6 ms·

> Neuro normative? Good grief. They don't want to work in the office - no need to gobbledygook it up in some bizarre appeal to authority. I'm not sure what you

by lghh 4y ago

> Neuro normative? Good grief. They don't want to work in the office - no need to gobbledygook it up in some bizarre appeal to authority. I'm not sure what you're saying here. Do you not think neuro-normativity is a real thing? Or do you think that neuro-divergent people will be worse off with a truly flexible work-from-home policy? I don't think they are requesting that the office cease to exist. It sounds like they want a hybrid approach that has no required office time. > A lot of these younger folks pushing for full time remote at the start of their career are putting themselves into a box I don't think they fully appreciate This is condescending. It assumes that people who want full-time remote are not aware of the trade offs. I try to think better of people when they make an effort at self-determination. They know their lives better than I do, I imagine.

spullara 4y ago
There is no possible way for someone just out of college to actually understand the tradeoffs. Young people have little to no experience with building a career or what it entails.
- danaris 4y ago
  There is no possible way for you—or any of us, at this present moment—to know just how those tradeoffs and the shape of work will be changed over the next few decades by this pandemic, its aftershocks, and the new understanding we have all gained of just what is really possible with remote work. The idea that because you've been working for a decade or two and know how things were before the pandemic, these poor, dumb college kids should just listen to you and let you tell them that everything has always been this way and always will be this way just doesn't hold up to basic scrutiny.
  - Grustaf 4y ago
    They should just accept that they voluntarily joined a company that has always been very skewed towards in office work.
  - EricE 4y ago
    lol - the pandemic isn't permanent. It was a great force to help force normalization of remote work at organizations that otherwise would have never embraced it - but thinking that all companies are going to suddenly change their corporate culture because of a couple year event is laughable. Maybe Apple will loose enough talent over time to where their corp culture will have to adapt. I doubt it. Wouldn't mind if I'm wrong (I think at least having the option for at least some remote work is overall very healthy overall), but I'm not holding my breath.
- throwaway0a5e 4y ago
  We can just generalize this to "you don't know what you don't know". It's not like HN has any shortage of late career professionals peddling asinine takes on things they just don't have the subject matter experience in or have out of date info.
- tedivm 4y ago
  Frankly neither do most old people- the number of older folks who still think you can show up to a business with a resume and get a job at the start of your career are out of their mind. I've been working in this industry for 17 years now, and only five of that was in an office. I make an obscene amount of money, so it's not like this has harmed me. The idea that the kids need to suffer through an office so they know what it'll do to their career is about as out of date as the resume advice above.
  - listless 4y ago
    Working remotely is career limiting. Period. I’m saying that as a remote worker. I would not recommend that you get into full time remote work until you’ve decided you are OK with no significant career advancement.
    - lghh 4y ago
      I have significantly advanced my career working remote full time. You sound like you personally have been unable to advance your career and instead of being introspective about it are blaming it on remote work as a concept. Period.
      - birdyrooster 4y ago
        You are the exception that proves the rule.
    - onion2k 4y ago
      I would not recommend that you get into full time remote work until you’ve decided you are OK with no significant career advancement. I think I'd agree with you unless something crazy happened, like a global pandemic that completely shifted the way companies think and made them massively more likely to recruit remote workers. If that happened then you'd have to be daft to think it wouldn't change anything.
    - smeej 4y ago
      Trying to force my neuro-divergent brain to work in an office setting where I'm surrounded by noisy people (any people, really), lights that may flicker, and temperatures I can't control is going to limit my career a lot more than failing to have serendipitous conversations in a hallway. What works for you may not be what works for everybody, and that's the point. It could be that remote work would have limited your career advancement. For me, it's the only reason I can have a career at all.
specialist 4y ago
From the OC: "They said that Apple's reasons for implementing the policy don't stand up, and that the policy is wasteful, inflexible and will lead to a "younger, whiter, more male-dominated, more neuro-normative, more able-bodied" workforce." I, for one, have no idea what neuro-normative means. Anywho, u/EricE isn't agreeing or disagreeing. They're just advising that people can just state their preference plainly, no tortured nonsensical rationalizations necessary. "If you're explaining, you're losing." -- Lee Atwater Labor now has greater power. Wield it. Those who would take away your power don't bother to explain themselves. Why should Labor? Unless, of course, you'd rather be right, over actually winning.
- EricE 4y ago
  >Unless, of course, you'd rather be right, over actually winning. And thus the majority of friction in todays discourse. Something I still fall prey to more than I like and try to stay vigilant of so thanks for pointing it out!
- shrimp_emoji 4y ago
  >I, for one, have no idea what neuro-normative means. Having no psychological/developmental conditionals recognized by the DSM
  - Spooky23 4y ago
    Thats quite a privileged statement. Psychology applies cultural and personal norms to fit people into little boxes.
    - specialist 4y ago
      Yup. There's a term for that: neuro-normative. More seriously... I'm totally on board with navel gazing. But I don't see how (mis)using such terms helps this letter's authors make the case for having the individual choice to work remotely. So performative.
- banannaise 4y ago
  > I, for one, have no idea what neuro-normative means. So do you plan to learn what it means, or do you believe that language should remain exactly as it was at some arbitrary point in the past?
EricE 4y ago
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- stuff4ben 4y ago
  You know the answer to this is "ok boomer" right? But seriously you hit upon a lot of topics us older folks seem to get and younger folks don't and also vice versa. It's also well within their rights to demand remote work and not have to go into the office at all. Perhaps younger minds are better at collaboration than older minds? And even as an older guy who had a "butts in seats" policy when I managed folks, I don't buy the argument that working remotely has serious tradeoffs. If they were so bad, open source software would never have taken off. You don't have to be in the office to collaborate effectively. Maybe if your personality demands it, but a lot of us introverts (or non-neuro-normative if you will) kinda like not being around people who talk all the time.
  - EricE 4y ago
    >You know the answer to this is "ok boomer" right? Yup, and when they get to my age funnily enough they will be sounding much like me. Much like I sound like my parents despite swearing in my naivety to never be like them :) Youth is indeed wasted on the young :p (it was wasted on me too!)
    - rectang 4y ago
      > Yup, and when they get to my age funnily enough they will be sounding much like me. They won't have all of your biases and hangups, though. They'll be out of touch with succeeding generations, but not for the same reasons.
      - EricE 4y ago
        lol - see you in 20 years my friend :)
jimbokun 4y ago
The eye rolling part is trying to tie a preference for working from home into the broader civil rights movements. You aren't just making people come into the office, you are systemically oppressing this list of marginalized people groups!

