21 ms·

Hacking attractiveness biases in hiring? The role of beautifying photo-filters

135 points by temp8964 4y ago

trhway 4y ago
Zoom interviews can potentially be a great enabler by altering your appearance and voice to the ones of the sexiest woman or man alive.
hyperhopper 4y ago
This may be the most user unfriendly site I've seen in a long while. On mobile, on first open, I could see literally 0 words that were the body of this text. The banners took up almost the entire viewport. Plus they appear to have a paywall.
altdataseller 4y ago
Does being attractive really help you in getting hired in engineering positions? I would understand client-facing/sales jobs, but unsure it would help in engineering roles
- astura 4y ago
  Yes. People who are attractive are perceived as more talented, more trustworthy, and more intelligent. Those are qualities you want in an engineering hire. Beyond that attractive people are more confident.
- libraryatnight 4y ago
  It's not a strategic choice - it's a bias. Good looking candidates were perceived as more competent.
  - autoexec 4y ago
    I guess a strategic choice would be hiring an actor to pose for your photo
    - libraryatnight 4y ago
      Yeah, I'm going to need a model version of myself on retainer. I'm picturing something like the surrogate setup on Arrested Development ;)
- space_fountain 4y ago
  I think you have a baked in assumption that hiring is fair. Because you might think that when interacting with clients it makes sense to hire based on looks or at least implicitly it sounds like that's what you're thinking. But we have lots of biases that don't actually make sense. Thinking good looking people are somehow better seems totally likely to be one. And, in fact, this study says is a bias
  - Natsu 4y ago
    The study is kind of weird, because that's simply not how things are conducted during hiring: nobody puts their picture on their resume. I think some other countries do, but the norms are decidedly against that in the USA, probably to avoid biases like this.
    - joshgachnang 4y ago
      But it is very common to go search out someone's LinkedIn, which does have a profile picture.
      - yjftsjthsd-h 4y ago
        > LinkedIn, which does have a profile picture Maybe yours does, but plenty don't.
        serenitylater 4y ago
      - Natsu 4y ago
        This research makes it seem like a good idea not to provide pictures in general.
- firephonestival 4y ago
  IME it depends on the hiring funnel. It does not matter if you are interviewing for an opening which has been set aside for you. (Niche skills, nepotism, former colleagues, etc.) It does matter if you are going for a fungible position with many applicants. Not a lot, but people are biased to hire others who they think they'd enjoy spending time around. That bias helps attractive people, as well as people who look and act like part of an org's "in-group" (if one exists). It's ugly and gross, but it seems pretty fundamental to human nature.
- oh_sigh 4y ago
  I don't think it is a bad question to ask. In fact, there might even be negative biases against attractiveness for engineers. Will a dude with cheeto dust on his star wars t-shirt give a fair shake to a good looking woman who is wearing business attire and makeup, compared to another dude in a t-shirt? Let's do a test. Who would you imagine is the better engineer of these two old timey people? https://i.imgur.com/omRXYde.png https://i.imgur.com/omRXYde.png and https://i.imgur.com/3QDIkme.png https://i.imgur.com/3QDIkme.png
  - version_five 4y ago
    There is definitely (well, anecdotally) negative bias against "well put together" attractive engineers. Picture a software engineer, male or female, chances are your stereotype isn't a glamorous person in a flashy suit with an expensive haircut and grooming. And if you saw someone like that, you'd be suspicious of their technical ability. It's a sterotype, but it's not all that weird. I don't think it's necessarily about being attractive with all else being equal, it's more about the level of effort in one's appearance. Once that is accounted for, it's probably likely there is some of the usual bias towards better looking people.
    - joshgachnang 4y ago
      Also anecdotal: When I was freelancing, I'd specifically make sure to be wearing my glasses and a hoodie during the first meeting with potential clients. I had better responses and they seemed to implicitly trust that I was competent vs wearing contacts. Whereas on a dating profile/first dates, I would always wear contacts because I think I look more handsome that way. Biases are frustrating and annoying and I used to think they weren't worth worrying about. Then I went from obese to healthy weight and noticed the ways people treated me differently. Now I acknowledge that they have an effect and try to remove my own, but it's not perfect.
    - bee_rider 4y ago
      There's a sweet spot I think. Wearing a suit? Probably a business guy, not to be trusted. But raggedy T-Shirt? Ah, that's just unprofessional. The ideal male fashion icon: Mr. Rogers, classy but not trying too hard, everybody trusts a nice sweater with a collared shirt under.
- thr0waway001 4y ago
  I'd argue it can hinder sometimes. I hate to say it but it probably depends on the gender. What I will say is anecdotal and probably controversial but it is just my observation: I've seen all kinds of talented male devs and there's huge variance in their looks. Some good looking and some not. But when it comes to talented female devs: they all looked a certain type. I'll let you people decide what I mean. Yes, profiling people sucks but .... sometimes it yields results.
  - LAC-Tech 4y ago
    > But when it comes to talented female devs: they all looked a certain type. I'll let you people decide what I mean. It's a throw away account, can you just say what you mean? Honestly no type came to mind when I did a quick mental scrollback.
    - brimble 4y ago
      Not the parent, but I assume they mean the nose stud, green or blue hair that looks like it's needed to be redone for a month (but was, in fact, dyed yesterday), and at least one full-sleeve tattoo, look. [EDIT] For the record, I've seen women with that look who weren't very good, and I've seen plenty who looked different from that who were good. I don't agree with their broader assessment.
