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Only 10% royalties? Seriously? Seriously?! That is insanely low. Like, "why would anyone even remotely consider publishing with O'Reilly" low. Even if they hav

Only 10% royalties? Seriously? Seriously?! That is insanely low. Like, "why would anyone even remotely consider publishing with O'Reilly" low. Even if they have a large audience reach, 10% should be rejected out of principle.

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bartvk 4y ago
If I remember correctly, such percentages are the reason that Andy and Dave started PragProg press. They quote "up to 50%": https://pragprog.com/publish-with-us/ https://pragprog.com/publish-with-us/
- obiefernandez 4y ago
  Prag offers 50% of profit versus 10-20% of gross revenue shared by traditional publishing houses. It's often a little more money, but not as big a difference as they want you to believe. Leanpub is a much better option these days in my opinion.
  - tomcam 4y ago
    According to this PragProg do in fact offer 50% of gross. https://pragdave.me/blog/2009/10/19/pragmatic-bookshelf-royalty-rates.html https://pragdave.me/blog/2009/10/19/pragmatic-bookshelf-roya...
  - asicsp 4y ago
    Gumroad has even better pricing structure than Leanpub, but Leanpub has better UI and SEO in my experience.
- inopinatus 4y ago
  The trouble with profit-sharing is that however tightly written the agreements, you're at the mercy of the entity controlling the value chain, since they can cookie-jar any surplus out of existence. The film industry is notorious for this, so much so that such sharp practices are named for them¹. To be clear, I'm not accusing PragProg of anything of the sort, but on general principle I'd be super wary of any such deal. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hollywood_accounting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hollywood_accounting.
andi999 4y ago
10% of what? Endsales price? Not too bad.
lordnacho 4y ago
Or you can keep 100% of your own self publication monies. If 10% of whatever you think O'Reilly can get you is more it might be a reasonable deal?
- Finnucane 4y ago
  Out of which you pay for editing, copyediting, proofreading, typesetting, printing, warehousing, distribution, promotion. You will be doing pretty well if you still have 10% left after that.
  - ghaff 4y ago
    Yes, you do pretty much need to pay at least something for editing and copyediting. (Also possibly at least cover design.) But you probably shouldn't be expecting a publisher to be doing heavy editing for you either. As for the others, you also shouldn't be expecting the publisher to mail out review copies, arrange book signings, etc. Or other promotion that goes beyond just being part of the publisher's stable of books. That's going to be on you. As for the others, with print on demand someone can order a book through Amazon. No involvement on your part.
    - Finnucane 4y ago
      Where I work, we still do all those things, but it's academia. POD is pretty high unit cost. Good luck with that.
      - ghaff 4y ago
        The printing cost for a 200 or so page 6"x9" softcover in Kindle Direct Publishing with color cover and B&W interior is about $4. So if you sell it for $10, you collect about 50%. However, in my case, I give away an eBook. The book is mostly on Amazon so physical books can be ordered for a book signing at an event. I have it priced just a bit above cost. One key with editing is that you need someone willing to put in the time to do a careful job. In my experience, asking a co-worker tends not to work well. About the only time I get carefully edited (mostly copyediting) is when I'm actually working with an editor.
RicoElectrico 4y ago
Sure having a book published by O'Reilly is a good brag point on a resume. I wonder what other IT book publisher could offer similar (obviously smaller, but still) level of recognition at higher royalty rate. No Starch Press maybe?
- twox2 4y ago
  No Starch gives options for authors as far as advance/residual. Still not lucrative, but I think they have a strong brand and it's probably a good career move.
tibbon 4y ago
Not all publishers do rates this low. Lost Art Press specializes in fairly niche woodworking content. All authors get the same 50/50 profit split deal. Their books are printed with great care and quality, and the content is some of the best woodworking content available. https://lostartpress.com/pages/about-us https://lostartpress.com/pages/about-us
- LambdaComplex 4y ago
  Also, you can get a free PDF copy of The Anarchist's Workbench: https://blog.lostartpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/AWB_Consumer_June-2020_v5.1-1.pdf https://blog.lostartpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/AWB... (I liked it so much that I ended up buying physical copies of all 3 books in the Anarcist's series)
- dhosek 4y ago
