5 ms·

> Inside, an electric motor can deliver 350kW of power (470BHP) to reach top speeds of 200MPH (320 km/h). For reference, Formula 1 cars average speeds between 2

> Inside, an electric motor can deliver 350kW of power (470BHP) to reach top speeds of 200MPH (320 km/h). For reference, Formula 1 cars average speeds between 220 and 230MPH during a Grand Prix. There's either some typos here, or just bad writing. The speed record for Formula 1 looks to be 231.4 mph, so the E top speed looks to be pretty close. That's cool! I wonder if we'll see the top races turn into electric at some point.

kissiel 4y ago
As with all engineering there's a tradeoffs dance. The F1 one cars pull insane G's in the bends, and all that downforce requires a lot of power. I'd like to know what kind of g-forces those FE cars reach. I think the best way to compare the overall performance is to compare the average speed on the same track.
- jw14 4y ago
  I think Formula E is kind of useless. Racing competitions can be a good engine for innovation, but last I heard Formula E has all cars using a standard battery. Isn't the battery the biggest thing we want to improve on EVs? They hold the races in cities instead of "real" race tracks, which I guess is cool if that's your home town but as a (lukewarm) racing fan I would rather see tracks I know. I wonder if they also want to avoid comparisons with ICE race cars. The Gen 2 Formula E did 0-60 in 2.8s... which is achievable in some ICE street cars. Hopefully the Gen 3 is more impressive.
  - jwcooper 4y ago
    I'm not really sure Formula E is big enough yet to put a lot of resources into battery tech like Formula 1 can engine tech. I believe the biggest reason they are in cities now is that the battery capacity/tech just isn't there yet for something like Spa or COTA for the distance and speeds required for an interesting race. City courses allow for a design that offers a lot of regenerative braking. Another reason to host them in cities is that cities are great for fans. Lots of hotels, restaurants, people buy tickets, etc. Cities are likely more open to Formula E due to the quieter cars and lower pollution too. So, not useless, just maybe not interesting to you.
  - oleganza 4y ago
    For publicity reasons F1 and Indycar/CART virtually never race on the same tracks. Otherwise people would point fingers and say that US series are slower overall, or top speeds in F1 are not as jaw-dropping as in US. I'd bet FE has similar arrangement - no one wants obvious comparison with an obvious loser by some metric.
    - JshWright 4y ago
      Just this weekend Formula E held the Monaco ePrix, using the same layout F1 uses. As a comparison, the FE pole time was 1:29.839. Last year the F1 pole lap was 1:10.346.
      - oleganza 4y ago
        Monaco is special in a way that power does not matter there that much and even downforce is not so important, so comparing different cars over that track does not make much sense.
        JshWright 4y ago
        Just because it's not a typical circuit doesn't mean the comparison is useless. To your point though, Monaco is the best case scenario for Formula E when being compared to Formula 1.
      - pmontra 4y ago
        This is basically the same time as Formula 3, which has a pole position of 1:28.893 in 2021 https://formularegionaleubyalpine.com/corsa/monaco-2021/ https://formularegionaleubyalpine.com/corsa/monaco-2021/ (This is really Formula 3 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Formula_Regional_European_Championship https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Formula_Regional_European... )
        JshWright 4y ago
        Yeah, the current gen cars are (very) roughly equivalent to F3 cars in terms of overall performance. Hopefully the Gen3 cars can push closer to F2 (they're still going to be miles off F1)
  - thebigman433 4y ago
    Long term the goal probably includes custom batteries, but Im assuming now they arent included because they want to keep costs lower. Teams do get to design powertrain stuff though, which is why you see car manufacturers in it. Good way to get some advanced R&D, and brand awareness obviously.
  - tlb 4y ago
    In battery design, there's always an energy - safety trade-off. The proper role of racing regulations is to prevent a race to the bottom in safety. So I'm in favor of standardizing the battery.
    - Scoundreller 4y ago
      If I've gathered anything from "innovation" in F1/FE, it's because of heavy-handed regulations forcing the teams to innovate. Just enrol bankrupting fines/disqualification for battery fires/injuries/death (if they don't already) and we'll see innovation there that can trickle into mainstream.
JshWright 4y ago
Formula E holds exclusive rights to single seat, open wheel electric car racing for quite a while (a couple decades).
- lukasb 4y ago
  How?
  - JshWright 4y ago
    By signing a contract with the FIA, the international organizing body for motor racing.
    - rascul 4y ago
      Formula E hasn't existed for decades. I would be interested in knowing more about this contract which prevents organizations unaffiliated with FIA (there aren't many, though) from having single seat electric racing.
      - JshWright 4y ago
