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Are the Great Lakes really inland seas?
- shotta 5y agoI have always loved this song about a shipwreck on the Great Lakes. https://youtu.be/FuzTkGyxkYI https://youtu.be/FuzTkGyxkYI
- justusthane 5y agoI have to say, I grew up on Lake Superior in Wisconsin, and it’s funny to hear the Edmund Fitzgerald referred to as just “a shipwreck.” In this area, the sinking of the Fitzgerald easily has more cultural relevance than the Titanic. In the small towns that surround Lake Superior, it’s not uncommon to run into someone who lost a loved one, so be careful making jokes in bars — and there are jokes[1]. The mystery of it is also intriguing. To this day no one knows exactly how or why the Fitzgerald sank. The last radio message received from the captain said, “We’re holding our own,” and no distress signal was ever sent. Everyone onboard died. It’s worth reading the Wikipedia page[2]. [1]: https://youtu.be/udZFnUb4Q6A https://youtu.be/udZFnUb4Q6A [2]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Edmund_Fitzgerald https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Edmund_Fitzgerald
- alehlopeh 5y ago29 people died half a century ago, and it’s not uncommon to run into one of their loved ones in a random bar? I am skeptical of that claim.
- pfarrell 5y agoIt sank in 1975. There could certainly be children of the sailors alive, and a spouse who was in their 30’s at the time would be around their 80’s now. That doesn’t seem far fetched.
- ceejayoz 5y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birthday_problem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birthday_problem, and I presume "loved one" might include cousins, grandchildren, etc.
- justusthane 5y agoMaybe "not uncommon" was a bit strong, but it happens. What you have to realize is that these are very small towns[1], shipping is a big industry for the area, and a guy two generations ago can have a lot of grandchildren. [1]: Check out the list of cities on Lake Superior on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_on_the_Great_Lakes#Lake_Superior https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_on_the_Great_La... The three largest are Thunder Bay (108,800), Duluth (86,600), and Sault Sainte Marie, ON (72,000). After that, the mean population of the remaining "cities" is 7,495. I grew up in Ashland, which at 7,908 brings the average up :)
- avgcorrection 5y ago> I have to say, I grew up on Lake Superior in Wisconsin, and it’s funny to hear the Edmund Fitzgerald referred to as just “a shipwreck.” How should one address it? The Great, Most Exalted, Venerable Shipwreck?
- justusthane 5y agoI wasn't intending to say that GP should have called it differently, nor implying that they weren't paying it "proper respect" or something. I was just trying to provide context as to the cultural significance of the event to the area, because I think it's interesting.
- sybercecurity 5y agoThose in the Rust Belt can visit the National Museum of the Great Lakes in Toledo, OH: https://nmgl.org/ https://nmgl.org/ They had an exhibit of finding and searching the Edmund Fitzgerald when I was there last.
- bombcar 5y agoThe Edmund Fitzgerald sank in water shallower than it was long. Gordon changed the lyrics at one point when additional information came to light.
- jerf 5y agoThere is a museum in Michigan dedicated specifically to the Edmund Fitzgerald. When I was there, I realized that they would play this song every other song; they'd play Wreck Of The Edmund Fitzgerald, then some other contemporaneous song, then Wreck Of The Edmund Fitzgerald, then some other contemporaneous song, etc. And Wreck Of The Edmund Fitzgerald is relatively long compared to the other songs of its era, so it's probably playing in the museum about two-thirds of the time. I could never work there. I'd go insane.
- padobson 5y agoDon't forget to try the beer! https://www.greatlakesbrewing.com/edmund-fitzgerald https://www.greatlakesbrewing.com/edmund-fitzgerald
- griffinkelly 5y agoSome decent scuba-wreck diving in the Lakes. I've scuba dived a few, one right off of U Chicago is snorkel depth, and one about 20 ft off of Evanston, IL. Regardless, the Naval Aviation Museum has pulled a lot of airplanes from Lake Michigan: https://www.history.navy.mil/research/underwater-archaeology/sites-and-projects/aircraft-wrecksites/aircraft-wrecks-in-lake-michigan.html https://www.history.navy.mil/research/underwater-archaeology...
