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Don't use Grub or any bootloader if you can avoid it. I haven't used Grub in 10 years. Load Linux directly as an EFI executable via the EFISTUB approach. You a

Don't use Grub or any bootloader if you can avoid it. I haven't used Grub in 10 years. Load Linux directly as an EFI executable via the EFISTUB approach. You almost certainly only need to run two or three efibootmgr commands to accomplish this. For most people that means only the "Using UEFI directly" section is relevant. https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/EFISTUB https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/EFISTUB S3 suspend was removed as a default option by many hardware manufacturers. You will likely need to enter the BIOS to change this. There is a bug in 5.17.x kernels where suspend doesn't work with bluetooth enabled. It will be fixed soon.

LeonM 5y ago
> Don't use Grub or any bootloader if you can avoid it. I haven't used Grub in 10 years. Load Linux directly as an EFI executable via the EFISTUB approach. I run Windows dual boot, since I need (native) Windows for certain work related tasks. > S3 suspend was removed as a default option by many hardware manufacturers. You will likely need to enter the BIOS to change this. It's on, S3 is not the problem > There is a bug in 5.17.x kernels where suspend doesn't work with bluetooth enabled. It will be fixed soon. I'm not running 5.17. But frankly, I don't want to care about all this "oh, but you just have to do [insanely_technical_thing]" Sure, if I invest $LOTS_OF_TIME in it, I might be able to fix most of the issues. But this is a $3000 professional laptop, which is supposed to have good Linux support. This machine is my work equipment and I chose this expensive machine so I don't have to tinker with this stuff. It should just work.
- weberer 5y ago
  >But frankly, I don't want to care about all this "oh, but you just have to do [insanely_technical_thing]" >It should just work. Then you should buy a laptop that ships with Linux and has official support from the vendor. Like the Dell XPS Developer edition, or anything from System76.
- sigzero 5y ago
  Yeah for the most part it's a "Linux on laptops works if you <list of steps to configure things>...". At least that has been my experience. Although I have not run Linux on a laptop in years so maybe it's time to revisit that.
  - ben-schaaf 5y ago
    It's highly dependent on the specific hardware. On some everything works out of the box, others you're stuck with very little working (think Apple M1). Just like any OS you always need to ensure hardware compatibility before purchase.
  - orangepurple 5y ago
    There isn't much configuration to do if you have an X1 carbon installed with EFISTUB booting if you have the full KDE suite installed. KDE makes your interaction with any peripherals utterly seamless. If you don't want to tweak your Linux machine much, you need to go all-in on KDE.
- zamalek 5y ago
  > I run Windows dual boot, since I need (native) Windows for certain work related tasks. If your firmware has a "boot from" hotkey (usually F12), then you use that as your dual-boot menu.
- pbhjpbhj 5y ago
  >But this is a $3000 professional laptop, which is supposed to have good Linux support. // That's a big fail by Lenovo then, so why didn't you return it? When the support guys logged in to your computer to fix it, what did they do -- just go "yeah, or product is crap" and usher you away?
  - LeonM 5y ago
    > so why didn't you return it? Mostly because I had more important things to do at the time. Though not perfect, the computer does work, it does get the job done. And also, I wouldn't know which other brand/model to get. I made my decision to buy the X1E based on the HN community recommending Lenovo as having one of the best support for Linux. So if I switch to a different brand, I might end up with an even worse Linux experience, so it wasn't worth the risk to me.
    - orangepurple 5y ago
      My X1 carbon works flawlessly aside from the fingerprint scanner (never tried it) and the builtin 4G modem which requires Windows drivers to initialize on Verizon with some shady proprietary blob that is downloaded over the air.
    - nine_k 5y ago
      It's not that everything branded Lenovo runs linux flawlessly. There are know models and model lines that do so (like the T line). Usually they were / are even offered in variants with Linux preinstalled from Lenovo web site. Other models may have and do have problems, unsupported hardware, etc.
- MikusR 5y ago
  > I run Windows dual boot, since I need (native) Windows for certain work related tasks. Windows also supports EFI boot.
- e12e 5y ago
  >> Don't use Grub or any bootloader if you can avoid it. I haven't used Grub in 10 years. Load Linux directly as an EFI executable via the EFISTUB approach. > I run Windows dual boot, since I need (native) Windows for certain work related tasks. The windows/efi boot menu can handle dual boot. But, assuming you want/need secure boot and bitlocker - I'm not sure if there is an easy way to avoid having to type in recovery key on kernel updates :/ Perhaps efi > direct windows and efi > grub > Linux might work? Probably still needs recovery key for bitlocker after grub update? Maybe this is solved now - I don't dual boot any machines w bitlocker right now.
