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I find it rather peculiar that tech folks think a plastic laptop is good build quality considering what we have from Apple and others. I wish more linux laptop

I find it rather peculiar that tech folks think a plastic laptop is good build quality considering what we have from Apple and others. I wish more linux laptops had the build quality and support of macbooks. This isn't a rant from an Apple fan, this is a rant from a laptop fan. ThinkPad's aren't good laptops despite what the guy with the pocket protector says. They are flimsy and feel cheap. They still have 20th century tech (eraser mouse, c'mon!). They are my grandfather's laptop.

everdrive 5y ago
Plastic is often a better material for laptops: - It's light - It's a bit more durable (or perhaps forgiving) when it comes to drops and dents - It's less expensive - If the laptop is built properly (not always a guarantee) it's just a sturdy
- Ar-Curunir 5y ago
  I’ve accidentally dropped both my Thinkpad and my MacBook Pro multiple times. Only my MacBook still boots
- gabereiser 5y ago
  Your first argument maybe is true but in the overall comparisons these laptops are heavier. Forgiving for drops and dents? Yeah, I’ll give you that. Carbon fiber is durable, not scratch proof though. Less expensive, yes, and you get those discounts bleeding into the components they use and the specs. Spec a high end Dev machine and compare with MacBook offering and it’s not even close. System76 is getting there, but they still use plastics too. Build quality, I completely agree with this. The problem is production quality isn’t guaranteed and I had more issues with PC laptops (Dell, HP, Lenovo) than I have with my MacBooks (2008, 2012, 2014, 2020 M1).
  - diffeomorphism 5y ago
    > Your first argument maybe is true but in the overall comparisons these laptops are heavier. No? X1 Nano: 907g Macbook Air 13: 1290g So just 70% percent of the weight. X1 Carbon: 1120g Macbook Pro 14: 1600g Again 70%. So they are much lighter, not just a little.
mackrevinack 5y ago
im guessing you live in a warm climate so. i don't and metal laptops are nearly always cold and sap the heat from your hands. im not sure i would like carrying all that extra weight around either. its not like i an going out on an expedition everyday where i need my laptop to hold up in all sorts of extreme situations. ive never even dropped or broken any of my "plastic" laptops and I've been using them for a few decades now
Markoff 5y ago
proper thinkpads have strenghtened construction with metal inside and plastic in general is better comfort wise regarding how hot it can get compared to better heat conducting metal They are in no way flimsy, you will much easier damage internal components of nany Mac over Thinkpad T series. but yes, they won't win any beauty contest - if you want reliable workhorse which is relatively ugly go for Thinkpad T series, if you want laptop for showing off go for Mac and other "brands"
- scrlk 5y ago
  Re: "proper" ThinkPads - Lenovo has made a mess of the model line up and I don't think it's easy for the non-ThinkPad aficionado figure it out (e.g. T series being the entry point in to the classic magnesium alloy roll cage).
  - Melatonic 5y ago
    Yea this is true I still love the old style keyboards - have they ever made a modern one with it? Last one (which I own and use still) that I know of is the T420
    - scrlk 5y ago
      There was a one off 25th anniversary model (T25), which was a T470 with a T420 keyboard. If you bought a T470 + T25 parts, you could FrankenPad it: https://www.xyte.ch/mods/t25-frankenpad/ https://www.xyte.ch/mods/t25-frankenpad/
      - Melatonic 5y ago
        As much as I do like the layout of that keyboard (which my T420 I believe has as well) I wonder if they made other layouts but still with the nicer switches of the T420 style? Will have to look into it. I know there are firms in China making custom mobos to fit into I believe the X201 or something similar to make them more modern
delta_p_delta_x 5y ago
> I wish more linux laptops had the build quality and support of macbooks. Have you considered Dell's XPS line[0] (or their business equivalent, the Precision 55XX/57XX line)? For a well-built notebook rivalling/exceeding the MacBook Pros, there's always the Precision 75XX/77XX line[1]. The new Precisions announced just a week ago with Intel Alder Lake CPUs[2] now have 16:10 displays, OLED, but still retain 'modern' features (some I consider regressions, like moving from dedicated trackpad buttons to a 'clickpad'). These are the notebooks with the new 'CAMM' memory modules. Dell always has options for RHEL/Ubuntu from the factory, and these notebooks also run other distributions (I have a Precision 7560 running Windows 10/Arch) very well. [0]: https://www.dell.com/en-us/work/shop/dell-laptops-and-notebooks/sf/xps-laptops#models-module https://www.dell.com/en-us/work/shop/dell-laptops-and-notebo... [1]: https://www.dell.com/en-us/work/shop/dell-laptops-and-notebooks/precision-7560-workstation/spd/precision-15-7560-laptop#features_section https://www.dell.com/en-us/work/shop/dell-laptops-and-notebo... [2]: https://www.windowscentral.com/dell-precision-7770-7670-announcement https://www.windowscentral.com/dell-precision-7770-7670-anno...
faeriechangling 5y ago
I make a distinction between "Plastic" and "Carbon Fibre Reinforced Polymer with a magnesium roll cage" that this laptop uses. We don't think an aluminium bike is better than a carbon fibre bike, so why is an aluminium laptop better than a carbon fibre laptop? I mean aluminium has some nice advantages like heat dissipation but CFRP allows for much lighter laptops. If anything I prefer CRFP because of the weight advantages and because it's more of a "sleeper" material when laptops are VERY tempting for thieves.
- ainiriand 5y ago
  Aluminum for me is a big no-no considering that I always get static discharge from them.
  - DoingIsLearning 5y ago
    I also distinctly remember the unnerving feeling of getting a tingling sensation on my wrists when having a macboook pro charging connecting to mains. I have only used them when clients specifically request it, but otherwise connect them to a workstation of my choice.
    - XorNot 5y ago
      Oh, I'm glad I'm not the only person who noticed this - several job laptops (macbooks) have definitely done this to me as well. It's subtle, like your wrist is sticky or being tapped rapidly, but the moment you yank the mains power out from the machine it goes away. Very unsettling (and escalates to painful at times).
