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Apple hit with EU antitrust charge over its payment technology

124 points by nojito 4y ago

JacobiX 4y ago
Excuse my ignorance, I keep seeing those hefty fines on big tech companies, but does the EU targets also other types of industries ? For example Visa Mastercard duopoly, etc
- modo_mario 4y ago
  From what I remember they are forced to use/create some open standards in the hope that it'll leave the door open just wide enough so that competition might appear...but it's done in such a way that it does not really help.
- gsnedders 4y ago
  Capping interchange fees dealt a big blow to many of the biggest problems of Visa/Mastercard duopoly (i.e., lack of incentive to reduce interchange fees).
therealbilly 4y ago
Isn't it strange that Apple invents a technology, begins to use it for their own business and then Europe says Apple is unfairly preventing other companies from using this technology? What are we missing here?
- withinboredom 4y ago
  For starters, Apple didn’t invent it. Tap to pay was around on the EU long before Apple got there with physical cards. Then it was available on Android via some banking apps, then Google, and finally Apple. Apple was literally the last company to implement this from the perspective of the EU (the Netherlands only got access to Apple Pay a couple of years ago).
theklr 4y ago
This and the laundry list of reviews from Europe should make an interesting WWDC. However, I am growing concern in the security risk these “anticompetitive” statements are. While I'd like idea of a more open iPhone, I also understand the technical aptitude of majority of their customers. This feels like a potential opening for more exploits where the iCloud leak could look like child’s play.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- yohannparis 4y ago
  To be fair both points of view are valid and easy to agree upon. Apple makes choices for its customers, though, when the EU government makes choices for its citizen. And even if the EU might be wrong, Apple must comply. Apple couldn't open the NFC payment API & technologies first to make sure the Apple Pay technology image wasn't tarnished by poor and less secure competitive payment solutions on iOS. But now, they have no excuses to allow competition. Especially if they cannot use the Apple Pay trademarks.
  - Despegar 4y ago
    >And even if the EU might be wrong, Apple must comply. Well no. If they're "wrong" then they'll lose the case when it heads to the General Court and/or the ECJ.
    - yohannparis 4y ago
      I meant "wrong" in a moral or philosophical point of view, not in the illegal meaning.
  - ntkachov 4y ago
    I think the EU had chip and tap to pay before apple. So the over there Apple looks like it implemented a solution and then blocked competitors from using the platform with already established payment terminals. In the US, the optics are very different because Google, Samsung and others came way after apple took the reigns and drove adoption of tap to pay.
charcircuit 4y ago
- lovingCranberry 4y ago
  I am the buyer of the product, so I should be able to do with my phone whatever I want. Especially use the built-in NFC chip.
  - snake_doc 4y ago
    You can use the NFC chip, just dissemble your phone and remove it and create your own circuit board to use it. Who is stopping you? Oh, you want to use it on iOS? Well that’s an entirely new complaint… Imagine if an user of a Visa credit card must be allowed to use the same magnetic stripe on the Mastercard network. Do you support that? How is Apple doing anything different?
    - tobr 4y ago
      A Visa card and an iPhone are such different products that it’s hard to know where to even begin describing the difference.
    - avianlyric 4y ago
      > Imagine if an user of a Visa credit card must be allowed to use the same magnetic stripe on the Mastercard network. Do you support that? How is Apple doing anything different? Erm, the EU has pretty much already done that. Payment networks must support competitors running over their terminals and network for a fair price. Go lookup up EuroPay, didn’t quite pan out how the EU expected. But if you wanna start a new payment network in the EU, MasterCard must help you out.
      - snake_doc 4y ago
        Some of economists may argue the Visa/Mastercard duopoly in the EU is a collusive monopoly position that hurts merchants and consumers.
DonnyV 4y ago
I wish the US would go after companies like this. Instead the US is ran for the companies.
- fsloth 4y ago
  All successful countries to a large extent are run for the companies, but the border between public, private and regulated/un-regulated is different.
- baisq 4y ago
  And that’s why all tech companies are in the US, employ people there and generate wealth there.
  - zeven7 4y ago
    Except most were also started by Americans or people who had already moved to America for other reasons.
- CountSessine 4y ago
  Apple isn’t an EU company so they get regulated hard. Volkswagen was pumping tons of NOx into the air in EU cities for years and regulators there rolled over and looked the other way the whole time. But in the US they got regulated hard.
  - thefz 4y ago
    It's because US companies are used to shitting so far outside of the can that sometimes you have to reposition them over the toilet.
  - kuschku 4y ago
    And that's why it's good to have competition and good to have multiple powers regulating each other.
    - CountSessine 4y ago
MichaelRazum 4y ago
Maybe it is the right call from the EU. I don't know honestly. BUT for a fact it seems the EU is just capable of doing antitrust over fb, google, msft, apple and so on without creating such companies by it self... So maybe over regulated?
- krageon 4y ago
