15 ms·
Nukes, nubs and coners: The unique social hierarchy aboard a nuclear submarine
- roomey 5y agoI gotta ask, I'm a bit of a submarine novel buff... Could I get submarine book recommendations please!! Bewarned however, I've read (listened) to a good few already. ;)
- mardifoufs 5y agoThe most accurate, currently used ICBMs can have a CEP ranging from 10 to 130 meters so they can probably be used that way. Most ICBMs also have a configurable "detonation" height, meaning they can probably be set low enough to severely damage a nuclear plant reactor containment building. Not sure if they are powerful enough to vaporize the fuel rods though. But as you said, at that point, it wouldn't really matter anymore.
- sciurus 5y agoDid you reply to the right comment?
- gavanm 5y agoI read quite a few of Patrick Robinson's submarine related fiction. It gets a bit tiring towards the later books, but I recall the earlier ones were quite good. https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/8979.Patrick_Robinson https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/8979.Patrick_Robinson There's always the classic Hunt for Red October.
- subleq 5y agoJoe Buff's Jeffrey Fuller series starting with Deep Sound Channel.
- ColinWright 5y agoYou must have read "The Hunt for Red October". I'm told by ex-(Submarine Commander)s and ex-submariners that it's surprisingly accurate, and one even said that it's used in training. If you read it carefully enough you can plot the positions of the boats throughout. Definitely better than the film, although the film is excellent.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- uwagar 5y agono room for women here?
- MurMan 5y agoFormer EO here. Every group on the boats gets an unofficial name. My favorite was the A-ganger's, the guys that took care of all the mechanical stuff that no one else wanted like the sanitary tanks: Turd Ranchers. Still makes me laugh ...
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- rdtwo 5y agoInteresting but seems absolutely dismal way to spend a decade
- ColinWright 5y agoEasy response ... if that's how you feel, don't do it. I know/knew several ex-submariners. For them it was an absolutely fascinating job. Of course it won't suit everyone, and most people absolutely should not do it, but for them it was a great way to spend a decade or two.
- hansthehorse 5y agoI found that once underway after the first week passes staying out for 6 more months or 6 more days doesn't matter, it feels the same. Normal time stops and is now measured in watch rotations, preventive maintenance schedules and off time. The hardest thing for me was the complete lack of privacy. You are never alone.
- LeifCarrotson 5y agoI know a current submariner, she's 5 years into a 6-year minimum commitment and hates it. Unfortunately, once you're at the point where you can experience whether it will suit you or not, it's too late to change your mind: the Navy owns you.
- ummwhat 5y agoI guess she's hit a new low.
- kevinskii 5y agoI'm a former U.S. submariner. Probably 90% of my shipmates who had served at least 3 years would have said the same thing. They hated the Navy, hated sea duty, hated all of it. And then towards the end of their commitment, with a several thousand dollar re-enlistment bonus on the table, most of them would sign up for another 6 years. The bonus would usually be blown in a week on a new vehicle.
- TehShrike 5y agoIf you found this post at all interesting you will enjoy Destin's series on Smarter Every Day spending time on a US fast attack submarine talking to everyone and poking at lots of weird corners: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5d6SEQQbwtU&list=PLjHf9jaFs8XWoGULb2HQRvhzBclS1yimW https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5d6SEQQbwtU&list=PLjHf9jaFs8...
- ridgeguy 5y agoSecond this, an excellent series.
- LoveGracePeace 5y agoAgreed. He did a great job documenting and explaining to his audience. The crew did a great job entertaining his presence.
- samstave 5y agoDisclaimer: I love everything about submarines, aside from actually living in one, as I haven't experienced that. What I HAVE experienced is working under an engineering manager/CTO/CIO that WAS a submariner and experienced first hand how a submariner manages a clouod-scale engineering team... + & - -=-=-=-=- He was reall sound, technically, and a good person. But an overbearing asshole when he was convinced he was correct, even when he wasn't. Which was OK, because he would admit when he was wrong, but when he was in the moment of being wrong, was an asshole. The funny thing was, this was my manager at two different companies, spaced abut ~10 years apart between when we had worked together. He is a great guy and a great manager - (he's an EVP at Cisco now (again)) -- but you can REALLY see the submariner attitude come across in tense stand-ups in the morning if we have an issue... Imagine a submariner engineering manager yell at a (not me) - blue/green-dyed-mohawk, gay steampunk engineer who wears vibram five fingers and a top hat and vest and sits on an inflatable ball during standup in sanfrancisco's mission district about scaling AWS spot instances... Yeah... that was a time. I love submarines, but submariners are weird.
- tristor 5y agoI've worked with submariners who were colleagues when I was in engineering and I found them great colleagues. They documented their work carefully, were precise in their language (although colorful), and didn't accept anything less than excellence on their team. Never had one as a boss, but I feel like I'd get along fine. That said, I would never make it on a submarine myself.
