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Vitamin D and Depression (2020)
- throckmortra 5y agoMy first winter in NYC was very rough and I didn't understand why at first. I got a blood test at the doc and he said my vitamin D was very low. I committed to walking in the sun at least a half hour a day, weather permitting, and I never really had issues again. Part of the issue was I was spending a lot of time walking outside but not in sunlight due to the tall buildings. Just my anecdotal 2c
- pigtailgirl 5y agowildly speculating from an evolutionary perspective - it reasons that we'd evolve such that our moods are better in light - otherwise there would be another push to stagnate vs become exposed to more - such that evolution can do it's thing - evolution tends towards evolution after all -
- tayo42 5y agoI finally got a chance to move south and this was the first winter I didn't spend being weird and existential about everything. Just kind of enjoyed life.
- carabiner 5y agoI live in Seattle and have been depressed for a while. I had my Vitamin D3 levels checked via blood test, and they were really low. Started taking 5,000 IU per day, and I feel exactly the same as before.
- numinoid 5y agoAnecdotally, I had to bump up to 10,000 IU to see a difference.
- civilized 5y agoIn this and the GP we have Vitamin D and depression in a nutshell.
- mupuff1234 5y agoDid you do another blood test to check if the levels changed?
- trash3 5y agoCheck your diet. Just because you take vitamin d supplements doesn't mean it gets absorbed into your bloodstream.
- tomatowurst 5y ago5000 IU is really too much. At best 2000, 2500 IU is good.
- dralley 5y ago5000 isn't too much when you're catching up from a deficiency.
- BenjiWiebe 5y agoI took 15k IU daily (at the advice of my doctor) for several months at one point to get my levels back up. I don't remember the numbers, but my levels were extremely low.
- Vecr 5y agoNo, 5000 IU per day is generally considered the highest non megadose. Make sure it is good quality (D3, USP in the US), and it should be fine. Some people say also to take K2 (also make sure it's USP in the US), but I'm not sure the exact supposed mechanism of protection from adverse effects from D3. Something about preventing calcium from leaching from the bones and accumulating in the blood, I think.
- pmoriarty 5y ago"Vitamin D controls the absorption of calcium into the blood. Vitamin K2 controls where that calcium ends up. "Over-supplementation of vitamin D3 without ample vitamin K2 leads to problems of excess calcium. "If calcium isn’t laid into bone, it will find itself in other tissues, like your arteries. Calcium in the arteries is BAD. It contributes to atherosclerosis and vessel stiffness." https://dralexrinehart.com/articles/the-vitamin-d-and-vitamin-k2-connection-understanding-the-mechanisms-what-to-test-and-how-much-d3-and-k2-to-take/ https://dralexrinehart.com/articles/the-vitamin-d-and-vitami...
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- cashsterling 5y agoIt can take a while for your Vit-D levels to rise, even with supplementing 5k IU per day... I would check your levels again. And, of course, Vit-D is not the only contributor to depression so it might be good to see a GP and/or get a general blood panel done.
- olah_1 5y agoI have never felt an affect from oral vitamins in any situation. Sitting in the sun however seems to do more than just “increase vitamin d levels”. The sensation is just overwhelmingly lovely. It seems to reduce cortisol, makes you feel tired in a euphoric way. Animals love to warm their fur in shafts of sunlight too. Perhaps we should be thinking more in terms of joyful activities in general and less trying to biohack.
- hnick 5y agoYes sunlight makes me extremely tired, like if I go for a walk or a picnic or something I'll end up far more exhausted than anything else can explain. I wonder if it's some kind of overcompensating effect due to my typical lack of it.
- __ryan__ 5y agoThat narrative might work for you, but the bio-hack narrative might work for others. Maybe the takeaway is to go into things with a positive attitude but also take a personal inventory and adapt if something that is supposed to work doesn’t work for you.
- AlbertCory 5y ago> Animals love to warm their fur in shafts of sunlight too. Indeed. My dog always lies in the sun for a while when he goes outside. Once he's warm enough, he moves to the shade. Animals know.
- supertofu 5y agoMy blind cat always seeks sun spots as well!
- rohitb91 5y ago100% the same for me as well. When I sit in the sun I feel invigorated, I Feel a rush of pleasant feelings throughout my body. I take vitamin D regularly, 4000iu+, and I don’t feel anything remarkable. With the sun it’s almost an instant jolt of joy.
- DoreenMichele 5y agoSeattle is extremely damp and temperate, so you see a lot of mold and allergens there year round. If redressing your vitamin D levels doesn't fix it, look for hidden mold and/or allergies.
- Trasmatta 5y agoSince you're in Seattle, check out bright light therapy as well.