by lghh 4y ago

spullara 4y ago

There is no possible way for someone just out of college to actually understand the tradeoffs. Young people have little to no experience with building a career or what it entails.

danaris 4y ago
There is no possible way for you—or any of us, at this present moment—to know just how those tradeoffs and the shape of work will be changed over the next few decades by this pandemic, its aftershocks, and the new understanding we have all gained of just what is really possible with remote work. The idea that because you've been working for a decade or two and know how things were before the pandemic, these poor, dumb college kids should just listen to you and let you tell them that everything has always been this way and always will be this way just doesn't hold up to basic scrutiny.
- Grustaf 4y ago
  They should just accept that they voluntarily joined a company that has always been very skewed towards in office work.
- EricE 4y ago
  lol - the pandemic isn't permanent. It was a great force to help force normalization of remote work at organizations that otherwise would have never embraced it - but thinking that all companies are going to suddenly change their corporate culture because of a couple year event is laughable. Maybe Apple will loose enough talent over time to where their corp culture will have to adapt. I doubt it. Wouldn't mind if I'm wrong (I think at least having the option for at least some remote work is overall very healthy overall), but I'm not holding my breath.
throwaway0a5e 4y ago
We can just generalize this to "you don't know what you don't know". It's not like HN has any shortage of late career professionals peddling asinine takes on things they just don't have the subject matter experience in or have out of date info.
tedivm 4y ago
Frankly neither do most old people- the number of older folks who still think you can show up to a business with a resume and get a job at the start of your career are out of their mind. I've been working in this industry for 17 years now, and only five of that was in an office. I make an obscene amount of money, so it's not like this has harmed me. The idea that the kids need to suffer through an office so they know what it'll do to their career is about as out of date as the resume advice above.
- listless 4y ago
  Working remotely is career limiting. Period. I’m saying that as a remote worker. I would not recommend that you get into full time remote work until you’ve decided you are OK with no significant career advancement.
  - lghh 4y ago
    I have significantly advanced my career working remote full time. You sound like you personally have been unable to advance your career and instead of being introspective about it are blaming it on remote work as a concept. Period.
    - birdyrooster 4y ago
      You are the exception that proves the rule.
  - onion2k 4y ago
    I would not recommend that you get into full time remote work until you’ve decided you are OK with no significant career advancement. I think I'd agree with you unless something crazy happened, like a global pandemic that completely shifted the way companies think and made them massively more likely to recruit remote workers. If that happened then you'd have to be daft to think it wouldn't change anything.
  - smeej 4y ago
    Trying to force my neuro-divergent brain to work in an office setting where I'm surrounded by noisy people (any people, really), lights that may flicker, and temperatures I can't control is going to limit my career a lot more than failing to have serendipitous conversations in a hallway. What works for you may not be what works for everybody, and that's the point. It could be that remote work would have limited your career advancement. For me, it's the only reason I can have a career at all.