      - lloeki 5y ago
        I used to experience this as well, on multiple MacBooks across years. It seems to have disappeared when I moved to a non-MagSafe USB-C charging generation of MacBooks (can't say for the latest ones though).
    - jbverschoor 5y ago
capableweb 5y ago
I exclusively used MacBooks from 2012 to 2018 or something like that, before switching to a Carbon X1, and could never switch back. None of the laptops from Apple I had could actually be used from my lap, which is where I want to use my laptop, because of the heat coming from the bottom of the MacBooks. So I'm quite happy with plastic/softer materials rather than whatever metal material Apple uses.
- Avamander 5y ago
  You're talking about Intel, of course laptops with those are unpleasant. You should try and compare a M1 Mac with your Carbon X1. Most likely yours runs much hotter.
  - capableweb 5y ago
    > You should try and compare a M1 Mac with your Carbon X1. Most likely yours runs much hotter. Unless I'm mistaken, the material of the M1 Macs seems to be the same as before? If the machine runs at 100% resource usage, does the underside of the body no longer get so hot you can't have it in your lap?
    - Avamander 5y ago
      > If the machine runs at 100% resource usage, does the underside of the body no longer get so hot you can't have it in your lap? Nope, never. That's not to say that if you run a Wii emulator for hours it doesn't get very warm, it's simply not intolerably hot. That's without fans. I'd expect a fan-equipped model to at most remain warm.
      - capableweb 5y ago
        > That's not to say that if you run a Wii emulator for hours it doesn't get very warm, it's simply not intolerably hot I've never run any emulators, I'm guessing they are about as resource-hungry as compiling things? Since laptops usually compile much slower than desktop computers, lots of time is spent compiling something when I use my laptops. > it's simply not intolerably hot I guess everyone's tolerance is different, but would you, while you run your Wii emulator, be able to have the laptop in your lap with just a thin garment between the laptop and your skin?
dehugger 5y ago
I think you just look for different features in a laptop then the Thinkpad crowd does. I love the track point, you get a mouse you never have to take your fingers off the keyboard to use. I've used a plethora of modern latoptops, and to this day my favorite laptop is an ancient x200. It has not trackpad, only a track point. I upgraded it to heck, with a new ips screen, ram, new wireless card, storage, etc. The keyboard is wonderful, the screen looks great, The foot print of the laptop is quite small. I only wish I could have that laptop with a modern processor, as that's where it's fallen behind. I've never enjoyed MacBook as much as that thing. I'm definitely not a granpa either.
- inawarminister 5y ago
  Have you heard about the X210 project? Some enthusiasist in China modded a motherboard to replace X200/X201 with modern chipset and ability to run 4K screen: https://liliputing.com/2018/03/x210-mod-turns-classic-lenovo-thinkpad-x201-into-a-modern-pc.html https://liliputing.com/2018/03/x210-mod-turns-classic-lenovo... (It was updated to use 10th gen Intel in 2019, I don't know if it runs the newest ones now though. Would really love if someone make a Ryzen part for it) But it's, of course, a mod rather than a finished product, so...
scrlk 5y ago
I will never understand the fetishisation of metal as a "premium" feeling material - if anything, it's impractical for a laptop. (conducts heat so can be uncomfortable to use on your lap if the thermal solution is poorly designed; dents/bends when dropped; probably harder for RF/antenna design...) It's the same reason why phones turned in to "premium" glass and metal sandwiches that people immediately slap in to a cheap plastic case because the "premium" design is simply too thin and slippery to use. Samsung was rightly nailed in the 2010s for producing horrible plastic phones, but Nokia's use of quality polycarbonate in their Lumias were ignored.
- jillesvangurp 5y ago
  I worked for Nokia. The Lumias had great hardware. And even Windows Phone wasn't that bad. If they'd bothered doubling down on Meego just when Google was still struggling with making Android usable, fast, and not an enormous mess, they would have had a chance. Instead they dumped it in favor of Symbian and later Windows Phone. MS bought the remains of Nokia, mismanaged it, and then cancelled the whole thing.
  - doctor_lollipop 5y ago
    I'm still using my N9, great little phone...
- skocznymroczny 5y ago
  > It's the same reason why phones turned in to "premium" glass and metal sandwiches that people immediately slap in to a cheap plastic case because the "premium" design is simply too thin and slippery to use. People slap phones in to cheap plastic case to prevent scratches, or to make phones balanced in case of a camera sticking out of the back.
- avidphantasm 5y ago
  Plastic is made from oil, and has limited recyclability (the polymers degrade so at best you only down cycle). Aluminum is one of the most abundant materials in the earth’s crust, and once refined is basically infinitely recyclable (or so the story goes). Aluminum is also reasonable light and strong, with good thermal properties (if your laptop chassis gets too hot, it has other design issues at this point IMO).
ankurdhama 5y ago
Why do you need such a build quality? Do you toss around your laptops? Do you keep dropping your laptop? My question is what is the use of such a build quality (apart from the very subjective - "it feels good")
- faeriechangling 5y ago
  I absolutely do those things all the time as somebody who is naturally clumsy and a heavy mobility user. A laptop that can survive some light abuse, which both MacBooks and Thinkpad's can is an absolute requirement for me. I can't tell you how many times in my life I've seen a laptop come crashing to the ground. For somebody like me MagSafe is an actual competitive advantage because of the multiple laptop charging ports I've destroyed by tripping over the cord accidentally. I am not alone.
  - adhesive_wombat 5y ago
    I got a USB-C magnetic adapter/interposer from eBay for my laptop. It's pretty handy, and it means I can still unplug the USB-C supply from the adapter and charge my phone if I need to. And I also like the right angle nature of the thing because of my my desk works.
