8 ms·

A related issue to restrictions regarding camping is the politics of zoning laws in America. As someone who works in Silicon Valley and can afford to rent an a

A related issue to restrictions regarding camping is the politics of zoning laws in America. As someone who works in Silicon Valley and can afford to rent an apartment but cannot afford to purchase even a condo in the area, for the past few years I've researched alternatives such as living in a mobile home and buying land and placing a tiny house on it. However, the zoning laws in many of the municipalities within a two-hour radius of Silicon Valley make it very difficult to do these things. In all the municipalities I researched, I'm not allowed to live in a mobile home on my own land unless I'm in the process of building a home on a permanent foundation. Homes on a permanent foundation must meet minimum size requirements, thus prohibiting tiny homes and thus requires spending more money for a larger place. Permits can cost many thousands of dollars, and that's assuming I could get the permits. Water is a serious issue; in some parts of Monterey County, there are long waitlists to connect to the water system, and in Cambria (a town in northern San Luis Obispo County) there's an ordinance barring any new construction until more water is available. A part of me understands the rationale for these restrictions. But another part of me feels discouraged that the real estate market in much of California is all sewn up with no way to "hack" it without figuring out how to make $200K+ per year or throwing in the towel and moving to some other part of the state or outside California. Thus I continue to rent my apartment while trying to find other ways to get into real estate.

