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I couldn't read the article, but I think part of the significance is that bitcoin is believed by some to be a new gold standard that investors would fly to as a

I couldn't read the article, but I think part of the significance is that bitcoin is believed by some to be a new gold standard that investors would fly to as a store of value and medium of exchange when other markets are failing. But the reality is that it performs no differently than a volatile tech investment, and in doing do negates a big part of it's putative value proposition. I agree with everything in your comment, I just think it's worse than an energy intensive, non contributing tech stock, it also doesn't do any of the things that people talk up as reasons to buy it.

JKCalhoun 4y ago
At least when Apple was circling the drain back in the late 1990's it had assets that more or less meant there was a floor for its stock price. I see no floor for crypto.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- charcircuit 4y ago
  >it had assets That doesn't mean there is a floor. If there is no demand for any of those assets they would be worth nothing. USD doesn't have a floor either. One day everyone could just decide it's worthless scraps of cloth.
  - medler 4y ago
    USD is fundamentally different from cryptocurrency. For one thing, there will always be demand for USD because Americans have to pay taxes in dollars. If you’re an American and you make $X in a year, you have to buy ~1/3 of that in USD to pay your taxes, no matter what.
    - charcircuit 4y ago
      America could get rid of taxes or stop existing altogether. There always exists a risk of demand drying up.
      - spupe 4y ago
        In that scenario, I don't think anybody is using Bitcoins either.
        charcircuit 4y ago
        Fair point.
    - datadata 4y ago
      The fact that there is forced demand does not matter because the supply is potentially infinite. Look towards any episode of hyperinflation to see this on full display. You need both limited supply and non-zero demand to guarantee scarcity and thus value.
      - orwin 4y ago
        That's no how money works, money is mostly created by demand (93 to 97% in developped countries with efficient banking system). And that money is easy to destroy too, you could destroy 93% of existing dollars by reimbursing the debt owned by household, companies and US government.
        datadata 4y ago
        How can you just ignore dozens of hyperinflation episodes? Clearly there are situations where supply becomes infinite.
        orwin 4y ago
        Sorry, i should have said: that's not how money works in modern economies. I'm not ignoring hyperinflation, but clearly it has nothing to do with Zimbabwe or Venezuela. The only comparison could be the Weimar republic, as this disaster was caused too by production deficits (France invading the Ruhr valley+ loosing colonial income), but obviously similarities stop there.
    - chrischen 4y ago
      Bitcoin by that logic will also always have demand because you will have to pay your ransoms in it.
      - sshine 4y ago
        It sounds like a joke, but yes, it is the things you can buy that determine a currency’s utility: Drugs, remittance, ransom, exiting a crashing fiat, and a 21st century gambling experience.
        daniel-cussen 4y ago