- Klonoar 5y ago
  Why would you not care about build quality? You only live once, there's no sense in owning something subpar.
- jen20 5y ago
  > Do you toss around your laptops? Yes. > Do you keep dropping your laptop? Yes. > My question is what is the use of such a build quality Travel. As a former on-the-road consultant my laptops have taken all kinds of beatings - spills, inconsiderate recliners, drops etc. A (small) part of my preference for Apple machines is that they can be replaced with something basically identical almost anywhere in the world almost immediately by visiting either a first or third party store when something bad happens. Even commercial warranties with on-site support don’t get that good.
Ourgon 5y ago
> I wish more linux laptops had the build quality and support of macbooks I'm glad my "Linux laptops" are very much not like those macbooks with their glue and solder and "no user-serviceable parts inside (and we really mean it)" > This isn't a rant from an Apple fan, this is a rant from a laptop fan. ThinkPad's aren't good laptops despite what the guy with the pocket protector says. They are flimsy and feel cheap. They still have 20th century tech (eraser mouse, c'mon!). They are my grandfather's laptop. The good thing with those machines is that you'll be able to keep on using your grandfather's laptop while those whose grandfathers opted for macbooks are left wanting. I'm using a T42p from 2005, apart from putting in an SSD I have not changed the thing. It was, and still is, a perfectly useable tool.
- OJFord 5y ago
  Funnily enough the Framework laptop is nothing like 'glue and solder' (it's designed for repair and upgrade, with extremely well thought out captive screws and magnets) but does have I would say 'the build quality and support of Apple laptops'. Support even better in a way, since they'll just ship you a replacement part rather than charge you through the nose for 'Framework Care' only to tell you it's old and needs replacing, can trade in if you want or send it off for weeks to have a 'refurbished' (not new) part fitted.
sascha_sl 5y ago
I switched from a Legion 5 (plastic housing) to a Legion 7 (same design, but aluminum) and the only noticable difference is that the plastic is much better at keeping ambient temperature. When off, the 7 feels noticably colder and when on, it feels hotter.
pmontra 5y ago
I'm writing this on a plastic laptop that I've been using as my only machine since 2014. Anecdotally its build should be that bad if it's still good to let me pay my bills. Of course it's not in the $300-400 range and its upgradeability made the difference. I would have replaced it a couple of times if I couldn't have added extra RAM and swapped the HDD and DVD for 2 SSDs or replaced the keyboard every time my fingers ended up wearing it. That would have been a waste of money and that's more build quality than plastic vs metal.
- cassepipe 5y ago
  Same, I bought mine for 600 euros in 2014, still running fine with additional 4GB and a SSB but I had to drill the plastic chassis and put three small bolts to keep the hinge and the chassis together. Just like the previous one. I am planning keep it for another ten years but still if I ever buy another ruggedness of the chassis will be absolute priority.
unmole 5y ago
What I find peculiar is the fetishization of metal for laptops and phones. I hate how a cold slab of metal feels in my hand. I hate how the aluminium framed laptops radiate heat and make it impossible to actually use them on my lap.
- bengale 5y ago
  This isn't really an issue with M1 Macbooks now. But I did used to hate how hot my Intel Macbook got.
diffeomorphism 5y ago
Just for comparison consider fishing rods: - cheap: plastic - decent: aluminium - better: magnesium, carbon,... > they feel cheap You mean they don't feel heavy. Some people confuse that for cheap. Similarly macs look like good engineering, but ...
- oldgradstudent 5y ago
  > You mean they don't feel heavy. No. The 2011 MacBook Air was light but rigid. It is still used by my parents 11 years later. The hinge is still perfect.
  - diffeomorphism 5y ago
    > but rigid. Again feels rigid, but .... You can actually step on a thinkpad, but just google "macbook air bend". The MacBook Air is still a great laptop, but if you think it is more rigid than the competition, no it just might feel that way.
jgaa 5y ago
What we have from Apple laptops, when it comes to the ThinkPad keyboard, is like comparing stone tablets with a 1980 IBM electric type writer ;)
- jen20 5y ago
  It’s pretty unclear to me which is supposed to be which in this comparison after the ThinkPad switch to mushy chiclets in the early 2010s (limited run anniversary edition excepted).
  - jgaa 5y ago
    They used to be better, that is true. But any of my thinkpads have way better keyboards than any of my macbooks. I keep a X1 just as a typewriter.
  - ajford 5y ago
    The Thinkpad chiclets suck compared to the scissor switches of the earlier models, but compared to the soft putty that is Mac keyboards, they're still a winner. When I had to use a Macbook for work a few years back, I was unable to use the keyboard for more than 15-20 minutes without it flaring my RSI. That's compared to about an hour or so I can get on my Thinkpad.
wakeupcall 5y ago
CF reinforced fiber is not cheap plastic by any margin. I've owned alu-slab macbooks (personal) and company-owned thinkpads for a long time. If you bump the macbook, you get a permanent ding. Nothing happens on the fiber for comparable force (unless you literally crack it). If you flex the notebook, the alu can be permanently deformed. The "cheapo plastic" will easily take a ton of torsional deformation without complaining. It's a very functional chassis in my eyes. And I love the boring look honestly. I'm kind of disappointed that recent models switched to a more grey-bluish look.
avl999 5y ago