SamoyedFurFluff 4y ago
Serious answer: get into your local politics. Start calling up your representatives and demanding this change. Find a representative for which this is a key issue for them and start campaigning to get them elected or re-elected. Organize with other renters; there’s more of you than there are land owners there I bet. The number of voters needed to radically alter the landscape of extremely local politics is probably maybe a dozen or less in this way, btw.
- zbrozek 4y ago
  I got 14 residents of Los Altos Hills to join me to ask for changes to local zoning law. The council completely ignored us. You have to be on the council, along with a like-minded majority. It'll be a full time job for all of you.
  - samatman 4y ago
    The bar is more accurately described as "controlling the selectorate", you need to be whomever is able to rally the votes to put people on or off the council. That person already exists, and has a lifetime's head start. Good luck.
- donthellbanme 4y ago
  Gavin Nuesome actually had good intentions with streamlining ADU's in California. It turns out only the wealthy are taking advantage of the gift though. In my county, I believe 6 guys took advantage of the streamlined process. It's still very expensive. They used building the ADU as an excuse to build a bigger house, and that variance is hard to get, but if you have money and kiss ass, you can get it. I believe almost all the 6 used an ADA unit to increase the size of their home. They all had to get variances from the town, and 5 got it. One homeowner refused to kiss the town council's ass, write begging letters to his neighbors, and attent countless meetings while paying for an architect, and a Builder's time. They are all asked a bunch of questions. The one that got me is "Are you going to rent the unit out to low income individuals. (Low income in my town is like "$90, 000. Yea--really. $110,00 if married.". All basically lied, and said yes they will rent it to a Nun. They wanted a bigger home, and the ADU will be used as----an Art studio, or for Lupe' the cheap help that will wipe them in later life? My point putting in an ADU is fine, and I'm glad Neusome streamlined the process. People aren't taking advantage of it besides the wealthy though. The people whom didn't need any help. I would rather see something different. 1. If a person (not a corporation, rich foreigner, etc.) of modest means buys a small piece of land they can put a trailer, tent, small cabin, etc. on the land. And of course live there. I'd even be ok with no foundations until you build properly, and no renting unless you offer it for free. I'd even be ok with time limits that are reviewed every ten years for free. So basically a guy would have to go in front of some official and sign a declaration that they still don't have the money to build a proper unit. 2. CA counties, and towns are going to be told to build more housing in the future if Neusome is still around. They only way I see it happening is if we start building huge blocks of housing, like I see being demolished in Ukraine. (I've seen pictures of Russia. It does look like everyone is in a reasonably priced apartment. I guess it's a leftover from evil Socialism. Personally, I'd be happy with 1. I just don't think the powers at be really want to help the very poor. Marin County, San Anselmo. This is basically the town I'm writing about. Newsome has a mansion here where Jenny wanders room to room trying to find something "important" in life to do. Be careful Gavin. She reminds me of an Amber Heard. I honestly like the guy. He was voted most fashionable in my high school.)
  - Fatnino 4y ago
- zo1 4y ago
  I disagree fully. This is not "Democracy". This is arbitrary little dictators pushing their little pet agenda forward (no matter how good in your example) over those that just want to be left alone. The same thing you're advocating is the same reason the landscape of regulation is currently such a mess.
  - refurb 4y ago
    This reminds me of the guy who got bullied by his HOA, so he got a group to run, won, and dissolved the HOA.
reactordev 4y ago
The real crime here is making six figures and not being able to afford to buy a 1-bedroom apartment. Capitalism.
- vehemenz 4y ago
  Anyone making six figures can live like a king almost anywhere in the US. Capitalism.
  - beaconstudios 4y ago
    Just not in the places where you can actually make six figures!
    - giraffe_lady 4y ago
      It may not have been the case even five years ago and you definitely won't make the same six figures, but that simple threshold is probably in reach in any mid-size american city for a software dev more than a year or two into their career.
    - tzs 4y ago
      I'm a bit confused by housing in San Francisco. The median household income in San Francisco is around $120k, which suggests that making six figures is quite sufficient for living in San Francisco. But the impression I often get on HN is that you've got people making well above that finding themselves barely able to afford a place to live in SF. I'm clearly missing something, but what?
      - beaconstudios 4y ago
        I think everybody is just stuck renting and can't get on the property ladder.
      - usrn 4y ago
        Half goes to taxes and half of what's left over goes to rent. After that you have to save up for a pretty large downpayment.
throw0101a 4y ago
While there's a lot of NIMBY about zoning higher density, is not the problem also (partly) that 'price' can't be used as a motivating factor for more efficient (people/area) land use? * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1978_California_Proposition_13 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1978_California_Proposition_13
donthellbanme 4y ago
In most counties in California you are free to buy land. After that, just expect to pay property taxes unless you have money to build exactly the home they sign off on. I once was ready to buy a reasonable small piece of land in Bolinas after graduating from college. I should have known the price was too good. When I called the seller he took pity on me when I told him I wanted to just use it to pitch a tent on until I saved more money. He said, "Son---you can't even put an blanket on "your" land and take a nap."
- toraway1234 4y ago
  Land of the free?
  - throwaway0a5e 4y ago
    The west coast is only really representative of the west coast.
- beamatronic 4y ago
  I haven’t tried this, but I am curious if they would allow you to build a garage or storage unit on the property. Is there anything they cannot legally block?
  - malandrew 4y ago
    I wonder also if there is an obligation to finish construction in a certain time frame. If not you could draw up grandiose plans with an architect and after you get the permit you just build part of it immediately and start living in that part and then take the next 20-30 years to build the rest, if ever.
    - yakak 4y ago
      You generally have to get a certificate of inspection when the work in a permit is complete and a number of things are technically illegal before then.
- 4y ago
hotpotamus 4y ago
My parents recently bought a plot of land in a mobile home development in order to house my uncle with mental health issues. They have the exact same requirements you mention above - no travel trailers as permanent housing and permanent housing must meet square footage requirements. In a place named $X Mobile Home Estates. And in supposedly low-tax, freedom-loving Texas; not California.
- s1artibartfast 4y ago
  Mobile home parks don't sell the land outright, but sell the rights to park a trailer on it. Are the regs from the park or the state
  - hotpotamus 4y ago
    I did not say they bought land in a mobile home park.
    - jddddd 4y ago
      > My parents recently bought a plot of land in a mobile home development Did you forget what you wrote?
      - hotpotamus 4y ago
        In fact I was quite careful with my words to use development because I did not feel that park described the situation. The plot is a quarter acre with it's own electrical and water connections that is in fact owned by my parents. I was somewhat circumspect, but I'll just use the actual name of the neighborhood - it is Canyon Lake Mobile Home Estates in Canyon Lake, TX. Up to a few years ago, it was a rural backwater on "the wrong side of the lake" and does not actually feature lake access or much chance of a view. For the last few years (predating the pandemic, but the pandemic seems like an accelerant) it has, like much of Texas, seen significant in-migration, probably exacerbated by its proximity to Austin. All that said, I still find it ridiculous that they don't allow people to live in travel trailers.
beamatronic 4y ago
There are still plenty of ways to “hack” it, but they are all unpleasant. Is your goal to accumulate cash/build your net worth?
yesenadam 4y ago
> unless I'm in the process of building a home on a permanent foundation. Would it possible to do that, but extremely slowly? What counts as being "in the process"? Just designing your home might take you many, many years...
- bitxbitxbitcoin 4y ago
  No. The rules account for that and generally you get permission to live in the temporary mobile home for x amount of months with a provision for an extension for another x amount of months. You don’t get the permission to put up the mobile home/tiny home until after your designs have been completed and approved.
em-bee 4y ago
i wonder if a hack like this would work: a large courtyard inside the house. so the actual inside living area is much less than what it looks like from the outside. the only question is if you can get away with not putting a roof over the courtyard or if you can find a very cheap, lightweight roof that you can move aside.

