11 ms·
A social analgesic? Acetaminophen (paracetamol) reduces positive empathy
- pagutierrezn 5y ago2016 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14683173 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14683173 2020 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25540870 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25540870
- dang 5y agoThanks! Macroexpanded: In study, acetaminophen makes risky moves seem less dangerous - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25540870 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25540870 - Dec 2020 (133 comments) Acetaminophen reduces empathy for pain (2016) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14683173 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14683173 - July 2017 (93 comments) Others: Prenatal acetaminophen increases autism and ADHD risk 20% - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27362768 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27362768 - June 2021 (20 comments) Acetaminophen exposure in pregnancy linked to higher risk of ADHD, autism: study - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21415078 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21415078 - Nov 2019 (39 comments) Acetaminophen use in pregnancy linked to child's behavioral problems - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12293675 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12293675 - Aug 2016 (84 comments) Acetaminophen may hinder the brain's error-correction mechanisms - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11465452 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11465452 - April 2016 (56 comments) Acetaminophen and the War on Drugs (2009) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2211599 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2211599 - Feb 2011 (58 comments)
- SemanticStrengh 5y agoIs it a pharmacologically relevant acetyl donor btw?
- geocrasher 5y agoThis explains why some people are so stupid it hurts.
- mabbo 5y agoAcetaminophen (paracetamol) is also associated with reductions in 'social pain'.[0] > Thus, acetaminophen reduces behavioral and neural responses associated with the pain of social rejection, demonstrating substantial overlap between social and physical pain. It's a fascinating idea that social pain and physical pain are so strongly related. That depression can be viewed as a form of chronic pain, like a knee that still hurts long after the injury has healed. And perhaps then positive empathy has something to do with literally feeling the social pain of others- blunt your ability to feel social pain and you aren't as affected by it. [0]https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0956797610374741?rfr_dat=cr_pub%3Dpubmed&url_ver=Z39.88-2003&rfr_id=ori%3Arid%3Acrossref.org&journalCode=pssa& https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/095679761037474...
- inter_netuser 5y agoThat’s been known for a long time, possibly centuries. morphine was used to treat depression as late as last century, and probably remains a common folk remedy even today.
- bink 5y agoMorphine has more effects than just killing pain, however. It also provides a euphoric feeling. It's more interesting if a drug that was until now only known for removing physical pain can also provide relief for social pain.
- goldenkey 5y agoIt only does for a brief honeymoon phase. Then it's mostly a pain killer (chronic pain sufferer.)
- colechristensen 5y agoWell yes, there’s definitely a reason there are problems with opiate addictions. A differentiation between legal and illegal drugs is the legal ones poison you before they make you feel particularly amazing, the illegal ones poison you after. Take way too much acetaminophen and you get liver failure before you feel euphoria. There are arguments to be made that many illegal drugs are safer at effective doses but have risks of abuse not present in the drugs that poison you before abuse is fun.
- motohagiography 5y agoSounds like a hack for people with social anxiety as well.
- mromanuk 5y agoRecently I read about using paracetamol for social anxiety. There is a connection.
- Broken_Hippo 5y agoParacetamol and Acetaminophen are the same drug - much of the world calls it Paracetamol. Different takes on the same chemical name, though I can't remember the reason for the difference. I looked it up some years ago when I moved from the US to Europe.
- bencollier49 5y agoWell yes, if you're a fan of hypogonadism. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5044981/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5044981/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5789927/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5789927/
- danachow 5y agoThat’s quite a leap. One of those is for ibuprofen, which has virtually no similarities with acetaminophen and the first one is for a xenograft model - there are tremendous problems with getting carried away with that result as you seem to have done.
- rybosworld 5y agoThat second link seems to suggest the effect in adults is very minimal.
- nrdgrrrl 5y ago
- ipnon 5y agoPain is psychosomatic. A broken heart physically hurts, and a broken bone will ruin your mood. A similar result was found in parents with opiate abuse disorder, they were less likely to notice negative emotional states when shown pictures of children in various moods. I don't think this result is concerning except for people who are taking NSAIDs on a daily basis for long periods of time.
- acchow 5y ago> and a broken bone will ruin your mood Curious thing I've noticed - physical ailments had very little effect on my mood as a child, but have a significant impact on my mood in my 30s. Something even as simple as a cold can make me unwilling to be helpful, empathetic, etc now. Why is this?