        So exiting a crashing fiat is like a fire extinguisher or a pistol, worthless until such a moment it is the only thing that isn't worthless. Drugs, too, I defend the actions of the victims of the opioid epidemic in seeking drugs, they were actively tortured for most of their waking hours by a multi-level-marketing pharmaceutical scam. Those drugs weren't recreational, they were an anaesthetic in response to malpractice. Like the Sacklers are literally hard drug dealers, they literally have a monopoly on legal heroin and cocaine. Or should I say OxyContin and Adhansia. They did that through legal bribes as a cover for additional fully illegal bribes, inviting doctors to hedonistic islands to get compromat, treating the FDA like their personal lapdog, disgusting acts of philanthropy with their ill-gotten gains, medical media, and the ordinary media. So like if they are cornering the market and intentionally cheating the patients out of antidote while increasing the doses of poison, you know what, don't tell me black is white. The legal market is shit and the illegal market is superior. And in fact the only limit to their cheating their patients out of medicine is presented by the black market, that's the resistance and why the problem wasn't even worse.
        sshine 4y ago
        This response seems more related to the morality of drug addiction (through big pharma or dark web). I don't think you can say that the illegal market is superior. There's a lot of downside: Buying heroin and getting fentanyl is an example. My only claim is that cryptocurrencies are useful for things that are at odds with national governments (circumventing their legislation, or dealing with the fact that they're dysfunctional), since in those situations, fiat doesn't work well.
  - cardosof 4y ago
    Stocks have real assets and intellectual property, USD has the USA army and economy.
    - charcircuit 4y ago
      Real assets aren't inherently more valuable than digital ones. I've spent much more on digital assets in my life than on physical assets. Cosmetics in video games are much more valuable to me than like clothes in real life. To me buying physical stuff is mostly a waste of money. The USA army could be dissolved and the economy could switch to use something else. Of course these events have a low probability of happening but if someone wants to say something else doesn't have a floor because demand could dry up you can't say something else does have a floor even though demand could dry up just the same.
      - Wata26363 4y ago
        I cannot understand this point of view. In what world will you keep enjoying your digital cosmetics after the USA army is dissolved?
        charcircuit 4y ago
        They were independent statements. But yes, if for some reason the USA dissolved their army I would still enjoy playing video games.
        Wata26363 4y ago
        Maybe that was a bit facetious, my point was that there are no digital assets without a physical guarantee
        charcircuit 4y ago
        I don't quite understand what you are getting at. Could you explain a little more of what you mean? If I have a CSGO knife why would I care about anything physical?
- naniwaduni 4y ago
  It does have the natural floor that it's unlikely for your personal holdings to somehow turn into debt, at least. That's ... better than some assets you could hold.
- smw 4y ago
  At one point Sun had more in cash than its market cap?
MBCook 4y ago
> also doesn't do any of the things that people talk up as reasons to buy it Which is ironic because every time it fails to do that people come up with a new raison d’être. Cash replacement, ownership ledger, replacement for the existence of fiat, probably a ton more. Pseudo-gold/store of value is just one of the more recent ones.
- boppo1 4y ago
  It hasn't failed for anyone following a moderately informed buy-and-hold strategy. I bought some bitcoin in August '17 and thought 'we'll see in ten years'. It has remained greener than any of my other investments.
  - hammyhavoc 4y ago
    That's the thing though. The utility is what informs the perceived long-term value. It isn't meant to be an investment, it is meant to be a currency. Beanie Babies weren't a currency or an investment, they were a toy.
MuffinFlavored 4y ago
does gold swing 10% a day in price?

