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I've been self-hosting email for about 20 years, from a dedicated server in Europe. The server hardware has been replaced a couple of times but kept its IP. If

by jhugo 5y ago

I've been self-hosting email for about 20 years, from a dedicated server in Europe. The server hardware has been replaced a couple of times but kept its IP. If you set everything up right, and choose the host for your mail server carefully, and never change IP, after a fairly short time you won't have much problem with being marked as spam. No more so than with any other email host. As is so often the case, the people that say you should never do it probably have little relevant experience, they are just repeating something they heard.

Noughmad 5y ago
> As is so often the case, the people that say you should never do it probably have little relevant experience, they are just repeating something they heard. More likely, they're saying that 99% of people don't know how to self-host, and for 99% of the rest it's not worth the trouble. Also, if you have to ask, then you shouldn't self-host it.
- kijin 5y ago
  People who have been hosting their own email for decades like GP probably built up a solid reputation for their domain and IP before spam filtering became such a kafkaesque business and IPv4 blocks became so fragmented. If you start self-hosting now, you should be prepared to lose quite a few emails randomly for the first X months while everyone else tries to figure out whether you're legit or not. Though I would encourage anyone who can to try to self-host at least some part of their email infrastructure, even if just for the learning experience, I would also recommend that they avoid using self-hosted email for anything business-critical until they're sure they've got the hang of it.
  - tragictrash 5y ago
    Don't forget about attacks. If you lose control of that domain you are pwnd.
    - jhugo 5y ago
      I'll definitely take that (which is largely under my control) over e.g. Google deciding that I've done something wrong one day and cutting off my email.
      - tragictrash 5y ago
        I agree with your sentiment, but It's not under your control. It's under the registrar's control. I'd argue registrars are way more prone to social engineering attacks than google is. I also don't use Google as my email provider though.
        jhugo 5y ago
        The choice of registrar is under my control, though. Also, little-known fact: if you register a UK company (probably more practical if you already have one, but the effort is not actually that big), you can register .uk domains directly with Nominet, the UK registry, by setting yourself up as a self-managed registrar. It doesn't cost anything (beyond the cost of the domain name) and is very easy. I'd love to know if there are any other registries that allow something similar.
        tragictrash 5y ago
        I'm in the USA and would totally bite the bullet and do something like that, if possible
        FredPret 5y ago
        Man, this is really cool. Email is central to online identity and sounds like you have more control over yours than anyone I’ve heard of.
  - rhn_mk1 5y ago
    > you should be prepared to lose quite a few emails randomly for the first X months while everyone else tries to figure out whether you're legit or not And then prepared to lose quite a few emails consistently for the next 10 years when some decide you're not legit. Source: I self-host.
  - kuschku 5y ago
    Tip: Start with a solid SPF, DKIM, DMARC policy and register for microsoft, yahoo, etc.’s admin tools and add your domain to google’s webmaster and postmaster tools. (Yes, even if Google postmaster won’t show you anything yet) Use mail-tester.com or similar tools to ensure everything is configured correctly. And then just start sending. As long as your volume grows slowly over the first few months, you’ll get basically no rejects.
    - kijin 5y ago
      Yep, it takes patience and lots of trial and error to build and maintain a reliable email server, unlike an HTTP server or Minecraft server which you can fire up with a script any time you want. Probably explains why so few people do it successfully.
    - Arch-TK 5y ago
      What is the yahoo version of SNDS (the microsoft thing) called?
    - bityard 5y ago
      I know about the Google postmaster tools but I'm coming up blank finding anything about Microsoft and Yahoo. Do you (or anyone else) have links to these?
      - teddyh 5y ago
        Microsoft: https://sendersupport.olc.protection.outlook.com/snds/index.aspx https://sendersupport.olc.protection.outlook.com/snds/index....
      - kuschku 5y ago
        Yahoo has merged theirs with AOL (kinda) and currently they only seem to offer https://senders.yahooinc.com/contact/#complaint-feedback-loop https://senders.yahooinc.com/contact/#complaint-feedback-loo...
- tinsmith 5y ago
  "If you have to ask, you shouldn't be doing it," said the tired old King of Gatekeeping. For a second, I thought I was on Stackoverflow. If you aren't starting by asking questions about the possibilities or limitations of a system you're about to work in, then you aren't starting properly.
  - Noughmad 5y ago
    Except Google and StackOverflow exist now. You start by searching and reading tutorials, not by asking other people.
  - JohnWhigham 5y ago
    That adage exists because those who really want to do it won't be asking to be spoonfed and will instead start doing the research themselves.
    - eddieroger 5y ago