      - LAC-Tech 4y ago
        Definitely seen that fashion, but never in a coding context. Must be an SF thing.
    - racl101 4y ago
      Ehhh frumpy?
- justanother 4y ago
  "Attractive" is a wee bit subjective here, but I can tell you my career took off after I spent a small fortune on my teeth and upgraded my mic and webcam setup to near-studio-grade. If it's a coincidence, it's the most incredible case of coincidental curve-fitting that I've ever personally witnessed. It by no means guarantees you'll get the job, demonstration of competence still matters, but it sure helps break ties.
  - tubalcain 4y ago
    Attractiveness is not subjective, as facial features deemed attractive are universally accepted across both time periods and cultures. Tallness for men is always seen as better than shortness.
- Manuel_D 4y ago
  It probably matters less, but unconscious bias likely still exists to an extent. Hopefully remote work would help establish practices like interviewing over zoom with a camera off. There's potential concerns about someone else completing the coding challenges for the candidate, or otherwise more blatant cheating. But that could be accomplished by, say, capturing video and only reviewing it after a hiring decision has been made.
- rybosome 4y ago
  Being attractive helps you in everything. Humans have a fundamental positive bias towards those they perceive as attractive. At the risk of sounding arrogant, let me share my personal experience. Over a period of a year in my early thirties, I became more conventionally attractive by: purchasing clothes from StitchFix (a styling service), getting my hair cut regularly by a stylist, adopting a regular grooming routine, and exercising (especially weight lifting) frequently. Prior to this I dressed like a negatively stereotypical engineer with baggy/unstylish clothing, little to no grooming routine, and little to no exercise. People of all sexes and sexual orientations unquestionably treat me better than they did before. They are more open, more willing to give me their time and attention, quicker to trust me. I’m given favors like extra services (a barista telling me I can cut the line and give her my order directly), or small free things (bartender comping a drink for no reason). And frankly, people just look at me more. I used to feel completely invisible walking down the street, never catching anyone’s eye - not the case anymore. Because the change happened over a relatively short period of time, and because I spent my entire adult life prior not engaging in these intentional efforts to be “attractive”, the contrast was extremely obvious. There is a dark side to all this that I’m not going to get into, but I will say that having experienced the contrast I do feel motivated to maintain some level of attractiveness for the preferential treatment.
  - throwawayboise 4y ago
    Absolutely nothing wrong with taking advantage of improved grooming, hygiene, physical fitness, and clothing. These are easy things that anyone can do to gain advantages in most areas of life.
    - autoexec 4y ago
      > These are easy things that anyone can do to gain advantages in most areas of life. That seems unlikely. Most of us could stand to gain some degree of advantage, but I'm pretty there some people whose appearance is unfortunate enough that no amount of grooming, hygiene, physical fitness, or clothing will ever compensate for what fate or genetics has burdened them with.
d33 4y ago
https://psyarxiv.com/5zemc https://psyarxiv.com/5zemc
mdoms 4y ago
> In study 2, beautifying filters increased the hireability only slightly for White female applicants, followed by White and Black male applicants but substantially for Black female applicants It's a gross thing to consider but I wonder if the filter lightened the skin of black female applicants. These results are disappointing but unfortunately not surprising.
- ErikVandeWater 4y ago
  I wonder if in predominantly black countries, darkening the skin tones of white applicants would be considered beautifying.
  - dwater 4y ago
    Generally, European colonizers imported their anti-dark skin biases (colourism) to their African colonies and they persist to this day among the black populations. https://www.e-ir.info/2020/04/11/critical-reflections-on-ethnicity-and-colourism-in-africa-and-the-diaspora/ https://www.e-ir.info/2020/04/11/critical-reflections-on-eth...
    - thaumasiotes 4y ago
      > and they persist to this day among the black populations. Well, light skin preference for females persists to this day in African populations and every other population. It was also present -- and documented even in Africa -- before any European presence existed, so it's strange to say that Europeans imported it. And darker skin is usually preferred for men.
      - rajin444 4y ago
        I'm not sure how to account for darker skin _may_ be less attractive to humans on a genetic level. It's a question science can't answer, so I don't know how we could control for it. i.e, it could be the truth that the lighter your skin is the more attractive you are. How do we rule that out?
daenz 4y ago
>Both male and female applicants whose photos were filtered were perceived as more competent A tale as old as time. Politicians who are attractive have a huge perception advantage. And political campaigns that use actors (who are almost by definition attractive) appeal to these same competence biases.
- RachelF 4y ago
  Height as well. We instinctively think tall people make better leaders.
  - WalterBright 4y ago
    Tall people tend to be more relaxed in leadership roles, because they feel less of a need to prove themselves.
    - jackblemming 4y ago
      White people tend to be more relaxed in leadership roles, because they feel less of a need to prove themselves. Do you see how insane this sounds?
      - WalterBright 4y ago
        You might be interested in the biography of General Benjamin Davis, a great American hero.
      - t-3 4y ago