- xwowsersx 5y agodid you get blood work done again though after taking the 5K IUs for a while? it's possible that the supplementation didn't bring your Vit D levels to within range and you need 10K IUs+. Of course, I'm not suggesting this would necessarily help with your depression, but just pointing that you gotta be scientific/anecdotal when it comes to supplementation/blood panels
- femiagbabiaka 5y ago10k IU's a day is what it took me. I found that value almost by accident, while starting to follow Stan Efferding's Vertical Diet, which recommends that as a part of a suite of daily vitamins (it is much better than the name belies). IMO anyone who works a desk job should take 10k IU's daily. I fell out of the habit during covid quarantine and my levels (and my mood) were dangerously low when I came out on the other side.
- TameAntelope 5y ago5k IUs is well beyond anything your body has a use for, and in fact is above what your body can tolerate! [0] > RDA: The Recommended Dietary Allowance for adults 19 years and older is 600 IU daily for men and women, and for adults >70 years it is 800 IU daily. > UL: The Tolerable Upper Intake Level is the maximum daily intake unlikely to cause harmful effects on health. The UL for vitamin D for adults and children ages 9+ is 4,000 IU. So it's possible your 5k IUs were causing you more harm than good. [0] https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/vitamin-d/ https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/vitamin-d/
- mikenew 5y agoThose numbers are wrong by an order of magnitude, because the original estimation was based on faulty math. The actual dose needed to bring serum levels up for most people would be far higher. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4210929/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4210929/
- TameAntelope 5y agoI'm going to go ahead and trust Harvard Medicine over a single study that has since gone largely uncited, and was published in "Nutrients" which carries an h-index of 115 (Nature, for example, carries an h-index of 1226) [0][1]. [0] https://www.scimagojr.com/journalsearch.php?q=19700188323&tip=sid&clean=0 https://www.scimagojr.com/journalsearch.php?q=19700188323&ti... [1] https://www.scimagojr.com/journalsearch.php?q=21206&tip=sid&clean=0 https://www.scimagojr.com/journalsearch.php?q=21206&tip=sid&...
- beowulfey 5y agoYou should never judge an article by where it was published (some exceptions of course), only in the quality of the work. Impact factors are loosely a measurement of significance of the work, in terms of how broadly applicable they are to the fields of science. It is absolutely not a strict measure of the expected quality of the article. Also, for what it's worth, most of the articles referenced in the Harvard Medicine review referring to dosages are from before 2010, so they may be out of date.
- carabiner 5y agoTo answer a bunch of questions: Yes, I had bloodwork done later showing my D3 level in the typical range. Whether that was due to the supplement, or diet, or lifestyle I can't say. I take 1 pill (USP certified) on average 2-3x per week. So not every day. I've got treatment resistant depression and have tried probably everything else you're about to suggest. The only thing that kind of helped was dihydrotestosterone, but that is now illegal in the US. Also tianeptine and vorinostat, but also very hard to get in the US these days.
- laurentlbm 5y agoI have TRD too and tried so many things. It sucks.
- trts 5y agoAlso in Seattle, also recovered from treatment resistant depression. I recommend looking into TMS. I wish I had done it much sooner. Wish you luck, it’s been an especially gloomy year here.
- carabiner 5y agoTried it through Neurostim in Bellevue. Didn't work. Waiting for the Stanford SAINT protocol to be approved.
- tsol 5y agoDid you try vorinostat yourself to treat depression, or was it coincidental? I never heard of that for depression, but looking at the mechanism it can make sense-- some HDAC inhibitors have powerful effects on mental issues
- pmoriarty 5y ago"I've got treatment resistant depression and have tried probably everything else you're about to suggest." I bet you haven't tried MDMA therapy.
- m348e912 5y agoI've run into this too. It's worth noting that there are a few different types of vitamin D. ergocalciferol - vitamin d2 derived from plants cholecalciferol - vitamin d3 from sunlight - vitamin d3 derived from lanolin washed from lambs wool - vitamin d3 derived from lichen I've tried a few different types, many don't seem to make me feel any different. Liquid vitamin d3 [0] seems to work well at doses above 5k IU. [0] https://www.amazon.com/Designs-Health-Emulsi-D3-Emulsified-Vitamin/dp/B0039N3J58/ https://www.amazon.com/Designs-Health-Emulsi-D3-Emulsified-V...
- penetrarthur 5y agoI wasn't depressed but had low energy levels. I started taking 24,000 IU a day and within two weeks I had way more energy, constantly elevated mood and just felt happy overall. I recently lowered the dose to 12,000 IU per day. I did blood test before that and I had super low Vitamin D3 levels and I live quite far up north.
- KennyBlanken 5y agoIn the northeast during wintertime, it's impossible to accumulate enough vitamin D from sunlight, especially not from such a short period of time, fully clothed. Even if you were not fully clothed, there's so little UV making to you because of the sun's low angle and distance.