  So you don't know and do not care to explore further whether or not it's doing a good job, but you want it to do less of it. A really weird take to be honest.
  - MichaelRazum 4y ago
    I would love to see EU companies like apple, fb, google and so on. Instead what I see is that the EU is just trying to regulate them, without having at least one champion in the same league. So maybe the laws are the reason that the EU is so far behind.
    - isbvhodnvemrwvn 4y ago
      Behind on tech companies, or forward in consumer rights?
      - IMTDb 4y ago
        Behind in tech companies, forward in useless consumer nagging I am looking at you, EU cookie notice.
        krageon 4y ago
        Please stop blaming these cookie notices on the law. The law clearly states no notice is required if no consent is required, but companies choose to annoy you.
        IMTDb 4y ago
philliphaydon 4y ago
Hmmm I might be the odd one out but I really don’t want apple to be opening up payment options and nfc for payment to anyone on iPhone/watch.
- isbvhodnvemrwvn 4y ago
  Why?
- jasonlotito 4y ago
  Why are you opposed to consumer choice? Why do you feel it's fair that once you purchase something form Apple, you must go through Apple to make all future purchases?
  - martimarkov 4y ago
    With the same validity I can ask why are you against security and ease of use? Ppl buy Apple products and KNOW AND ACCEPT the limitations when making that purchase. There are alternatives- get an android phone, there are plenty of brands there. I buy Apple products ESPECIALLY for the locked down OS. Why are you against my consumer choice? If any alternative store, payment, in app purchase is introduced - I’m deprived of my choice. And now there isn’t a closed OS I can use. There are actual reasons I want that OS. My parents had android devices and they got scammed at least once a month to share their details and their cards got stolen as they would download apps and those app would “guide” them how install apps from untrusted sources while promising “enabling free bank transactions access”. After moving to iOS none of that happened. I get the odd subscription I need to cancel but I do that from the phone - not another system.
    - withinboredom 4y ago
      When I got my first iPhone, such “limitations” weren’t really an issue. As a 30’s something dev, I understand them much more deeply than I did when I made the initial purchase. I now have a number of apps that I use on a daily basis, some of which I’ve paid 100’s of dollars to acquire over the years. Thus simply “getting Android,” is quite an expensive prospect and we haven’t even talked about the social implications.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
snalty 4y ago
I personally think this is probably the right decision, however I hope banks still offer both Apple Pay and their own option. Being able to switch cards from within the wallet app is a much better experience than having to open another banking app (and potentially having to sign in to that app), or having to change the default system payments app to use the card I want. Although I live in the UK so this probably won't affect me.
- ginko 4y ago
  Can you explain why you prefer paying with your phone rather than with physical cards? This seems to just have downsides to me (need to have phone charged, have to fiddle around to start payment app etc) when you can just wave a plastic card in front of a terminal and be done with it. Only potential upside I can think of would be that you don't need to bring a wallet, but you'd still need that for ID, driver's license etc. anyways.
  - xxs 4y ago
    The cool part is paying w/ your watch, and you don't really need to start any app - it's NFC anyways. Yet, I don't have the payments with phone/watch enabled.
  - apexalpha 4y ago
    On Android you just unlock your phone and hold it up to the terminal. No need to start an app first. Secondly, I prefer paying with my phone for the simple reason that I always bring my phone anyway, so now I could leave my cards at home if I wanted to.
  - jermeh 4y ago
    > have to fiddle aroudn to start payment app This isn't really a thing with Apple Pay. You double tap the power button as you grab your phone, then Apple Pay is active (pending face id or unlock via watch), it's a very smooth process. On top of that, in my experience, tap to pay (via card or phone) is much quicker to process than swiping or inserting chip.
  - chrisgd 4y ago
nodesocket 4y ago
How many times has the EU squeezed Apple for money because their policies and politics stifle innovation and don't reward success? The EU treats American tech companies like their own personal piggy bank.
- Telluur 4y ago
  Innovation? Contactless payment have been a thing for years in the EU. First on physical cards, then on android. Apple locking down NFC access for wallet apps is nothing more than a forced monopoly.
- toper-centage 4y ago
  Apple is the only stifling innovation. They own 30% of the smartphone market is the west, so the EU wants them to be regulated as a fair platform where competition can exist. The US should take a hint.
cwizou 4y ago