Thinkpads work. They don't make user hostile choices like zero-upgradability and zero-repairablity, the touchbar, replacing the esc key with the touch bar 'key' (only to roll it back) like the the macbooks. They also don't make confusing usability decisions like the giant ass trackpad that routinely registers false positives as you type. I recently got an old refurbished Thinkpad T430 for casual use when I am not near my desktop and installed Debian + LXDE on it. T430s are models from 10 years ago and is more enjoyable to work on than the 2019 MacBook Pro provided by my employer that I have to use for work. The only way I can make the MacBook tolerable is by using it in clamshell mode connected to monitors + physical keyboard/mouse so I don't have to interact with the actual hardware. It takes off like a rocket engine and warms my side desk pretty well (not to mention physically hot to touch, can't even imagine using it on my "lap"), docker is crap on it, not to mention the cmd-ctrl nonsense in addition to the things mentioned earlier. I have already dropped my Thinkpad a couple of times in pretty bad falls as it has survived whereas I don't have the same level of confidence in the MacBook.
- PetitPrince 5y ago
  > They don't make user hostile choice like [...] the touch bar This is false. This monstrosity first appeared on the X1 Carbon 2nd gen (along with the loss of our beloved dedicated trackpoint buttons), and the backlash was so big that they reinstated all the buttons for the next generation.
  - gabereiser 5y ago
    Correct. I would lump ‘erratic trackpad clicking’ to its list of hostile user behaviors. The hardware inside the laptop on the board is nice. It’s the peripherals and body that make me feel like I’m working for IBM in 1996. Small changes in the design won’t make up for an outdated design. Also, outside of SDD or RAM, what else are you upgrading? Does it even need to have that capability considering how often you do? Would you rather have better parts that won’t fail so easily in a slimmer, sleeker, design than one that sacrifices weight and size to allow you to maybe have the choice? I like right to repair. I like being able to upgrade something. The frequency of which I upgrade my ram and sdd is about as frequently as I’ll need a new motherboard anyway as my board is outdated 4x cycles.
shasts 5y ago
Live in a cold country. Hesitant to touch an aluminium laptop. Static electricity and cold metal.
spaniard89277 5y ago
"Eraser mouse" cmon? That's one of the reasons why I (and as I've seen many others) prefer thinkpads. Trackpoint, good keyboard, good linux compatibility, upgradeable. Despide some Lenovo BS plays on firmware etc a thinkpad is still, in the age of making everything fancy looks over functionality, a thinkpad. A reliable product. I've been trying to find a substitute for years. I can't find one. Macbooks are (generally) good products, but they don't have trackpoints, I don't like their keyboards, linux compatibility is not where I like it to be, and definitely not upgradeable.
uxcolumbo 5y ago
I've been a Thinkpad user for the last 15 years. The body is extremely sturdy along with the hinges. It's not plastic - it's magnesium alloy. They are not flimsy or cheap. Have you ever used a trackpoint? It's extremely ergonomic and much better than a trackpad. It requires a bit of time to get used to it - but it's totally worth the time investment. And please don't make comments like 'Grandfather's laptop'. Just because something is old doesn't mean it's not good. Look up Richard Sapper - the person who designed the IBM Thinkpad - a lot of brilliant design thinking went into this. If something is highly functional, durable and can be easily repaired - that's beautiful. Aesthetically the Thinkpads are beautiful as well - an understated beauty vs the 'look at me, look at me - I'm shiny and thin'.
- hackyhacky 5y ago
  TrackPoints are a fantastic feature and are one of the most important criteria keeping me on ThinkPads. The casual dismissal of TrackPoints in the grandparent comment shows that the author has never tried one.
  - CharlesW 5y ago
    > The casual dismissal of TrackPoints in the grandparent comment shows that the author has never tried one. They're a great and innovative "backup" pointing device when one doesn't have access to a mouse or touchpad. They really don't compare to either of those more expressive and efficient options, though.
  - redundantly 5y ago
    > The casual dismissal of TrackPoints in the grandparent comment shows that the author has never tried one. I've tried to use track points. A dozen or so times. Recently I got a new thinkpad from work and gave it another go, same result. I just don't like it. Granted, the trackpad on my thinkpad is also garbage. I prefer my external trackball mouse. Trackpoint fanatics don't seem to understand what works for them doesn't necessarily work for everyone. I find myself rolling my eyes a lot in threads like this.
    - 5y ago
RNAlfons 5y ago
Are you even aware that most of the people on this planet either can't afford Apple or just don't want to throw away so much money for fancy design quirks?
abledon 5y ago
prediction: 2025 will be the start of significant visible market adoption of "Asahi Linux" on Mac.
jeffbee 5y ago
Dropping a macbook on its stupid metal corner will total it. No thanks.
jason0597 5y ago
If you've ever taken apart a ThinkPad, you would notice that inside is a metal frame to support the entire laptop body. It's not plastic. Plus, this ThinkPad (and the newer ThinkPads in general) have a metal exterior
- gabereiser 5y ago
  All plastic laptop bodies have a metal frame which tells you how much they have faith in their body construction.
  - mackrevinack 5y ago
    i wasn't sure if you were trolling with your original comment but now i am
  - IE6 5y ago
    I get that you don't like thinkpads but you don't really seem like you understand how they are built or why they are perceived as durable.
  - jason0597 5y ago
    By that logic, civil engineers show how little faith they have in their buildings by having a reinforced concrete support and glass/steel frames around them
    - gabereiser 5y ago
      Not the buildings, they have little faith in the structural strength of poured concrete which is why they use rebar. It increases the strength to tolerable levels so they can build what they want to build. So yeah. Civil engineers know the properties of the materials they work with. So should hardware engineers. I'm aware they all have metal frames. I'm also aware that some aluminum laptops incorporate the frame into the lattice structure the motherboard sits on. I like when engineers find ways of using the materials to their strengths (aluminum laptop) vs having to strengthen (plastic) or support (carbon fiber).
howinteresting 5y ago
Aluminum sucks if you're on AC power that isn't properly grounded, as others have pointed out. I personally prefer laptops with carbon fiber for that reason.