- throwingrocks 5y agoHow did you narrow down the issue to sunlight exposure? Seems plausible that, being new to NYC as you say, there could have been an adjustment period that you eventually moved past? Not trying to dismiss your experience. I just haven’t experienced making one small change in my life and seeing significant benefits.
- zamfi 5y agoIf you were walking around outside in the winter and this helped, that's pretty good evidence that sun exposure is beneficial for you outside of vitamin D production. In the winter months in NYC, the UV intensity is too low to cause vitamin D production in the skin.
- radu_floricica 5y agoThat was most likely seasonal affective disorder (SAD, or winter blues). I've had a bad winter once something like 20 years ago, and it was so bad that I'm still obsessed with proper indoor lighting. tl;dr of it is that you want soft, yellow light in the evenings, and full spectrum, much more powerful than you think in the rest of the day, especially mornings.
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- lordentropy 5y agoDaily morning and afternoon exposure to bright light might actually be more important to reducing depression than direct vitamin D supplementation. Low vitamin D might just be an indicator that you are not getting enough sunlight. Sunlight also affects melatonin and serotonin levels, and synchronizes your Circadian rhythm. Not sure why that article doesn't talk about Seasonal affective disorder (SAD), and how bright light therapy is considered an effective treatment for it.
- juve1996 5y agoAnecdotally agree with this. I have vitamin D deficiency, was given 50,000 IU a week vitamin D to get it up. Never worked. Went to the beach one week and got blood tested again and my vitamin D levels climbed significantly. Now I make it a point to get outside and sunlight
- csdreamer7 5y ago> was given 50,000 IU a week vitamin D to get it up. It should have gone up significantly. I wonder if your body has a problem with Vit D absorption. I was put on the same dose of vit d for a treatment and I felt it within 20 minutes.
- chrisco255 5y agoIs vitamin D fat soluble? If so, pretty sure it needs to be consumed with fat. That's partly why it's common in milk.
- Jtsummers 5y agoIt is fat soluble, but it doesn't need to be consumed with fat. It's believed that that will help improve uptake, though. (I don't, I take it in the mornings long before my first meal and that seems to be effective for me based on my test results.)
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- hirundo 5y agoI'm a remote worker. After an early morning standup I go outside and do yardwork in a big yard for a half hour to an hour, whenever I can. This is a pleasure that I've come to defend fiercely. When I sit back down at the keyboard my improved attitude and energy are such that I believe I make up that time in productivity before lunch. Don't know how much of that benefit is from increased vitamin D, from the forest bath, or from the exercise oxygenating my neurons. I doubt I could replace it with a pill.
- ralusek 5y agoSunlight and gardening have had such a dramatic impact on the way that I feel, it's unbelievable.
- alleskleber 5y agoFor me sunlight and some light exercise everyday were a game changer. I had tried Vitamin D supplements (1000 IU daily) before but there was barely any noticable effect.
- floppydiskette 5y agoI don’t think that’s enough, I needed 5k daily before it started working. My blood tests all come back in the correct range now.
- k__ 5y agoGood to know. I was diagnosed with low VitD and they said I should take like 1k-2k, but I didn't feel much.
- rsanek 5y agoCareful with high doses of hormones like Vitamin D -- it can have other deleterious downstream effects. https://www.devaboone.com/post/vitamin-d-part-2-shannon-s-story https://www.devaboone.com/post/vitamin-d-part-2-shannon-s-st...
- stjohnswarts 5y ago1000 is actually way below what you need probably, my doc put me on 2500 a day and it wasn't enough, I've moved to 5000 and been "normal" level ever since for several years for my annual checkout/blood/urine tests. If you have brown/black skin it can be even more, but better to start low and figure out what is enough under observation of a doctor.
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- legulere 5y ago> Overall findings were that there is a relationship between vitamin D and depression, though the directionality of this association remains unclear. Vitamin D really seems to be a good example of correlation does not imply causation. I’m looking forward to when the Vitamin D hype ebbs off and when we know what Vitamin D actually helps with.
- jghefner 5y agoVitamin D supplementation didn't affect my depression. Going for walks to get more sunlight made it worse. I understand that not everything works for everyone and I wish those around me, including my doctor, did as well so they'd stop blaming me when their "cure" doesn't work on me.
- jamal-kumar 5y ago
- jghefner 5y agoThis is what I'm talking about. The idea that "going for a walk and getting sunlight is good for depression" is so universally unchallengable that I must live somewhere terrible if it doesn't work for me.
- jamal-kumar 5y ago
- HomeGear 5y agoYou don’t know anybody happy in Portland OR? lol. What a silly statement.
- jamal-kumar 5y agoIn the entire state all I know is people on massive amounts of meds who are constantly getting into levels of misery I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole. All I can do is ask why that state, and not all the others I know people in? Even on here I had some comment thread which went on a TANGENT like 50 messages talking about how messed up it is there lately.
