. I witnessed drawings and paintings and animations by countless visual artists. I found myself zooming through trippy 3D fractals while listening to Alan Watts. I appreciate the screenshots because they show a side of TikTok I wasn't aware of. I've still up to this point managed to avoid ever installing or browsing TikTok. The few tiktoks I've seen were clips forwarded to me. I'm sure, like Twitter, it's full of awful content by default that you can learn to filter and fine tune until it feeds you good content, but that's exactly why I'm avoiding it. I never even had a twitter account until 2020(that I started following out of covid lockdown boredom) and 3 months later I was becoming really heated politically and felt like America was collapsing. Reading about a new social network is like reading about a new flavor of crack. I'm sure it feels nice but No Thanks!

guerrilla 4y ago

I tried training it in a very specific way too. I only liked and finished watching videos that made me smile or laugh. I was perfectly disciplined with this but in the end, it only kind of worked. I gave it about a week or so. Maybe it takes longer? Or maybe it can't figure out what I like and can only do themes/topics?

pbw 4y ago
OP here. Once trained I still get videos I don’t want. So the mix is much better, but you are never totally done training. Videos that make you smile or laugh might be a hard criteria for it to learn. Compared to specific interests like “wood working” or “astronomy”.

winternett 4y ago

We try to act like the algorithms are these flawless implementations of intelligence, but they're often not. Most social apps right now are run like bad casinos, where people get exploited often for money and time... They prey on users in stealth from many angles, and now they even hand select who wins and who doesn't. Ask yourself why these companies need so many employees (psychology experts, PR teams, Lobbyists, Lawyers, Moderators, Product Owners, Developers, Financial Experts, etc) if the algorithm is the key factor at play... The algos are made with non transparent bias that we simply can't see, and that bias and disposition can be changed at any time to cover it's tracks... Bias which is often toxic and geared towards company profit over doing what's right. We only understand how damaging that bias is when it becomes a trend of kids destroying school bathrooms or when we find out people who projected an image of fame and wealth were actually completely faking the persona and unfortunately harming themselves as a result. I often rant about social media because it's really a system of rewards for bad behavior where only the platform ends up profiting most... It can also destroy respect and disregard cultures and encourage danger and self harm for others. The reason why most are complacent is because everyone is having a different experience on it... If you're suicidal, the algorithm floods you with dark content that makes you into a profitable news worthy story. If you're an "influencer", the algorithm floods you with tips to keep you working hard within the platform and encourages you to buy "essential" gear to boost your career (that pays VERY LITTLE in comparison to the time and money you spend on the influencer pursuit). In my opinion as a developer, most of the major app (TikTok, Instagram, FB, etc...) social algos are not designed any more with the intent of making sure you're entertained online, and they're bent on maximizing engagement and ad revenue for these companies at any cost... Understanding that first is the way to stay sane when using any of these apps/sites. Other than that I do enjoy doom scrolling through memes when I'm bored, it's kind of like a video game you don't have to really invest much into.

jollybean 4y ago

Say what you will but TT deserves acclaim for making something that's engaging not based on political toxicity. Twitter is constantly trying to trigger me with some 'bait' statement by someone on the side of an issue. Our entire media/political class seems to want to make statements that 'pop' which is basically 'taking a strong stand' on something. 'Base TikTok' - untrained and just the popular stuff is really trashy 'Island Boys' and 'Johnny Depp' - but 'trained' TT is reasonable. There's a lot of very interest creators out there.

pbw 4y ago
I’m amazed how seldom I see political posts on TT. I’m not really sure why that is. My Twitter is highly political even though I try to follow very few political people. Maybe the hurdle of making a video is just that much higher than typing in a few angry words?
- jollybean 4y ago
  Algorithm doesn't favour it, and my bet is TT actively dissuades. It's China, they don't like political agitation.

moron4hire 4y ago

I used TikTok and posted videos on it for about three months last summer. I was mostly posting nature education stuff and replying to people's questions about math. I wasn't going gangbusters, but growth was positive and obvious. Certainly a lot faster than any other platform I've been on. Plus, the community is super interactive. Even as an upstart, I was getting replies from popular accounts to my replies to their posts. You can say just about anything about the content on TikTok. There's vapid stuff. There's funny stuff. There's informative stuff. There's insightful stuff. It's all there and you can easily shape your feed to whatever you want. But there's also a lot of really dark stuff. And by that I mean how TikTok themselves interact with people. I once got suspended for updating my profile to say I liked Star Trek. I'd randomly get content warnings and videos removed for "sexual" content for videos that didn't even contain any people. And I was only experiencing the tip of the iceberg. I saw several popular accounts get banned, often for "sexual content" or "harassment", of people who did nothing of the sort. And of course, appeals for review were always useless. There are a lot of hidden anti-features in TikTok, too. User accounts exist in different classes, based on follower count (undocumented, naturally). Certain features don't get unlocked until you hit a certain number of followers. I got high enough that I could post 3 minute videos, but I never got high enough that I was allowed to put a link to my website in my bio (that got me another suspension). New accounts get spread further, more often, to give you a dopamine boost of attention that you end up chasing with no insight into why your viewership is dwindling even though you're learning and posting better videos. Various hidden rate limits are in place that can trigger account suspensions if you do something like edit your bio too many times in a row (like, maybe cuz you're fixing a typo). There are shadow suspensions, too, where going over a certain quota of posts means your subsequent posts won't show up in anyone's feeds, which can happen easily if you're having fun with making reply chains. And always. Always the complete lack of human review. It became really clear that the "report user" button is being abused to brigade people off of the app. As I said, I saw several popular accounts get banned for trumped up charges, with some extremely worrying patterns emerging regarding the race, sex, and sexual orientation of said accounts (and never any of their content, that I could ever tell). TikTok is an amazing app and community. But TikTok is also an extremely terrible company. For that reason, I gave up on it, and I strongly discouraging getting started with it.