        The social dominance affected by greater height is not an illusion - this has been observed and studied widely. Being part of a majority group (which whites are in the US) is also noted for similar effects. Just because we don't like these things doesn't mean we should deny their existence - that's how you get systemic discrimination in the first place.
      - hedora 4y ago
        Also, men, because they're physically larger, on average. The important thing is that this all gets sussed out via whiteboard coding questions, where the candidate is put in a usually windowless box with some alpha coder, and told to solve math puzzles under time pressure, and are then judged based on "culture fit". That reminds me. Does anyone know how to buy bike desks like the ones in The Zero Theorem? I'd like to add them to our bull pen and interview setup, now that we're back in the office: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7my1G0TrwT8 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7my1G0TrwT8 (I've found that examples of what not to do are often the most useful.)
projektfu 4y ago
When I was in England for a short time I was tasked with screening candidates for employment (software engineers). As an American, I was taken aback by most of the resumes including photos. That's just not done here in the US. Some American HR departments might even send back your resume and ask you to resubmit it without a photo. It seems to be standard practice in Europe, perhaps to convince you that the person interviewing is the person associated with the resume. Of course, attractiveness factors in highly once you get your foot in the door, even if people try to act like it doesn't. Even straight male engineers seem to think more highly of attractive male engineers, just because of the "coolness" factor they may bring. There's really just not a lot of information gleaned from an interview beyond whether the person has the basic minimum knowledge for the field they are in, and these soft things take an outsize portion of the score. Things may be changing or may be different in big orgs, I don't know. I was only familiar with SME hiring.
- andmikey 4y ago
  Not sure how long ago this was - photos on resumes is definitely not a thing in the UK anymore. Very common in some European countries (e.g. Germany), though.
  - michaelt 4y ago
    Some jobs in the UK get a lot of international applicants; from time to time they'll include photos. Agree it's pretty uncommon though.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - projektfu 4y ago
    Honestly, 20 years ago. And we were seeing a lot of non-English applicants in central London, no surprise there.
    - hnlmorg 4y ago
      Those are some massive caveats that really should have been included in your original post
racl101 4y ago
I couldn't prettify my mug with 1 million filters. Hiyo!!!
maxk42 4y ago
I'm going to buck the trend and say that candidates with attractive photos are quite possibly actually more competent. When hiring, I consider the content of a resume and not its aesthetics. But the people who go the extra mile to add polish: An attractive, well-formatted resume; being well-dressed for an interview; and even adding polish to a photo - are likely candidates who express the added attention to detail I'm looking for in many roles. (Especially in design-focused roles.) Does it beat years of experience or technical competency? Absolutely not. But much like technical interviews not being a strong signal for a person's competency at a particular role they are still treated as a signal. You can have a polished photo without being an attractive person. So perhaps this study is actually measuring to some extent the perception of a person's professionalism and attention to detail rather than their inherent attractiveness. And that's not necessarily a bad thing. Which isn't to say some people may be hired based on actual attractiveness rather than their perceived capabilities, which shouldn't be a factor generally. But if you're going to get indignant about people being hired based on looks then you'd better stop using sites more attractive than craigslist or products more attractive than crocs.
- vmception 4y ago
  You can also get a feel for how well somebody can a see computer screen or at all based on the filter result they choose superimposed eye lashes that are a little misplaced extremely blurred skin far beyond removing blemishes lol
- jjeaff 4y ago
  You used the qualifier "especially for design centered roles". I would maybe amend that to "only for design centered roles and a few others". If I want to hire a hard core algorithm coder or a top level security specialist, I might not consider a neat and polished resume a negative signal, but I certainly wouldn't consider a less polished resume a negative signal. Because my experience with the type of people that are very good at those skills is that many couldn't care less about their profile photo or the font they use on their resume.
- _Parfait_ 4y ago
  "But if you're going to get indignant about people being hired based on looks then you'd better stop using sites more attractive than craigslist or products more attractive than crocs." Your first point raised about someone caring about their looks and the way their presented is a good one. But this last quote is strange.. If you're being hired for a non customer facing role do you really think this craigslist comparison is a fair one? I can get as gussied up as I can for a photo, but is it fair that the guy that looks more like Jake Gyllenhaal got hired even though I have a better skill set?
The_rationalist 4y ago
vmception 4y ago
at least someone did the study
devit 4y ago
According to their paper, they used the "Hollywood" filter in FaceApp 3.6.11 at the highest level setting.
elptacek 4y ago
And there it is, the one thing I can never have an honest conversation about. The rules are different for ugly people, based on my personal experience as one data point. We're the last lot that everyone can discriminate against, or abuse, and get away with it.
- xiphias2 4y ago
  Old people are in the same group, though age is definitely related to unattractiveness. With many sick people, it's also impossible not to discriminate (although that also correlates heavily to getting old).
