8 ms·

The healthcare system in the US clearly has nothing to do with free markets considering how unbelievably opaque and regulated everything is.

jerry1979 4y ago
[flagged]
- marcusverus 4y ago
  By that line of reasoning, capitalism produced Social Security and communism produced Alibaba.
- LewisVerstappen 4y ago
  Sure, but that's like blaming "humanity" for all the woes of the health care system. It's humans who produced the health care system in the US after all. You have to be more precise as there are clearly aspects of capitalism that have resulted in tremendous improvements in quality of life (look at North Korea vs. South Korea). Regulatory capture is one of the issues & revolving door politics. Especially a big problem in the healthcare & finance industries (the current head of the SEC spent his career at Goldman Sachs for ex.)
- whatshisface 4y ago
  I don't even think Marx would agree with that. He thought capitalism produced a stage of history that wasn't exactly capitalist, which then would inevitably produce communism through socialism.
  - frgtpsswrdlame 4y ago
    I doubt Marx could have thought of something more capitalist than $THC or $HCA.
    - whatshisface 4y ago
      He could have and did: factories and craftspeople from Adam Smith's world are the epitypes of capitalist activity. Giant corporations that half-merge with the government are Marx's final, dying and barely capitalist stage of capitalism, that hardly involves markets at all. He thought capitalism (factories and craftspeople) would reach the end of its lifespan and give birth to $THC or $HCA.
    - orwin 4y ago
      It is what he called late stage capitalism. He might have been wrong on the solutions, but he nailed the problem quite well.
- marcusverus 4y ago
  By that line of reasoning, capitalism produced Social Security and communism is produced Alibaba.
- whimsicalism 4y ago
  I don't think the US can be summed up with a single word. Can I hire my friend who is a medical student to perform surgery on me legally? No?
  - wcfields 4y ago
    > I don't think the US can be summed up with a single word. I think it can, I've been thinking about this and it's "scam". Like, think how often everything in our country is a straight up scam. Healthcare, parking tickets, basically anything you buy. It's almost all snake-oil flim-flam every which way and as a 'consumer' you have to wade through the mire every single day to get scammed as little as possible.
    - yoyohello13 4y ago
      So true! Everywhere I turn it's just people trying to extract the maximum amount of money from me for the minimum amount of value in return. It can't be good for our psyche.
yhoneycomb 4y ago
Actually, that’s exactly how unfettered “free market” capitalism operates. The end game is big companies end up controlling everything, including the regulations in order to tip the scales in their favor.
- LewisVerstappen 4y ago
  Regulatory capture is the issue that needs to be solved. Not free markets. Free markets are the most efficient way for information to be transferred throughout the system. Stricter campaign finance laws, ending revolving-door politics, etc. But putting the blame on free markets seems like a mistake.
  - thomasahle 4y ago
    Monopolization and regulatory capture are standard features of free markets, if you leaving them running long enough.
  - thedataslinger 4y ago
    Wait, wait, wait--you're saying that we need to solve issues like regulatory capture through legislation... so that we can have a market without governmental interference (aka a "free market")? Huh? You can't on the one hand tout the "free market", while on the other complain that we don't have the "right" kind of governmental interference. Even if you could square that circle, it still sounds disingenuous to argue that we could have the most efficient system if only we were to eliminate _thing that said system actively encourages_. The failure is baked into the game, my friend.
    - Cederfjard 4y ago
      I don’t think that reasoning is necessarily unsound. For there to be regulatory capture, there needs to be regulation. The legislation proposed could be to remove or minimize that regulation, and thus limit the ”hooks” whereby to capture it with. Replacing ”governmental interference” with ”less governmental interference”, not ”different governmental interference”. I don’t take such a libertarian view myself, by the way. Just pointing out that I don’t think you can pick apart the argument of the person you replied to in that way.
cowpig 4y ago
There's no such thing as a "free market" for healthcare. The ability for consumers to exit a market is one of the prerequisites for the invisible hand effect. You can't exit the healthcare market.
- throwawayboise 4y ago
  Sure you can. You can decide that you are not going to enrich an industry that basically does nothing for you in the long run. Everyone ends up dead, and I for one do not plan to spend my final years under constant care from a industry that is designed to drain every last dollar I have before I pass on.
  - jewayne 4y ago
    I think the majority of people say something to that effect at some point in their life. But the only real alternative is suicide of some kind, and how many people actually follow through with suicide?
- marcusverus 4y ago
  You can't exit the food market, either, and yet there is clearly a thriving free market for food. How does your theory account for this?
  - jewayne 4y ago
    45 million Americans are on the SNAP (food stamp) program. Does your definition of "thriving free market" account for this?
  - wcfields 4y ago
    I think you're being purposefully obtuse, but here's why: - SNAP / EBT / Foodstamps for people making so little money. Add onto that, Food banks. - Farm subsidies for many cheap foodstuffs (Corn) causing massive cheap, albeit junk food that can sustain. - I can literally grow food in the ground for "free", put it in mason jars and save my food for a year. I can't open a fresh can of broken-arm at the fixed cost. - Food is fungible, if I'm hungry, I can wait 2, 3, 8+ hours to eat, or have a quick snack until meal time. It's not like I need a Big Mac infusion in the next 10 seconds or else I'll die from lack of special sauce. - You have many options of food. You can eat Soylent, rice&beans, or steak for every meal at various price points. You don't really get an ala carte when it comes to Chemotherapy. - You can always eat monkey pellets [1] [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/moreplatesmoredates/comments/qbfkfl/4chan_user_eats_diet_of_monkey_chow_is_absolutely/ https://www.reddit.com/r/moreplatesmoredates/comments/qbfkfl...
callmeal 4y ago
>The healthcare system in the US clearly has nothing to do with free markets Ahem. Regulatory capture would like a word.
- dnissley 4y ago
  How has regulatory capture helped create the US healthcare system?