The reuters article is a little light on content but I found those remarks : https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/speech_22_2773 https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/speech... The complaint is about Apple not allowing 3rd party usage of their NFC chip for other wallets (or anything else for that matter. From my understanding, the access is very limited) : Quoting : As a result, users of Apple devices can only pay with the ‘tap and go' function using Apple Pay and not with other wallets. This is because competing wallet developpers need access to the NFC on Apple devices to reach Apple users. Interestingly they also say that the Digital Market Acts will regulate this : When it enters into the force, the Digital Markets Act will have a direct effect on digital payments. It will require companies designated as gatekeepers to ensure effective interoperability with hardware and software features they use themselves in their ecosystems. This includes access to NFC for mobile payments. (IANAL but I find it interesting that they mention specific upcoming regulation tailored to curtail this, while still sending to Apple what they call a Statement of Objection) My vague (and possibly completely wrong) understanding from the situation here in France is that banks have to individually sign up for this, but on the backend the payment processing is piggybacking on Mastercard/Visa payment network, as from day one, Apple Pay worked on everything (with some caveats) that accepted NFC payment (which most terminals did). Transactions show up on your receipt as (in my case) a "classic" Mastercard transaction. This doesn't seem to be the way Apple Pay is implemented everywhere though (particularly in the US) ? This may be anecdotal but I had this discussion with a restaurant owner who mentioned that Apple Pay payments from some US customers didn't work (while in my case I've noticed eu/fr variant of Apple Pay worked pretty much everywhere). This could be some random other issue though. It would be interesting to know if in other EU countries this is always the same, piggybacking on your bank/card network. While I broadly understand the idea of opening up the NFC to 3rd party wallets, it's unclear to me how much of a practical idea that would be. As someone who uses Apple Pay daily, I don't see how having to open a 3rd party wallet app would be comparatively effective, it's all about the convenience of being able to triggering it instantly. A better solution would be mandating/allowing those 3rd party wallets not only NFC integration but having their payment options showing up in Apple's Wallet so they can be triggered the same way (double tap on your iPhone/Apple Watch, which already lets you pick between various Apple Pay cards/QR codes you may have entered).
traveler01 4y ago
So if I read this correctly they're finally getting fined for closing down NFC in iPhones to their own payment system? They're so slow, this is being an issue for years, and there's really no excuse for them to do this other than just protecting their monopoly. I just switched to an Android some months ago and I can't believe on behind is Apple in certain questions. Apple Pay is a pain compared to Google Pay, and some cards aren't even available on Apple Pay for no reason.
- kmlx 4y ago
  > Apple Pay is a pain compared to Google Pay interesting. can someone expand on this?
  - d3ckard 4y ago
    Curious as well, since whatever you do not like about Apple Pay, it actually works very well (not a single issue I had).
  - traveler01 4y ago
    This how Apple Pay works to make a physical payment (which is the main case of this thread): 1 - Click two times on the iPhone powerbutton 2 - Unlock the phone with the FaceID 3 - Take the phone and put it on top of the terminal ALSO, if you're already using your phone, you must press again the powerbutton two times, unlock Apple Pay with FaceID and then put the phone on top of the terminal. Google Pay (using a Galaxy S22...) 1 - Unlock the phone using the fingerprint reader 2 - Put it on top of the terminal If you're already using the phone just put it on top of a terminal and will pay your bill. Seems like a small issue, but considering that until a few weeks ago we were still using masks, I sometimes had to input my phone pin in front of everyone to access Apple Pay, even if I had the phone unlocked before getting to the pay terminal...
    - spzb 4y ago
      That's not the way it works on my iPhone (2020 SE). Move the phone over the payment terminal, it senses the NFC terminal, wakes up with my default payment card shown, I put my thumb on the sensor and payment is made.
barkerja 4y ago
I'm 100% for choice, and I support the EU's (and any other entity) efforts to change this, but I have a simple question for those here: When you pull out your device, and raise it to a POS terminal, what is the behavior that you expect and/or desire? For me personally, the behavior I desire is basically what happens today: the digital Wallet opens, and I choose which card I want to pay with (or do nothing and allow my default card to be used). If we want to flip this experience on its head, what are our options? A configuration for NFC/payments that controls this behavior? I'm simply trying to think of the cause and effect here. I am not a designer/UX person, simply just a dumb backend engineer, but I have a strong appreciation for good UX/design and absolutely know it when I see it. Curious to hear other's thoughts/opinions on this.
- Kuinox 4y ago
  I don't understand, what stop you from having a settings that allow you to select which app manage this ?
- CharlesW 4y ago
  Apple gets 0.15% of each purchase. I think this is as simple as: Other companies want that cut for themselves, and so are pushing the EU to allow for rent-seeking on Apple's financial platform.
  - barkerja 4y ago
    I understand the /why/, but that wasn't my question. I'm curious what sort of behavior others hope/expect to see from their mobile device if things change towards a fragmented experience of apps being used for NFC payments and not our digital wallets. Are you suggesting that things basically remain the same, sans any fees?
    - CharlesW 4y ago
      > Are you suggesting that things basically remain the same, sans any fees? I'd sure hope so, unless the point for the companies lobbying for this is to kneecap the Apple Pay user experience. My feeling is that the UX itself isn't on trial since partner brands are front and center during Apple Pay transactions.