        I didn't say they have held it for decades, I'm saying they own the exclusive rights for the next couple decades (I think it was a 25 year exclusivity period, which they are now ~7 years into). There's nothing stopping an unaffiliated race series from starting up, but good luck attracting any top tier drivers.
        rascul 4y ago
        > I didn't say they have held it for decades, I'm saying they own the exclusive rights for the next couple decades (I think it was a 25 year exclusivity period, which they are now ~7 years into). I appear to have misunderstood. Sorry about that. > There's nothing stopping an unaffiliated race series from starting up, but good luck attracting any top tier drivers. I pretty much agree with that.
      - 4y ago
napoleon_thepig 4y ago
The problem with this comparison is that F1 cars have a lot more downforce (and therefore drag) than FE cars, which means that F1 cars have a relatively low top speed. Add to this the fact that race distance is a lot shorter in FE and that they race in street circuits where time with full throttle is low and brake regen is high and suddenly Formula e is not very impressive.
- Scene_Cast2 4y ago
  My take is that what makes a sport exciting for spectators is different from what makes a sport exciting for the participants, which is also different from an exciting sports spec sheet.
  - napoleon_thepig 4y ago
    I agree and I think that FE is a well designed entertainment product, considering the technology and budget limitations they have.
sschueller 4y ago
I miss the old days when we had 1000+ HP monsters driven with one hand on the wheel the other on the shifter through the crazy tight turns at Monaco. Yes it was insane and dangerous but it was incredible. https://youtu.be/auXfAHHNSFo https://youtu.be/auXfAHHNSFo
- homero 4y ago
  Those lines must be very confusing since our brains have been trained to stay in them
  - jachee 4y ago
    Nah. I race on iRacing, and whenever we go to a street circuit, you just ignore the on-pavement markings, and run the optimal line. Once you’ve gotten used to the general layout, you watch for the racing-specific markings (the red/white “piano” curbing mostly) and ignore the rest. It’s incredibly fun in VR.
  - Melting_Harps 4y ago
    > Those lines must be very confusing since our brains have been trained to stay in them It isn't many of us ran canyons as a lead up to track days to dial in our suspension or engine maps ahead of time attacks, and just as another poster mentioned: you ignore it entirely when you're in the zone. You're looking at your own lines, and making your own braking points which often require you go wide (on to oncoming traffic) to make an apex in a high gear and have a higher exit speed etc... In short, normal day-driving has almost no bearing on how you drive in anger in the canyons or the track. I drive like an old man on the street and seldom speed, but once the helmet goes on I'm a full contact driver and I will block pass and push you wide off the track to make an apex on the track without a second thought. I was getting too aggressive at the K1 racetrack on my bday one year, I had just assumed people had done track days before and the marshals eventually let me run alone on the track to set a best flying lap because I was forcing people into dangerous situations, which to me is a part of racing: forcing people into mistakes is a critical part of race-craft. And if you go over your limit and you crash those are just racing incidents at the end of the day. I think I held a Top 10 lap record for most of that year at that location. As for reminiscing about F1 I think the hybrid era has yielded the most monotonous era on F1 history; which is saying a lot where 5 on track overtakes was considered an exciting race before that. Mercedes/HAM domination is about as compelling as the Redbull/Vettel era but with way more boring engines (they had V8s back then). I was in Maranello the last season right before the v6 hybrid era and I could hear them testing the V6s F1 engines in the factory and then heard it on the track Fiorano. They sounded pathetic to even the street version V8s and I knew it was an end of an era. Luckily, I got to see the LaFerrari prototype with its crazy hybrid-V8 get tested out on the canyons up Torre Maina which was a remarkable experience. They always say that when Ferrari sucks in F1 is when their Strada division makes it's best cars. Either way, I think the Senna/Prost days in manual Turbo V6s was cool but way over valued, to me the pinnacle will always be the V10 era. Seeing that BMW V10 in the Williams screaming at near 20K RPM was insanity [0]! I know the V8s and even the V10s are faster around a track, but these engines were over a 1000HP in qualy trim, and the sound alone was what made the racing back then. 0: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gT36kC2pwAc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gT36kC2pwAc
nigerian1981 4y ago
Maybe not soon, but I expect Formula One will merge with Formula E in the not too distant future

kissiel 4y ago

As with all engineering there's a tradeoffs dance. The F1 one cars pull insane G's in the bends, and all that downforce requires a lot of power. I'd like to know what kind of g-forces those FE cars reach. I think the best way to compare the overall performance is to compare the average speed on the same track.

