4 ms·

Neoliberalism calls for elimination of social services? I know it as the exact opposite! Who defines these terms? Who defines what is canonical?

baisq 4y ago
Liberalism and neoliberalism have always been about the rights of the individual above everything else. But the concept of "liberal" has been perverted in America.
- usrn 4y ago
  The idea of a "political compass" helps. The left has two groups: authoritarians who want to replace culture with something secular and have strong social services and government regulation, and the liberals who want to reject culture and let people do what they want. The right also has two groups: the conservatives who want the government to enforce our culture and the libertarians who want to be left alone. For the past ~100 years we've found consensus between the liberals and libertarians but everyone is radicalizing away from that. So we still think of liberals as being the leftward movement and libertarians as being the rightward one.
  - nicoburns 4y ago
    Doesn't the political compass usually use the label "authoritarian" and "libertarian" for both the left and right? There's nothing about being libertarian that is inherently right-wing (in particular if you generalise the logic of "big government bad" to "any large powerful organisation including governments, corporations, and individuals bad" then you end up with a very much left-wing position).
    - robertlagrant 4y ago
      I've never heard government bad being described as left wing. Which left wing organisation would say that?
      - nicoburns 4y ago
        Any anarchist one for starters. But looking towards more mainstream positions, anyone who is advocating for a Universal Basic Income. While UBI involves high levels of taxation, it does not lead to a big government because the government isn't actually spending that money.
        robertlagrant 4y ago
        UBI may not create big government (although it probably does) the sort of politics that likes big government also likes UBI.
        nicoburns 4y ago
        > although it probably does What makes you think that? > the sort of politics that likes big government also likes UBI. I don't think you can really generalise like that. Certainly the reverse doesn't seem to be true, in that UBI seems to have appeal to many of those who are opposed to big government. It certainly seems to avoid a lot of the bureaucracy that comes with more traditional welfare systems.
        emteycz 4y ago
        The incredible machinery required to collect the current amount of taxes suggests so. Each percentage point requires increasingly more complex tax administration, and with each point more people will try hard to evade it. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laffer_curve https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laffer_curve
    - usrn 4y ago
      Yes, the liberals are the libertarian left.
      - nicoburns 4y ago
        Perhaps it's a US/UK terminology difference, but most of the left-libertarians I know would not take kindly to being described as liberals.
vanderZwan 4y ago
Social/political scientists who actually have intentions of ensuring they communicate in clear terms with each other. I'd go with their definitions, they're a lot more reliable than politicians and their double-speak when it comes to these topics.
mordae 4y ago
You are probably the only one. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism
hkt 4y ago
Conventionally, neoliberalism is described as a doctrine that commodities and commercialises everything it can. It is the growth of markets into areas traditionally without them, the belief that choice is more important than standards, and so on. That's the basics, anyway. What you might be thinking of is the tendency for American liberals to advocate for things like the welfare state, universal healthcare etc. That isn't neoliberalism, it is an ideology rather than a process.
- robertlagrant 4y ago
  > the belief that choice is more important than standards More like that on average, competition creates the highest standards.
  - orwin 4y ago
    *With transparent, available and easy to decrypt information. Thing like easy to read FoP labels for food, transparent manufacturing ant testing process for parts and pieces like joints. The last part would kill GE and a number of global companies btw.
  - hkt 4y ago
    Well yes, that too. But the facts from around the world are that the market power of even benign retailers is less effective at creating high standards than regulation.
jrsj 4y ago
“Neoliberalism” generally refers to the policy shifts under Reagan, Thatcher, etc. the “liberal” part of the word coming from the original sense of it and not the modern American version just meaning “left”.
- pessimizer 4y ago
  > the modern American version just meaning “left”. To add to this. "Classical liberal" in the US means laissez faire as a form of government, and is an Americanism for liberal. "Liberal" in the US means closely associated with the Democratic Party, which is also "classically" liberal, but believes that preventing irrational discrimination against the societally disadvantaged trumps freedom of contract. "Neoliberal" also started as an Americanism for liberal but was retconned into referring to the philosophy that liberalism trumps democracy, so societies need to be rigged to support liberalism by any means necessary. "Liberal" really just means "hands-off." If you're the Republican kind of liberal, you think that the only important thing is that the federal government keeps their hands off of things. If you're the Democratic kind of liberal, you also think that smaller institutions such as churches, Chambers of Commerce, Klan groups and state governments should also keep their hands off things, and that the federal government should be hands-on enforcing that. If you're a neoliberal, you think that the federal government, churches, Chambers of Commerce, Klan groups and state governments should be hands-on enforcing a hands-off policy when it comes to regulating finance or labor. Both parties will veer from these principles when appealing to their illiberal bases (the religious right and the labor left), but feebly. turning those aberrations into what we call "wedge issues."
throwaway787544 4y ago
The Wikipedia page addresses the meaning shift https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism
barry-cotter 4y ago
> Neoliberalism holds that a society’s political and economic institutions should be robustly liberal and capitalist, but supplemented by a constitutionally limited democracy and a modest welfare state. Neoliberals endorse liberal rights and the free-market economy to protect freedom and promote economic prosperity. Neoliberals are broadly democratic, but stress the limitations of democracy as much as its necessity. And while neoliberals typically think government should provide social insurance and public goods, they are skeptical of the regulatory state, extensive government spending, and government-led countercyclical policy. https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/neoliberalism/index.html https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/neoliberalism/index.html
lordnacho 4y ago
Especially in North America, classical liberalism, liberalism, and neoliberalism are different things. Reading something like the Economist, which is British, can cause some confusion. The short story is that freedom can mean you should be free from the strictures of the state, or it can mean the state gives you more freedom by supplying certain things to you. The long story is really long.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]

baisq 4y ago

Liberalism and neoliberalism have always been about the rights of the individual above everything else. But the concept of "liberal" has been perverted in America.