- throw0101a 5y ago
- luma 5y agoYou've misquoted the article, and as a result, have confused your pronouns. Nowhere does the article suggest that the USCG operates in the Black Sea.
- kasey_junk 5y agoBut the link they provide shows just that. Which I found surprising.
- torstenvl 5y agoThe quote is "Superior and its siblings are capable of storm surges, rip currents, tsunamis, rogue waves, unique extreme weather phenomena, and destructive surf. They have claimed more than 6,000 ships, more than the Gulf of Mexico and the Black Sea combined, according to estimates." Your creative and ungrammatical editing aside, please don't spam your unrelated political hot takes.
- throw0101a 5y ago"political hot takes" ? Even if I misinterpreted the article (oops), the USCG does operate in the Black Sea as evidenced by the linked article.
- unethical_ban 5y agoWhy bring it up?
- throw0101a 5y agoBecause I find/found it surprising and was curious if the Hive Mind of HN may have an explanation.
- dncornholio 5y agoI think to call it a sea it must be huge and salty. The arguments against this in the article is that Baltic sea is "pretty fresh", so it actually is salty. They also say the Dead sea is a lake, which is logical because it's tiny. If anyone can point to a sea that's not salty, I'd be happy to know. Until then, these are just lakes! Which is fine, because a sea is not better than a lake, and vice versa.
- daveslash 5y agoRe >> If anyone can point to a sea that's not salty, I'd be happy to know Sea of Tranquility. Checkmate. (Okay, I'll show myself out...)
- webstrand 5y agoThe Sea of Galilee is actually freshwater. But on the other hand lake doesn't imply freshwater, e.g. The Great Salt Lake.
- dncornholio 5y agoA lake can be salty, but a sea cannot be fresh. The Sea of Galilee is a lake, just like the Dead Sea.
- dehrmann 5y agoI think this is just because it's been called that historically. It's smaller than Lake Tahoe, so there isn't much debate about it being a lake.
- technothrasher 5y ago> If anyone can point to a sea that's not salty, I'd be happy to know. Until then, these are just lakes! That feels a bit circular. If you define sea as having to contain saltwater, then how could anybody point you to a sea that isn't salty?
- quietbritishjim 5y agoBecause language is defined by usage, if there was a body of water that is freshwater but widely agreed to be a sea then the parent commenter is agreeing to revise their definition to match.
- blakesterz 5y ago"They hold more than a fifth of Earth’s unfrozen fresh water" I read quite a few stories about the horrible drought in the west, and here I am sitting on a good part of all the usable water in the entire world. I can't help but think at some point a bunch of people are going to come for that water, in one way or another. Either by moving here, or trying to move it there. Some ideas have been floating around about that for a while https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2017/04/10/great-lakes-water-piped-southwest-our-future-says-nasa-scientist/100301326/ https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2017/04/10/g...
- mcphage 5y ago> Either by moving here That's one of the reasons I'm staying where I am. > trying to move it there Being that they straddle the US / Canadian border, it's legally much more difficult to mass pump water out of them. Probably the main reason it hasn't happened yet.
- maxerickson 5y agoThere's an agreement not to: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Lakes_Compact https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Lakes_Compact
- cmrdporcupine 5y agoIt's legally forbidden by treaty of all the states and provinces that border them. For now. There's also little reason for it. There's plenty of rich farmland here to grow on. Agriculture should move back to this region, and growing practices and crops adapt for the colder climate. Growing heavily irrigated crops in the desert or semi-arid regions has many advantages but makes little sense in a water constrained world. Right now the rich well watered soils of the midwest and great lakes region are being wasted on cash crop soy/corn rotation. Chipping away at the rich top soils for animal feed etc. There's a lot more that could be done here. This land is good for so many things... growing almonds in California? Grow hardy hybrid hazelnuts in the east. Cold hardy, disease resistant grapes make exotic regional wines with a unique eastern terroir and a long history, mostly forgotten. Bring back the apples orchards. The peaches and apricots. Re-open the canning and juicing plants. It's a shorter, mostly single season for most annual vegetable crops, but so much fertile land and water. And greenhouses add a lot of value.