jw14 4y ago
I think Formula E is kind of useless. Racing competitions can be a good engine for innovation, but last I heard Formula E has all cars using a standard battery. Isn't the battery the biggest thing we want to improve on EVs? They hold the races in cities instead of "real" race tracks, which I guess is cool if that's your home town but as a (lukewarm) racing fan I would rather see tracks I know. I wonder if they also want to avoid comparisons with ICE race cars. The Gen 2 Formula E did 0-60 in 2.8s... which is achievable in some ICE street cars. Hopefully the Gen 3 is more impressive.
- jwcooper 4y ago
  I'm not really sure Formula E is big enough yet to put a lot of resources into battery tech like Formula 1 can engine tech. I believe the biggest reason they are in cities now is that the battery capacity/tech just isn't there yet for something like Spa or COTA for the distance and speeds required for an interesting race. City courses allow for a design that offers a lot of regenerative braking. Another reason to host them in cities is that cities are great for fans. Lots of hotels, restaurants, people buy tickets, etc. Cities are likely more open to Formula E due to the quieter cars and lower pollution too. So, not useless, just maybe not interesting to you.
- oleganza 4y ago
  For publicity reasons F1 and Indycar/CART virtually never race on the same tracks. Otherwise people would point fingers and say that US series are slower overall, or top speeds in F1 are not as jaw-dropping as in US. I'd bet FE has similar arrangement - no one wants obvious comparison with an obvious loser by some metric.
  - JshWright 4y ago
    Just this weekend Formula E held the Monaco ePrix, using the same layout F1 uses. As a comparison, the FE pole time was 1:29.839. Last year the F1 pole lap was 1:10.346.
    - oleganza 4y ago
      Monaco is special in a way that power does not matter there that much and even downforce is not so important, so comparing different cars over that track does not make much sense.
      - JshWright 4y ago
        Just because it's not a typical circuit doesn't mean the comparison is useless. To your point though, Monaco is the best case scenario for Formula E when being compared to Formula 1.
    - pmontra 4y ago
      This is basically the same time as Formula 3, which has a pole position of 1:28.893 in 2021 https://formularegionaleubyalpine.com/corsa/monaco-2021/ https://formularegionaleubyalpine.com/corsa/monaco-2021/ (This is really Formula 3 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Formula_Regional_European_Championship https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Formula_Regional_European... )
      - JshWright 4y ago
        Yeah, the current gen cars are (very) roughly equivalent to F3 cars in terms of overall performance. Hopefully the Gen3 cars can push closer to F2 (they're still going to be miles off F1)
- thebigman433 4y ago
  Long term the goal probably includes custom batteries, but Im assuming now they arent included because they want to keep costs lower. Teams do get to design powertrain stuff though, which is why you see car manufacturers in it. Good way to get some advanced R&D, and brand awareness obviously.
- tlb 4y ago
  In battery design, there's always an energy - safety trade-off. The proper role of racing regulations is to prevent a race to the bottom in safety. So I'm in favor of standardizing the battery.
  - Scoundreller 4y ago
    If I've gathered anything from "innovation" in F1/FE, it's because of heavy-handed regulations forcing the teams to innovate. Just enrol bankrupting fines/disqualification for battery fires/injuries/death (if they don't already) and we'll see innovation there that can trickle into mainstream.