ptsneves 5y ago
By not using Grub you lose the ability to fallback on a safe kernel. That may be quite dangerous depending on how reliable kernel update is for you. I have been saved by kernel fallbacks before. Double that for laptops whose ACPI drivers randomly break from version to version, as evidenced by your note on 5.17.x kernels. Regardless I sympathize, as I recently had a good deal of trouble updating from BIOS to UEFI. The 4K issue seems to also affect Dell XPS15 and leads to a kernel panic on the latest Canonical Live CD [1] [1] https://cenains.blog/2022/05/01/converting-boot-mode-from-bios-to-uefi-in-ubuntu-with-xps15-9550/ https://cenains.blog/2022/05/01/converting-boot-mode-from-bi...
- smoldesu 5y ago
  I mean, that's not entirely true. You can chroot into your box and change your kernel if something goes horrifically wrong, the situation isn't as unsalvageable as you paint it out to be.
  - Sakos 5y ago
    It's possible but it's more inconvenient than it needs to be. I'd rather be able to select a previous kernel from a list instead of trying to remember how to change the kernel through chroot on a broken system.
    - csdvrx 5y ago
      You can totally select a different kernel if it's packaged in its own EFI payload. You can even enroll this EFI payloads from within the BIOS by just selecting the file from the EFI partition if you forgot to add them into your UEFI (ie if they don't show in your F12 boot options)
- csdvrx 5y ago
  > By not using Grub you lose the ability to fallback on a safe kernel That is factually wrong: if you create other EFI entries with different kernel payloads, then enroll them in your UEFI bios, you can select them at boot time in a menu. This is how I test cmdline options (same kernel packaged in different .EFI) If you forgot to do that before a problem, but still have the old payloads around, you can even use the UEFI to add EFI payloads by selecting their files from your EFI partition.
xfs 5y ago
I have used EFISTUB for 10 years but I wouldn't recommend it for the next install. The bootloader is the one arcane place that you don't want to be clever with and get reminded of its presence daily, because once it fails for some reason, it wastes much more time to find and read docs and diagnose than the time saved in boot speedup, because the knowledge to debug it is not something you would remember everyday. And this setup is even rarer than Grub, so any failure cases will not have help from cached knowledge and thus require much more research from first principle. Some backup options here would help in case, even if they impose some tax in boot speed. (If Grub takes a tax of 3 seconds per boot, and if a failure in EFISTUB takes 1 hour to resolve, it takes 1200 boots for EFISTUB to be worth the risk, which is 3 years if it's a laptop booting once per day, and much longer for a desktop.) Once my desktop using the EFISTUB setup had a kernel that failed to boot, stuck at some filesystem error. Then I had to come up with a rescue plan at the spot, because there was no other way to boot into the desktop and there was no tutorial to help with this at the time. The issues of EFISTUB: - It doesn't interact with kernel updates nicely. I used a script in /etc/kernel/postinst.d to copy /vmlinuz to \EFI\debian\vmlinuz.efi. There is no rollback, and no multiple kernels. - It doesn't work well with kernel parameters. The parameters are encoded in UEFI NVRAM. You have to create separate entries for different kernel parameters, or manipulate the NVRAM back and forth with efibootmgr, which is another gun that easily shoots the foot (you can easily mess up the bootorder variable). - It doesn't play nicely with Windows and Secure Boot.
- CaptainMarvel 5y ago
  I use EFTSTUB with Arch Linux and I agree about it taking up more of your time. However, for me, this was all the very start to first set it up. Since then, it’s been smooth sailing. I also use multiple kernels and I have had issues with kernel updates, and no issues with kernel parameters. However, there is friction with creating separate entries and so I created a very simple shell script to save my commands. I’ve had no issues dual booting with Windows using BitLocker. I do not use secure boot (yet). If you’re willing to spend an hour to set it up, I’d go for it. However, that’s an hour of your life you can save with Grub.
  - xfs 5y ago
vondur 5y ago
I see that you can use systemd as a boot loader (UEFI only). I've never tried it, but would like to set it up. The Arch wiki (of course) has info on it: https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/systemd-boot https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/systemd-boot
- csdvrx 5y ago
  I highly recommend that option, even if you use an Ubuntu based distribution: in 2022, there's no reason to still use grub on a UEFI system.