SamoyedFurFluff 4y ago

Serious answer: get into your local politics. Start calling up your representatives and demanding this change. Find a representative for which this is a key issue for them and start campaigning to get them elected or re-elected. Organize with other renters; there’s more of you than there are land owners there I bet. The number of voters needed to radically alter the landscape of extremely local politics is probably maybe a dozen or less in this way, btw.

zbrozek 4y ago
I got 14 residents of Los Altos Hills to join me to ask for changes to local zoning law. The council completely ignored us. You have to be on the council, along with a like-minded majority. It'll be a full time job for all of you.
- samatman 4y ago
  The bar is more accurately described as "controlling the selectorate", you need to be whomever is able to rally the votes to put people on or off the council. That person already exists, and has a lifetime's head start. Good luck.
donthellbanme 4y ago
Gavin Nuesome actually had good intentions with streamlining ADU's in California. It turns out only the wealthy are taking advantage of the gift though. In my county, I believe 6 guys took advantage of the streamlined process. It's still very expensive. They used building the ADU as an excuse to build a bigger house, and that variance is hard to get, but if you have money and kiss ass, you can get it. I believe almost all the 6 used an ADA unit to increase the size of their home. They all had to get variances from the town, and 5 got it. One homeowner refused to kiss the town council's ass, write begging letters to his neighbors, and attent countless meetings while paying for an architect, and a Builder's time. They are all asked a bunch of questions. The one that got me is "Are you going to rent the unit out to low income individuals. (Low income in my town is like "$90, 000. Yea--really. $110,00 if married.". All basically lied, and said yes they will rent it to a Nun. They wanted a bigger home, and the ADU will be used as----an Art studio, or for Lupe' the cheap help that will wipe them in later life? My point putting in an ADU is fine, and I'm glad Neusome streamlined the process. People aren't taking advantage of it besides the wealthy though. The people whom didn't need any help. I would rather see something different. 1. If a person (not a corporation, rich foreigner, etc.) of modest means buys a small piece of land they can put a trailer, tent, small cabin, etc. on the land. And of course live there. I'd even be ok with no foundations until you build properly, and no renting unless you offer it for free. I'd even be ok with time limits that are reviewed every ten years for free. So basically a guy would have to go in front of some official and sign a declaration that they still don't have the money to build a proper unit. 2. CA counties, and towns are going to be told to build more housing in the future if Neusome is still around. They only way I see it happening is if we start building huge blocks of housing, like I see being demolished in Ukraine. (I've seen pictures of Russia. It does look like everyone is in a reasonably priced apartment. I guess it's a leftover from evil Socialism. Personally, I'd be happy with 1. I just don't think the powers at be really want to help the very poor. Marin County, San Anselmo. This is basically the town I'm writing about. Newsome has a mansion here where Jenny wanders room to room trying to find something "important" in life to do. Be careful Gavin. She reminds me of an Amber Heard. I honestly like the guy. He was voted most fashionable in my high school.)
- Fatnino 4y ago
zo1 4y ago
I disagree fully. This is not "Democracy". This is arbitrary little dictators pushing their little pet agenda forward (no matter how good in your example) over those that just want to be left alone. The same thing you're advocating is the same reason the landscape of regulation is currently such a mess.
- refurb 4y ago
  This reminds me of the guy who got bullied by his HOA, so he got a group to run, won, and dissolved the HOA.

reactordev 4y ago

The real crime here is making six figures and not being able to afford to buy a 1-bedroom apartment. Capitalism.