jerry1979 4y ago

[flagged]

marcusverus 4y ago
By that line of reasoning, capitalism produced Social Security and communism produced Alibaba.
LewisVerstappen 4y ago
Sure, but that's like blaming "humanity" for all the woes of the health care system. It's humans who produced the health care system in the US after all. You have to be more precise as there are clearly aspects of capitalism that have resulted in tremendous improvements in quality of life (look at North Korea vs. South Korea). Regulatory capture is one of the issues & revolving door politics. Especially a big problem in the healthcare & finance industries (the current head of the SEC spent his career at Goldman Sachs for ex.)
whatshisface 4y ago
I don't even think Marx would agree with that. He thought capitalism produced a stage of history that wasn't exactly capitalist, which then would inevitably produce communism through socialism.
- frgtpsswrdlame 4y ago
  I doubt Marx could have thought of something more capitalist than $THC or $HCA.
  - whatshisface 4y ago
    He could have and did: factories and craftspeople from Adam Smith's world are the epitypes of capitalist activity. Giant corporations that half-merge with the government are Marx's final, dying and barely capitalist stage of capitalism, that hardly involves markets at all. He thought capitalism (factories and craftspeople) would reach the end of its lifespan and give birth to $THC or $HCA.
  - orwin 4y ago
    It is what he called late stage capitalism. He might have been wrong on the solutions, but he nailed the problem quite well.
marcusverus 4y ago
By that line of reasoning, capitalism produced Social Security and communism is produced Alibaba.
whimsicalism 4y ago
I don't think the US can be summed up with a single word. Can I hire my friend who is a medical student to perform surgery on me legally? No?
- wcfields 4y ago
  > I don't think the US can be summed up with a single word. I think it can, I've been thinking about this and it's "scam". Like, think how often everything in our country is a straight up scam. Healthcare, parking tickets, basically anything you buy. It's almost all snake-oil flim-flam every which way and as a 'consumer' you have to wade through the mire every single day to get scammed as little as possible.
  - yoyohello13 4y ago
    So true! Everywhere I turn it's just people trying to extract the maximum amount of money from me for the minimum amount of value in return. It can't be good for our psyche.

yhoneycomb 4y ago

Actually, that’s exactly how unfettered “free market” capitalism operates. The end game is big companies end up controlling everything, including the regulations in order to tip the scales in their favor.