- EricE 5y agoIndeed - I have a very good friend who was a reactor operator on a sub - and I still can’t visualize him doing that. He’s pretty much the opposite of descriptions like these which I guess proves the point that generalizations are just that - generalizations and not hard or fast rules. And nope, I would never make it on a sub either. Two years of ROTC pretty much ruled out any military service for me - let alone on a sub. But I’m grateful for those who are willing and choose to serve in those roles.
- geoffeg 5y ago
- imwillofficial 5y agoProud owner of a pair of silver dolphins.
- LoveGracePeace 5y agoSilver is one of my favorite colors.
- imwillofficial 5y agoIt’s the best kind of dolphin
- imwillofficial 5y agoFunny and accurate article: https://www.cracked.com/personal-experiences-1276-6-things-movies-dont-show-you-about-life-submarine.html https://www.cracked.com/personal-experiences-1276-6-things-m...
- bsedlm 5y agoI can sense this is written to make it sound cool and appealing. i.e. this is clearly a form of advertising.
- goodpoint 5y ago...and pretty gross.
- paganel 5y ago> i.e. this is clearly a form of advertising. Which in this particular instance (i.e. the military and the business of killing other people) can be called propaganda without a second thought about it. Someone linked to a Smarter Every Day YT video above which was filmed on a board of a US nuclear submarine, that was also blatant propaganda.
- LanceH 5y agoJust because someone doesn't share your negative view of the military doesn't make it propaganda. There is a certain arrogance in assuming the only way other people could possibly choose to do this is by being brainwashed. Military people write about their fond memories of weird situations they have lived in/through that civilians can't relate to. This doesn't make it all propaganda. This whole article writes like someone trying to explain the weird lives of submariners, and he's just scratching the surface.
- hackyhacky 5y agoPropaganda doesn't mean that it's fake, or that it's brainwashing. It's just "primarily used to influence or persuade an audience to further an agenda." [0] In this case, the agenda is to recruit for the armed forces. In other words "government marketing." [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda
- LanceH 5y ago> "primarily used to influence or persuade an audience to further an agenda." Yea, I don't see the agenda, just writing about some memories of the shared experiences of submariners, and trying to explain them to a wider audience.
- gennarro 5y agoThis started interesting but then devolved into lines like: “ Despite his excitement, he is the smoothest Reactor Operator in the nuclear program and can catch a power spike like he’s dimming the bedroom lights next to his waifu body pillow.” Is this a serious article or not?
- OldManAndTheCpp 5y agoThis is something like a "culture" article, answering not "what does a Reactor Operator do?" (operate the reactor, duh), but "what is a Reactor Operator like?". Describing them in this joking, colorful way give readers more of a feel of the Reactor Operator archetype than a bland "they were the people who scored highest on the standardized test for the navy". It's trying to convey the feeling that "these are the nerdiest people on boat full of nerdy people".
- 51stpage 5y agoI have spent many happy hours listening to Aaron talk about his experiences serving on submarines on YouTube and Twitch. He used to go by JiveTurkey then rebranded to SubBrief. Watching him play Cold Waters is a delight.
- Rebelgecko 5y agoSide note, if anyone has watched The Hunt For Red October and thought "why can't I do this in a video game?" definitely pick up Cold Waters. The core gameplay loop isn't for everyone (depending on difficulty and era it can involve a lot of slow-paced stealthing around) but for me it's a ton of fun.
- sandworm101 5y agoAboard a US nuclear submarine. What is missing from this article is the context of how much the boat impacts the culture. A Russian or British submarine will have a different training system not just because they have a different military culture but also because the boat is physically different. Communications pathways, be them electronic or physical, dictate how decisions are made. A Russian submariner probably won't make a move without orders not because he doesn't know what to do but because there might not be a direct electronic report back at the command as to what is happening. Doing things without orders on a Russian boat can result in command loosing awareness of a situation. A US submariner can have better confidence that his actions will be automatically reported back to command via various sensors and monitoring systems. This article focuses on the fact that the US submarine experience special because everyone is expected to have a working knowledge of every system. That is different than the rest of the US military where people remain very specialized. But mandating generalist knowledge is actually a norm in other countries. The Brits/Canadians tell a joke about US soldiers: Whereas each member of a british or canadian gun crew is expected to understand and perform all the jobs associated with firing a gun, an American is likely to respond "I pull the rope." Such hyper-specialization just doesn't work in a submarine because people are not able to physically move around. The environment, the submarine, dictates the culture.
- kodah 5y agoThe US military actually has various perspectives on this statement by branch: > But mandating generalist knowledge is actually a norm in other countries. The Brits/Canadians tell a joke about US soldiers: Whereas each member of a british or canadian gun crew is expected to understand and perform all the jobs associated with firing a gun, an American is likely to respond "I pull the rope." For instance, the Marines encourage a lot of cross-training. First and foremost, it shoots operational cost to the bottom if you have, say, a Corporal that's formally trained in electronics, but also knows their way around MEPDIS gear, HVAC, guns, and troop movement. The reason you'll hear the most touted though: "What if someone dies; who can take their place?" It's like a right of passage in a way. Green Berets, Navy SWIC, and SEAL/S work in under similar lines of thought from what I know. This all aligns to their mission though: seizing forward positions. The line company Army, however, focuses on specialization. The reasoning is pretty simple: their mandate is to occupy. imo, the way people organize around knowledge is based on the challenges they perceive in the mission ahead. I've yet to figure out how to replicate this in software.