vehemenz 4y ago
Anyone making six figures can live like a king almost anywhere in the US. Capitalism.
- beaconstudios 4y ago
  Just not in the places where you can actually make six figures!
  - giraffe_lady 4y ago
    It may not have been the case even five years ago and you definitely won't make the same six figures, but that simple threshold is probably in reach in any mid-size american city for a software dev more than a year or two into their career.
  - tzs 4y ago
    I'm a bit confused by housing in San Francisco. The median household income in San Francisco is around $120k, which suggests that making six figures is quite sufficient for living in San Francisco. But the impression I often get on HN is that you've got people making well above that finding themselves barely able to afford a place to live in SF. I'm clearly missing something, but what?
    - beaconstudios 4y ago
      I think everybody is just stuck renting and can't get on the property ladder.
    - usrn 4y ago
      Half goes to taxes and half of what's left over goes to rent. After that you have to save up for a pretty large downpayment.

throw0101a 4y ago

While there's a lot of NIMBY about zoning higher density, is not the problem also (partly) that 'price' can't be used as a motivating factor for more efficient (people/area) land use? * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1978_California_Proposition_13 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1978_California_Proposition_13

donthellbanme 4y ago

In most counties in California you are free to buy land. After that, just expect to pay property taxes unless you have money to build exactly the home they sign off on. I once was ready to buy a reasonable small piece of land in Bolinas after graduating from college. I should have known the price was too good. When I called the seller he took pity on me when I told him I wanted to just use it to pitch a tent on until I saved more money. He said, "Son---you can't even put an blanket on "your" land and take a nap."

toraway1234 4y ago
Land of the free?
- throwaway0a5e 4y ago
  The west coast is only really representative of the west coast.
beamatronic 4y ago
I haven’t tried this, but I am curious if they would allow you to build a garage or storage unit on the property. Is there anything they cannot legally block?
- malandrew 4y ago
  I wonder also if there is an obligation to finish construction in a certain time frame. If not you could draw up grandiose plans with an architect and after you get the permit you just build part of it immediately and start living in that part and then take the next 20-30 years to build the rest, if ever.
  - yakak 4y ago
    You generally have to get a certificate of inspection when the work in a permit is complete and a number of things are technically illegal before then.
4y ago

hotpotamus 4y ago

My parents recently bought a plot of land in a mobile home development in order to house my uncle with mental health issues. They have the exact same requirements you mention above - no travel trailers as permanent housing and permanent housing must meet square footage requirements. In a place named $X Mobile Home Estates. And in supposedly low-tax, freedom-loving Texas; not California.

s1artibartfast 4y ago
Mobile home parks don't sell the land outright, but sell the rights to park a trailer on it. Are the regs from the park or the state
- hotpotamus 4y ago
  I did not say they bought land in a mobile home park.
  - jddddd 4y ago
    > My parents recently bought a plot of land in a mobile home development Did you forget what you wrote?
    - hotpotamus 4y ago
      In fact I was quite careful with my words to use development because I did not feel that park described the situation. The plot is a quarter acre with it's own electrical and water connections that is in fact owned by my parents. I was somewhat circumspect, but I'll just use the actual name of the neighborhood - it is Canyon Lake Mobile Home Estates in Canyon Lake, TX. Up to a few years ago, it was a rural backwater on "the wrong side of the lake" and does not actually feature lake access or much chance of a view. For the last few years (predating the pandemic, but the pandemic seems like an accelerant) it has, like much of Texas, seen significant in-migration, probably exacerbated by its proximity to Austin. All that said, I still find it ridiculous that they don't allow people to live in travel trailers.

beamatronic 4y ago

There are still plenty of ways to “hack” it, but they are all unpleasant. Is your goal to accumulate cash/build your net worth?

yesenadam 4y ago

> unless I'm in the process of building a home on a permanent foundation. Would it possible to do that, but extremely slowly? What counts as being "in the process"? Just designing your home might take you many, many years...

bitxbitxbitcoin 4y ago
No. The rules account for that and generally you get permission to live in the temporary mobile home for x amount of months with a provision for an extension for another x amount of months. You don’t get the permission to put up the mobile home/tiny home until after your designs have been completed and approved.

em-bee 4y ago

i wonder if a hack like this would work: a large courtyard inside the house. so the actual inside living area is much less than what it looks like from the outside. the only question is if you can get away with not putting a roof over the courtyard or if you can find a very cheap, lightweight roof that you can move aside.