      For perspective, some may perceive doing research as being spoon-fed. Sometimes, you don't know where to start and need a hand. At one point, I didn't know how to turn on a computer, and now I'm a software engineer.
      - ehutch79 5y ago
        The area of 'i barely know how to keep a server running' is a problem for everyone else on the internet as your mail server starts relaying a deluge spam and phishing emails
    - tinsmith 5y ago
      I get why it exists, but we also have to be honest with ourselves and admit that there is a massive problem in communicating without assumption of prior knowledge/experience. The tech world is particularly guilty of this, with veterans having forgotten that there was a time when they didn't know what they know, and lacking any patience to adequately help those seeking understanding. To add to the issue, the Internet proper is so noisy with partial or broken information that the task of finding the correct information is far more daunting than it was 20 years ago when I started learning. We need to give newcomers a break and answer their questions well, and discuss to promote understanding, instead of swatting at them with our canes. The only way knowledge passes to the next generation of thinkers and tinkers is if we fuel that curiousity.
- sosborn 5y ago
  I would amend this to say, "If you have to ask, then you shouldn't self-host it for anything mission critical." Otherwise, how would anyone learn anything?
- jjav 5y ago
  > More likely, they're saying that 99% of people don't know how to self-host, and for 99% of the rest it's not worth the trouble. Certainly way more than 99% of the general population wouldn't know how to self host, but within a techie population like HN, easily ~50% can be capable of doing it if they wanted to. Whether it's worth the effort is a personal decision, but there's a lot of value in owning your own email so I recommend it to anyone who's curious about it and willing to do it. > Also, if you have to ask, then you shouldn't self-host it. We should be encouraging curiousity (a HN value) not stomping on it. If anyone asks, I say go for it. Worst case you'll learn new things, best case now you own your email.
nerdponx 5y ago
It's wild that something as pedestrian as hosting your own email comes with a pile of caveats comparable to those attached to browsing I2P or using cryptocurrency to buy stuff.
- traceroute66 5y ago
  > It's wild that something as pedestrian as hosting your own email comes with a pile of caveats No, it's not "wild". Its just that we're in 2022, not 1997. Long gone are the days of "fire up Sendmail and you're good to go". To those thinking of self-hosting, I would say they should start by understanding modern anti-spam. Understanding modern anti-spam will not only help them with their inbound email, but will also help them understand how to ensure deliverability of their outbound email too.
pera 5y ago
It also depends on the reputation of your neighbours / AS... try to setup an e-mail server with a cheap VPS in DigitalOcean|OVH|Hetzner and even if you kept using the same IP address for 10 years I don't think you will be able to relay to gmail
- cpach 5y ago
  I have a friend who is self-hosting on Linode. All mails from her reach my inbox (Gmail).
- flo123456 5y ago
  I‘ve been doing exactly that for roughly 10 years and never had a problem with Gmail. You just have to set everything up to latest best practices (DKIM etc.). I‘ve even changed IP addresses a couple of times.
  - pera 5y ago
    Which provider do you use? (by the way, I didn't mean that every cheap provider will have issues, prgmr/Tornado for instance works great for me)
  - sam_lowry_ 5y ago
    I self-host for 20+ years, the last 12 years on Hetzner. Did some transactional mailings as well professionally. Not spam, but forum notifications, mailing lists. 2007..2014 were probably the worst. Gmail was chainging often, Microsoft was blocking everyone. I think self-hosting is easier now than 10 years ago.
    - ryandrake 5y ago
      I self-host on Linode, and they occasionally fall into UCEPROTECT level 3 (the ISP-wide blocklist), likely due to a spammer trying to set up business as a Linode client. You can't really do much about ISP-wide blocklists, and honestly mail servers should not aggressively reject E-mail simply because some other rando at the ISP sends spam. I've always had success working with the aggressive mail server admin to get unblocked. Often it's just an E-mail to provider-abuse@provider.com
andrewaylett 5y ago
I'm in a similar boat, but have a slightly different conclusion: if you started 20 years ago, you'll have a much easier time today than if you started six months ago. I think it's also fair to say that personal mail for a small domain is much easier than even a small amount of transactional email and don't even try sending newsletters beyond your friend group. I have run mail off three different IPs over the ~20 years I've been hosting, switching IP address didn't affect me all that much. Another thing to note is that receiving mail is really easy. Sending it is hard, filtering out the spam (and only the spam) from your inbound email is harder.
- jhugo 5y ago
  Spam has become much easier to avoid on inbound mail at some point. I turned off all Bayesian/heuristic based spam filtering around 2015 and now just check SPF and DKIM, and have a fake first MX record. No "Junk" folder, everything that passes the checks goes to the inbox. I get maybe one spam mail every week or so, which I just delete.
  - born2discover 5y ago