- malloryerik 5y agoI believe we're able to reframe pain and regulate its emotional impacts through conscious reasoning. If that's right, you can change the way pain is impacting your moods. Maybe these would interest you: 1. Cerebral cortex modulation of pain, Acta Pharmacologica Sinica https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4006538/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4006538/ 2. Let it be: mindful acceptance down-regulates pain and negative emotion, Social Cognitive and Affective Neuroscience https://academic.oup.com/scan/article/14/11/1147/5716281 https://academic.oup.com/scan/article/14/11/1147/5716281
- midislack 5y agoEmpathy must be stored in the liver which Tylenol also destroys.
- jpmattia 5y agoPsych study with n=114. Given the reproducibility crisis in psychology, I'll wait for the replication.
- madrox 5y agoI tend to agree. While I think the sample size is fine, the way perceived positivity and perceived pleasure were measured seems pretty subjective in a way I find hard to generalize. The paper does seem awfully suggestive, though. Worthy of more exploration for sure.
- FastMonkey 5y agoAll undergrads from a single university also. Just based on the social development of people as they go through undergrad, I'd guess that the variance in behavioural change before and after treatment is fairly high whether they're treated or not.
- snovv_crash 5y agoJust like a lot of pharma papers need a `... in mice` appended to their titles, a lot of psych papers need `... in undergrads` appended to theirs.
- raddan 5y agoSure, do that. But also: > The power analysis used a power criterion of (1 − β) = 0.80, which indicated that a mean cell size of n = 54 was sufficient to replicate significant effects of acetaminophen. The question is not whether n=114 is "large enough" because that question, by itself, does not make sense. The question is whether n=114 is "large enough for the observed effect." Given that the p-values for the "personal pleasure" and "empathetic feelings" measures are under 0.001, the answer is "yes," potential methodological issues notwithstanding.
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- teaearlgrey_hot 5y ago
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- Tylenol 5y agoWhen I can't sleep because my mind is racing, or I am anxious about something, I take 1000mg of acetaminophen, the stress is relieved, and within an hour I am asleep. When bad things happen to me, or I'm anxious about something, I take 1000mg of acetaminophen and the stress is quickly blunted. Acetaminophen is a miracle drug for psychological pain, and it is very safe if used occasionally in small doses (as described above).
- brimble 5y agoI use weed for both these cases—shutting my mind up so I can sleep and/or dulling physical pain in case of illness so I can sleep, if it doesn't rise to the level of needing/being-able-to-get serious painkillers, plus (at lower doses, and far less often) for reducing anxiety during waking hours. Works great, wish I'd started years ago. Leaves me much better-rested in the morning than other prescription sleep aids I've tried. On nights when I know I'll have a nice 9ish hours uninterrupted, I pair it with a little melatonin to keep me from waking up completely if I stir a little after the weed's worn off, and it's the best damn sleep of my life. A+++++ would recommend. Screw you for lying to me, William S. Sessions.
- gilbetron 5y agoWhen it became legal here several years ago, I tried it out a bunch. Turns out I'm the kind of person that cannabis generally makes anxious/paranoid. Probably for the best, but I'm kind of bummed it isn't as fun as people always made it out to be.
- Timpy 5y agoI don't think 1000mg is a small dose, I'm not a doctor but that seems like an extra-strength portion to me
- mattkrause 5y agoThe "standard dosage unit" in Canada is 325 mg (for adults), with extra-strength pills containing 500 or 650 mg. 1000 mg is pushing the daily limit (4000 mg, but it's got a halflife of ~6 hrs, so...)
- mikkergp 5y agoa "potent" physical painkiller . Does anyone know if the word potent here is meant to be scientific or emotional? It feels emotional, the dictionary definition is "having great power, influence, or effect." which seems weird to jump out the gate with such a subjective word for an over the counter painkiller.
- dvh 5y agoI was once taking out trash in the middle of the night and I've overheard neighbor's conversation: "What's the strongest thing you have here for headache and if you say Tylenol I'm gonna kill you!"
- astrange 5y agoIt means "effective at regular doses". https://ascpt.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/cpt196675577 https://ascpt.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/cpt196... Of course, an issue with acetaminophen is that if you take more than the regular dose you will die of liver failure.
- dkh 5y agoAnother study linking these. The prospect of humans in some places maybe experiencing different things and making different decisions than they would've because for a couple generations everyone has been taking a ton of Tylenol and it reduced everyone's collective empathy... that is terrifying to me.
- jamiek88 5y agoWhat’s terrifying to me is the casual nature of use of this powerful drug. Even for the slightest pain we’ll take a couple of basically free pills and think nothing of it. The older you get the more power you have the more aches and pains the less empathy. Huh. Explains a bit! :) The links with adhd and autism are scary too. My hypochondriac mother guzzled these pills like candy.