- engineer_22 5y agoNot salty, not seas.
- throwaway787544 5y agoSo is the great salt lake a sea?
- EForEndeavour 5y agoI'm no hydrologist, but Great Salt Lake can stay a lake if you accept that salinity is necessary but not sufficient for a body of water to count as a sea. In other words: all seas are salty, but not all salty water bodies are seas. Edit: https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/differences-between-sea-and-lake.html https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/differences-between-sea-... > A sea contains only salty water, while a lake can contain either salty or freshwater
- itslennysfault 5y agoNot reading the article, not sure why you're commenting.
- twelvechairs 5y agoIts all semantics of course but what the article doesnt mention is flow. I cant think of another sea that drains into a river. Edit: in fact the word 'lake' is derived from meaning to drain ('leak' is similar)
- jameshart 5y agoThe Bosphorus and Dardanelles, between the Black Sea and the Aegean/Mediterranean, are quite a lot like a river. There are both shorter and wider bodies of water that are considered rivers.
- twelvechairs 5y agoThey don't have a one way flow though
- jameshart 5y agoMany rivers have tidal flows in their lower reaches. Maybe the Turkish Straits are just an extreme example of that?
- trylfthsk 5y agoNeither do the Straits of Mackinac
- Kon-Peki 5y agoA lot of people argue that the Straits of Mackinac is just a very narrow section of a single large lake - in other words that Lake Michigan and Lake Huron are a single lake, not two lakes.
- PopAlongKid 5y agoYes, there is just a single lake comprising Michigan and Huron.[0] [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straits_of_Mackinac https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straits_of_Mackinac
- cmrdporcupine 5y agoSeas or not, I love the lakes and the land around them, in the 20+ years since I moved myself here they've taken over my heart. I'm from the aspen parkland of central Alberta; thin trees, dry air, small muddy leach-infested kettle lakes, big skies, poplar and birch land. When I was 8 we did a trip across Canada, and I remember us camping by the shores of Superior when a massive thunderstorm came rolling in, and it left a lifelong impression on me. When I was 16 I did an exchange with a family in rural Ontario near Huron, and the moment I saw the rolling green hills, the maples and oaks, the cyan waters of Huron lapping against the limestone, the heavy humid air, the wild grapes crawling on every fence, I was sold. In my early 20s I moved to Toronto for work, and I've been near Lake Ontario since. I'm an atheist, a materialist... but there's something deeply spiritual about the Great Lakes, powerful and intimidating like the ocean but more accomodating in their fresh water and the fact that massive as they are, they're more finite than the ocean. My wife participated in an archaeological dig down on some low flat lands near the shore, on a calm inland bay near here some years ago. The ceramic cookware, the copious fish bones, the arrowheads and fish hooks, it was fascinating how the lake has been giving rich life to people here for thousands of years; in fact so diminished now from what it was then when fish were more abundant. They're pretty awesome, these lakes. I am not sure people who grow up next to them (like my kids) appreciate what they are in the same way?
- jamincan 5y agoIt's funny, because having grown up near the Great Lakes, the wide open land of the prairies and tundra appeal to me in a way that the geography of S. Ontario just doesn't. I like to see the horizon, and you just can't do that here, unless you're right on one of the lakes.
- skeeter2020 5y agoYou take someone who grew up on the prairies and drop them in the mountains and they feel claustrophobic and constrained. I visit SK/MB and feel very uncomfortable because I can't ge tthe lay of the land without altitude. We benefit & suffer from our infinite adaptability.
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- andrew_ 5y agoGrew up in Michigan and I always describe them to people as "inland oceans." People in the south understand what it means to be 30 miles offshore in the Atlantic or Gulf, and it blows their mind to know that the lakes are so big you can travel far enough out in them to lose sight of land. They're "Great" bodies of water indeed, disrespect them while on their waters at your own peril.
- sophacles 5y agoI grew up around Chicago and ever since I get mildly indignant when I can see the other side of lake people describe as "big".
- zdragnar 5y agoYou can still see the other side when they're big. When you can't, then you start getting into great territory.