  Of course that’s 50/50 of the profits vs 10% of the cover price. Bookstores pay 60% of the cover price to the distributor who typically pays around 50% to the publisher. Then there’s the cost of actually producing the book. And presumably things like editing, etc. are considered costs and not part of the publisher’s split. In the end, that 50/50 split probably comes out pretty close to 10% for the author.
tptacek 4y ago
The economics of writing a technical book for a publisher are very poor, even with better royalty rates. There's an adverse selection problem: many of the people most qualified to write a book bill out at rates that make sinking time into a book project irrational. It's a reason I take self-published technical books more seriously than "major" publisher books; the incentives are better lined up. 20 years ago, you could make an argument that working with a publisher would get your book on shelves at brick and mortar stores. But it's 2022 and to a first approximation 0% of technical book readers shop at Barnes and Noble. The other reason you can imagine someone writing a "major" publisher book is that they lead a project they want to generate attention for. An O'Reilly book about your web framework has the benefit of implicitly endorsing the framework as something mainstream. That's a valid reason to do it --- for the author. But the incentives aren't lined up well for the reader!
- ryanklee 4y ago
  What are some exemplary self-published technical books that you've read? Are there any platforms that allow for discovery of such works?
  - tptacek 4y ago
    Mastering Emacs seems like a good example. I also feel like Practical Common Lisp was self-published before Apress published it?
  - photochemsyn 4y ago
    Book Depository allows this in its Advanced Search box. https://www.bookdepository.com/search/advanced https://www.bookdepository.com/search/advanced Enter "Independently Published" for publisher, then whatever keyword you want. Using "network" turns up a really good one I'm currently working through: "Beej's Guide to Network Programming: Using Internet Sockets"
  - Narann 4y ago
    I have bought “Patterns in C” on Leanpub and have been surprised by the writing. https://leanpub.com/patternsinc https://leanpub.com/patternsinc
ssttoo 4y ago
Motivation for writing is not money. Making a living (in the US) writing technical books is highly unlikely. 10% is a nice surprise "mailbox money", not something you depend on. Whatever the motivation, you want to best product you can deliver, right? That's where a professional publisher comes in. O'Reilly is best of the three publishers I've worked with. My editors were great, they tighten the prose so much and I learned a lot about writing along the way.
- ssttoo 4y ago
  Oh, one more thing - translations. I get extra money when the book rights are sold for translation. And seeing your book in a different language is a unique feeling.
redwall_hp 4y ago
That's about normal for the publishing industry. 10-15% for hardcovers and 7-10% for paperbacks. It's also normal to be paid an advance against the royalties, so you may not even see any royalty checks if the book doesn't sell enough. Here are model terms from the Author's Guild: https://go.authorsguild.org/contract_sections/5 https://go.authorsguild.org/contract_sections/5 Musicians are paid around 10% by labels as well.
nonrandomstring 4y ago
This is the going rate. I beasted MIT up to 12%. Same for Routledge. Really famous and prolific authors can make 15% if they're pushy.
amelius 4y ago
But does it generate a better income than e.g. working a dayjob in IT? Did anyone ever get rich by writing a technical book?
- sathyabhat 4y ago
  Rich is relative - I've written two books for a publisher and a co-authorship of a self-published book. In both cases, it was nowhere enough to recover the time spent on it. However, seeing the sales figures, seeing your work cited in publications and the reactions you get from people when they say "Oh you wrote that?" - that is another feeling by itself. You have to remember that a lot of these books are written as groundwork for future plans - far easier to establish credentials saying "yeah I've written that book, you may have heard of it".
- asicsp 4y ago
  Probably? Check out https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23818859 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23818859 and https://jvns.ca/blog/2019/10/01/zine-revenue-2019/ https://jvns.ca/blog/2019/10/01/zine-revenue-2019/ It also depends on what's your goal. In my case, I was just looking for a way to pay my bills and not having to go back to a job again. My monthly expenses where I live is around $150 and I'm earning about $200 per month as a self-published author. That's more than I need and I'm grateful for that.
kjs3 4y ago
If you're writing tech books with an eye to making a living, I suspect you're barking up the wrong tree.