124 points by nojito 4y ago

Excuse my ignorance, I keep seeing those hefty fines on big tech companies, but does the EU targets also other types of industries ? For example Visa Mastercard duopoly, etc

modo_mario 4y ago
From what I remember they are forced to use/create some open standards in the hope that it'll leave the door open just wide enough so that competition might appear...but it's done in such a way that it does not really help.
gsnedders 4y ago
Capping interchange fees dealt a big blow to many of the biggest problems of Visa/Mastercard duopoly (i.e., lack of incentive to reduce interchange fees).

therealbilly 4y ago

Isn't it strange that Apple invents a technology, begins to use it for their own business and then Europe says Apple is unfairly preventing other companies from using this technology? What are we missing here?

withinboredom 4y ago
For starters, Apple didn’t invent it. Tap to pay was around on the EU long before Apple got there with physical cards. Then it was available on Android via some banking apps, then Google, and finally Apple. Apple was literally the last company to implement this from the perspective of the EU (the Netherlands only got access to Apple Pay a couple of years ago).

theklr 4y ago

This and the laundry list of reviews from Europe should make an interesting WWDC. However, I am growing concern in the security risk these “anticompetitive” statements are. While I'd like idea of a more open iPhone, I also understand the technical aptitude of majority of their customers. This feels like a potential opening for more exploits where the iCloud leak could look like child’s play.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
yohannparis 4y ago
To be fair both points of view are valid and easy to agree upon. Apple makes choices for its customers, though, when the EU government makes choices for its citizen. And even if the EU might be wrong, Apple must comply. Apple couldn't open the NFC payment API & technologies first to make sure the Apple Pay technology image wasn't tarnished by poor and less secure competitive payment solutions on iOS. But now, they have no excuses to allow competition. Especially if they cannot use the Apple Pay trademarks.
- Despegar 4y ago
  >And even if the EU might be wrong, Apple must comply. Well no. If they're "wrong" then they'll lose the case when it heads to the General Court and/or the ECJ.
  - yohannparis 4y ago
    I meant "wrong" in a moral or philosophical point of view, not in the illegal meaning.
- ntkachov 4y ago
  I think the EU had chip and tap to pay before apple. So the over there Apple looks like it implemented a solution and then blocked competitors from using the platform with already established payment terminals. In the US, the optics are very different because Google, Samsung and others came way after apple took the reigns and drove adoption of tap to pay.

