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Comments: 1. To the title: I'm confident there are good genes that cause joy. I'm certain there are bad genes that cause anti-joy. 2. The actual article talk

Comments: 1. To the title: I'm confident there are good genes that cause joy. I'm certain there are bad genes that cause anti-joy. 2. The actual article talks about relationships with people, and not about happiness per se. (For example, what about a hermit who constantly derives joy from listening to classical music?) Bad title. 3. Most of what is stated is a correlation, and it seems there are obvious alternative explanations, such as the opposite-direction causality: if your health problems get bad enough, that may interfere with your relationships. For example: "Part of a study found that people who had happy marriages in their 80s reported that their moods didn’t suffer even on the days when they had more physical pain. Those who had unhappy marriages felt both more emotional and physical pain." Maybe those who feel worse physical pain are more likely to snap at their spouse, and/or less likely to do the things that make their spouse feel loved. I mean, it's plausible that the thesis is correct, but the article seems to overstate the certainty of the evidence.

bpodgursky 4y ago
Yes, it is blindingly obvious that people are born with different happiness set-points, and this is primarily genetic, if you look at families. Circumstances and life adjust this up and down... but some people are just innately happy and other people are innately unhappy, and adjust to their set-point quickly after a life change.
- showerst 4y ago
  Are we sure that is "blindingly obvious"? I think the whole point of studies like this to try to tease out hints at what parts of it are genetic vs circumstance vs choices. FWIW I think that the genetic component of 'innately happy' is quite small, as I've known relatively few dirt poor people who were happy anyway, and relatively more carefree upper class folks. Though of course it's possible it's still genetic and just caused economic sorting higher up the tree, I suppose.
- oneoff786 4y ago
  So if you see a person unhappy in poverty it’s because of their genetics?
  - anshorei 4y ago
    I think he means the inverse: for people able to find joy despite adverse circumstances. More importantly, I would say, it's likely innate to us that we are unhappy without adverse circumstances. I.e. for there to be brightness there needs to be darkness.
    - oneoff786 4y ago
      He claimed it was the primary effect. Which is absurd. And claimed it was easily observed by family inheritance? That’s obviously wrong.
- circlefavshape 4y ago
  There's plenty of research about events (e.g. unemployment or bereavement) affecting people's happiness long-term if you care to look
  - dymk 4y ago
    There's plenty of research counter to that, showing that regardless of negative or positive events happening in one's life, people tend back towards the same happiness they were at after a few years.
    - circlefavshape 4y ago
      I wouldn't say it "counters" it, rather it very much depends on the events and/or circumstances. Winning the lottery won't make you happy. Losing your job and failing to get another one will probably make you sad. Traumatic events can be very hard to get over. Funny enough the only example I've found of an "event" having a long term positive effect is cosmetic surgery
      - robocat 4y ago
        > long term positive effect is cosmetic surgery Any links? It isn't clear whether you are talking about cosmetic surgery to mitigate an obvious issue (for example, correcting a hair lip or removing a disfiguring facial birthmark), as compared to cosmetic beauty enhancements (nose job or tummy tuck). I would guess "enhancements" have a very strong sampling bias, because of a strong correlations with disposable income, belonging to certain social groups, and the type of person that prioritises surgery over other expenses. Adjusting to remove bias would be problematic? I also suspect that there would be an inherent bias in reported studies, because the cosmetic surgery industry will fund and publish results that benefit the industry?
        circlefavshape 4y ago
        "Other researchers have investigated the effects of life events which can cause medium term and perhaps permanent change in set points. These events include the unexpected death of a child (Wortman & Silver, 1987), repeated spells of unemployment which have a ‘scarring effect’ (Clark et al, 2004), becoming widowed and perhaps getting married (Lucas et al, 2003). Amusingly, the only favourable or positive ‘event’ unambiguously shown to enhance long term subjective well being seems to be cosmetic surgery (Wengle, 1986; Loewenstein & Frederick, 1999)" Copy-pasted from a 2006 paper by Bruce Headey I had lying around. I haven't looked into this in a few years but you might be able chase those refs down if you're interested I think it's astounding that people take happiness-set-point theory so literally. Has everyone here been uniformly happy/miserable throughout their life? I certainly haven't - when things have been bad I've been miserable, when things have been good I've been happy
circlefavshape 4y ago
> For example, what about a hermit who constantly derives joy from listening to classical music? Something you just cooked up out of your imagination is not a real counter-example
- waterhouse 4y ago
  Fine, how about someone who has little or no social life but derives joy from playing video games and other solitary pursuits, and also gets enough exercise (or at least as much as the average person who has good relationships)? I suspect there are some people on this forum who are like that, and more people who might become that if they thought it was the right idea. Edit: The point is that the title implies that you'd get the significant health benefits just by experiencing joy, but the article says that you need good social relationships, so, if we believed the article, the title would misdirect people.
  - abirch 4y ago
    Most of my gamer friends, game with real people. Not sure if there are statistics on this or not. For what it's worth this is a correlation study and not causal. I'm sure there are some loners out there that are very happy, but when I've had turbulent times in my life, it was my friends who helped me.
    - yaacov 4y ago
      Well if there’s a guy who’s sitting alone in his room all day playing games on his own how would you get to know him?
      - abirch 4y ago
        True but my nephew is a gamer and has his online crew as well. So there's a guy who I know to random genetics. Here's this survey as well: https://www.statista.com/statistics/1235068/online-gaming-social-aspects/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1235068/online-gaming-so...
  - 4y ago
fionaellie 4y ago
Even more obvious: Good relationships provide for a higher level of care and support. When health trouble arises, a devoted partner's presence (to identify issues and encourage action), care (when self-care isn't possible), and advocacy (within our challenging healthcare system) can make all the difference in the world.
giantg2 4y ago
On number 1, there seems to be some evidence that people with higher IQs are less likely to be happy.
- waterhouse 4y ago
  There is reason to expect that with today's educational practices; the effect, funnily enough, does manifest partly through social relationships: https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/EJ746290.pdf https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/EJ746290.pdf > A 20-year longitudinal study has traced the academic, social, and emotional development of 60 young Australians with IQs of 160 and above. Significant differences have been noted in the young people’s educational status and direction, life satisfaction, social relationships, and self-esteem as a function of the degree of academic acceleration their schools permitted them in childhood and adolescence. > The considerable majority of young people who have been radically accelerated [skipped 3+ years of K-12], or who accelerated by 2 years, report high degrees of life satisfaction, have taken research degrees at leading universities, have professional careers, and report facilitative social and love relationships. Young people of equal abilities who accelerated by only 1 year or who have not been permitted acceleration have tended to enter less academically rigorous college courses, report lower levels of life satisfaction, and in many cases, experience significant difficulties with socialization. > I believe that all the young people in this study would have benefited greatly, both academically and socially, from grade advancement, while the considerable majority would have benefited from radical acceleration. Sadly, only 17 were radically accelerated, and indeed, the majority (33 of the 60) were retained with age peers for the duration of their schooling. > Several of the nonaccelerands have serious and ongoing problems with social relationships. These young people find it very difficult to sustain friendships because having been, to a large extent, socially isolated at school, they have had much less practice in their formative years in developing and maintaining social relationships. Six have had counseling. Of these, two have been treated for severe depression.
  - AlanYx 4y ago
    That's a fascinating paper -- thanks for sharing it.
- 4y ago