- ovulationkit 5y ago[flagged]
- rapjr9 5y agoSo perhaps acetaminophen (Tylenol) is responsible for the increasing political divide in the USA and in the world? People literally care less about each other because their empathy is being blunted. How long does the effect last? Days at least if I remember previous reports correctly. There are a LOT of people using acetaminophen often. If the effect lasted a week would just one pill a week make you a less caring person? This seems like it could be a really big deal.
- HNHatesUsers 5y ago
- astrange 5y agoIf you're worried about mass emotional issues from medication, statins are one to look at. https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200108-the-medications-that-change-who-we-are https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200108-the-medications-...
- rapjr9 5y agoSteroids cause problems with rage also. Still more people probably take acetaminophen than both steroids and statins combined. Some people probably take all three. Rage is a somewhat different manifestation than lack of empathy also.
- threads2 5y agoIt also reduces compensatory affirmation: The Common Pain of Surrealism and Death: Acetaminophen Reduces Compensatory Affirmation Following Meaning Threats https://www2.psych.ubc.ca/~heine/docs/2013%20Acetaminophen%20and%20David%20Lynch.pdf https://www2.psych.ubc.ca/~heine/docs/2013%20Acetaminophen%2... > They ... watched a 4-min clip from the short film Rabbits, created by David Lynch (2002) > acetaminophen interrupts the typical compensatory responses to meaning threats ... > acetaminophen has more far-reaching psychological consequences than previously realized Though not a huge n, n=121.
- photochemsyn 5y agoAcetaminophen is best avoided in my opinion. Long term liver damage is a major issue, particularly in conjunction with alcohol. There's also some evidence it's linked to cancer, and why take the risk? Ibuprofen (Advil) is probably much preferable in most cases, though definitely not for long-term chronic pain. Long-term chronic pain is one condition where opiates actually make sense, although studies demonstrate that using cannabis + opiates allows the opiate dosage to be kept below the addiction threshold while providing equivalent relief.
- robocat 5y ago> There's also some evidence it's linked to cancer Isn’t everything? I would love to see a site that was more about the relative risks of cancer. Or even better, that queries us for our behaviours and then suggests where to spend our efforts to improve our quality of life, based on well supported research.
- toast0 5y agoWARNING: Reading this comment is known to the State of California to cause cancer and birth defects or other reproductive harm.
- geocrasher 5y agoThe moral of the story is this: Stay out of California. everything causes cancer there.
- arcticbull 5y agoplane_with_red_dots.jpeg
- robocat 5y agoWe all have a risk of cancer per hour, so there is definitely a direct scientifically sound relationship between time spent reading your comment and the risk of cancer. It wouldn’t surprise me to find cancer risks associated with using specific devices (to read your comment). I presume there could be less likely psychological cause and effect: for example perhaps your comment causes anxiety and sleep deprivation with cancer as a side effect.
- donclark 5y ago
- scotty79 5y agoConservative views don't come from lack of empathy. They come from anxiety about your safety. You can make liberal more conservative by priming him to think about his own vulnerability and death and you can make conservative more liberal by priming him to think of himself as invulnerable superhero
- donclark 5y agoParanoid safety peeps eh? I would still like to see if there is any data correlation.
- scotty79 5y agoMy source is: https://www.businessinsider.com/how-to-turn-conservatives-liberal-john-bargh-psychology-2017-10?IR=T https://www.businessinsider.com/how-to-turn-conservatives-li... I should have put it in my original message because downvote button is way closer than google search box.
- nsdfg425sf 5y ago[flagged]
- spfzero 5y agoYou have to suspect that the underlying reason people are taking a pain reliever in the first place also makes them less empathetic to others. That could even be a larger effect than the one found in the study. Understand that's controlled for in the OA, just mentioning another aspect in real-life situations.
- moron4hire 5y agoAre you saying that you think people who want relief from their own pain are people who have reduced empathy toward others?
- scotty79 5y agoIt might be that just being in pain yourself can lower your empathy. For example your body could raise pain threshold a bit so it's easier for you to suffer your pain which could cause empathetic pain not to register at all.
- seunosewa 5y agoIn this experiment participants didn't get to choose whether they would get paracetamol or not, so that shouldn't be a factor.
- spfzero 5y agoRight, I mentioned it was controlled for. I meant people not in a study, that are in pain, being less empathetic to others. The study showed that people taking this drug became less empathetic, due to the drug, not the pain. I'm saying there is an additional consideration based on experiencing pain, that you then may or may not take drugs for, but that has its own effect.