4y ago

account-5 4y ago

My take from just the comments in the thread, not the article, is that most people like social media or think there is some benefit in it for them. I, like some others here, am in the minority. HN is my only social network and I consider this more a forum. I am not on any social network as my opinion about them is they are tools to spy on you and waste your time. I am not disputing that there isn't some good stuff on these networks just that I'm not interested in being a product or wasting my time looking at trivial pish; I would also include training a social media AI system in this too. All power to you if you find benefit in these networks but I'm yet to come across anything worth the effort on them.

News-Dog 4y ago

>TikTok hashtag analysis toolset The tool helps to download posts and videos from TikTok for a given set of hashtags over a period of time. Users can create a growing database of posts for specific hashtags which can then be used for further hashtag analysis. It uses the tiktok-scraper Node package to download the posts and videos. tiktok-scraper : https://github.com/drawrowfly/tiktok-scraper https://github.com/drawrowfly/tiktok-scraper

daptaq 4y ago

My constant fear with TikTok is not whether or not you can train it, but whether you will realize when it has managed to train you.

FrozenVoid 4y ago

Youtube can be "Trained" (with a blank profile/container) into TikTok type content by repeatedly watching first recommended video and skipping videos in 2-3 secs.

pbw 4y ago
I visit my YouTube “home” screen on my TV and I like most of what’s on there. It finds good stuff. Unlike TikTok’s one video at a time with YT I’m scanning through dozens of thumbnails for what to watch.

idk1 4y ago

I have somehow managed to train my TikTok into showing me comedy, some of the best sketchs/comedy I've seen in the past year or two have been on TikTok. I feels to me a bit like watching stand-up in basements in the 90s. Loads and loads of raw comedic talent and a platform to them to do whatever they want quickly.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

ausbah 4y ago

the first move is getting "good" content out of your social media feeds, the second is to limit how much you watch them all together

thenerdhead 4y ago

There's many people saying that other platforms cannot be trained or at least they don't notice it. Well, that's the point. For you to not notice. You can see this firsthand by not following/subscribing/etc to anyone on these platforms and seeing the algorithm train and change as you slowly consume content. At a certain point, you will even have your default feed settings changed as if you were following a modest amount of people. Many platforms hide these feed settings by default so that you consume without realizing it. Some notable examples of this are Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and YouTube. You won't even notice you're being manipulated until you check your settings again. Ever wonder why certain things like stories, shorts, or reels all of a sudden are being shown from people you don't care about? Well, now ya know. The one thing I believe is "uplifting" about TikTok is that the power is being shifted to the individual creator rather than the big six media conglomerates. Instead of a couple hundred channels, there's thousands. But the problem with that is there is an infinite amount of content to be entertained with. America is already a big shopping mall with everyone holding out their credit cards. This makes more of these channels advertise even more shit we don't need in our lives with the impression that it's personal or everyday when the creator simply needs to survive and put food on the table too.

snowwrestler 4y ago

AI recommendation systems like TikTok can be great tools, if you have control over your own thinking. Control over one’s thoughts—metacognition, or thinking about your thinking—is an essential tool for advancing your life. It’s a huge focus of the formal education system, why teachers insist on “showing your work” and not just writing the answer down by itself. Understanding science is not just knowing that the mitochondria is the powerhouse of the cell, but understanding the system of thinking that led scientists to that conclusion. It’s also a huge focus of therapy, getting patients to recognize their own patterns of thinking so that they can decide whether or not to change them. Even corporate “EQ” training starts with getting people to recognize when they are feeling strong emotions and then think about why. Does TikTok by itself teach these skills? To me the answer seems obviously “no.” One can bring an analytical mind to TikTok, but does TikTok encourage analytical thinking? I don’t see how. It seems to me it is built to deliver an experience that is the exact opposite of analytical thinking. And this is why we worry about the kids on TikTok. Metacognition is one of the later patterns of thought to develop, and therefore something most kids struggle with in general.

moron4hire 4y ago
Remember when Google gave good results, you could find good stuff on Amazon, and Pandora played just the right music? I'd be interested to find out if TikTok's recommendation engine really is AI or if every other recommendation is corrupted by advertising money. I get the feeling that TikTok is still in growth stage, still acquiring users, and hasn't really turned the monetization funnel on yet. I suspect that the recommendations will get worse over time.

toss1 4y ago

I'd want various DIFFERENT trained curation sets - for different work and hobby activities, interests, and entertainment. I suppose that might be done by making several accounts, but it seems it should be a feature... like the Netflix [Who's Watching] or maybe [Select Mood]...?

jdnordy 4y ago

ahh, this is such a refreshing article. Social media is not the evil of all evils. What matters is how you use it. "The Algorithm" can be really good if you use it well. I benefit a lot from my engagement with these platforms from staying up-to-date on the news to blowing of steam after work to thinking about new and interesting thing. Instead of shouting, "Boo!" Why not talk about how to engage well?

pontifier 4y ago

In the story "Kiosk" by Bruce Sterling, a girl trains an AI powered jewelry tree by carefully selecting pieces that will move the product toward what she wants.