JshWright 4y ago

Formula E holds exclusive rights to single seat, open wheel electric car racing for quite a while (a couple decades).

lukasb 4y ago
How?
- JshWright 4y ago
  By signing a contract with the FIA, the international organizing body for motor racing.
  - rascul 4y ago
    Formula E hasn't existed for decades. I would be interested in knowing more about this contract which prevents organizations unaffiliated with FIA (there aren't many, though) from having single seat electric racing.
    - JshWright 4y ago
      I didn't say they have held it for decades, I'm saying they own the exclusive rights for the next couple decades (I think it was a 25 year exclusivity period, which they are now ~7 years into). There's nothing stopping an unaffiliated race series from starting up, but good luck attracting any top tier drivers.
      - rascul 4y ago
        > I didn't say they have held it for decades, I'm saying they own the exclusive rights for the next couple decades (I think it was a 25 year exclusivity period, which they are now ~7 years into). I appear to have misunderstood. Sorry about that. > There's nothing stopping an unaffiliated race series from starting up, but good luck attracting any top tier drivers. I pretty much agree with that.
    - 4y ago

napoleon_thepig 4y ago

The problem with this comparison is that F1 cars have a lot more downforce (and therefore drag) than FE cars, which means that F1 cars have a relatively low top speed. Add to this the fact that race distance is a lot shorter in FE and that they race in street circuits where time with full throttle is low and brake regen is high and suddenly Formula e is not very impressive.

Scene_Cast2 4y ago
My take is that what makes a sport exciting for spectators is different from what makes a sport exciting for the participants, which is also different from an exciting sports spec sheet.
- napoleon_thepig 4y ago
  I agree and I think that FE is a well designed entertainment product, considering the technology and budget limitations they have.

sschueller 4y ago

I miss the old days when we had 1000+ HP monsters driven with one hand on the wheel the other on the shifter through the crazy tight turns at Monaco. Yes it was insane and dangerous but it was incredible. https://youtu.be/auXfAHHNSFo https://youtu.be/auXfAHHNSFo

homero 4y ago
Those lines must be very confusing since our brains have been trained to stay in them
- jachee 4y ago
  Nah. I race on iRacing, and whenever we go to a street circuit, you just ignore the on-pavement markings, and run the optimal line. Once you’ve gotten used to the general layout, you watch for the racing-specific markings (the red/white “piano” curbing mostly) and ignore the rest. It’s incredibly fun in VR.
- Melting_Harps 4y ago
  > Those lines must be very confusing since our brains have been trained to stay in them It isn't many of us ran canyons as a lead up to track days to dial in our suspension or engine maps ahead of time attacks, and just as another poster mentioned: you ignore it entirely when you're in the zone. You're looking at your own lines, and making your own braking points which often require you go wide (on to oncoming traffic) to make an apex in a high gear and have a higher exit speed etc... In short, normal day-driving has almost no bearing on how you drive in anger in the canyons or the track. I drive like an old man on the street and seldom speed, but once the helmet goes on I'm a full contact driver and I will block pass and push you wide off the track to make an apex on the track without a second thought. I was getting too aggressive at the K1 racetrack on my bday one year, I had just assumed people had done track days before and the marshals eventually let me run alone on the track to set a best flying lap because I was forcing people into dangerous situations, which to me is a part of racing: forcing people into mistakes is a critical part of race-craft. And if you go over your limit and you crash those are just racing incidents at the end of the day. I think I held a Top 10 lap record for most of that year at that location. As for reminiscing about F1 I think the hybrid era has yielded the most monotonous era on F1 history; which is saying a lot where 5 on track overtakes was considered an exciting race before that. Mercedes/HAM domination is about as compelling as the Redbull/Vettel era but with way more boring engines (they had V8s back then). I was in Maranello the last season right before the v6 hybrid era and I could hear them testing the V6s F1 engines in the factory and then heard it on the track Fiorano. They sounded pathetic to even the street version V8s and I knew it was an end of an era. Luckily, I got to see the LaFerrari prototype with its crazy hybrid-V8 get tested out on the canyons up Torre Maina which was a remarkable experience. They always say that when Ferrari sucks in F1 is when their Strada division makes it's best cars. Either way, I think the Senna/Prost days in manual Turbo V6s was cool but way over valued, to me the pinnacle will always be the V10 era. Seeing that BMW V10 in the Williams screaming at near 20K RPM was insanity [0]! I know the V8s and even the V10s are faster around a track, but these engines were over a 1000HP in qualy trim, and the sound alone was what made the racing back then. 0: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gT36kC2pwAc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gT36kC2pwAc

nigerian1981 4y ago

Maybe not soon, but I expect Formula One will merge with Formula E in the not too distant future