- RajT88 5y agoYou'll be interested to learn people occasionally cross Lake Michigan by Kayak. There's a pretty good article about a guy who did it: https://seakayaker.org/safety-crossing-lake-michigan/ https://seakayaker.org/safety-crossing-lake-michigan/ He also filmed it: https://www.youtube.com/c/MotoMaximus/videos https://www.youtube.com/c/MotoMaximus/videos (It's not quite as exciting as it sounds, watching the videos)
- bsuvc 5y ago> disrespect them while on their waters at your own peril. For sure. There is a long list shipwrecks, the most famous being the Edmund Fitzgerald. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_shipwrecks_in_the_Great_Lakes https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_shipwrecks_in_the_Gr...
- markus_zhang 5y agoGeologically speaking, I remember reading about some of them being revenant of post ice age seas like the Champlain sea. Could be a memory bug.
- bluedino 5y agoInterestingly enough the whole great lakes area was a sea, 400 million years ago. There are massive salt mines deep underground from those times.
- sidewndr46 5y agoWhy would there be deep underground salt mines from 400 million years ago?
- bluedino 5y agohttps://project.geo.msu.edu/geogmich/mibasin.html https://project.geo.msu.edu/geogmich/mibasin.html
- _ph_ 5y agoI think the distinction should be easy in this case. First of all, the great lakes are sweet water, not just water with low salinity. But most important of all: they are not directly connected to the ocean. All oceans are directly connected to each other, a ship can change between them without using locks, but they are required to reach the great lakes.
- gunfighthacksaw 5y agoWe are blessed in Ontario to have the first and second longest freshwater beaches in the world. On Lake Huron’s Georgian Bay and Lake Huron proper respectively. Nothing recharges your batteries like a day in the sun, by the great un-briny. A few clandestine cans of beer, a fruit salad and a little bit of the sticky green stuff: heaven.
- bregma 5y agoThe water is so unbelievably clear. And believably cold.
- phkahler 5y ago>> The water is so unbelievably clear. And believably cold. According to a friend, it is the best shipwreck diving in the world. The lack of salt and cold water means 100 year old ships are still preserved in great shape, often visible from the surface. IIRC there is a glass-bottomed boat ride on Superior that goes over a couple of them.
- smm11 5y agoAll things considered, there's a sweet spot looming for the Great Lakes. Maybe in 100-125 years. I'm not saying it's a not a wonderful area now, just that it's going to be epic fairly soon. For a while, anyway.
- mod 5y agoAre we meant to guess what you're hinting about?
- smm11 5y agoRight about that same time fresh water will be like gold, and eventually the lakes will either be dry or drain into the sea.
- stripline 5y agoI'm guessing they mean the climate will be nicer due to global warming. I've actually been thinking of buying property there in case my current home in the southeast ends up under water sooner than expected.
- bitwize 5y agoAre the Great Lakes really inland seas? Or are inland seas really just big lakes? Am I Chuang Tzu dreaming I am a butterfly, or am I a butterfly dreaming I am Chuang Tzu?
- danans 5y agoGrowing up I'd go sailing on the great lakes, and occasionally a storm swell would kick up and cause a 25ft sailboat to buck like a bronco. The lakes sure felt like seas then.
- taco_emoji 5y agoThey're dwarf seas
- BurningFrog 5y ago
- sarang23592 5y agoWhile this article went into some of the details of the great lake s(seas?), I would love to read about the ecosystem and marine life in the great lakes and if they mimic the seas in any way. Anyone know a good resource about that?
- RobertRoberts 5y agoNo, don't touch the definition of this water source. This appears to be the beginnings of social dialogue to get them reclassified so that they can be used "like a sea" instead of "like a lake", and therefore pump the water out of them as fast as they can make money doing it. I hope we all start recognizing the manipulation of society over the past decades in media. They seem to start with this approach, ask a question and make people think without realizing the end game. Then it escalates beyond control because no one recognized the dangers from an early enough point.