  - TheAceOfHearts 4y ago
    Discriminating by age isn't always unreasonable. It's useful to have different generational perspectives in many areas. For example, I think it's a serious issue that the average age of public servants in Congress is so advanced. The older generations are responsible for training and passing the torch onto the younger generations. The older generation can't keep clinging onto power until they die off.
    - xiphias2 4y ago
      Congress is full of corrupt people, it has nothing to do with age discrimination. You won't get an old person ever joining the party, all the people who you are talking about built their political power by being corrupt for all their lives. ,, The older generations are responsible for training and passing the torch onto the younger generations.'' That's not how the world works anymore. But of course experienced people are payed well to manage unexperienced.
- erosenbe0 4y ago
  Heartbreaking to be discriminated against as a result of largely immutable characteristics but there are other groups abused with impunity as well. For example, unintelligent people who are not obviously disabled. Or people with speech defects that are not readily considered disabilities. Even people with acne, rosacea, or eczema -- which is a medical issue and protected to some extent.
TheMagicHorsey 4y ago
Does the opposite happen? Do people assume that people that are too attractive did well because of human factors instead of engineering skill? I could see that happen if this data is widely known.
- not2b 4y ago
  I think there's an assumption that the good looking, well put together person is from marketing/sales or a second level (or higher) manager rather than technical, which of course isn't always true. "executive style hair"
WalterBright 4y ago
Back in the 70's, your salary depended on your height by about a thousand dollars an inch.
- etchalon 4y ago
  As a 6'8 human, I demand a time machine. I'll pay you back.
  - WalterBright 4y ago
    If I had a time machine I'd go back to 1988 and mortgage everything to buy MSFT!
- racl101 4y ago
  As a 5 foot 2 inch male. Fuck me right?
mensetmanusman 4y ago
LinkedIn is the new resume, would be funny if they applied filters for everyone to be equally beautiful or grotesque.
Soupy 4y ago
this feels very dystopian to me
- zeepzeep 4y ago
  welcome to the real world
istinetz 4y ago
I'm sure there is a attractiveness bias, but these studies barely find an effect. Seriously, look at figure 2. It's invisible to the eye without statistical tools. I'm really suspicious of this result.
a3w 4y ago
On reading the paper I thought: "race" uhm no, you mean ethnicity or phenotype. "Rac"-ist language, though.
- SiempreViernes 4y ago
  It's from the US, where "Race" is the official census term for indicating the phenotype of a person. There is a lot of pre existing survey work using the census categories, so that's why many people keep using them whatever the flaws in the definition might be (and they're probably quite significant flaws).
Lio 4y ago
I'd use as strong photo-filters as I could get away with if I didn't think it would be depressing to see people recoiling in horror at my actual gargoyle like appearance turning up to face to face interviews like the painting from Dorian Gray's attic...
tmalsburg2 4y ago
From the article: > Data were collected from 229 participants working in a management position in the United States through Amazon Mechanical Turk. Participants were compensated at a rate equivalent to $7 per hour. I have a hard time imagining people in "management positions" working on Mechanical Turk for less than (US) minimum wage. If I understand correctly, participants also didn't rate applications with photos, but just photos. Seems possible and perhaps likely that the pragmatics of this specific task would activate biases that may not be at play (or to a lesser degree) in an actual application process where the photo would be just one piece of information. The task really seems designed to maximize effects of beautification while sacrificing generalizability to real-world settings.
- twoxproblematic 4y ago
rramadass 4y ago
Attractiveness is definitely a factor which subconsciously influences Hiring. Fair or Unfair that is life and we have to deal with it. I have heard that Google tries to control for this by having one panel of people as the Interviewers (i.e. actually meet/talk to the Interviewee) who then write-up their respective reports. This set of reports are then submitted to another panel (who have NOT met/talked to the Interviewee) who then have to make a hiring decision based solely on the reports.
- cntainer 4y ago
  Won't the bias still be present in the report? For example if a candidate left a good impression on me I'll definitely make sure that the report captures that. Not because I'm a bad actor but because I don't know any better, I don't realize my good impression is biased. At that point the panel makes the call based on a biased report and it thinks the decision is unbiased which is not true.
  - rramadass 4y ago
    The bias can be made negligent by mandating a certain format to the report (some Google insider has to provide this detail) and due to the fact that multiple such reports go into the decision-making. As an example no words which might create a impression but sticking to facts. The inference is left to the second panel. For example instead of saying the candidate thought hard about the given problem say something like the candidate tried out 3 different solutions to the problem over the interview time period. The first panel are merely conveyors of Data; so their reports have to be detailed and to the point.
    - cntainer 4y ago
      I'm sure you can reduce bias in this way but it still feels incomplete. I'm thinking another (more efficient?!) way would be to teach interviewers to detect and manage their own biases, both positive and negative. For example if I'm interviewing someone for a technical position and they're very attractive or even dressed/groomed excessively I'm making an effort to not hold that against them. I'm aware that I have a bias on this so I'm actively trying to have a balanced perspective during the interview.