    Could you please elaborate on the "..., and have a fake first MX record" ?
    - pferde 5y ago
      Legitimate SMTP servers will try your domain's MX records one by one, in order of priority, until they reach one that accepts the message. Spammers' scripts usually don't bother, they just try the first one and move on to the next address on their list. Of course, this is not 100% reliable, as it's not too difficult for spammers to adapt and improve their scripts. Of course, vast majority of spammers are either not sophisticated enough, or do not care enough to do so, so if you don't mind your incoming mail to be slightly delayed, it's kind of a low-hanging fruit, as it cuts off a huge amount of low-effort spammers.
    - acatton 5y ago
      Not GP, but I think what they meant is having a MX record with a higher priority pointing to an unroutable IP blackhole IN A 240.0.0.1 @ MX 10 blackhole.example.com @ MX 20 mail.example.com
nemothekid 5y ago
You started self hosting before Gmail was a thing. It’s completely likely that Google has had you whitelisted since the inception of gmail when they were far more open. The “reputable IP” is the hardest part of delivering mail reliably; and your post says the equivalent of “just have your dad gift you a reputable IP from the 90s”
- _moof 5y ago
  I've also been hosting since before Gmail was a thing but have since set up new servers with new domains in disreputable subnets, and I haven't had any deliverability issues. If you configure things right (SPF, DKIM) you won't have problems. This idea that self-hosted email is impossible is wildly overblown.
- jhugo 5y ago
  I'd be very surprised if I was on some kind of static whitelist from the early days of Gmail. Such a list, if it exists, would likely be reserved for much higher-volume sending IPs. I've helped others set up self hosting much more recently, and haven't had any reputation problems beyond the early period where the IP has no history. (It is important to find an IP that doesn't have recent bad reputation, but that is fairly easy to do. Unless your host is in the business of hosting spammers most IPs will be clean.) The reality is honestly just that self-hosting mail is not as hard as all the people who don't do it say it is.
  - ipaddr 5y ago
    Google would ignore your data because you are too small? Your ip and those of others who have sent mail to gmail have been recorded. Your reputation score is high. Try a new ip and see how hard it is.
    - jhugo 5y ago
      It's not exactly _hard_ on a new IP, as long as the IP is clean (which is reasonably simple to ensure, as long as your host isn't in the business of hosting spammers). You just have no reputation to start with, so you can't expect perfect deliverability from day one. But after some time (and we're talking weeks-to-months, not years), you'll be fine.
porbelm 5y ago
I agree, I've been hosting my own email for a few years now, using Mailcow on a Linode. With SPF and DKIM properly set up, mail is /usually/ accepted by the receiving end. The only nag is that Microsoft is EXTREMELY strict for their hosted email. It's the only provider that consistently denies recieving mail from my server when the IP range it's on becomes greylisted in UCE-PROTECT -- which happens every so often... Easily solved with getting the MX and backup MX IP's whitelisted there, but I haven't bothered cashing out for that yet...
- jhugo 5y ago
  > when the IP range it's on becomes greylisted in UCE-PROTECT -- which happens every so often This is a common complaint with Linode specifically, but probably fairly common with low-cost virtual server providers in general. It's worth looking into the history of your IP before you start using it to host mail, and if it's feasible, shelling out for a dedicated server (ideally from a provider that doesn't also offer virtual servers, or has enough network separation between them) makes it much less likely that your neighbour is a spammer. Mine's never been on UCE-PROTECT.
_moof 5y ago
Yup, came here to say pretty much that. I've been self-hosting email for decades, first from a box on my home network (back when that was possible) and later from a VPS. It's not nearly as hard as folks make it out to be. At the very least, getting your server marked as spam/blacklisted is not inevitable. Just make sure you aren't an open relay and that you've got properly configured SPF and DKIM records in your DNS. Once that's set up you can pretty much forget about it. I haven't had to touch any of my configs in years. Initial setup takes maybe a day or two if you know your way around Linux or one of the BSDs.
snitch182 5y ago
I have been self hosting my private domains for a couple of years now and spam is not a problem with rspamd and it needs very little resources. Some large hosts just outright blocked me but i always get it unblocked with some assistance of my hoster. So, yes it is fine. I even set up webmail with rainloop. Better than anything once you got it set up right.
baobabKoodaa 5y ago
> If you set everything up right, and choose the host for your mail server carefully, and never change IP, after a fairly short time you won't have much problem with being marked as spam. No more so than with any other email host. This is untrue. If you are the only person using your email server, your volume will be so low that the big providers (Gmail, Outlook, etc.) won't track your reputation. So, ironically, being a low-volume sender means your email will be constantly classified as spam. I speak from experience: https://www.attejuvonen.fi/dont-send-email-from-your-own-server/ https://www.attejuvonen.fi/dont-send-email-from-your-own-ser...