everdrive 5y ago

Plastic is often a better material for laptops: - It's light - It's a bit more durable (or perhaps forgiving) when it comes to drops and dents - It's less expensive - If the laptop is built properly (not always a guarantee) it's just a sturdy

Ar-Curunir 5y ago
I’ve accidentally dropped both my Thinkpad and my MacBook Pro multiple times. Only my MacBook still boots
gabereiser 5y ago
Your first argument maybe is true but in the overall comparisons these laptops are heavier. Forgiving for drops and dents? Yeah, I’ll give you that. Carbon fiber is durable, not scratch proof though. Less expensive, yes, and you get those discounts bleeding into the components they use and the specs. Spec a high end Dev machine and compare with MacBook offering and it’s not even close. System76 is getting there, but they still use plastics too. Build quality, I completely agree with this. The problem is production quality isn’t guaranteed and I had more issues with PC laptops (Dell, HP, Lenovo) than I have with my MacBooks (2008, 2012, 2014, 2020 M1).
- diffeomorphism 5y ago
  > Your first argument maybe is true but in the overall comparisons these laptops are heavier. No? X1 Nano: 907g Macbook Air 13: 1290g So just 70% percent of the weight. X1 Carbon: 1120g Macbook Pro 14: 1600g Again 70%. So they are much lighter, not just a little.

mackrevinack 5y ago

im guessing you live in a warm climate so. i don't and metal laptops are nearly always cold and sap the heat from your hands. im not sure i would like carrying all that extra weight around either. its not like i an going out on an expedition everyday where i need my laptop to hold up in all sorts of extreme situations. ive never even dropped or broken any of my "plastic" laptops and I've been using them for a few decades now

Markoff 5y ago

proper thinkpads have strenghtened construction with metal inside and plastic in general is better comfort wise regarding how hot it can get compared to better heat conducting metal They are in no way flimsy, you will much easier damage internal components of nany Mac over Thinkpad T series. but yes, they won't win any beauty contest - if you want reliable workhorse which is relatively ugly go for Thinkpad T series, if you want laptop for showing off go for Mac and other "brands"

scrlk 5y ago
Re: "proper" ThinkPads - Lenovo has made a mess of the model line up and I don't think it's easy for the non-ThinkPad aficionado figure it out (e.g. T series being the entry point in to the classic magnesium alloy roll cage).
- Melatonic 5y ago
  Yea this is true I still love the old style keyboards - have they ever made a modern one with it? Last one (which I own and use still) that I know of is the T420
  - scrlk 5y ago
    There was a one off 25th anniversary model (T25), which was a T470 with a T420 keyboard. If you bought a T470 + T25 parts, you could FrankenPad it: https://www.xyte.ch/mods/t25-frankenpad/ https://www.xyte.ch/mods/t25-frankenpad/
    - Melatonic 5y ago
      As much as I do like the layout of that keyboard (which my T420 I believe has as well) I wonder if they made other layouts but still with the nicer switches of the T420 style? Will have to look into it. I know there are firms in China making custom mobos to fit into I believe the X201 or something similar to make them more modern

delta_p_delta_x 5y ago

> I wish more linux laptops had the build quality and support of macbooks. Have you considered Dell's XPS line[0] (or their business equivalent, the Precision 55XX/57XX line)? For a well-built notebook rivalling/exceeding the MacBook Pros, there's always the Precision 75XX/77XX line[1]. The new Precisions announced just a week ago with Intel Alder Lake CPUs[2] now have 16:10 displays, OLED, but still retain 'modern' features (some I consider regressions, like moving from dedicated trackpad buttons to a 'clickpad'). These are the notebooks with the new 'CAMM' memory modules. Dell always has options for RHEL/Ubuntu from the factory, and these notebooks also run other distributions (I have a Precision 7560 running Windows 10/Arch) very well. [0]: https://www.dell.com/en-us/work/shop/dell-laptops-and-notebooks/sf/xps-laptops#models-module https://www.dell.com/en-us/work/shop/dell-laptops-and-notebo... [1]: https://www.dell.com/en-us/work/shop/dell-laptops-and-notebooks/precision-7560-workstation/spd/precision-15-7560-laptop#features_section https://www.dell.com/en-us/work/shop/dell-laptops-and-notebo... [2]: https://www.windowscentral.com/dell-precision-7770-7670-announcement https://www.windowscentral.com/dell-precision-7770-7670-anno...

faeriechangling 5y ago

I make a distinction between "Plastic" and "Carbon Fibre Reinforced Polymer with a magnesium roll cage" that this laptop uses. We don't think an aluminium bike is better than a carbon fibre bike, so why is an aluminium laptop better than a carbon fibre laptop? I mean aluminium has some nice advantages like heat dissipation but CFRP allows for much lighter laptops. If anything I prefer CRFP because of the weight advantages and because it's more of a "sleeper" material when laptops are VERY tempting for thieves.

ainiriand 5y ago
Aluminum for me is a big no-no considering that I always get static discharge from them.
- DoingIsLearning 5y ago
  I also distinctly remember the unnerving feeling of getting a tingling sensation on my wrists when having a macboook pro charging connecting to mains. I have only used them when clients specifically request it, but otherwise connect them to a workstation of my choice.
  - XorNot 5y ago
    Oh, I'm glad I'm not the only person who noticed this - several job laptops (macbooks) have definitely done this to me as well. It's subtle, like your wrist is sticky or being tapped rapidly, but the moment you yank the mains power out from the machine it goes away. Very unsettling (and escalates to painful at times).
    - lloeki 5y ago
      I used to experience this as well, on multiple MacBooks across years. It seems to have disappeared when I moved to a non-MagSafe USB-C charging generation of MacBooks (can't say for the latest ones though).
  - jbverschoor 5y ago

capableweb 5y ago

I exclusively used MacBooks from 2012 to 2018 or something like that, before switching to a Carbon X1, and could never switch back. None of the laptops from Apple I had could actually be used from my lap, which is where I want to use my laptop, because of the heat coming from the bottom of the MacBooks. So I'm quite happy with plastic/softer materials rather than whatever metal material Apple uses.