135 points by temp8964 4y ago

Zoom interviews can potentially be a great enabler by altering your appearance and voice to the ones of the sexiest woman or man alive.

hyperhopper 4y ago

This may be the most user unfriendly site I've seen in a long while. On mobile, on first open, I could see literally 0 words that were the body of this text. The banners took up almost the entire viewport. Plus they appear to have a paywall.

altdataseller 4y ago

Does being attractive really help you in getting hired in engineering positions? I would understand client-facing/sales jobs, but unsure it would help in engineering roles

astura 4y ago
Yes. People who are attractive are perceived as more talented, more trustworthy, and more intelligent. Those are qualities you want in an engineering hire. Beyond that attractive people are more confident.
libraryatnight 4y ago
It's not a strategic choice - it's a bias. Good looking candidates were perceived as more competent.
- autoexec 4y ago
  I guess a strategic choice would be hiring an actor to pose for your photo
  - libraryatnight 4y ago
    Yeah, I'm going to need a model version of myself on retainer. I'm picturing something like the surrogate setup on Arrested Development ;)
space_fountain 4y ago
I think you have a baked in assumption that hiring is fair. Because you might think that when interacting with clients it makes sense to hire based on looks or at least implicitly it sounds like that's what you're thinking. But we have lots of biases that don't actually make sense. Thinking good looking people are somehow better seems totally likely to be one. And, in fact, this study says is a bias
- Natsu 4y ago
  The study is kind of weird, because that's simply not how things are conducted during hiring: nobody puts their picture on their resume. I think some other countries do, but the norms are decidedly against that in the USA, probably to avoid biases like this.
  - joshgachnang 4y ago
    But it is very common to go search out someone's LinkedIn, which does have a profile picture.
    - yjftsjthsd-h 4y ago
      > LinkedIn, which does have a profile picture Maybe yours does, but plenty don't.
      - serenitylater 4y ago
    - Natsu 4y ago
      This research makes it seem like a good idea not to provide pictures in general.
firephonestival 4y ago
IME it depends on the hiring funnel. It does not matter if you are interviewing for an opening which has been set aside for you. (Niche skills, nepotism, former colleagues, etc.) It does matter if you are going for a fungible position with many applicants. Not a lot, but people are biased to hire others who they think they'd enjoy spending time around. That bias helps attractive people, as well as people who look and act like part of an org's "in-group" (if one exists). It's ugly and gross, but it seems pretty fundamental to human nature.
oh_sigh 4y ago
I don't think it is a bad question to ask. In fact, there might even be negative biases against attractiveness for engineers. Will a dude with cheeto dust on his star wars t-shirt give a fair shake to a good looking woman who is wearing business attire and makeup, compared to another dude in a t-shirt? Let's do a test. Who would you imagine is the better engineer of these two old timey people? https://i.imgur.com/omRXYde.png https://i.imgur.com/omRXYde.png and https://i.imgur.com/3QDIkme.png https://i.imgur.com/3QDIkme.png
- version_five 4y ago
  There is definitely (well, anecdotally) negative bias against "well put together" attractive engineers. Picture a software engineer, male or female, chances are your stereotype isn't a glamorous person in a flashy suit with an expensive haircut and grooming. And if you saw someone like that, you'd be suspicious of their technical ability. It's a sterotype, but it's not all that weird. I don't think it's necessarily about being attractive with all else being equal, it's more about the level of effort in one's appearance. Once that is accounted for, it's probably likely there is some of the usual bias towards better looking people.
  - joshgachnang 4y ago
    Also anecdotal: When I was freelancing, I'd specifically make sure to be wearing my glasses and a hoodie during the first meeting with potential clients. I had better responses and they seemed to implicitly trust that I was competent vs wearing contacts. Whereas on a dating profile/first dates, I would always wear contacts because I think I look more handsome that way. Biases are frustrating and annoying and I used to think they weren't worth worrying about. Then I went from obese to healthy weight and noticed the ways people treated me differently. Now I acknowledge that they have an effect and try to remove my own, but it's not perfect.
  - bee_rider 4y ago
    There's a sweet spot I think. Wearing a suit? Probably a business guy, not to be trusted. But raggedy T-Shirt? Ah, that's just unprofessional. The ideal male fashion icon: Mr. Rogers, classy but not trying too hard, everybody trusts a nice sweater with a collared shirt under.
thr0waway001 4y ago
I'd argue it can hinder sometimes. I hate to say it but it probably depends on the gender. What I will say is anecdotal and probably controversial but it is just my observation: I've seen all kinds of talented male devs and there's huge variance in their looks. Some good looking and some not. But when it comes to talented female devs: they all looked a certain type. I'll let you people decide what I mean. Yes, profiling people sucks but .... sometimes it yields results.
- LAC-Tech 4y ago
  > But when it comes to talented female devs: they all looked a certain type. I'll let you people decide what I mean. It's a throw away account, can you just say what you mean? Honestly no type came to mind when I did a quick mental scrollback.
  - brimble 4y ago
    Not the parent, but I assume they mean the nose stud, green or blue hair that looks like it's needed to be redone for a month (but was, in fact, dyed yesterday), and at least one full-sleeve tattoo, look. [EDIT] For the record, I've seen women with that look who weren't very good, and I've seen plenty who looked different from that who were good. I don't agree with their broader assessment.
    - LAC-Tech 4y ago
      Definitely seen that fashion, but never in a coding context. Must be an SF thing.
  - racl101 4y ago
    Ehhh frumpy?
justanother 4y ago
"Attractive" is a wee bit subjective here, but I can tell you my career took off after I spent a small fortune on my teeth and upgraded my mic and webcam setup to near-studio-grade. If it's a coincidence, it's the most incredible case of coincidental curve-fitting that I've ever personally witnessed. It by no means guarantees you'll get the job, demonstration of competence still matters, but it sure helps break ties.
- tubalcain 4y ago
  Attractiveness is not subjective, as facial features deemed attractive are universally accepted across both time periods and cultures. Tallness for men is always seen as better than shortness.
Manuel_D 4y ago
It probably matters less, but unconscious bias likely still exists to an extent. Hopefully remote work would help establish practices like interviewing over zoom with a camera off. There's potential concerns about someone else completing the coding challenges for the candidate, or otherwise more blatant cheating. But that could be accomplished by, say, capturing video and only reviewing it after a hiring decision has been made.
rybosome 4y ago
Being attractive helps you in everything. Humans have a fundamental positive bias towards those they perceive as attractive. At the risk of sounding arrogant, let me share my personal experience. Over a period of a year in my early thirties, I became more conventionally attractive by: purchasing clothes from StitchFix (a styling service), getting my hair cut regularly by a stylist, adopting a regular grooming routine, and exercising (especially weight lifting) frequently. Prior to this I dressed like a negatively stereotypical engineer with baggy/unstylish clothing, little to no grooming routine, and little to no exercise. People of all sexes and sexual orientations unquestionably treat me better than they did before. They are more open, more willing to give me their time and attention, quicker to trust me. I’m given favors like extra services (a barista telling me I can cut the line and give her my order directly), or small free things (bartender comping a drink for no reason). And frankly, people just look at me more. I used to feel completely invisible walking down the street, never catching anyone’s eye - not the case anymore. Because the change happened over a relatively short period of time, and because I spent my entire adult life prior not engaging in these intentional efforts to be “attractive”, the contrast was extremely obvious. There is a dark side to all this that I’m not going to get into, but I will say that having experienced the contrast I do feel motivated to maintain some level of attractiveness for the preferential treatment.
- throwawayboise 4y ago
  Absolutely nothing wrong with taking advantage of improved grooming, hygiene, physical fitness, and clothing. These are easy things that anyone can do to gain advantages in most areas of life.
  - autoexec 4y ago
    > These are easy things that anyone can do to gain advantages in most areas of life. That seems unlikely. Most of us could stand to gain some degree of advantage, but I'm pretty there some people whose appearance is unfortunate enough that no amount of grooming, hygiene, physical fitness, or clothing will ever compensate for what fate or genetics has burdened them with.