LeonM 5y ago

> Don't use Grub or any bootloader if you can avoid it. I haven't used Grub in 10 years. Load Linux directly as an EFI executable via the EFISTUB approach. I run Windows dual boot, since I need (native) Windows for certain work related tasks. > S3 suspend was removed as a default option by many hardware manufacturers. You will likely need to enter the BIOS to change this. It's on, S3 is not the problem > There is a bug in 5.17.x kernels where suspend doesn't work with bluetooth enabled. It will be fixed soon. I'm not running 5.17. But frankly, I don't want to care about all this "oh, but you just have to do [insanely_technical_thing]" Sure, if I invest $LOTS_OF_TIME in it, I might be able to fix most of the issues. But this is a $3000 professional laptop, which is supposed to have good Linux support. This machine is my work equipment and I chose this expensive machine so I don't have to tinker with this stuff. It should just work.

weberer 5y ago
>But frankly, I don't want to care about all this "oh, but you just have to do [insanely_technical_thing]" >It should just work. Then you should buy a laptop that ships with Linux and has official support from the vendor. Like the Dell XPS Developer edition, or anything from System76.
sigzero 5y ago
Yeah for the most part it's a "Linux on laptops works if you <list of steps to configure things>...". At least that has been my experience. Although I have not run Linux on a laptop in years so maybe it's time to revisit that.
- ben-schaaf 5y ago
  It's highly dependent on the specific hardware. On some everything works out of the box, others you're stuck with very little working (think Apple M1). Just like any OS you always need to ensure hardware compatibility before purchase.
- orangepurple 5y ago
  There isn't much configuration to do if you have an X1 carbon installed with EFISTUB booting if you have the full KDE suite installed. KDE makes your interaction with any peripherals utterly seamless. If you don't want to tweak your Linux machine much, you need to go all-in on KDE.
zamalek 5y ago
> I run Windows dual boot, since I need (native) Windows for certain work related tasks. If your firmware has a "boot from" hotkey (usually F12), then you use that as your dual-boot menu.
pbhjpbhj 5y ago
>But this is a $3000 professional laptop, which is supposed to have good Linux support. // That's a big fail by Lenovo then, so why didn't you return it? When the support guys logged in to your computer to fix it, what did they do -- just go "yeah, or product is crap" and usher you away?
- LeonM 5y ago
  > so why didn't you return it? Mostly because I had more important things to do at the time. Though not perfect, the computer does work, it does get the job done. And also, I wouldn't know which other brand/model to get. I made my decision to buy the X1E based on the HN community recommending Lenovo as having one of the best support for Linux. So if I switch to a different brand, I might end up with an even worse Linux experience, so it wasn't worth the risk to me.
  - orangepurple 5y ago
    My X1 carbon works flawlessly aside from the fingerprint scanner (never tried it) and the builtin 4G modem which requires Windows drivers to initialize on Verizon with some shady proprietary blob that is downloaded over the air.
  - nine_k 5y ago
    It's not that everything branded Lenovo runs linux flawlessly. There are know models and model lines that do so (like the T line). Usually they were / are even offered in variants with Linux preinstalled from Lenovo web site. Other models may have and do have problems, unsupported hardware, etc.
MikusR 5y ago
> I run Windows dual boot, since I need (native) Windows for certain work related tasks. Windows also supports EFI boot.
e12e 5y ago
>> Don't use Grub or any bootloader if you can avoid it. I haven't used Grub in 10 years. Load Linux directly as an EFI executable via the EFISTUB approach. > I run Windows dual boot, since I need (native) Windows for certain work related tasks. The windows/efi boot menu can handle dual boot. But, assuming you want/need secure boot and bitlocker - I'm not sure if there is an easy way to avoid having to type in recovery key on kernel updates :/ Perhaps efi > direct windows and efi > grub > Linux might work? Probably still needs recovery key for bitlocker after grub update? Maybe this is solved now - I don't dual boot any machines w bitlocker right now.