Avamander 5y ago
You're talking about Intel, of course laptops with those are unpleasant. You should try and compare a M1 Mac with your Carbon X1. Most likely yours runs much hotter.
- capableweb 5y ago
  > You should try and compare a M1 Mac with your Carbon X1. Most likely yours runs much hotter. Unless I'm mistaken, the material of the M1 Macs seems to be the same as before? If the machine runs at 100% resource usage, does the underside of the body no longer get so hot you can't have it in your lap?
  - Avamander 5y ago
    > If the machine runs at 100% resource usage, does the underside of the body no longer get so hot you can't have it in your lap? Nope, never. That's not to say that if you run a Wii emulator for hours it doesn't get very warm, it's simply not intolerably hot. That's without fans. I'd expect a fan-equipped model to at most remain warm.
    - capableweb 5y ago
      > That's not to say that if you run a Wii emulator for hours it doesn't get very warm, it's simply not intolerably hot I've never run any emulators, I'm guessing they are about as resource-hungry as compiling things? Since laptops usually compile much slower than desktop computers, lots of time is spent compiling something when I use my laptops. > it's simply not intolerably hot I guess everyone's tolerance is different, but would you, while you run your Wii emulator, be able to have the laptop in your lap with just a thin garment between the laptop and your skin?

dehugger 5y ago

I think you just look for different features in a laptop then the Thinkpad crowd does. I love the track point, you get a mouse you never have to take your fingers off the keyboard to use. I've used a plethora of modern latoptops, and to this day my favorite laptop is an ancient x200. It has not trackpad, only a track point. I upgraded it to heck, with a new ips screen, ram, new wireless card, storage, etc. The keyboard is wonderful, the screen looks great, The foot print of the laptop is quite small. I only wish I could have that laptop with a modern processor, as that's where it's fallen behind. I've never enjoyed MacBook as much as that thing. I'm definitely not a granpa either.

inawarminister 5y ago
Have you heard about the X210 project? Some enthusiasist in China modded a motherboard to replace X200/X201 with modern chipset and ability to run 4K screen: https://liliputing.com/2018/03/x210-mod-turns-classic-lenovo-thinkpad-x201-into-a-modern-pc.html https://liliputing.com/2018/03/x210-mod-turns-classic-lenovo... (It was updated to use 10th gen Intel in 2019, I don't know if it runs the newest ones now though. Would really love if someone make a Ryzen part for it) But it's, of course, a mod rather than a finished product, so...

scrlk 5y ago

I will never understand the fetishisation of metal as a "premium" feeling material - if anything, it's impractical for a laptop. (conducts heat so can be uncomfortable to use on your lap if the thermal solution is poorly designed; dents/bends when dropped; probably harder for RF/antenna design...) It's the same reason why phones turned in to "premium" glass and metal sandwiches that people immediately slap in to a cheap plastic case because the "premium" design is simply too thin and slippery to use. Samsung was rightly nailed in the 2010s for producing horrible plastic phones, but Nokia's use of quality polycarbonate in their Lumias were ignored.

jillesvangurp 5y ago
I worked for Nokia. The Lumias had great hardware. And even Windows Phone wasn't that bad. If they'd bothered doubling down on Meego just when Google was still struggling with making Android usable, fast, and not an enormous mess, they would have had a chance. Instead they dumped it in favor of Symbian and later Windows Phone. MS bought the remains of Nokia, mismanaged it, and then cancelled the whole thing.
- doctor_lollipop 5y ago
  I'm still using my N9, great little phone...
skocznymroczny 5y ago
> It's the same reason why phones turned in to "premium" glass and metal sandwiches that people immediately slap in to a cheap plastic case because the "premium" design is simply too thin and slippery to use. People slap phones in to cheap plastic case to prevent scratches, or to make phones balanced in case of a camera sticking out of the back.
avidphantasm 5y ago
Plastic is made from oil, and has limited recyclability (the polymers degrade so at best you only down cycle). Aluminum is one of the most abundant materials in the earth’s crust, and once refined is basically infinitely recyclable (or so the story goes). Aluminum is also reasonable light and strong, with good thermal properties (if your laptop chassis gets too hot, it has other design issues at this point IMO).

ankurdhama 5y ago

Why do you need such a build quality? Do you toss around your laptops? Do you keep dropping your laptop? My question is what is the use of such a build quality (apart from the very subjective - "it feels good")

faeriechangling 5y ago
I absolutely do those things all the time as somebody who is naturally clumsy and a heavy mobility user. A laptop that can survive some light abuse, which both MacBooks and Thinkpad's can is an absolute requirement for me. I can't tell you how many times in my life I've seen a laptop come crashing to the ground. For somebody like me MagSafe is an actual competitive advantage because of the multiple laptop charging ports I've destroyed by tripping over the cord accidentally. I am not alone.
- adhesive_wombat 5y ago
  I got a USB-C magnetic adapter/interposer from eBay for my laptop. It's pretty handy, and it means I can still unplug the USB-C supply from the adapter and charge my phone if I need to. And I also like the right angle nature of the thing because of my my desk works.
Klonoar 5y ago
Why would you not care about build quality? You only live once, there's no sense in owning something subpar.
jen20 5y ago
> Do you toss around your laptops? Yes. > Do you keep dropping your laptop? Yes. > My question is what is the use of such a build quality Travel. As a former on-the-road consultant my laptops have taken all kinds of beatings - spills, inconsiderate recliners, drops etc. A (small) part of my preference for Apple machines is that they can be replaced with something basically identical almost anywhere in the world almost immediately by visiting either a first or third party store when something bad happens. Even commercial warranties with on-site support don’t get that good.