d33 4y ago

https://psyarxiv.com/5zemc https://psyarxiv.com/5zemc

mdoms 4y ago

> In study 2, beautifying filters increased the hireability only slightly for White female applicants, followed by White and Black male applicants but substantially for Black female applicants It's a gross thing to consider but I wonder if the filter lightened the skin of black female applicants. These results are disappointing but unfortunately not surprising.

ErikVandeWater 4y ago
I wonder if in predominantly black countries, darkening the skin tones of white applicants would be considered beautifying.
- dwater 4y ago
  Generally, European colonizers imported their anti-dark skin biases (colourism) to their African colonies and they persist to this day among the black populations. https://www.e-ir.info/2020/04/11/critical-reflections-on-ethnicity-and-colourism-in-africa-and-the-diaspora/ https://www.e-ir.info/2020/04/11/critical-reflections-on-eth...
  - thaumasiotes 4y ago
    > and they persist to this day among the black populations. Well, light skin preference for females persists to this day in African populations and every other population. It was also present -- and documented even in Africa -- before any European presence existed, so it's strange to say that Europeans imported it. And darker skin is usually preferred for men.
    - rajin444 4y ago
      I'm not sure how to account for darker skin _may_ be less attractive to humans on a genetic level. It's a question science can't answer, so I don't know how we could control for it. i.e, it could be the truth that the lighter your skin is the more attractive you are. How do we rule that out?

daenz 4y ago

>Both male and female applicants whose photos were filtered were perceived as more competent A tale as old as time. Politicians who are attractive have a huge perception advantage. And political campaigns that use actors (who are almost by definition attractive) appeal to these same competence biases.