charcircuit 4y ago

lovingCranberry 4y ago
I am the buyer of the product, so I should be able to do with my phone whatever I want. Especially use the built-in NFC chip.
- snake_doc 4y ago
  You can use the NFC chip, just dissemble your phone and remove it and create your own circuit board to use it. Who is stopping you? Oh, you want to use it on iOS? Well that’s an entirely new complaint… Imagine if an user of a Visa credit card must be allowed to use the same magnetic stripe on the Mastercard network. Do you support that? How is Apple doing anything different?
  - tobr 4y ago
    A Visa card and an iPhone are such different products that it’s hard to know where to even begin describing the difference.
  - avianlyric 4y ago
    > Imagine if an user of a Visa credit card must be allowed to use the same magnetic stripe on the Mastercard network. Do you support that? How is Apple doing anything different? Erm, the EU has pretty much already done that. Payment networks must support competitors running over their terminals and network for a fair price. Go lookup up EuroPay, didn’t quite pan out how the EU expected. But if you wanna start a new payment network in the EU, MasterCard must help you out.
    - snake_doc 4y ago
      Some of economists may argue the Visa/Mastercard duopoly in the EU is a collusive monopoly position that hurts merchants and consumers.

DonnyV 4y ago

I wish the US would go after companies like this. Instead the US is ran for the companies.

fsloth 4y ago
All successful countries to a large extent are run for the companies, but the border between public, private and regulated/un-regulated is different.
baisq 4y ago
And that’s why all tech companies are in the US, employ people there and generate wealth there.
- zeven7 4y ago
  Except most were also started by Americans or people who had already moved to America for other reasons.
CountSessine 4y ago
Apple isn’t an EU company so they get regulated hard. Volkswagen was pumping tons of NOx into the air in EU cities for years and regulators there rolled over and looked the other way the whole time. But in the US they got regulated hard.
- thefz 4y ago
  It's because US companies are used to shitting so far outside of the can that sometimes you have to reposition them over the toilet.
- kuschku 4y ago
  And that's why it's good to have competition and good to have multiple powers regulating each other.
  - CountSessine 4y ago

MichaelRazum 4y ago

Maybe it is the right call from the EU. I don't know honestly. BUT for a fact it seems the EU is just capable of doing antitrust over fb, google, msft, apple and so on without creating such companies by it self... So maybe over regulated?

krageon 4y ago
So you don't know and do not care to explore further whether or not it's doing a good job, but you want it to do less of it. A really weird take to be honest.
- MichaelRazum 4y ago
  I would love to see EU companies like apple, fb, google and so on. Instead what I see is that the EU is just trying to regulate them, without having at least one champion in the same league. So maybe the laws are the reason that the EU is so far behind.
  - isbvhodnvemrwvn 4y ago
    Behind on tech companies, or forward in consumer rights?
    - IMTDb 4y ago
      Behind in tech companies, forward in useless consumer nagging I am looking at you, EU cookie notice.
      - krageon 4y ago
        Please stop blaming these cookie notices on the law. The law clearly states no notice is required if no consent is required, but companies choose to annoy you.
        IMTDb 4y ago

philliphaydon 4y ago

Hmmm I might be the odd one out but I really don’t want apple to be opening up payment options and nfc for payment to anyone on iPhone/watch.