usrn 4y ago
The idea of a "political compass" helps. The left has two groups: authoritarians who want to replace culture with something secular and have strong social services and government regulation, and the liberals who want to reject culture and let people do what they want. The right also has two groups: the conservatives who want the government to enforce our culture and the libertarians who want to be left alone. For the past ~100 years we've found consensus between the liberals and libertarians but everyone is radicalizing away from that. So we still think of liberals as being the leftward movement and libertarians as being the rightward one.
- nicoburns 4y ago
  Doesn't the political compass usually use the label "authoritarian" and "libertarian" for both the left and right? There's nothing about being libertarian that is inherently right-wing (in particular if you generalise the logic of "big government bad" to "any large powerful organisation including governments, corporations, and individuals bad" then you end up with a very much left-wing position).
  - robertlagrant 4y ago
    I've never heard government bad being described as left wing. Which left wing organisation would say that?
    - nicoburns 4y ago
      Any anarchist one for starters. But looking towards more mainstream positions, anyone who is advocating for a Universal Basic Income. While UBI involves high levels of taxation, it does not lead to a big government because the government isn't actually spending that money.
      - robertlagrant 4y ago
        UBI may not create big government (although it probably does) the sort of politics that likes big government also likes UBI.
        nicoburns 4y ago
        > although it probably does What makes you think that? > the sort of politics that likes big government also likes UBI. I don't think you can really generalise like that. Certainly the reverse doesn't seem to be true, in that UBI seems to have appeal to many of those who are opposed to big government. It certainly seems to avoid a lot of the bureaucracy that comes with more traditional welfare systems.
        emteycz 4y ago
        The incredible machinery required to collect the current amount of taxes suggests so. Each percentage point requires increasingly more complex tax administration, and with each point more people will try hard to evade it. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laffer_curve https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laffer_curve
  - usrn 4y ago
    Yes, the liberals are the libertarian left.
    - nicoburns 4y ago
      Perhaps it's a US/UK terminology difference, but most of the left-libertarians I know would not take kindly to being described as liberals.

vanderZwan 4y ago

Social/political scientists who actually have intentions of ensuring they communicate in clear terms with each other. I'd go with their definitions, they're a lot more reliable than politicians and their double-speak when it comes to these topics.

mordae 4y ago

You are probably the only one. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism

hkt 4y ago

Conventionally, neoliberalism is described as a doctrine that commodities and commercialises everything it can. It is the growth of markets into areas traditionally without them, the belief that choice is more important than standards, and so on. That's the basics, anyway. What you might be thinking of is the tendency for American liberals to advocate for things like the welfare state, universal healthcare etc. That isn't neoliberalism, it is an ideology rather than a process.

robertlagrant 4y ago
> the belief that choice is more important than standards More like that on average, competition creates the highest standards.
- orwin 4y ago
  *With transparent, available and easy to decrypt information. Thing like easy to read FoP labels for food, transparent manufacturing ant testing process for parts and pieces like joints. The last part would kill GE and a number of global companies btw.
- hkt 4y ago
  Well yes, that too. But the facts from around the world are that the market power of even benign retailers is less effective at creating high standards than regulation.

jrsj 4y ago

“Neoliberalism” generally refers to the policy shifts under Reagan, Thatcher, etc. the “liberal” part of the word coming from the original sense of it and not the modern American version just meaning “left”.

pessimizer 4y ago
> the modern American version just meaning “left”. To add to this. "Classical liberal" in the US means laissez faire as a form of government, and is an Americanism for liberal. "Liberal" in the US means closely associated with the Democratic Party, which is also "classically" liberal, but believes that preventing irrational discrimination against the societally disadvantaged trumps freedom of contract. "Neoliberal" also started as an Americanism for liberal but was retconned into referring to the philosophy that liberalism trumps democracy, so societies need to be rigged to support liberalism by any means necessary. "Liberal" really just means "hands-off." If you're the Republican kind of liberal, you think that the only important thing is that the federal government keeps their hands off of things. If you're the Democratic kind of liberal, you also think that smaller institutions such as churches, Chambers of Commerce, Klan groups and state governments should also keep their hands off things, and that the federal government should be hands-on enforcing that. If you're a neoliberal, you think that the federal government, churches, Chambers of Commerce, Klan groups and state governments should be hands-on enforcing a hands-off policy when it comes to regulating finance or labor. Both parties will veer from these principles when appealing to their illiberal bases (the religious right and the labor left), but feebly. turning those aberrations into what we call "wedge issues."

throwaway787544 4y ago

The Wikipedia page addresses the meaning shift https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism

barry-cotter 4y ago

> Neoliberalism holds that a society’s political and economic institutions should be robustly liberal and capitalist, but supplemented by a constitutionally limited democracy and a modest welfare state. Neoliberals endorse liberal rights and the free-market economy to protect freedom and promote economic prosperity. Neoliberals are broadly democratic, but stress the limitations of democracy as much as its necessity. And while neoliberals typically think government should provide social insurance and public goods, they are skeptical of the regulatory state, extensive government spending, and government-led countercyclical policy. https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/neoliberalism/index.html https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/neoliberalism/index.html

lordnacho 4y ago

Especially in North America, classical liberalism, liberalism, and neoliberalism are different things. Reading something like the Economist, which is British, can cause some confusion. The short story is that freedom can mean you should be free from the strictures of the state, or it can mean the state gives you more freedom by supplying certain things to you. The long story is really long.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]