bpodgursky 4y ago

Yes, it is blindingly obvious that people are born with different happiness set-points, and this is primarily genetic, if you look at families. Circumstances and life adjust this up and down... but some people are just innately happy and other people are innately unhappy, and adjust to their set-point quickly after a life change.

showerst 4y ago
Are we sure that is "blindingly obvious"? I think the whole point of studies like this to try to tease out hints at what parts of it are genetic vs circumstance vs choices. FWIW I think that the genetic component of 'innately happy' is quite small, as I've known relatively few dirt poor people who were happy anyway, and relatively more carefree upper class folks. Though of course it's possible it's still genetic and just caused economic sorting higher up the tree, I suppose.
oneoff786 4y ago
So if you see a person unhappy in poverty it’s because of their genetics?
- anshorei 4y ago
  I think he means the inverse: for people able to find joy despite adverse circumstances. More importantly, I would say, it's likely innate to us that we are unhappy without adverse circumstances. I.e. for there to be brightness there needs to be darkness.
  - oneoff786 4y ago
    He claimed it was the primary effect. Which is absurd. And claimed it was easily observed by family inheritance? That’s obviously wrong.
circlefavshape 4y ago
There's plenty of research about events (e.g. unemployment or bereavement) affecting people's happiness long-term if you care to look
- dymk 4y ago
  There's plenty of research counter to that, showing that regardless of negative or positive events happening in one's life, people tend back towards the same happiness they were at after a few years.
  - circlefavshape 4y ago
    I wouldn't say it "counters" it, rather it very much depends on the events and/or circumstances. Winning the lottery won't make you happy. Losing your job and failing to get another one will probably make you sad. Traumatic events can be very hard to get over. Funny enough the only example I've found of an "event" having a long term positive effect is cosmetic surgery
    - robocat 4y ago
      > long term positive effect is cosmetic surgery Any links? It isn't clear whether you are talking about cosmetic surgery to mitigate an obvious issue (for example, correcting a hair lip or removing a disfiguring facial birthmark), as compared to cosmetic beauty enhancements (nose job or tummy tuck). I would guess "enhancements" have a very strong sampling bias, because of a strong correlations with disposable income, belonging to certain social groups, and the type of person that prioritises surgery over other expenses. Adjusting to remove bias would be problematic? I also suspect that there would be an inherent bias in reported studies, because the cosmetic surgery industry will fund and publish results that benefit the industry?
      - circlefavshape 4y ago
        "Other researchers have investigated the effects of life events which can cause medium term and perhaps permanent change in set points. These events include the unexpected death of a child (Wortman & Silver, 1987), repeated spells of unemployment which have a ‘scarring effect’ (Clark et al, 2004), becoming widowed and perhaps getting married (Lucas et al, 2003). Amusingly, the only favourable or positive ‘event’ unambiguously shown to enhance long term subjective well being seems to be cosmetic surgery (Wengle, 1986; Loewenstein & Frederick, 1999)" Copy-pasted from a 2006 paper by Bruce Headey I had lying around. I haven't looked into this in a few years but you might be able chase those refs down if you're interested I think it's astounding that people take happiness-set-point theory so literally. Has everyone here been uniformly happy/miserable throughout their life? I certainly haven't - when things have been bad I've been miserable, when things have been good I've been happy