- jhugo 5y ago
  "This is untrue" and yet I and others in this thread have been doing this for a long time without encountering the issue that you so confidently claim exists. My email server is used by two people. Reputation is tracked by all the big providers, as evidenced by a) my email not being classified as spam, and b) them showing reputation of my domains in their various reputation dashboards. "Those who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those that are doing it."
  - baobabKoodaa 5y ago
    > "This is untrue" and yet I and others in this thread have been doing this for a long time without encountering the issue that you so confidently claim exists. When you make a claim that supposedly applies to all people, a single counterpoint is sufficient to disprove the claim. It's as if you had said "all rabbits are black", then I showed you a white rabbit to counter that not all rabbits are black, and you come back with "look, I have a black rabbit here". How does that make sense to you? > them showing reputation of my domains in their various reputation dashboards. I never got access to their dashboards because my email volume was so low. If you somehow did, good for you. > "Those who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those that are doing it." I'm not "interrupting you from doing it". I'm interrupting you from giving bad advice to OTHER people.
    - jhugo 5y ago
notacoward 5y ago
> probably have little relevant experience Or maybe they have 10x the experience you do, but it was different experience for reasons beyond their control. Don't over-generalize from a sample of one. That's hubris.
- jhugo 5y ago
  That's what the word relevant means in relevant experience.
  - notacoward 5y ago
    OK, then. They might have 10x the relevant experience that you do, but the outcomes were still different for reasons beyond their control. Better? Your scattershot insult was still full of hubris.
    - jhugo 5y ago
      No, that's not better. If the outcomes were different, that's for reasons within their control. That's the whole point of this entire thread! There is no voodoo in self-hosting mail! You either get everything right (due diligence of your provider and the IPs they're giving you, configuration of your mail server, not sending spam, monitoring your reputation) and your mail is delivered, or you don't and it isn't. That's it. Getting everything right, and knowing what you have to get right, comes with experience.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
redox99 5y ago
> If you set everything up right, You don't even need to set everything right. Up until very recently (months), I was sending emails from a few of my servers, and I had NOTHING set right. As in, I was sending from IP addresses that were never mentioned on my DNS, no PTR no SPF no DKIM no nothing. Just good old "here's an email from this address, trust me I actually own that address and it's legit". And it worked just fine. Surely just a reputation thing, as I had been doing this for over a decade, and all emails were very important (password recovery, order details, etc), no newsletter or anything. I recently replaced all that with zoho because I wanted something a bit more secure and didn't want to configure it myself.
systemvoltage 5y ago
May be you've been grandfathered into a white list when things weren't so sophistcated 20 years ago? Have you tried setting up a brand new email server with a fresh IP from say, Digital Ocean or AWS?
- jhugo 5y ago
  I've helped friends set up mail servers fairly often, and they've had the same experience. But I wouldn't recommend DO (especially) nor AWS for this. I'd recommend a smaller, tech-savvy hosting provider that has been around for a long time, who has no tolerance of abuse on their network, who is easy to communicate with directly (no paying for 'Business Support' just to talk to a clueful person), and ideally who mostly rents dedicated servers / colo rather than cheap virtual servers.
Biganon 5y ago
Self hosting my emails, grade of 100/100 on mail-tester, I'm on none of the dozens of blacklists I've queried... and Microsoft marks every single one of my emails as spam. Just because you're lucky doesn't mean other people are "unexperienced". I don't know what experience has to do with it tbh. Maybe if you have experience working for Microsoft and you can contact the right people there...
- jhugo 5y ago
  Have you contacted Sender Support at Microsoft? They're very responsive and if your mail activity is legit they'll certainly help you solve the issue. Also make sure you set up the SNDS dashboard so you can view your IP reputation: https://sendersupport.olc.protection.outlook.com/snds/index.aspx https://sendersupport.olc.protection.outlook.com/snds/index.... In my experience the difference in outcomes that people have with self-hosting mail are largely down to, from most important to least, (1) the nature of the mail they are sending, (2) their choice of hosting provider, and (3) the correctness of their mail server setup. It sounds like you've got (3) sorted, so maybe (1) or (2) are relevant here.
loup-vaillant 5y ago
I did the same for like 10 years, and got similar results… …except when Hotmail decided my entire IP block was barred from sending emails to them. Happened several times, I always had to wait a few days for my emails to stop bouncing. In my experience it mostly works, but it’s never reliable.