isbvhodnvemrwvn 4y ago
Why?
jasonlotito 4y ago
Why are you opposed to consumer choice? Why do you feel it's fair that once you purchase something form Apple, you must go through Apple to make all future purchases?
- martimarkov 4y ago
  With the same validity I can ask why are you against security and ease of use? Ppl buy Apple products and KNOW AND ACCEPT the limitations when making that purchase. There are alternatives- get an android phone, there are plenty of brands there. I buy Apple products ESPECIALLY for the locked down OS. Why are you against my consumer choice? If any alternative store, payment, in app purchase is introduced - I’m deprived of my choice. And now there isn’t a closed OS I can use. There are actual reasons I want that OS. My parents had android devices and they got scammed at least once a month to share their details and their cards got stolen as they would download apps and those app would “guide” them how install apps from untrusted sources while promising “enabling free bank transactions access”. After moving to iOS none of that happened. I get the odd subscription I need to cancel but I do that from the phone - not another system.
  - withinboredom 4y ago
    When I got my first iPhone, such “limitations” weren’t really an issue. As a 30’s something dev, I understand them much more deeply than I did when I made the initial purchase. I now have a number of apps that I use on a daily basis, some of which I’ve paid 100’s of dollars to acquire over the years. Thus simply “getting Android,” is quite an expensive prospect and we haven’t even talked about the social implications.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

snalty 4y ago

I personally think this is probably the right decision, however I hope banks still offer both Apple Pay and their own option. Being able to switch cards from within the wallet app is a much better experience than having to open another banking app (and potentially having to sign in to that app), or having to change the default system payments app to use the card I want. Although I live in the UK so this probably won't affect me.

ginko 4y ago
Can you explain why you prefer paying with your phone rather than with physical cards? This seems to just have downsides to me (need to have phone charged, have to fiddle around to start payment app etc) when you can just wave a plastic card in front of a terminal and be done with it. Only potential upside I can think of would be that you don't need to bring a wallet, but you'd still need that for ID, driver's license etc. anyways.
- xxs 4y ago
  The cool part is paying w/ your watch, and you don't really need to start any app - it's NFC anyways. Yet, I don't have the payments with phone/watch enabled.
- apexalpha 4y ago
  On Android you just unlock your phone and hold it up to the terminal. No need to start an app first. Secondly, I prefer paying with my phone for the simple reason that I always bring my phone anyway, so now I could leave my cards at home if I wanted to.
- jermeh 4y ago
  > have to fiddle aroudn to start payment app This isn't really a thing with Apple Pay. You double tap the power button as you grab your phone, then Apple Pay is active (pending face id or unlock via watch), it's a very smooth process. On top of that, in my experience, tap to pay (via card or phone) is much quicker to process than swiping or inserting chip.
- chrisgd 4y ago

nodesocket 4y ago

How many times has the EU squeezed Apple for money because their policies and politics stifle innovation and don't reward success? The EU treats American tech companies like their own personal piggy bank.

Telluur 4y ago
Innovation? Contactless payment have been a thing for years in the EU. First on physical cards, then on android. Apple locking down NFC access for wallet apps is nothing more than a forced monopoly.
toper-centage 4y ago
Apple is the only stifling innovation. They own 30% of the smartphone market is the west, so the EU wants them to be regulated as a fair platform where competition can exist. The US should take a hint.

cwizou 4y ago

The reuters article is a little light on content but I found those remarks : https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/speech_22_2773 https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/speech... The complaint is about Apple not allowing 3rd party usage of their NFC chip for other wallets (or anything else for that matter. From my understanding, the access is very limited) : Quoting : As a result, users of Apple devices can only pay with the ‘tap and go' function using Apple Pay and not with other wallets. This is because competing wallet developpers need access to the NFC on Apple devices to reach Apple users. Interestingly they also say that the Digital Market Acts will regulate this : When it enters into the force, the Digital Markets Act will have a direct effect on digital payments. It will require companies designated as gatekeepers to ensure effective interoperability with hardware and software features they use themselves in their ecosystems. This includes access to NFC for mobile payments. (IANAL but I find it interesting that they mention specific upcoming regulation tailored to curtail this, while still sending to Apple what they call a Statement of Objection) My vague (and possibly completely wrong) understanding from the situation here in France is that banks have to individually sign up for this, but on the backend the payment processing is piggybacking on Mastercard/Visa payment network, as from day one, Apple Pay worked on everything (with some caveats) that accepted NFC payment (which most terminals did). Transactions show up on your receipt as (in my case) a "classic" Mastercard transaction. This doesn't seem to be the way Apple Pay is implemented everywhere though (particularly in the US) ? This may be anecdotal but I had this discussion with a restaurant owner who mentioned that Apple Pay payments from some US customers didn't work (while in my case I've noticed eu/fr variant of Apple Pay worked pretty much everywhere). This could be some random other issue though. It would be interesting to know if in other EU countries this is always the same, piggybacking on your bank/card network. While I broadly understand the idea of opening up the NFC to 3rd party wallets, it's unclear to me how much of a practical idea that would be. As someone who uses Apple Pay daily, I don't see how having to open a 3rd party wallet app would be comparatively effective, it's all about the convenience of being able to triggering it instantly. A better solution would be mandating/allowing those 3rd party wallets not only NFC integration but having their payment options showing up in Apple's Wallet so they can be triggered the same way (double tap on your iPhone/Apple Watch, which already lets you pick between various Apple Pay cards/QR codes you may have entered).