- robbrown451 5y agoIt is indeed mostly semantics. Interestingly (to me anyway) I was just following the news about Lake Powell being at a very low level, and noticed on a map just how "non-lake like" its shape is (even when at full capacity).... it just looks like a river and tributaries that are somewhat wider than they were before a dam was built. https://www.google.com/maps/place/Lake+Powell/@37.0518007,-111.2756003,11.25z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x8734231d41520103:0x7738c1bac2a22b08!8m2!3d37.0682619!4d-111.2433108 https://www.google.com/maps/place/Lake+Powell/@37.0518007,-1... Meanwhile, why is Greenland considered an island and Australia a continent? Who knows. You have to draw a line somewhere.
- dpedu 5y agoAustralia has 3x the land area as Greenland so the line is probably somewhere in between there.
- robbrown451 5y agoTrue but it is all arbitrary. If there was an island twice as big as Greenland, what would it be called? And why is Europe considered a continent when it is more accurately just a peninsula off of Asia? And if we are talking seas, why is the Caribbean a sea when it is just a region of the Atlantic ocean? Even moreso for the Sargasso sea, which is a region right out in the middle of the Atlantic (it doesn't even have any land boundaries).
- jltsiren 5y agoIt's fuzzy rather than arbitrary, because the universe resists categorization. Australia is the dominant landmass on its tectonic plate, and it's relatively far away from other major landmasses. Greenland is a lesser landmass on the North American Plate, and it's much closer to the mainland. Europe, Asia, and Africa are names people gave to the major regions surrounding the Mediterranean long ago. Later generations generalized the idea. First by using the same names for lands far behind the Europe, Asia, and Africa they were familiar with, and later by giving new names to separate landmasses. Whatever a continent is, Europe, Asia, and Africa are continents. The main difference between a sea and a lake is that a sea is a part of the ocean. The Black Sea and the Baltic Sea are seas, while the Caspian Sea and the Great Lakes are lakes. The Caribbean Sea and the Sargasso Sea have names because people needed names for those regions. And because they consist of water connected to the ocean, calling them seas seemed appropriate.
- JoeAltmaier 5y agoAs usual the discussion pretends to be about the thing, when it's actually about the semantics. The Great Lakes are measured, mapped, sounded and recorded. We know an awful lot about them, and that hasn't changed lately. The discussion isn't about them. It's about the definition of 'sea' and 'lake'. Superior, Michigan, Huron, Erie, and Ontario are still there and whatever they are, they're doing it now.
- danans 5y agoI discovered while visiting Northern Germany that the word "See" (which is etymologically related to English "sea") can refer to either a lake or the sea, depending on the gender of the article that precedes it - masculine for lake: "der See", feminine for sea: "die See". The result is a lake called the "Selenter See" that is a short distance from the Ostsee (the Baltic Sea). Pretty confusing at first!
- fourtrees 5y agoNo, seas are filled with salt water. I'm sure there are some more technical oceano-/limnogrpahical reasons to distinguish them too. Otherwise, they certainly seem like it especially when you're beyond the sight of land.
- pessimizer 5y agoThe article says a lot more about this.
- RajT88 5y agoThe great lakes are filled with species of fish we associate with salt water, however. Steelhead, Salmon, Lampreys, Goby, Sturgeon, Cod (burbot), Drum
- VintageCool 5y agoThe article states that the Great Lakes were created by glaciers scouring the land, and while that is true, I think it more accurate to say that the Great Lakes were caused by a failed continental rift. The Midcontinent Rift System formed a billion years ago and almost tore the North American craton apart, but after 15-20 million years it stopped and faded. The rift filled with sediment that was easy for the glaciers to scour away. The article links to another Atlas Obscura article about how the Red Sea is debatably a sea or an ocean, because it fills part of the East African Rift System. If we're going to refer to that distinction, then please also mention that the glaciers could scour out a lakebed because ancient geology created it!
- driscoll42 5y agoI encourage anyone who wants to read more about the history of the Great Lakes, in terms of human activity and wildlife, I highly recommend The Death and Life of the Great Lakes by Dan Egan
- raffraffraff 5y agoIf they are seas, then how could they be "inland"?
- ericmay 5y agoGreat Lakes and Michigan in particular are pretty underrated in the national consciousness in my opinion. I also wish we’d stop lumping all of this stuff together as “the Midwest” and instead refer to it as The Great Lakes region.