Ourgon 5y ago

> I wish more linux laptops had the build quality and support of macbooks I'm glad my "Linux laptops" are very much not like those macbooks with their glue and solder and "no user-serviceable parts inside (and we really mean it)" > This isn't a rant from an Apple fan, this is a rant from a laptop fan. ThinkPad's aren't good laptops despite what the guy with the pocket protector says. They are flimsy and feel cheap. They still have 20th century tech (eraser mouse, c'mon!). They are my grandfather's laptop. The good thing with those machines is that you'll be able to keep on using your grandfather's laptop while those whose grandfathers opted for macbooks are left wanting. I'm using a T42p from 2005, apart from putting in an SSD I have not changed the thing. It was, and still is, a perfectly useable tool.

OJFord 5y ago
Funnily enough the Framework laptop is nothing like 'glue and solder' (it's designed for repair and upgrade, with extremely well thought out captive screws and magnets) but does have I would say 'the build quality and support of Apple laptops'. Support even better in a way, since they'll just ship you a replacement part rather than charge you through the nose for 'Framework Care' only to tell you it's old and needs replacing, can trade in if you want or send it off for weeks to have a 'refurbished' (not new) part fitted.

sascha_sl 5y ago

I switched from a Legion 5 (plastic housing) to a Legion 7 (same design, but aluminum) and the only noticable difference is that the plastic is much better at keeping ambient temperature. When off, the 7 feels noticably colder and when on, it feels hotter.

pmontra 5y ago

I'm writing this on a plastic laptop that I've been using as my only machine since 2014. Anecdotally its build should be that bad if it's still good to let me pay my bills. Of course it's not in the $300-400 range and its upgradeability made the difference. I would have replaced it a couple of times if I couldn't have added extra RAM and swapped the HDD and DVD for 2 SSDs or replaced the keyboard every time my fingers ended up wearing it. That would have been a waste of money and that's more build quality than plastic vs metal.

cassepipe 5y ago
Same, I bought mine for 600 euros in 2014, still running fine with additional 4GB and a SSB but I had to drill the plastic chassis and put three small bolts to keep the hinge and the chassis together. Just like the previous one. I am planning keep it for another ten years but still if I ever buy another ruggedness of the chassis will be absolute priority.

unmole 5y ago

What I find peculiar is the fetishization of metal for laptops and phones. I hate how a cold slab of metal feels in my hand. I hate how the aluminium framed laptops radiate heat and make it impossible to actually use them on my lap.

bengale 5y ago
This isn't really an issue with M1 Macbooks now. But I did used to hate how hot my Intel Macbook got.

diffeomorphism 5y ago

Just for comparison consider fishing rods: - cheap: plastic - decent: aluminium - better: magnesium, carbon,... > they feel cheap You mean they don't feel heavy. Some people confuse that for cheap. Similarly macs look like good engineering, but ...

oldgradstudent 5y ago
> You mean they don't feel heavy. No. The 2011 MacBook Air was light but rigid. It is still used by my parents 11 years later. The hinge is still perfect.
- diffeomorphism 5y ago
  > but rigid. Again feels rigid, but .... You can actually step on a thinkpad, but just google "macbook air bend". The MacBook Air is still a great laptop, but if you think it is more rigid than the competition, no it just might feel that way.

jgaa 5y ago

What we have from Apple laptops, when it comes to the ThinkPad keyboard, is like comparing stone tablets with a 1980 IBM electric type writer ;)

jen20 5y ago
It’s pretty unclear to me which is supposed to be which in this comparison after the ThinkPad switch to mushy chiclets in the early 2010s (limited run anniversary edition excepted).
- jgaa 5y ago
  They used to be better, that is true. But any of my thinkpads have way better keyboards than any of my macbooks. I keep a X1 just as a typewriter.
- ajford 5y ago
  The Thinkpad chiclets suck compared to the scissor switches of the earlier models, but compared to the soft putty that is Mac keyboards, they're still a winner. When I had to use a Macbook for work a few years back, I was unable to use the keyboard for more than 15-20 minutes without it flaring my RSI. That's compared to about an hour or so I can get on my Thinkpad.

wakeupcall 5y ago

CF reinforced fiber is not cheap plastic by any margin. I've owned alu-slab macbooks (personal) and company-owned thinkpads for a long time. If you bump the macbook, you get a permanent ding. Nothing happens on the fiber for comparable force (unless you literally crack it). If you flex the notebook, the alu can be permanently deformed. The "cheapo plastic" will easily take a ton of torsional deformation without complaining. It's a very functional chassis in my eyes. And I love the boring look honestly. I'm kind of disappointed that recent models switched to a more grey-bluish look.

avl999 5y ago

Thinkpads work. They don't make user hostile choices like zero-upgradability and zero-repairablity, the touchbar, replacing the esc key with the touch bar 'key' (only to roll it back) like the the macbooks. They also don't make confusing usability decisions like the giant ass trackpad that routinely registers false positives as you type. I recently got an old refurbished Thinkpad T430 for casual use when I am not near my desktop and installed Debian + LXDE on it. T430s are models from 10 years ago and is more enjoyable to work on than the 2019 MacBook Pro provided by my employer that I have to use for work. The only way I can make the MacBook tolerable is by using it in clamshell mode connected to monitors + physical keyboard/mouse so I don't have to interact with the actual hardware. It takes off like a rocket engine and warms my side desk pretty well (not to mention physically hot to touch, can't even imagine using it on my "lap"), docker is crap on it, not to mention the cmd-ctrl nonsense in addition to the things mentioned earlier. I have already dropped my Thinkpad a couple of times in pretty bad falls as it has survived whereas I don't have the same level of confidence in the MacBook.