by jhugo 5y ago

Noughmad 5y ago

> As is so often the case, the people that say you should never do it probably have little relevant experience, they are just repeating something they heard. More likely, they're saying that 99% of people don't know how to self-host, and for 99% of the rest it's not worth the trouble. Also, if you have to ask, then you shouldn't self-host it.

kijin 5y ago
People who have been hosting their own email for decades like GP probably built up a solid reputation for their domain and IP before spam filtering became such a kafkaesque business and IPv4 blocks became so fragmented. If you start self-hosting now, you should be prepared to lose quite a few emails randomly for the first X months while everyone else tries to figure out whether you're legit or not. Though I would encourage anyone who can to try to self-host at least some part of their email infrastructure, even if just for the learning experience, I would also recommend that they avoid using self-hosted email for anything business-critical until they're sure they've got the hang of it.
- tragictrash 5y ago
  Don't forget about attacks. If you lose control of that domain you are pwnd.
  - jhugo 5y ago
    I'll definitely take that (which is largely under my control) over e.g. Google deciding that I've done something wrong one day and cutting off my email.
    - tragictrash 5y ago
      I agree with your sentiment, but It's not under your control. It's under the registrar's control. I'd argue registrars are way more prone to social engineering attacks than google is. I also don't use Google as my email provider though.
      - jhugo 5y ago
        The choice of registrar is under my control, though. Also, little-known fact: if you register a UK company (probably more practical if you already have one, but the effort is not actually that big), you can register .uk domains directly with Nominet, the UK registry, by setting yourself up as a self-managed registrar. It doesn't cost anything (beyond the cost of the domain name) and is very easy. I'd love to know if there are any other registries that allow something similar.
        tragictrash 5y ago
        I'm in the USA and would totally bite the bullet and do something like that, if possible
        FredPret 5y ago
        Man, this is really cool. Email is central to online identity and sounds like you have more control over yours than anyone I’ve heard of.
- rhn_mk1 5y ago
  > you should be prepared to lose quite a few emails randomly for the first X months while everyone else tries to figure out whether you're legit or not And then prepared to lose quite a few emails consistently for the next 10 years when some decide you're not legit. Source: I self-host.
- kuschku 5y ago
  Tip: Start with a solid SPF, DKIM, DMARC policy and register for microsoft, yahoo, etc.’s admin tools and add your domain to google’s webmaster and postmaster tools. (Yes, even if Google postmaster won’t show you anything yet) Use mail-tester.com or similar tools to ensure everything is configured correctly. And then just start sending. As long as your volume grows slowly over the first few months, you’ll get basically no rejects.
  - kijin 5y ago
    Yep, it takes patience and lots of trial and error to build and maintain a reliable email server, unlike an HTTP server or Minecraft server which you can fire up with a script any time you want. Probably explains why so few people do it successfully.
  - Arch-TK 5y ago
    What is the yahoo version of SNDS (the microsoft thing) called?
  - bityard 5y ago
    I know about the Google postmaster tools but I'm coming up blank finding anything about Microsoft and Yahoo. Do you (or anyone else) have links to these?
    - teddyh 5y ago
      Microsoft: https://sendersupport.olc.protection.outlook.com/snds/index.aspx https://sendersupport.olc.protection.outlook.com/snds/index....
    - kuschku 5y ago
      Yahoo has merged theirs with AOL (kinda) and currently they only seem to offer https://senders.yahooinc.com/contact/#complaint-feedback-loop https://senders.yahooinc.com/contact/#complaint-feedback-loo...
tinsmith 5y ago
"If you have to ask, you shouldn't be doing it," said the tired old King of Gatekeeping. For a second, I thought I was on Stackoverflow. If you aren't starting by asking questions about the possibilities or limitations of a system you're about to work in, then you aren't starting properly.
- Noughmad 5y ago
  Except Google and StackOverflow exist now. You start by searching and reading tutorials, not by asking other people.
- JohnWhigham 5y ago
  That adage exists because those who really want to do it won't be asking to be spoonfed and will instead start doing the research themselves.
  - eddieroger 5y ago
    For perspective, some may perceive doing research as being spoon-fed. Sometimes, you don't know where to start and need a hand. At one point, I didn't know how to turn on a computer, and now I'm a software engineer.
    - ehutch79 5y ago
      The area of 'i barely know how to keep a server running' is a problem for everyone else on the internet as your mail server starts relaying a deluge spam and phishing emails
  - tinsmith 5y ago
    I get why it exists, but we also have to be honest with ourselves and admit that there is a massive problem in communicating without assumption of prior knowledge/experience. The tech world is particularly guilty of this, with veterans having forgotten that there was a time when they didn't know what they know, and lacking any patience to adequately help those seeking understanding. To add to the issue, the Internet proper is so noisy with partial or broken information that the task of finding the correct information is far more daunting than it was 20 years ago when I started learning. We need to give newcomers a break and answer their questions well, and discuss to promote understanding, instead of swatting at them with our canes. The only way knowledge passes to the next generation of thinkers and tinkers is if we fuel that curiousity.
sosborn 5y ago
I would amend this to say, "If you have to ask, then you shouldn't self-host it for anything mission critical." Otherwise, how would anyone learn anything?
jjav 5y ago
> More likely, they're saying that 99% of people don't know how to self-host, and for 99% of the rest it's not worth the trouble. Certainly way more than 99% of the general population wouldn't know how to self host, but within a techie population like HN, easily ~50% can be capable of doing it if they wanted to. Whether it's worth the effort is a personal decision, but there's a lot of value in owning your own email so I recommend it to anyone who's curious about it and willing to do it. > Also, if you have to ask, then you shouldn't self-host it. We should be encouraging curiousity (a HN value) not stomping on it. If anyone asks, I say go for it. Worst case you'll learn new things, best case now you own your email.

