7 ms·

As soon as I heard the plane was "unresponsive" to controls I immediately though pilot error just because how unlikely a plane is to be actually unresponsive to

As soon as I heard the plane was "unresponsive" to controls I immediately though pilot error just because how unlikely a plane is to be actually unresponsive to controls. Edit: Wow - reading the report I see they got to a 24 degree pitch angle on go around? That seems high, I thought you topped out at 15 or so. This is Air France stuff all over again with the pitch up into a stall etc. I'd love to know how experienced the FO was. "Eventually a point is reached whereby any further increase in angle of attack does not produce an increase in lift, and this point is called the stalling, or critical, angle of attack. Each airfoil has a different critical angle of attack, but with typical general aviation airfoils it is roughly 16 to 20 degrees. " Pitch and AoA are different, but during a landing / go around you are in a low speed regime and it just seems like pitching to nearly 30 degrees nose up is excessive. Is that Air France's standard go around vs 10-15? The true story might be that the captain saved this plane with his nose down inputs.

ineedasername 4y ago
>The true story might be that the captain saved this plane with his nose down inputs. Or the AoA was a product of the other pilot over correcting from what they thought was unintended nose down behavior. Hard to say, clearly bad procedure either way though. It's why there's clear protocol regarding who is in control of the plane.
- tempnow987 4y ago
  The issue is that the REALITY was the plane was going very nose up at low speed. That is THE situation that gets you into a stall / spin situation. Close to the ground in the pattern most folks in the US are taught to be very careful about this. Ie, when you are low and slow, don't go for a big pitch up or a steep bank. There isn't time to recover. That said, I've got NO clue about 777's, so maybe a 25 degree pitch up on takeoff / go around is normal. Hard to imagine aerodynamically that working.
  - roelschroeven 4y ago
    > Close to the ground in the pattern most folks in the US are taught to be very careful about this. What makes you think it's taught differently outside of the US?
    - _abox 4y ago
      Can confirm in Europe. We don't even get taught much spin recovery, just spin avoidance, seeing that a spin can't be recovered from within final altitudes anyway
kurupt213 4y ago
I believe Air France does their flight training completely different from the US. Here we have a healthy civilian flying culture (this really applies to the americas in general). Lots of stick time with manual controls (vs fly by wire). The French get lots of simulator time and are taught flying is more of an exercise in supervising the flight computer.
- markdown 4y ago
  For now. The French are just ahead of the curve.
- Aperocky 4y ago
  > healthy civilian flying culture. I wonder if this is sustainable. The era of affordable general aviation aircraft is over, people are flying 50 year old planes because the new basic cessnas costs $400K each.
  - simulate-me 4y ago
    That doesn't seem like that much if split with 4 people over 15 years.
    - throwanem 4y ago
      If four people need fifteen years, or one person needs to be a successful forty- or fifty-year-old neurosurgeon, to afford owning and operating a Cessna 172 - what effect do you think that has on the commercial pilot training funnel?
      - simulate-me 4y ago
        They don't need 15 years because they can get financing and take ownership of the plane for a 20% down payment.
        ricardobeat 4y ago
nomel 4y ago
> Pitch and AoA are different Is pitch the angle of the wing, and AoA the angle of the wing relative to the fluid across the wing?
- jnwatson 4y ago
  Yes
  - roelschroeven 4y ago
    Pitch is the angle of the plane rather than that of the wing.
    - mauvehaus 4y ago
      If the angle of the plane and the wing aren't the same and fixed relative to each other, you're probably already in thoroughly deep shit. The only plane that ever went into production where the angle of the wing could be changed relative to the angle of the fuselage (other than on the way to the crash site) was the F-8 Crusader [0]. GGP post has it correct. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vought_F-8_Crusader https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vought_F-8_Crusader
      - roelschroeven 4y ago
        Except on stunt planes (and maybe fighter jets?) that are designed to fly upside-down a significant portion of the time, the wings are angled relative to the fuselage. Otherwise the whole plane needs to be in a nos-up attitude even for flying at a constant altitude, which would not be fuel-efficient because if the high drag. The difference between the pitch angle of the plane and that of the wings is indeed fixed in any normal aircraft.
throwawaylinux 4y ago
How would it be reaching such a high pitch angle with two opposite inputs on the controls? Doesn't that mean one of the pilots is still trying to increase pitch?! Also it seems crazy that a modern aircraft can have pilots silently fighting one another for controls without realizing it. If standard practice is to have only one operating the controls at any time, why not a switch that enforces input from only one set of controls?
- amluto 4y ago
  Or an alarm that says “hey, you’re fighting over the controls!”
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- rob74 4y ago
  I guess that's because the flying pilot might become incapacitated at any time (i.e. stroke, heart attack, ...), and then the other pilot has to take over as quickly as possible, and an additional switch that they have to locate and flip would need more time than just moving the controls?
- epse 4y ago
  In that specific plane, both control columns are physically connected. Moving one will move the other and controlling both will make you physically fight over the controls> There is a safety feature where if you put enough force on one control column, you can break this linkage. You then have independent control, but the left column will only control the left ailerons and the right column only the right aileron. I assume the second case happened on this flight, but I cannot be sure. There is no such switch or alarm because for Boeing planes, that's how they are built. The left column connects to the left wing, the right to the right, all via cables. In order for one column to control both, there have to be cables connecting them
  - nradov 4y ago
    You're thinking of older Boeing designs. The 777 is fly by wire.
ad404b8a372f2b9 4y ago
There is still something weird going on with the inputs though isn't there? How could the first officer be confused by the 7° bank angle even though he was the only one flying the descent?
iso1631 4y ago
I've blacklisted Air France ever since the Damascus incident and their financial decision to attempt to divert over a war zone to Jordan rather than fly to a nearby safe location in Cyprus or Israel, especially when the company overrode the flightplan (which was to divert to Larnaca) I'm willing to forgive the decision to not land in Beiruit on a flimsy pretext in the first place, but to not divert to Larnaca shows unforgivable decision making.
t0mas88 4y ago
It really differs per plane, jets pitch up higher than typical general aviation aircraft during rotation and go-around. The 737 for example will command 15 degrees pitch up on the flight director when going around. If you did that on a typical general aviation trainer aircraft you would stall. We teach for example 7 degrees on the DA42 which is a typical multi-engine trainer for future airline pilots. In a jet you'll pitch up to 15 degrees initially, reduce flaps (if landing flaps were selected, for example from 30 back to 15), then once climbing you'll retract the gear. At that point you're going to have to pitch up much more than 15 degrees if you don't want to overspeed. It all happens much faster with two big jet engines compared to an underpowered general aviation plane. Especially if the crew thought they had an emergency and went full power combined with a light fuel load, you would expect a serious pitch up to avoid overspeeding the flaps.
- tempnow987 4y ago
  Thank you! Extremely helpful. Yes, on a small GA going to +24 degrees on a go around really jumped out as high, especially if you were starting low and very slow (on landing not uncommon). But I have zero big twin knowledge. I wish they'd included a speed plot to go with the pitch plot. The plot does show what looks like full power. Given flight duration fuel would have been way down so plane would have been (relatively) lightish most likely.
- plonk 4y ago
  > At that point you're going to have to pitch up much more than 15 degrees if you don't want to overspeed. What's the risk of overspeeding? Can you actually reach speeds that are dangerous to the engines while climbing?
  - foxyv 4y ago
    The problem is that the mechanisms that hold the flaps in place can be damaged resulting in loss of control over the surface. Sometimes a flap on one side of the plane will be damaged and, when you go to retract the flap, the plane will start to roll. Also the flaps can be torn off the plane.
  - 4y ago
willyt 4y ago
Important also to remember that after the FO, who was pilot flying, first expressed surprise that something didn’t seem right, the period of confusion lasted only about ~45 seconds before the captain confirmed that he/she had taken command. Quite a long distance at about 130kts but not a long time in human problem solving terms.