traveler01 4y ago

So if I read this correctly they're finally getting fined for closing down NFC in iPhones to their own payment system? They're so slow, this is being an issue for years, and there's really no excuse for them to do this other than just protecting their monopoly. I just switched to an Android some months ago and I can't believe on behind is Apple in certain questions. Apple Pay is a pain compared to Google Pay, and some cards aren't even available on Apple Pay for no reason.

kmlx 4y ago
> Apple Pay is a pain compared to Google Pay interesting. can someone expand on this?
- d3ckard 4y ago
  Curious as well, since whatever you do not like about Apple Pay, it actually works very well (not a single issue I had).
- traveler01 4y ago
  This how Apple Pay works to make a physical payment (which is the main case of this thread): 1 - Click two times on the iPhone powerbutton 2 - Unlock the phone with the FaceID 3 - Take the phone and put it on top of the terminal ALSO, if you're already using your phone, you must press again the powerbutton two times, unlock Apple Pay with FaceID and then put the phone on top of the terminal. Google Pay (using a Galaxy S22...) 1 - Unlock the phone using the fingerprint reader 2 - Put it on top of the terminal If you're already using the phone just put it on top of a terminal and will pay your bill. Seems like a small issue, but considering that until a few weeks ago we were still using masks, I sometimes had to input my phone pin in front of everyone to access Apple Pay, even if I had the phone unlocked before getting to the pay terminal...
  - spzb 4y ago
    That's not the way it works on my iPhone (2020 SE). Move the phone over the payment terminal, it senses the NFC terminal, wakes up with my default payment card shown, I put my thumb on the sensor and payment is made.

barkerja 4y ago

I'm 100% for choice, and I support the EU's (and any other entity) efforts to change this, but I have a simple question for those here: When you pull out your device, and raise it to a POS terminal, what is the behavior that you expect and/or desire? For me personally, the behavior I desire is basically what happens today: the digital Wallet opens, and I choose which card I want to pay with (or do nothing and allow my default card to be used). If we want to flip this experience on its head, what are our options? A configuration for NFC/payments that controls this behavior? I'm simply trying to think of the cause and effect here. I am not a designer/UX person, simply just a dumb backend engineer, but I have a strong appreciation for good UX/design and absolutely know it when I see it. Curious to hear other's thoughts/opinions on this.

Kuinox 4y ago
I don't understand, what stop you from having a settings that allow you to select which app manage this ?
CharlesW 4y ago
Apple gets 0.15% of each purchase. I think this is as simple as: Other companies want that cut for themselves, and so are pushing the EU to allow for rent-seeking on Apple's financial platform.
- barkerja 4y ago
  I understand the /why/, but that wasn't my question. I'm curious what sort of behavior others hope/expect to see from their mobile device if things change towards a fragmented experience of apps being used for NFC payments and not our digital wallets. Are you suggesting that things basically remain the same, sans any fees?
  - CharlesW 4y ago
    > Are you suggesting that things basically remain the same, sans any fees? I'd sure hope so, unless the point for the companies lobbying for this is to kneecap the Apple Pay user experience. My feeling is that the UX itself isn't on trial since partner brands are front and center during Apple Pay transactions.