nerdponx 5y ago

It's wild that something as pedestrian as hosting your own email comes with a pile of caveats comparable to those attached to browsing I2P or using cryptocurrency to buy stuff.

traceroute66 5y ago
> It's wild that something as pedestrian as hosting your own email comes with a pile of caveats No, it's not "wild". Its just that we're in 2022, not 1997. Long gone are the days of "fire up Sendmail and you're good to go". To those thinking of self-hosting, I would say they should start by understanding modern anti-spam. Understanding modern anti-spam will not only help them with their inbound email, but will also help them understand how to ensure deliverability of their outbound email too.

pera 5y ago

It also depends on the reputation of your neighbours / AS... try to setup an e-mail server with a cheap VPS in DigitalOcean|OVH|Hetzner and even if you kept using the same IP address for 10 years I don't think you will be able to relay to gmail

cpach 5y ago
I have a friend who is self-hosting on Linode. All mails from her reach my inbox (Gmail).
flo123456 5y ago
I‘ve been doing exactly that for roughly 10 years and never had a problem with Gmail. You just have to set everything up to latest best practices (DKIM etc.). I‘ve even changed IP addresses a couple of times.
- pera 5y ago
  Which provider do you use? (by the way, I didn't mean that every cheap provider will have issues, prgmr/Tornado for instance works great for me)
- sam_lowry_ 5y ago
  I self-host for 20+ years, the last 12 years on Hetzner. Did some transactional mailings as well professionally. Not spam, but forum notifications, mailing lists. 2007..2014 were probably the worst. Gmail was chainging often, Microsoft was blocking everyone. I think self-hosting is easier now than 10 years ago.
  - ryandrake 5y ago
    I self-host on Linode, and they occasionally fall into UCEPROTECT level 3 (the ISP-wide blocklist), likely due to a spammer trying to set up business as a Linode client. You can't really do much about ISP-wide blocklists, and honestly mail servers should not aggressively reject E-mail simply because some other rando at the ISP sends spam. I've always had success working with the aggressive mail server admin to get unblocked. Often it's just an E-mail to provider-abuse@provider.com

andrewaylett 5y ago

I'm in a similar boat, but have a slightly different conclusion: if you started 20 years ago, you'll have a much easier time today than if you started six months ago. I think it's also fair to say that personal mail for a small domain is much easier than even a small amount of transactional email and don't even try sending newsletters beyond your friend group. I have run mail off three different IPs over the ~20 years I've been hosting, switching IP address didn't affect me all that much. Another thing to note is that receiving mail is really easy. Sending it is hard, filtering out the spam (and only the spam) from your inbound email is harder.