specialist 4y ago

From the OC: "They said that Apple's reasons for implementing the policy don't stand up, and that the policy is wasteful, inflexible and will lead to a "younger, whiter, more male-dominated, more neuro-normative, more able-bodied" workforce." I, for one, have no idea what neuro-normative means. Anywho, u/EricE isn't agreeing or disagreeing. They're just advising that people can just state their preference plainly, no tortured nonsensical rationalizations necessary. "If you're explaining, you're losing." -- Lee Atwater Labor now has greater power. Wield it. Those who would take away your power don't bother to explain themselves. Why should Labor? Unless, of course, you'd rather be right, over actually winning.

EricE 4y ago
>Unless, of course, you'd rather be right, over actually winning. And thus the majority of friction in todays discourse. Something I still fall prey to more than I like and try to stay vigilant of so thanks for pointing it out!
shrimp_emoji 4y ago
>I, for one, have no idea what neuro-normative means. Having no psychological/developmental conditionals recognized by the DSM
- Spooky23 4y ago
  Thats quite a privileged statement. Psychology applies cultural and personal norms to fit people into little boxes.
  - specialist 4y ago
    Yup. There's a term for that: neuro-normative. More seriously... I'm totally on board with navel gazing. But I don't see how (mis)using such terms helps this letter's authors make the case for having the individual choice to work remotely. So performative.
banannaise 4y ago
> I, for one, have no idea what neuro-normative means. So do you plan to learn what it means, or do you believe that language should remain exactly as it was at some arbitrary point in the past?

EricE 4y ago

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
stuff4ben 4y ago
You know the answer to this is "ok boomer" right? But seriously you hit upon a lot of topics us older folks seem to get and younger folks don't and also vice versa. It's also well within their rights to demand remote work and not have to go into the office at all. Perhaps younger minds are better at collaboration than older minds? And even as an older guy who had a "butts in seats" policy when I managed folks, I don't buy the argument that working remotely has serious tradeoffs. If they were so bad, open source software would never have taken off. You don't have to be in the office to collaborate effectively. Maybe if your personality demands it, but a lot of us introverts (or non-neuro-normative if you will) kinda like not being around people who talk all the time.
- EricE 4y ago
  >You know the answer to this is "ok boomer" right? Yup, and when they get to my age funnily enough they will be sounding much like me. Much like I sound like my parents despite swearing in my naivety to never be like them :) Youth is indeed wasted on the young :p (it was wasted on me too!)
  - rectang 4y ago
    > Yup, and when they get to my age funnily enough they will be sounding much like me. They won't have all of your biases and hangups, though. They'll be out of touch with succeeding generations, but not for the same reasons.
    - EricE 4y ago
      lol - see you in 20 years my friend :)

jimbokun 4y ago

The eye rolling part is trying to tie a preference for working from home into the broader civil rights movements. You aren't just making people come into the office, you are systemically oppressing this list of marginalized people groups!