- throw149102 5y agoIt would be interesting to see a study on whether Tylenol reduces empathy in people who are sick/in chronic pain. My guess would be that Tylenol increases empathy in these situations, despite the general effect it has in reducing empathy. It's hard to empathize with others when you're in pain yourself. Brings about a good question - if you have a headache, and you take Tylenol, do you become more or less empathetic? If the answer is you become more empathetic, that indicates that instead of Tylenol being the bad guy, we should try to reduce the prevalence of headaches (or pains that cause people to take Tylenol) in general.
- jshnchtdjjf 5y agoAlways fun to read about how doctors recently learn about things that everyone else already knew and have coined the term "common sense" for.
- acchow 5y ago"MDMA can help treat depression!" You don't say...
- metamuas 5y agoJust remember, don't take Tylenol if you are in pain, as you can die from liver poisoning quite quickly. "Engstrom suffered an accident in the lab when a monitor fell on his foot. He took too much Tylenol which caused liver toxicity, and died on December 1, 2020"[0]. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Engstrom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Engstrom
- make3 5y ago"too much", if you take small amounts not too often, it's fine
- bufferoverflow 5y agoI don't see how you make a leap from "he took too much Tylenol" to "don't take Tylenol". Anything will kill you in a large enough dose. Drinking water will.
- semanticist 5y agoPossibly the important missed part here: the effective dose for paracetamol is alarmingly close to the dangerous dose. Dosage rules allow for 4g/day, 5g/day can cause liver damage. It's also common to find paracetamol in multiple products - so you can take some painkillers, then not realise that the lemsip you're taking for the sniffles also has paracetamol and now you've put your liver at risk.
- elevaet 5y agoI wonder if people with naturally high pain tolerance would also have reduced positive empathy?
- pyuser583 5y agoThat’s really fascinating. I take tons of the stuff. Should I worry?
- aaaaaaaaata 5y agoAnecdotally, I've noticed some stuff in people close to me. Read more while using ibuprofen, probably?
- rramadass 5y agoRelated and more accessible article from BBC Future (must read) - The medications that change who we are : https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200108-the-medications-that-change-who-we-are https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200108-the-medications-... Excerpt: Mischkowski’s own research has uncovered a sinister side-effect of paracetamol. For a long time, scientists have known that the drug blunts physical pain by reducing activity in certain brain areas, such as the insular cortex, which plays an important role in our emotions. These areas are involved in our experience of social pain, too – and intriguingly, paracetamol can make us feel better after a rejection. Mischkowski wondered whether painkillers might be making it harder to experience empathy And recent research has revealed that this patch of cerebral real-estate is more crowded than anyone previously thought, because it turns out the brain’s pain centres also share their home with empathy. For example, fMRI (functional magnetic resonance imaging) scans have shown that the same areas of our brain become active when we’re experiencing “positive empathy” –pleasure on other people’s behalf – as when we’re experiencing pain. Given these facts, Mischkowski wondered whether painkillers might be making it harder to experience empathy. Earlier this year, together with colleagues from Ohio University and Ohio State University, he recruited some students and spilt them into two groups. One received a standard 1,000mg dose of paracetamol, while the other was given a placebo. Then he asked them to read scenarios about uplifting experiences that had happened to other people, such as the good fortune of “Alex”, who finally plucked up the courage to ask a girl on a date (she said yes). The results revealed that paracetamol significantly reduces our ability to feel positive empathy – a result with implications for how the drug is shaping the social relationships of millions of people every day. Though the experiment didn’t look at negative empathy – where we experience and relate to other people’s pain – Mischkowski suspects that this would also be more difficult to summon after taking the drug.
- jbirer 5y agoI have BPD and I self medicate with low dose Paracetamol. It makes me feel less mental pain and also less guilt/empathy that is in excess for others. It helps me function better than my medication which is quite funny.
- npteljes 5y agoWould you please share dosage, and maybe other circumstances? I'm really curious what you do and what effects you experience.
- jbirer 5y ago1000mg doses in the morning and evening. I was on Effexor and self-medicating with opioids ocassionally. The BPD is from childhood. Since Paracetamol experiment I dropped all the other drugs, I am totally functional and focused on my work now (the mental anguish was distracting and unmotivating). I am sure this is not good for my liver but I could take a reduced lifespan over the torture that is this disorder.
- npteljes 5y agoThank you very much for sharing. I agree with your judgement regarding the side effects - and it's not like antidepressants, benzos etc are that much kinder to the body.