ineedasername 4y ago

>The true story might be that the captain saved this plane with his nose down inputs. Or the AoA was a product of the other pilot over correcting from what they thought was unintended nose down behavior. Hard to say, clearly bad procedure either way though. It's why there's clear protocol regarding who is in control of the plane.

tempnow987 4y ago
The issue is that the REALITY was the plane was going very nose up at low speed. That is THE situation that gets you into a stall / spin situation. Close to the ground in the pattern most folks in the US are taught to be very careful about this. Ie, when you are low and slow, don't go for a big pitch up or a steep bank. There isn't time to recover. That said, I've got NO clue about 777's, so maybe a 25 degree pitch up on takeoff / go around is normal. Hard to imagine aerodynamically that working.
- roelschroeven 4y ago
  > Close to the ground in the pattern most folks in the US are taught to be very careful about this. What makes you think it's taught differently outside of the US?
  - _abox 4y ago
    Can confirm in Europe. We don't even get taught much spin recovery, just spin avoidance, seeing that a spin can't be recovered from within final altitudes anyway

kurupt213 4y ago

I believe Air France does their flight training completely different from the US. Here we have a healthy civilian flying culture (this really applies to the americas in general). Lots of stick time with manual controls (vs fly by wire). The French get lots of simulator time and are taught flying is more of an exercise in supervising the flight computer.

markdown 4y ago
For now. The French are just ahead of the curve.
Aperocky 4y ago
> healthy civilian flying culture. I wonder if this is sustainable. The era of affordable general aviation aircraft is over, people are flying 50 year old planes because the new basic cessnas costs $400K each.
- simulate-me 4y ago
  That doesn't seem like that much if split with 4 people over 15 years.
  - throwanem 4y ago
    If four people need fifteen years, or one person needs to be a successful forty- or fifty-year-old neurosurgeon, to afford owning and operating a Cessna 172 - what effect do you think that has on the commercial pilot training funnel?
    - simulate-me 4y ago
      They don't need 15 years because they can get financing and take ownership of the plane for a 20% down payment.
      - ricardobeat 4y ago

nomel 4y ago

> Pitch and AoA are different Is pitch the angle of the wing, and AoA the angle of the wing relative to the fluid across the wing?