- chasebank 5y agoBook a two week long float down the middle fork of the Salmon river and let me know how you feel after.
- tkiolp4 5y agoI’m from Portugal. I’ve been living in Germany for 3 years. Last winter I was feeling very tired when walking, even dizzy. Doctor said I got very low levels of vitamin D. I never felt depressed, though.
- legopeice 5y agoIn Norlisk, Russia, the children get doses of Ultra voilet light to combat the lack of sunlight. https://allthatsinteresting.com/norilsk#8 https://allthatsinteresting.com/norilsk#8
- ahmedfromtunis 5y agoMaybe the relation is not as direct as we might think at first. Maybe the vitamin D deficiency is keeping people from going out more, which makes them feel isolated, not engaged fully with their friends and family which, in turn, pushes them to depression if they're prone to it. And that may explain why it seems that, as the writers of this paper mentioned, when some of the subjects get vitamin D the depression goes away. This can be caused by the effect of the intake on their ability to gain their more active way of life.
- jimhefferon 5y agoI live pretty far north. For months at a time here there is basically no sunlight. Sometimes people try to sell you artificial light of one kind or another. Do they work?
- SapporoChris 5y agoSome UV lamps have been shown to help the body make Vitamin D. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2846322/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2846322/ I would recommend checking to see if you're actually getting low Vitamin D level during the winter and talk to a doctor to get their opinion on best treatment.
- drited 5y agoMy understanding is that 10000 lux bulbs are accepted treatment for SAD. I live in a dull country and bought one despite not suffering from SAD. Anecdotally I find it great to help wake up in the dark winter mornings.
- aliswe 5y agoTry for cheap! Buy a floodlight ($15?) and use it as your main light when eating breakfast, for example. For me this had a huge impact - I use it as above my computer desk at home.
- SirensOfTitan 5y agoInterestingly the fix to my seasonal affective disorder was a move a couple years ago into an apartment with no blinds and tons of sun in the morning (our previous place had black out blinds). We never got to adding blinds, and we have no intention to at this point—I wake up with sunrise naturally nowadays around 6am and haven’t had SAD since. I’m of the impression that black out blinds are generally poor for sleep hygiene (unless you’re in a really bright place and they’re a necessity), as they disrupt some of the most natural and most potent zeitgebers available. That isn’t to say that a knowledgeable and enterprising person couldn’t employ black out blinds when crafting their sleep environment, but most people won’t balance the different influencing factors thoughtfully.
- ta988 5y agoDepends, they can hide streetlight too which can be disturbing sleep pretty intensely...
- jokoon 5y agoI recently wondered if bad dental hygiene can increase or cause more depression. Since oral hygiene can cause bad stuff in the stomach, maybe it can also lead to bad stuff in the digestive system...
- bromuro 5y agoDental problems do cause depression. Health problems in general. Or is depression to cause health issues? Mens sana in corpore sano.
- docmechanic 5y agoOff topic, but perhaps of interest to anyone dealing with depression. Twenty five years or so ago, someone recommended that I try St. John's Wort. I had a negative reaction - bad skin rash - but the Mayo Clinic mentions that some studies show it "can be effective for treating mild to moderate depression." https://www.mayoclinic.org/drugs-supplements-st-johns-wort/art-20362212 https://www.mayoclinic.org/drugs-supplements-st-johns-wort/a...
- rhexs 5y agoIt has plenty of drug interactions. Might as well just try a SSRI if you’re going that route.
- docmechanic 5y agoYup. I'm one of the lucky ones for whom SSRIs work.
- whatsakandr 5y agoThese types of studies are where I'd love to see frequency domain trials. I've been seriously down multiple times, got back on vitamin D, and Whoosh feel better.
- ge96 5y agoI feel amazing being outside, clear blue day, no clouds, green everywhere. I take photos on these days and use em as a wallpaper on my big monitor, so even in winter time I can remember these times.
- jcadam 5y agoUp here in Alaska I take 10,000 IU a day of Vitamin D. Doctors up here (at least the good ones) push it.
- mcv 5y agoWell, this might be uncomfortably relevant to my family. My son prefers to do nothing but lie in bed all day. At first we thought it was just puberty, but at some point, I realised that his lack of activity could also be a sign of depression. Had him tested, turns out he has vitamin D deficiency. He's taking vitamin D pills now, but I'd honestly prefer if he'd just go outside every once in a while.
- acd 5y agoCould it also be linked sunlight? Exposure to sun light creates vitamin-d.
- sershe 5y agoToo lazy to look it up in my notes now, but as far as I understand: 1) Vitamin D is low in people with all kinds of bad conditions, including depression but also heart issues/etc. 2) Supplementing vitamin D is usually not found to do anything to improve these conditions, or the effects are ambiguous, limited and minor. Clearly there's a 3rd variable. For lack of better options I call it "sun magic".