jhugo 5y ago
Spam has become much easier to avoid on inbound mail at some point. I turned off all Bayesian/heuristic based spam filtering around 2015 and now just check SPF and DKIM, and have a fake first MX record. No "Junk" folder, everything that passes the checks goes to the inbox. I get maybe one spam mail every week or so, which I just delete.
- born2discover 5y ago
  Could you please elaborate on the "..., and have a fake first MX record" ?
  - pferde 5y ago
    Legitimate SMTP servers will try your domain's MX records one by one, in order of priority, until they reach one that accepts the message. Spammers' scripts usually don't bother, they just try the first one and move on to the next address on their list. Of course, this is not 100% reliable, as it's not too difficult for spammers to adapt and improve their scripts. Of course, vast majority of spammers are either not sophisticated enough, or do not care enough to do so, so if you don't mind your incoming mail to be slightly delayed, it's kind of a low-hanging fruit, as it cuts off a huge amount of low-effort spammers.
  - acatton 5y ago
    Not GP, but I think what they meant is having a MX record with a higher priority pointing to an unroutable IP blackhole IN A 240.0.0.1 @ MX 10 blackhole.example.com @ MX 20 mail.example.com

nemothekid 5y ago

You started self hosting before Gmail was a thing. It’s completely likely that Google has had you whitelisted since the inception of gmail when they were far more open. The “reputable IP” is the hardest part of delivering mail reliably; and your post says the equivalent of “just have your dad gift you a reputable IP from the 90s”

_moof 5y ago
I've also been hosting since before Gmail was a thing but have since set up new servers with new domains in disreputable subnets, and I haven't had any deliverability issues. If you configure things right (SPF, DKIM) you won't have problems. This idea that self-hosted email is impossible is wildly overblown.
jhugo 5y ago
I'd be very surprised if I was on some kind of static whitelist from the early days of Gmail. Such a list, if it exists, would likely be reserved for much higher-volume sending IPs. I've helped others set up self hosting much more recently, and haven't had any reputation problems beyond the early period where the IP has no history. (It is important to find an IP that doesn't have recent bad reputation, but that is fairly easy to do. Unless your host is in the business of hosting spammers most IPs will be clean.) The reality is honestly just that self-hosting mail is not as hard as all the people who don't do it say it is.
- ipaddr 5y ago
  Google would ignore your data because you are too small? Your ip and those of others who have sent mail to gmail have been recorded. Your reputation score is high. Try a new ip and see how hard it is.
  - jhugo 5y ago
    It's not exactly _hard_ on a new IP, as long as the IP is clean (which is reasonably simple to ensure, as long as your host isn't in the business of hosting spammers). You just have no reputation to start with, so you can't expect perfect deliverability from day one. But after some time (and we're talking weeks-to-months, not years), you'll be fine.

porbelm 5y ago

I agree, I've been hosting my own email for a few years now, using Mailcow on a Linode. With SPF and DKIM properly set up, mail is /usually/ accepted by the receiving end. The only nag is that Microsoft is EXTREMELY strict for their hosted email. It's the only provider that consistently denies recieving mail from my server when the IP range it's on becomes greylisted in UCE-PROTECT -- which happens every so often... Easily solved with getting the MX and backup MX IP's whitelisted there, but I haven't bothered cashing out for that yet...

jhugo 5y ago
> when the IP range it's on becomes greylisted in UCE-PROTECT -- which happens every so often This is a common complaint with Linode specifically, but probably fairly common with low-cost virtual server providers in general. It's worth looking into the history of your IP before you start using it to host mail, and if it's feasible, shelling out for a dedicated server (ideally from a provider that doesn't also offer virtual servers, or has enough network separation between them) makes it much less likely that your neighbour is a spammer. Mine's never been on UCE-PROTECT.

_moof 5y ago

Yup, came here to say pretty much that. I've been self-hosting email for decades, first from a box on my home network (back when that was possible) and later from a VPS. It's not nearly as hard as folks make it out to be. At the very least, getting your server marked as spam/blacklisted is not inevitable. Just make sure you aren't an open relay and that you've got properly configured SPF and DKIM records in your DNS. Once that's set up you can pretty much forget about it. I haven't had to touch any of my configs in years. Initial setup takes maybe a day or two if you know your way around Linux or one of the BSDs.

snitch182 5y ago

I have been self hosting my private domains for a couple of years now and spam is not a problem with rspamd and it needs very little resources. Some large hosts just outright blocked me but i always get it unblocked with some assistance of my hoster. So, yes it is fine. I even set up webmail with rainloop. Better than anything once you got it set up right.

baobabKoodaa 5y ago

> If you set everything up right, and choose the host for your mail server carefully, and never change IP, after a fairly short time you won't have much problem with being marked as spam. No more so than with any other email host. This is untrue. If you are the only person using your email server, your volume will be so low that the big providers (Gmail, Outlook, etc.) won't track your reputation. So, ironically, being a low-volume sender means your email will be constantly classified as spam. I speak from experience: https://www.attejuvonen.fi/dont-send-email-from-your-own-server/ https://www.attejuvonen.fi/dont-send-email-from-your-own-ser...