RachelF 4y ago
Height as well. We instinctively think tall people make better leaders.
- WalterBright 4y ago
  Tall people tend to be more relaxed in leadership roles, because they feel less of a need to prove themselves.
  - jackblemming 4y ago
    White people tend to be more relaxed in leadership roles, because they feel less of a need to prove themselves. Do you see how insane this sounds?
    - WalterBright 4y ago
      You might be interested in the biography of General Benjamin Davis, a great American hero.
    - t-3 4y ago
      The social dominance affected by greater height is not an illusion - this has been observed and studied widely. Being part of a majority group (which whites are in the US) is also noted for similar effects. Just because we don't like these things doesn't mean we should deny their existence - that's how you get systemic discrimination in the first place.
    - hedora 4y ago
      Also, men, because they're physically larger, on average. The important thing is that this all gets sussed out via whiteboard coding questions, where the candidate is put in a usually windowless box with some alpha coder, and told to solve math puzzles under time pressure, and are then judged based on "culture fit". That reminds me. Does anyone know how to buy bike desks like the ones in The Zero Theorem? I'd like to add them to our bull pen and interview setup, now that we're back in the office: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7my1G0TrwT8 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7my1G0TrwT8 (I've found that examples of what not to do are often the most useful.)

projektfu 4y ago

When I was in England for a short time I was tasked with screening candidates for employment (software engineers). As an American, I was taken aback by most of the resumes including photos. That's just not done here in the US. Some American HR departments might even send back your resume and ask you to resubmit it without a photo. It seems to be standard practice in Europe, perhaps to convince you that the person interviewing is the person associated with the resume. Of course, attractiveness factors in highly once you get your foot in the door, even if people try to act like it doesn't. Even straight male engineers seem to think more highly of attractive male engineers, just because of the "coolness" factor they may bring. There's really just not a lot of information gleaned from an interview beyond whether the person has the basic minimum knowledge for the field they are in, and these soft things take an outsize portion of the score. Things may be changing or may be different in big orgs, I don't know. I was only familiar with SME hiring.

andmikey 4y ago
Not sure how long ago this was - photos on resumes is definitely not a thing in the UK anymore. Very common in some European countries (e.g. Germany), though.
- michaelt 4y ago
  Some jobs in the UK get a lot of international applicants; from time to time they'll include photos. Agree it's pretty uncommon though.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- projektfu 4y ago
  Honestly, 20 years ago. And we were seeing a lot of non-English applicants in central London, no surprise there.
  - hnlmorg 4y ago
    Those are some massive caveats that really should have been included in your original post

racl101 4y ago

I couldn't prettify my mug with 1 million filters. Hiyo!!!

maxk42 4y ago

I'm going to buck the trend and say that candidates with attractive photos are quite possibly actually more competent. When hiring, I consider the content of a resume and not its aesthetics. But the people who go the extra mile to add polish: An attractive, well-formatted resume; being well-dressed for an interview; and even adding polish to a photo - are likely candidates who express the added attention to detail I'm looking for in many roles. (Especially in design-focused roles.) Does it beat years of experience or technical competency? Absolutely not. But much like technical interviews not being a strong signal for a person's competency at a particular role they are still treated as a signal. You can have a polished photo without being an attractive person. So perhaps this study is actually measuring to some extent the perception of a person's professionalism and attention to detail rather than their inherent attractiveness. And that's not necessarily a bad thing. Which isn't to say some people may be hired based on actual attractiveness rather than their perceived capabilities, which shouldn't be a factor generally. But if you're going to get indignant about people being hired based on looks then you'd better stop using sites more attractive than craigslist or products more attractive than crocs.

vmception 4y ago
You can also get a feel for how well somebody can a see computer screen or at all based on the filter result they choose superimposed eye lashes that are a little misplaced extremely blurred skin far beyond removing blemishes lol
jjeaff 4y ago
You used the qualifier "especially for design centered roles". I would maybe amend that to "only for design centered roles and a few others". If I want to hire a hard core algorithm coder or a top level security specialist, I might not consider a neat and polished resume a negative signal, but I certainly wouldn't consider a less polished resume a negative signal. Because my experience with the type of people that are very good at those skills is that many couldn't care less about their profile photo or the font they use on their resume.
_Parfait_ 4y ago
"But if you're going to get indignant about people being hired based on looks then you'd better stop using sites more attractive than craigslist or products more attractive than crocs." Your first point raised about someone caring about their looks and the way their presented is a good one. But this last quote is strange.. If you're being hired for a non customer facing role do you really think this craigslist comparison is a fair one? I can get as gussied up as I can for a photo, but is it fair that the guy that looks more like Jake Gyllenhaal got hired even though I have a better skill set?