LewisVerstappen 4y ago
Regulatory capture is the issue that needs to be solved. Not free markets. Free markets are the most efficient way for information to be transferred throughout the system. Stricter campaign finance laws, ending revolving-door politics, etc. But putting the blame on free markets seems like a mistake.
- thomasahle 4y ago
  Monopolization and regulatory capture are standard features of free markets, if you leaving them running long enough.
- thedataslinger 4y ago
  Wait, wait, wait--you're saying that we need to solve issues like regulatory capture through legislation... so that we can have a market without governmental interference (aka a "free market")? Huh? You can't on the one hand tout the "free market", while on the other complain that we don't have the "right" kind of governmental interference. Even if you could square that circle, it still sounds disingenuous to argue that we could have the most efficient system if only we were to eliminate _thing that said system actively encourages_. The failure is baked into the game, my friend.
  - Cederfjard 4y ago
    I don’t think that reasoning is necessarily unsound. For there to be regulatory capture, there needs to be regulation. The legislation proposed could be to remove or minimize that regulation, and thus limit the ”hooks” whereby to capture it with. Replacing ”governmental interference” with ”less governmental interference”, not ”different governmental interference”. I don’t take such a libertarian view myself, by the way. Just pointing out that I don’t think you can pick apart the argument of the person you replied to in that way.

cowpig 4y ago

There's no such thing as a "free market" for healthcare. The ability for consumers to exit a market is one of the prerequisites for the invisible hand effect. You can't exit the healthcare market.

throwawayboise 4y ago
Sure you can. You can decide that you are not going to enrich an industry that basically does nothing for you in the long run. Everyone ends up dead, and I for one do not plan to spend my final years under constant care from a industry that is designed to drain every last dollar I have before I pass on.
- jewayne 4y ago
  I think the majority of people say something to that effect at some point in their life. But the only real alternative is suicide of some kind, and how many people actually follow through with suicide?
marcusverus 4y ago
You can't exit the food market, either, and yet there is clearly a thriving free market for food. How does your theory account for this?
- jewayne 4y ago
  45 million Americans are on the SNAP (food stamp) program. Does your definition of "thriving free market" account for this?
- wcfields 4y ago
  I think you're being purposefully obtuse, but here's why: - SNAP / EBT / Foodstamps for people making so little money. Add onto that, Food banks. - Farm subsidies for many cheap foodstuffs (Corn) causing massive cheap, albeit junk food that can sustain. - I can literally grow food in the ground for "free", put it in mason jars and save my food for a year. I can't open a fresh can of broken-arm at the fixed cost. - Food is fungible, if I'm hungry, I can wait 2, 3, 8+ hours to eat, or have a quick snack until meal time. It's not like I need a Big Mac infusion in the next 10 seconds or else I'll die from lack of special sauce. - You have many options of food. You can eat Soylent, rice&beans, or steak for every meal at various price points. You don't really get an ala carte when it comes to Chemotherapy. - You can always eat monkey pellets [1] [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/moreplatesmoredates/comments/qbfkfl/4chan_user_eats_diet_of_monkey_chow_is_absolutely/ https://www.reddit.com/r/moreplatesmoredates/comments/qbfkfl...

callmeal 4y ago

>The healthcare system in the US clearly has nothing to do with free markets Ahem. Regulatory capture would like a word.

dnissley 4y ago
How has regulatory capture helped create the US healthcare system?