PetitPrince 5y ago
> They don't make user hostile choice like [...] the touch bar This is false. This monstrosity first appeared on the X1 Carbon 2nd gen (along with the loss of our beloved dedicated trackpoint buttons), and the backlash was so big that they reinstated all the buttons for the next generation.
- gabereiser 5y ago
  Correct. I would lump ‘erratic trackpad clicking’ to its list of hostile user behaviors. The hardware inside the laptop on the board is nice. It’s the peripherals and body that make me feel like I’m working for IBM in 1996. Small changes in the design won’t make up for an outdated design. Also, outside of SDD or RAM, what else are you upgrading? Does it even need to have that capability considering how often you do? Would you rather have better parts that won’t fail so easily in a slimmer, sleeker, design than one that sacrifices weight and size to allow you to maybe have the choice? I like right to repair. I like being able to upgrade something. The frequency of which I upgrade my ram and sdd is about as frequently as I’ll need a new motherboard anyway as my board is outdated 4x cycles.

shasts 5y ago

Live in a cold country. Hesitant to touch an aluminium laptop. Static electricity and cold metal.

spaniard89277 5y ago

"Eraser mouse" cmon? That's one of the reasons why I (and as I've seen many others) prefer thinkpads. Trackpoint, good keyboard, good linux compatibility, upgradeable. Despide some Lenovo BS plays on firmware etc a thinkpad is still, in the age of making everything fancy looks over functionality, a thinkpad. A reliable product. I've been trying to find a substitute for years. I can't find one. Macbooks are (generally) good products, but they don't have trackpoints, I don't like their keyboards, linux compatibility is not where I like it to be, and definitely not upgradeable.

uxcolumbo 5y ago

I've been a Thinkpad user for the last 15 years. The body is extremely sturdy along with the hinges. It's not plastic - it's magnesium alloy. They are not flimsy or cheap. Have you ever used a trackpoint? It's extremely ergonomic and much better than a trackpad. It requires a bit of time to get used to it - but it's totally worth the time investment. And please don't make comments like 'Grandfather's laptop'. Just because something is old doesn't mean it's not good. Look up Richard Sapper - the person who designed the IBM Thinkpad - a lot of brilliant design thinking went into this. If something is highly functional, durable and can be easily repaired - that's beautiful. Aesthetically the Thinkpads are beautiful as well - an understated beauty vs the 'look at me, look at me - I'm shiny and thin'.

hackyhacky 5y ago
TrackPoints are a fantastic feature and are one of the most important criteria keeping me on ThinkPads. The casual dismissal of TrackPoints in the grandparent comment shows that the author has never tried one.
- CharlesW 5y ago
  > The casual dismissal of TrackPoints in the grandparent comment shows that the author has never tried one. They're a great and innovative "backup" pointing device when one doesn't have access to a mouse or touchpad. They really don't compare to either of those more expressive and efficient options, though.
- redundantly 5y ago
  > The casual dismissal of TrackPoints in the grandparent comment shows that the author has never tried one. I've tried to use track points. A dozen or so times. Recently I got a new thinkpad from work and gave it another go, same result. I just don't like it. Granted, the trackpad on my thinkpad is also garbage. I prefer my external trackball mouse. Trackpoint fanatics don't seem to understand what works for them doesn't necessarily work for everyone. I find myself rolling my eyes a lot in threads like this.
  - 5y ago

RNAlfons 5y ago

Are you even aware that most of the people on this planet either can't afford Apple or just don't want to throw away so much money for fancy design quirks?

abledon 5y ago

prediction: 2025 will be the start of significant visible market adoption of "Asahi Linux" on Mac.

jeffbee 5y ago

Dropping a macbook on its stupid metal corner will total it. No thanks.

jason0597 5y ago

If you've ever taken apart a ThinkPad, you would notice that inside is a metal frame to support the entire laptop body. It's not plastic. Plus, this ThinkPad (and the newer ThinkPads in general) have a metal exterior

gabereiser 5y ago
All plastic laptop bodies have a metal frame which tells you how much they have faith in their body construction.
- mackrevinack 5y ago
  i wasn't sure if you were trolling with your original comment but now i am
- IE6 5y ago
  I get that you don't like thinkpads but you don't really seem like you understand how they are built or why they are perceived as durable.
- jason0597 5y ago
  By that logic, civil engineers show how little faith they have in their buildings by having a reinforced concrete support and glass/steel frames around them
  - gabereiser 5y ago
    Not the buildings, they have little faith in the structural strength of poured concrete which is why they use rebar. It increases the strength to tolerable levels so they can build what they want to build. So yeah. Civil engineers know the properties of the materials they work with. So should hardware engineers. I'm aware they all have metal frames. I'm also aware that some aluminum laptops incorporate the frame into the lattice structure the motherboard sits on. I like when engineers find ways of using the materials to their strengths (aluminum laptop) vs having to strengthen (plastic) or support (carbon fiber).

howinteresting 5y ago

Aluminum sucks if you're on AC power that isn't properly grounded, as others have pointed out. I personally prefer laptops with carbon fiber for that reason.