ptsneves 5y ago

By not using Grub you lose the ability to fallback on a safe kernel. That may be quite dangerous depending on how reliable kernel update is for you. I have been saved by kernel fallbacks before. Double that for laptops whose ACPI drivers randomly break from version to version, as evidenced by your note on 5.17.x kernels. Regardless I sympathize, as I recently had a good deal of trouble updating from BIOS to UEFI. The 4K issue seems to also affect Dell XPS15 and leads to a kernel panic on the latest Canonical Live CD [1] [1] https://cenains.blog/2022/05/01/converting-boot-mode-from-bios-to-uefi-in-ubuntu-with-xps15-9550/ https://cenains.blog/2022/05/01/converting-boot-mode-from-bi...

smoldesu 5y ago
I mean, that's not entirely true. You can chroot into your box and change your kernel if something goes horrifically wrong, the situation isn't as unsalvageable as you paint it out to be.
- Sakos 5y ago
  It's possible but it's more inconvenient than it needs to be. I'd rather be able to select a previous kernel from a list instead of trying to remember how to change the kernel through chroot on a broken system.
  - csdvrx 5y ago
    You can totally select a different kernel if it's packaged in its own EFI payload. You can even enroll this EFI payloads from within the BIOS by just selecting the file from the EFI partition if you forgot to add them into your UEFI (ie if they don't show in your F12 boot options)
csdvrx 5y ago
> By not using Grub you lose the ability to fallback on a safe kernel That is factually wrong: if you create other EFI entries with different kernel payloads, then enroll them in your UEFI bios, you can select them at boot time in a menu. This is how I test cmdline options (same kernel packaged in different .EFI) If you forgot to do that before a problem, but still have the old payloads around, you can even use the UEFI to add EFI payloads by selecting their files from your EFI partition.

xfs 5y ago

I have used EFISTUB for 10 years but I wouldn't recommend it for the next install. The bootloader is the one arcane place that you don't want to be clever with and get reminded of its presence daily, because once it fails for some reason, it wastes much more time to find and read docs and diagnose than the time saved in boot speedup, because the knowledge to debug it is not something you would remember everyday. And this setup is even rarer than Grub, so any failure cases will not have help from cached knowledge and thus require much more research from first principle. Some backup options here would help in case, even if they impose some tax in boot speed. (If Grub takes a tax of 3 seconds per boot, and if a failure in EFISTUB takes 1 hour to resolve, it takes 1200 boots for EFISTUB to be worth the risk, which is 3 years if it's a laptop booting once per day, and much longer for a desktop.) Once my desktop using the EFISTUB setup had a kernel that failed to boot, stuck at some filesystem error. Then I had to come up with a rescue plan at the spot, because there was no other way to boot into the desktop and there was no tutorial to help with this at the time. The issues of EFISTUB: - It doesn't interact with kernel updates nicely. I used a script in /etc/kernel/postinst.d to copy /vmlinuz to \EFI\debian\vmlinuz.efi. There is no rollback, and no multiple kernels. - It doesn't work well with kernel parameters. The parameters are encoded in UEFI NVRAM. You have to create separate entries for different kernel parameters, or manipulate the NVRAM back and forth with efibootmgr, which is another gun that easily shoots the foot (you can easily mess up the bootorder variable). - It doesn't play nicely with Windows and Secure Boot.

CaptainMarvel 5y ago
I use EFTSTUB with Arch Linux and I agree about it taking up more of your time. However, for me, this was all the very start to first set it up. Since then, it’s been smooth sailing. I also use multiple kernels and I have had issues with kernel updates, and no issues with kernel parameters. However, there is friction with creating separate entries and so I created a very simple shell script to save my commands. I’ve had no issues dual booting with Windows using BitLocker. I do not use secure boot (yet). If you’re willing to spend an hour to set it up, I’d go for it. However, that’s an hour of your life you can save with Grub.
- xfs 5y ago

vondur 5y ago

I see that you can use systemd as a boot loader (UEFI only). I've never tried it, but would like to set it up. The Arch wiki (of course) has info on it: https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/systemd-boot https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/systemd-boot

csdvrx 5y ago
I highly recommend that option, even if you use an Ubuntu based distribution: in 2022, there's no reason to still use grub on a UEFI system.