jnwatson 4y ago
Yes
- roelschroeven 4y ago
  Pitch is the angle of the plane rather than that of the wing.
  - mauvehaus 4y ago
    If the angle of the plane and the wing aren't the same and fixed relative to each other, you're probably already in thoroughly deep shit. The only plane that ever went into production where the angle of the wing could be changed relative to the angle of the fuselage (other than on the way to the crash site) was the F-8 Crusader [0]. GGP post has it correct. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vought_F-8_Crusader https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vought_F-8_Crusader
    - roelschroeven 4y ago
      Except on stunt planes (and maybe fighter jets?) that are designed to fly upside-down a significant portion of the time, the wings are angled relative to the fuselage. Otherwise the whole plane needs to be in a nos-up attitude even for flying at a constant altitude, which would not be fuel-efficient because if the high drag. The difference between the pitch angle of the plane and that of the wings is indeed fixed in any normal aircraft.

throwawaylinux 4y ago

How would it be reaching such a high pitch angle with two opposite inputs on the controls? Doesn't that mean one of the pilots is still trying to increase pitch?! Also it seems crazy that a modern aircraft can have pilots silently fighting one another for controls without realizing it. If standard practice is to have only one operating the controls at any time, why not a switch that enforces input from only one set of controls?

amluto 4y ago
Or an alarm that says “hey, you’re fighting over the controls!”
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
rob74 4y ago
I guess that's because the flying pilot might become incapacitated at any time (i.e. stroke, heart attack, ...), and then the other pilot has to take over as quickly as possible, and an additional switch that they have to locate and flip would need more time than just moving the controls?
epse 4y ago
In that specific plane, both control columns are physically connected. Moving one will move the other and controlling both will make you physically fight over the controls> There is a safety feature where if you put enough force on one control column, you can break this linkage. You then have independent control, but the left column will only control the left ailerons and the right column only the right aileron. I assume the second case happened on this flight, but I cannot be sure. There is no such switch or alarm because for Boeing planes, that's how they are built. The left column connects to the left wing, the right to the right, all via cables. In order for one column to control both, there have to be cables connecting them
- nradov 4y ago
  You're thinking of older Boeing designs. The 777 is fly by wire.

ad404b8a372f2b9 4y ago

There is still something weird going on with the inputs though isn't there? How could the first officer be confused by the 7° bank angle even though he was the only one flying the descent?

iso1631 4y ago

I've blacklisted Air France ever since the Damascus incident and their financial decision to attempt to divert over a war zone to Jordan rather than fly to a nearby safe location in Cyprus or Israel, especially when the company overrode the flightplan (which was to divert to Larnaca) I'm willing to forgive the decision to not land in Beiruit on a flimsy pretext in the first place, but to not divert to Larnaca shows unforgivable decision making.

t0mas88 4y ago

It really differs per plane, jets pitch up higher than typical general aviation aircraft during rotation and go-around. The 737 for example will command 15 degrees pitch up on the flight director when going around. If you did that on a typical general aviation trainer aircraft you would stall. We teach for example 7 degrees on the DA42 which is a typical multi-engine trainer for future airline pilots. In a jet you'll pitch up to 15 degrees initially, reduce flaps (if landing flaps were selected, for example from 30 back to 15), then once climbing you'll retract the gear. At that point you're going to have to pitch up much more than 15 degrees if you don't want to overspeed. It all happens much faster with two big jet engines compared to an underpowered general aviation plane. Especially if the crew thought they had an emergency and went full power combined with a light fuel load, you would expect a serious pitch up to avoid overspeeding the flaps.

tempnow987 4y ago
Thank you! Extremely helpful. Yes, on a small GA going to +24 degrees on a go around really jumped out as high, especially if you were starting low and very slow (on landing not uncommon). But I have zero big twin knowledge. I wish they'd included a speed plot to go with the pitch plot. The plot does show what looks like full power. Given flight duration fuel would have been way down so plane would have been (relatively) lightish most likely.
plonk 4y ago
> At that point you're going to have to pitch up much more than 15 degrees if you don't want to overspeed. What's the risk of overspeeding? Can you actually reach speeds that are dangerous to the engines while climbing?
- foxyv 4y ago
  The problem is that the mechanisms that hold the flaps in place can be damaged resulting in loss of control over the surface. Sometimes a flap on one side of the plane will be damaged and, when you go to retract the flap, the plane will start to roll. Also the flaps can be torn off the plane.
- 4y ago

willyt 4y ago

Important also to remember that after the FO, who was pilot flying, first expressed surprise that something didn’t seem right, the period of confusion lasted only about ~45 seconds before the captain confirmed that he/she had taken command. Quite a long distance at about 130kts but not a long time in human problem solving terms.