jhugo 5y ago
"This is untrue" and yet I and others in this thread have been doing this for a long time without encountering the issue that you so confidently claim exists. My email server is used by two people. Reputation is tracked by all the big providers, as evidenced by a) my email not being classified as spam, and b) them showing reputation of my domains in their various reputation dashboards. "Those who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those that are doing it."
- baobabKoodaa 5y ago
  > "This is untrue" and yet I and others in this thread have been doing this for a long time without encountering the issue that you so confidently claim exists. When you make a claim that supposedly applies to all people, a single counterpoint is sufficient to disprove the claim. It's as if you had said "all rabbits are black", then I showed you a white rabbit to counter that not all rabbits are black, and you come back with "look, I have a black rabbit here". How does that make sense to you? > them showing reputation of my domains in their various reputation dashboards. I never got access to their dashboards because my email volume was so low. If you somehow did, good for you. > "Those who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those that are doing it." I'm not "interrupting you from doing it". I'm interrupting you from giving bad advice to OTHER people.
  - jhugo 5y ago

notacoward 5y ago

> probably have little relevant experience Or maybe they have 10x the experience you do, but it was different experience for reasons beyond their control. Don't over-generalize from a sample of one. That's hubris.

jhugo 5y ago
That's what the word relevant means in relevant experience.
- notacoward 5y ago
  OK, then. They might have 10x the relevant experience that you do, but the outcomes were still different for reasons beyond their control. Better? Your scattershot insult was still full of hubris.
  - jhugo 5y ago
    No, that's not better. If the outcomes were different, that's for reasons within their control. That's the whole point of this entire thread! There is no voodoo in self-hosting mail! You either get everything right (due diligence of your provider and the IPs they're giving you, configuration of your mail server, not sending spam, monitoring your reputation) and your mail is delivered, or you don't and it isn't. That's it. Getting everything right, and knowing what you have to get right, comes with experience.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]

redox99 5y ago

> If you set everything up right, You don't even need to set everything right. Up until very recently (months), I was sending emails from a few of my servers, and I had NOTHING set right. As in, I was sending from IP addresses that were never mentioned on my DNS, no PTR no SPF no DKIM no nothing. Just good old "here's an email from this address, trust me I actually own that address and it's legit". And it worked just fine. Surely just a reputation thing, as I had been doing this for over a decade, and all emails were very important (password recovery, order details, etc), no newsletter or anything. I recently replaced all that with zoho because I wanted something a bit more secure and didn't want to configure it myself.

systemvoltage 5y ago

May be you've been grandfathered into a white list when things weren't so sophistcated 20 years ago? Have you tried setting up a brand new email server with a fresh IP from say, Digital Ocean or AWS?

jhugo 5y ago
I've helped friends set up mail servers fairly often, and they've had the same experience. But I wouldn't recommend DO (especially) nor AWS for this. I'd recommend a smaller, tech-savvy hosting provider that has been around for a long time, who has no tolerance of abuse on their network, who is easy to communicate with directly (no paying for 'Business Support' just to talk to a clueful person), and ideally who mostly rents dedicated servers / colo rather than cheap virtual servers.

Biganon 5y ago

Self hosting my emails, grade of 100/100 on mail-tester, I'm on none of the dozens of blacklists I've queried... and Microsoft marks every single one of my emails as spam. Just because you're lucky doesn't mean other people are "unexperienced". I don't know what experience has to do with it tbh. Maybe if you have experience working for Microsoft and you can contact the right people there...

jhugo 5y ago
Have you contacted Sender Support at Microsoft? They're very responsive and if your mail activity is legit they'll certainly help you solve the issue. Also make sure you set up the SNDS dashboard so you can view your IP reputation: https://sendersupport.olc.protection.outlook.com/snds/index.aspx https://sendersupport.olc.protection.outlook.com/snds/index.... In my experience the difference in outcomes that people have with self-hosting mail are largely down to, from most important to least, (1) the nature of the mail they are sending, (2) their choice of hosting provider, and (3) the correctness of their mail server setup. It sounds like you've got (3) sorted, so maybe (1) or (2) are relevant here.

loup-vaillant 5y ago

I did the same for like 10 years, and got similar results… …except when Hotmail decided my entire IP block was barred from sending emails to them. Happened several times, I always had to wait a few days for my emails to stop bouncing. In my experience it mostly works, but it’s never reliable.