deleted 4y ago

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deleted 4y ago

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bartvk 4y ago

If I remember correctly, such percentages are the reason that Andy and Dave started PragProg press. They quote "up to 50%": https://pragprog.com/publish-with-us/ https://pragprog.com/publish-with-us/

obiefernandez 4y ago
Prag offers 50% of profit versus 10-20% of gross revenue shared by traditional publishing houses. It's often a little more money, but not as big a difference as they want you to believe. Leanpub is a much better option these days in my opinion.
- tomcam 4y ago
  According to this PragProg do in fact offer 50% of gross. https://pragdave.me/blog/2009/10/19/pragmatic-bookshelf-royalty-rates.html https://pragdave.me/blog/2009/10/19/pragmatic-bookshelf-roya...
- asicsp 4y ago
  Gumroad has even better pricing structure than Leanpub, but Leanpub has better UI and SEO in my experience.
inopinatus 4y ago
The trouble with profit-sharing is that however tightly written the agreements, you're at the mercy of the entity controlling the value chain, since they can cookie-jar any surplus out of existence. The film industry is notorious for this, so much so that such sharp practices are named for them¹. To be clear, I'm not accusing PragProg of anything of the sort, but on general principle I'd be super wary of any such deal. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hollywood_accounting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hollywood_accounting.

andi999 4y ago

10% of what? Endsales price? Not too bad.

lordnacho 4y ago

Or you can keep 100% of your own self publication monies. If 10% of whatever you think O'Reilly can get you is more it might be a reasonable deal?

Finnucane 4y ago
Out of which you pay for editing, copyediting, proofreading, typesetting, printing, warehousing, distribution, promotion. You will be doing pretty well if you still have 10% left after that.
- ghaff 4y ago
  Yes, you do pretty much need to pay at least something for editing and copyediting. (Also possibly at least cover design.) But you probably shouldn't be expecting a publisher to be doing heavy editing for you either. As for the others, you also shouldn't be expecting the publisher to mail out review copies, arrange book signings, etc. Or other promotion that goes beyond just being part of the publisher's stable of books. That's going to be on you. As for the others, with print on demand someone can order a book through Amazon. No involvement on your part.
  - Finnucane 4y ago
    Where I work, we still do all those things, but it's academia. POD is pretty high unit cost. Good luck with that.
    - ghaff 4y ago
      The printing cost for a 200 or so page 6"x9" softcover in Kindle Direct Publishing with color cover and B&W interior is about $4. So if you sell it for $10, you collect about 50%. However, in my case, I give away an eBook. The book is mostly on Amazon so physical books can be ordered for a book signing at an event. I have it priced just a bit above cost. One key with editing is that you need someone willing to put in the time to do a careful job. In my experience, asking a co-worker tends not to work well. About the only time I get carefully edited (mostly copyediting) is when I'm actually working with an editor.

RicoElectrico 4y ago

Sure having a book published by O'Reilly is a good brag point on a resume. I wonder what other IT book publisher could offer similar (obviously smaller, but still) level of recognition at higher royalty rate. No Starch Press maybe?

twox2 4y ago
No Starch gives options for authors as far as advance/residual. Still not lucrative, but I think they have a strong brand and it's probably a good career move.

tibbon 4y ago

Not all publishers do rates this low. Lost Art Press specializes in fairly niche woodworking content. All authors get the same 50/50 profit split deal. Their books are printed with great care and quality, and the content is some of the best woodworking content available. https://lostartpress.com/pages/about-us https://lostartpress.com/pages/about-us

LambdaComplex 4y ago
Also, you can get a free PDF copy of The Anarchist's Workbench: https://blog.lostartpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/AWB_Consumer_June-2020_v5.1-1.pdf https://blog.lostartpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/AWB... (I liked it so much that I ended up buying physical copies of all 3 books in the Anarcist's series)
dhosek 4y ago
Of course that’s 50/50 of the profits vs 10% of the cover price. Bookstores pay 60% of the cover price to the distributor who typically pays around 50% to the publisher. Then there’s the cost of actually producing the book. And presumably things like editing, etc. are considered costs and not part of the publisher’s split. In the end, that 50/50 split probably comes out pretty close to 10% for the author.