circlefavshape 4y ago

> For example, what about a hermit who constantly derives joy from listening to classical music? Something you just cooked up out of your imagination is not a real counter-example

waterhouse 4y ago
Fine, how about someone who has little or no social life but derives joy from playing video games and other solitary pursuits, and also gets enough exercise (or at least as much as the average person who has good relationships)? I suspect there are some people on this forum who are like that, and more people who might become that if they thought it was the right idea. Edit: The point is that the title implies that you'd get the significant health benefits just by experiencing joy, but the article says that you need good social relationships, so, if we believed the article, the title would misdirect people.
- abirch 4y ago
  Most of my gamer friends, game with real people. Not sure if there are statistics on this or not. For what it's worth this is a correlation study and not causal. I'm sure there are some loners out there that are very happy, but when I've had turbulent times in my life, it was my friends who helped me.
  - yaacov 4y ago
    Well if there’s a guy who’s sitting alone in his room all day playing games on his own how would you get to know him?
    - abirch 4y ago
      True but my nephew is a gamer and has his online crew as well. So there's a guy who I know to random genetics. Here's this survey as well: https://www.statista.com/statistics/1235068/online-gaming-social-aspects/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1235068/online-gaming-so...
- 4y ago

fionaellie 4y ago

Even more obvious: Good relationships provide for a higher level of care and support. When health trouble arises, a devoted partner's presence (to identify issues and encourage action), care (when self-care isn't possible), and advocacy (within our challenging healthcare system) can make all the difference in the world.

giantg2 4y ago

On number 1, there seems to be some evidence that people with higher IQs are less likely to be happy.

waterhouse 4y ago
There is reason to expect that with today's educational practices; the effect, funnily enough, does manifest partly through social relationships: https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/EJ746290.pdf https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/EJ746290.pdf > A 20-year longitudinal study has traced the academic, social, and emotional development of 60 young Australians with IQs of 160 and above. Significant differences have been noted in the young people’s educational status and direction, life satisfaction, social relationships, and self-esteem as a function of the degree of academic acceleration their schools permitted them in childhood and adolescence. > The considerable majority of young people who have been radically accelerated [skipped 3+ years of K-12], or who accelerated by 2 years, report high degrees of life satisfaction, have taken research degrees at leading universities, have professional careers, and report facilitative social and love relationships. Young people of equal abilities who accelerated by only 1 year or who have not been permitted acceleration have tended to enter less academically rigorous college courses, report lower levels of life satisfaction, and in many cases, experience significant difficulties with socialization. > I believe that all the young people in this study would have benefited greatly, both academically and socially, from grade advancement, while the considerable majority would have benefited from radical acceleration. Sadly, only 17 were radically accelerated, and indeed, the majority (33 of the 60) were retained with age peers for the duration of their schooling. > Several of the nonaccelerands have serious and ongoing problems with social relationships. These young people find it very difficult to sustain friendships because having been, to a large extent, socially isolated at school, they have had much less practice in their formative years in developing and maintaining social relationships. Six have had counseling. Of these, two have been treated for severe depression.
- AlanYx 4y ago
  That's a fascinating paper -- thanks for sharing it.
4y ago