JKCalhoun 4y ago

At least when Apple was circling the drain back in the late 1990's it had assets that more or less meant there was a floor for its stock price. I see no floor for crypto.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
charcircuit 4y ago
>it had assets That doesn't mean there is a floor. If there is no demand for any of those assets they would be worth nothing. USD doesn't have a floor either. One day everyone could just decide it's worthless scraps of cloth.
- medler 4y ago
  USD is fundamentally different from cryptocurrency. For one thing, there will always be demand for USD because Americans have to pay taxes in dollars. If you’re an American and you make $X in a year, you have to buy ~1/3 of that in USD to pay your taxes, no matter what.
  - charcircuit 4y ago
    America could get rid of taxes or stop existing altogether. There always exists a risk of demand drying up.
    - spupe 4y ago
      In that scenario, I don't think anybody is using Bitcoins either.
      - charcircuit 4y ago
        Fair point.
  - datadata 4y ago
    The fact that there is forced demand does not matter because the supply is potentially infinite. Look towards any episode of hyperinflation to see this on full display. You need both limited supply and non-zero demand to guarantee scarcity and thus value.
    - orwin 4y ago
      That's no how money works, money is mostly created by demand (93 to 97% in developped countries with efficient banking system). And that money is easy to destroy too, you could destroy 93% of existing dollars by reimbursing the debt owned by household, companies and US government.
      - datadata 4y ago
        How can you just ignore dozens of hyperinflation episodes? Clearly there are situations where supply becomes infinite.
        orwin 4y ago
        Sorry, i should have said: that's not how money works in modern economies. I'm not ignoring hyperinflation, but clearly it has nothing to do with Zimbabwe or Venezuela. The only comparison could be the Weimar republic, as this disaster was caused too by production deficits (France invading the Ruhr valley+ loosing colonial income), but obviously similarities stop there.
  - chrischen 4y ago
    Bitcoin by that logic will also always have demand because you will have to pay your ransoms in it.
    - sshine 4y ago
      It sounds like a joke, but yes, it is the things you can buy that determine a currency’s utility: Drugs, remittance, ransom, exiting a crashing fiat, and a 21st century gambling experience.
      - daniel-cussen 4y ago
        So exiting a crashing fiat is like a fire extinguisher or a pistol, worthless until such a moment it is the only thing that isn't worthless. Drugs, too, I defend the actions of the victims of the opioid epidemic in seeking drugs, they were actively tortured for most of their waking hours by a multi-level-marketing pharmaceutical scam. Those drugs weren't recreational, they were an anaesthetic in response to malpractice. Like the Sacklers are literally hard drug dealers, they literally have a monopoly on legal heroin and cocaine. Or should I say OxyContin and Adhansia. They did that through legal bribes as a cover for additional fully illegal bribes, inviting doctors to hedonistic islands to get compromat, treating the FDA like their personal lapdog, disgusting acts of philanthropy with their ill-gotten gains, medical media, and the ordinary media. So like if they are cornering the market and intentionally cheating the patients out of antidote while increasing the doses of poison, you know what, don't tell me black is white. The legal market is shit and the illegal market is superior. And in fact the only limit to their cheating their patients out of medicine is presented by the black market, that's the resistance and why the problem wasn't even worse.
        sshine 4y ago
        This response seems more related to the morality of drug addiction (through big pharma or dark web). I don't think you can say that the illegal market is superior. There's a lot of downside: Buying heroin and getting fentanyl is an example. My only claim is that cryptocurrencies are useful for things that are at odds with national governments (circumventing their legislation, or dealing with the fact that they're dysfunctional), since in those situations, fiat doesn't work well.
- cardosof 4y ago
  Stocks have real assets and intellectual property, USD has the USA army and economy.
  - charcircuit 4y ago
    Real assets aren't inherently more valuable than digital ones. I've spent much more on digital assets in my life than on physical assets. Cosmetics in video games are much more valuable to me than like clothes in real life. To me buying physical stuff is mostly a waste of money. The USA army could be dissolved and the economy could switch to use something else. Of course these events have a low probability of happening but if someone wants to say something else doesn't have a floor because demand could dry up you can't say something else does have a floor even though demand could dry up just the same.
    - Wata26363 4y ago
      I cannot understand this point of view. In what world will you keep enjoying your digital cosmetics after the USA army is dissolved?
      - charcircuit 4y ago
        They were independent statements. But yes, if for some reason the USA dissolved their army I would still enjoy playing video games.
        Wata26363 4y ago
        Maybe that was a bit facetious, my point was that there are no digital assets without a physical guarantee
        charcircuit 4y ago
        I don't quite understand what you are getting at. Could you explain a little more of what you mean? If I have a CSGO knife why would I care about anything physical?
naniwaduni 4y ago
It does have the natural floor that it's unlikely for your personal holdings to somehow turn into debt, at least. That's ... better than some assets you could hold.
smw 4y ago
At one point Sun had more in cash than its market cap?

MBCook 4y ago

> also doesn't do any of the things that people talk up as reasons to buy it Which is ironic because every time it fails to do that people come up with a new raison d’être. Cash replacement, ownership ledger, replacement for the existence of fiat, probably a ton more. Pseudo-gold/store of value is just one of the more recent ones.

boppo1 4y ago
It hasn't failed for anyone following a moderately informed buy-and-hold strategy. I bought some bitcoin in August '17 and thought 'we'll see in ten years'. It has remained greener than any of my other investments.
- hammyhavoc 4y ago
  That's the thing though. The utility is what informs the perceived long-term value. It isn't meant to be an investment, it is meant to be a currency. Beanie Babies weren't a currency or an investment, they were a toy.

MuffinFlavored 4y ago

does gold swing 10% a day in price?