tptacek 4y ago

The economics of writing a technical book for a publisher are very poor, even with better royalty rates. There's an adverse selection problem: many of the people most qualified to write a book bill out at rates that make sinking time into a book project irrational. It's a reason I take self-published technical books more seriously than "major" publisher books; the incentives are better lined up. 20 years ago, you could make an argument that working with a publisher would get your book on shelves at brick and mortar stores. But it's 2022 and to a first approximation 0% of technical book readers shop at Barnes and Noble. The other reason you can imagine someone writing a "major" publisher book is that they lead a project they want to generate attention for. An O'Reilly book about your web framework has the benefit of implicitly endorsing the framework as something mainstream. That's a valid reason to do it --- for the author. But the incentives aren't lined up well for the reader!

ryanklee 4y ago
What are some exemplary self-published technical books that you've read? Are there any platforms that allow for discovery of such works?
- tptacek 4y ago
  Mastering Emacs seems like a good example. I also feel like Practical Common Lisp was self-published before Apress published it?
- photochemsyn 4y ago
  Book Depository allows this in its Advanced Search box. https://www.bookdepository.com/search/advanced https://www.bookdepository.com/search/advanced Enter "Independently Published" for publisher, then whatever keyword you want. Using "network" turns up a really good one I'm currently working through: "Beej's Guide to Network Programming: Using Internet Sockets"
- Narann 4y ago
  I have bought “Patterns in C” on Leanpub and have been surprised by the writing. https://leanpub.com/patternsinc https://leanpub.com/patternsinc

ssttoo 4y ago

Motivation for writing is not money. Making a living (in the US) writing technical books is highly unlikely. 10% is a nice surprise "mailbox money", not something you depend on. Whatever the motivation, you want to best product you can deliver, right? That's where a professional publisher comes in. O'Reilly is best of the three publishers I've worked with. My editors were great, they tighten the prose so much and I learned a lot about writing along the way.

ssttoo 4y ago
Oh, one more thing - translations. I get extra money when the book rights are sold for translation. And seeing your book in a different language is a unique feeling.

redwall_hp 4y ago

That's about normal for the publishing industry. 10-15% for hardcovers and 7-10% for paperbacks. It's also normal to be paid an advance against the royalties, so you may not even see any royalty checks if the book doesn't sell enough. Here are model terms from the Author's Guild: https://go.authorsguild.org/contract_sections/5 https://go.authorsguild.org/contract_sections/5 Musicians are paid around 10% by labels as well.

nonrandomstring 4y ago

This is the going rate. I beasted MIT up to 12%. Same for Routledge. Really famous and prolific authors can make 15% if they're pushy.

amelius 4y ago

But does it generate a better income than e.g. working a dayjob in IT? Did anyone ever get rich by writing a technical book?

sathyabhat 4y ago
Rich is relative - I've written two books for a publisher and a co-authorship of a self-published book. In both cases, it was nowhere enough to recover the time spent on it. However, seeing the sales figures, seeing your work cited in publications and the reactions you get from people when they say "Oh you wrote that?" - that is another feeling by itself. You have to remember that a lot of these books are written as groundwork for future plans - far easier to establish credentials saying "yeah I've written that book, you may have heard of it".
asicsp 4y ago
Probably? Check out https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23818859 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23818859 and https://jvns.ca/blog/2019/10/01/zine-revenue-2019/ https://jvns.ca/blog/2019/10/01/zine-revenue-2019/ It also depends on what's your goal. In my case, I was just looking for a way to pay my bills and not having to go back to a job again. My monthly expenses where I live is around $150 and I'm earning about $200 per month as a self-published author. That's more than I need and I'm grateful for that.

kjs3 4y ago

If you're writing tech books with an eye to making a living, I suspect you're barking up the wrong tree.