The_rationalist 4y ago

vmception 4y ago

at least someone did the study

devit 4y ago

According to their paper, they used the "Hollywood" filter in FaceApp 3.6.11 at the highest level setting.

elptacek 4y ago

And there it is, the one thing I can never have an honest conversation about. The rules are different for ugly people, based on my personal experience as one data point. We're the last lot that everyone can discriminate against, or abuse, and get away with it.

xiphias2 4y ago
Old people are in the same group, though age is definitely related to unattractiveness. With many sick people, it's also impossible not to discriminate (although that also correlates heavily to getting old).
- TheAceOfHearts 4y ago
  Discriminating by age isn't always unreasonable. It's useful to have different generational perspectives in many areas. For example, I think it's a serious issue that the average age of public servants in Congress is so advanced. The older generations are responsible for training and passing the torch onto the younger generations. The older generation can't keep clinging onto power until they die off.
  - xiphias2 4y ago
    Congress is full of corrupt people, it has nothing to do with age discrimination. You won't get an old person ever joining the party, all the people who you are talking about built their political power by being corrupt for all their lives. ,, The older generations are responsible for training and passing the torch onto the younger generations.'' That's not how the world works anymore. But of course experienced people are payed well to manage unexperienced.
erosenbe0 4y ago
Heartbreaking to be discriminated against as a result of largely immutable characteristics but there are other groups abused with impunity as well. For example, unintelligent people who are not obviously disabled. Or people with speech defects that are not readily considered disabilities. Even people with acne, rosacea, or eczema -- which is a medical issue and protected to some extent.

TheMagicHorsey 4y ago

Does the opposite happen? Do people assume that people that are too attractive did well because of human factors instead of engineering skill? I could see that happen if this data is widely known.

not2b 4y ago
I think there's an assumption that the good looking, well put together person is from marketing/sales or a second level (or higher) manager rather than technical, which of course isn't always true. "executive style hair"

WalterBright 4y ago

Back in the 70's, your salary depended on your height by about a thousand dollars an inch.

etchalon 4y ago
As a 6'8 human, I demand a time machine. I'll pay you back.
- WalterBright 4y ago
  If I had a time machine I'd go back to 1988 and mortgage everything to buy MSFT!
racl101 4y ago
As a 5 foot 2 inch male. Fuck me right?

mensetmanusman 4y ago

LinkedIn is the new resume, would be funny if they applied filters for everyone to be equally beautiful or grotesque.

Soupy 4y ago

this feels very dystopian to me

zeepzeep 4y ago
welcome to the real world

istinetz 4y ago

I'm sure there is a attractiveness bias, but these studies barely find an effect. Seriously, look at figure 2. It's invisible to the eye without statistical tools. I'm really suspicious of this result.

a3w 4y ago

On reading the paper I thought: "race" uhm no, you mean ethnicity or phenotype. "Rac"-ist language, though.

SiempreViernes 4y ago
It's from the US, where "Race" is the official census term for indicating the phenotype of a person. There is a lot of pre existing survey work using the census categories, so that's why many people keep using them whatever the flaws in the definition might be (and they're probably quite significant flaws).

Lio 4y ago

I'd use as strong photo-filters as I could get away with if I didn't think it would be depressing to see people recoiling in horror at my actual gargoyle like appearance turning up to face to face interviews like the painting from Dorian Gray's attic...

tmalsburg2 4y ago

From the article: > Data were collected from 229 participants working in a management position in the United States through Amazon Mechanical Turk. Participants were compensated at a rate equivalent to $7 per hour. I have a hard time imagining people in "management positions" working on Mechanical Turk for less than (US) minimum wage. If I understand correctly, participants also didn't rate applications with photos, but just photos. Seems possible and perhaps likely that the pragmatics of this specific task would activate biases that may not be at play (or to a lesser degree) in an actual application process where the photo would be just one piece of information. The task really seems designed to maximize effects of beautification while sacrificing generalizability to real-world settings.

twoxproblematic 4y ago

rramadass 4y ago

Attractiveness is definitely a factor which subconsciously influences Hiring. Fair or Unfair that is life and we have to deal with it. I have heard that Google tries to control for this by having one panel of people as the Interviewers (i.e. actually meet/talk to the Interviewee) who then write-up their respective reports. This set of reports are then submitted to another panel (who have NOT met/talked to the Interviewee) who then have to make a hiring decision based solely on the reports.

cntainer 4y ago
Won't the bias still be present in the report? For example if a candidate left a good impression on me I'll definitely make sure that the report captures that. Not because I'm a bad actor but because I don't know any better, I don't realize my good impression is biased. At that point the panel makes the call based on a biased report and it thinks the decision is unbiased which is not true.
- rramadass 4y ago
  The bias can be made negligent by mandating a certain format to the report (some Google insider has to provide this detail) and due to the fact that multiple such reports go into the decision-making. As an example no words which might create a impression but sticking to facts. The inference is left to the second panel. For example instead of saying the candidate thought hard about the given problem say something like the candidate tried out 3 different solutions to the problem over the interview time period. The first panel are merely conveyors of Data; so their reports have to be detailed and to the point.
  - cntainer 4y ago
    I'm sure you can reduce bias in this way but it still feels incomplete. I'm thinking another (more efficient?!) way would be to teach interviewers to detect and manage their own biases, both positive and negative. For example if I'm interviewing someone for a technical position and they're very attractive or even dressed/groomed excessively I'm making an effort to not hold that against them. I'm aware that I have a bias on this so I'm actively trying to have a balanced perspective during the interview.