- hammock 5y agoI recently watched Last Resort (streaming on Plex), which gives an entertaining account of life on a nuclear submarine. I recommend it. It also scratches my itch for tv shows and movies where nukes are actually fired/detonated. If there is a comprehensive list somewhere, I’d love to see it.
- ramses0 5y agoHave you seen the movie "Failsafe"? It's an old black-and-white "non-action" movie about nukes during the cold war. Fascinating movie.
- hammock 5y agoI haven't, it's going on the list. The plot sounds remarkably similar to By Dawn's Early Light (also good, from a psychological point of view).
- ramses0 5y agohttps://www.crackle.com/watch/8196/2483291 https://www.crackle.com/watch/8196/2483291 (via google, but have fun with it... popcorn and turn down the lights ;-)
- DocTomoe 5y agoFailsafe is based on the same novel that Dr. Strangelove was based on - but while the (imho vastly superior) Kubrick movie was a comedy, Failsafe is more a warning.
- baobrien 5y agoThey weren't based on the same novel -- but the novels "Fail Safe" and "Red Alert" were similar enough, and the release dates of "Fail Safe" and "Dr. Strangelove" were so close that Peter George and Stanley Kubrick sued the author and production of Fail Safe over copyright. In the eventual settlement, Columbia Pictures bought and distributed Fail Safe. [I'm basing this on a reading of Wikipedia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fail_Safe_(1964_film)#Lawsuit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fail_Safe_(1964_film)#Lawsuit ]
- gwbennett 5y agoSpent 3.5 years on a LA Class Fast Attack sub and 3 years on a Ohio Class Ballistic Missile sub (aka boomer) as Nuke MM & ELT. 10 years total in the Navy. Article put a smile on my face. Not a bad job for being written by a “Sonar Girl”. :-)
- jedc 5y agoELT? I was the RCA on my boat. Had some of my notorious stories of my time on board happen when I was the RCA...
- DoreenMichele 5y agothe Navy’s universal cure, Motrin 600mg Motrin is nicknamed Ranger candy in the US Army because Rangers eat them like candy. I was told by a submariner that there is only one bunk for every three crew members on board, so you learn to sleep anywhere. When he was unable to make his flight home and his parents drove to the airport he was stuck at about 90 minutes from home, they couldn't readily find him because he was curled up around his bag sleeping under some chairs.
- jedc 5y agoFormer submariner here. Re: bunking - that's largely untrue. The majority of crew members on board do get their own bunk. But there aren't enough bunks for everyone, so people have to "hot rack" (aka, share). On my boat, this typically meant 3 people sharing 2 beds - if three people that share the same watchstation are hot-racking, at least one of them has to be on watch at any given time, so the other two have a bed if they need it. Also, a decent number (maybe 10-ish) of the beds/racks tend to be in the torpedo room. Those guys just need to be comfortable sleeping next to big underwater bombs. :) It's changed a bit, but the thing that made everyone fatigued is that your body is used to a 24-hour day, but your work day was an 18-hour day: 3 sections of 6 hour watches.
- sparker72678 5y agoAny idea what motivated the decision to run on an 18 hour day? You mentioned the drawbacks (widespread fatigue), but there must be some (many?) benefits. I'm curious what those might be.
- jedc 5y agoThere's only enough space to have 3 sections of watchstanders on board. So then it becomes a matter of length of watches. 6 hour watches aren't too long, and match up to meals every 6 hours. It's easy/straightforward, and no one gets screwed with always having watch on the midwatch and then also running drills during the day (meaning very little sleep). 8 hour watches could be a bit long, and more problematic is that crew members would always be on the same watch: 0000-0800, 0800-1600, etc. That's potentially even more disruptive.
- AlgorithmicTime 5y ago
- jedc 5y agoFormer submariner here (on the officer side). This article is fun and largely true, but also only scratches the surface of the weird culture of US submariners. Some other things to consider: * submarines deploy for 3-6 months at a time, often-times rarely pulling into ports. Imagine being stuck with 130-150 of your closest friends for that period of time in close quarters. It gets weird. * Law of Conservation of Happiness: Once you're submerged, happiness can be neither created nor destroyed, it can only be taken from others. Easy for the CO/XO to be happy: they run drills & have cleaning days for the crew. But everyone learns other crew members' weaknesses and ruthlessly exploits them if necessary. * Fatigue. I understand it's changed but when I was a submariner the boat operated on an 18-hour cycle: 3 sections of 6-hour watches. Humans aren't meant to operate on an 18-hour day, and so within a day or two of getting underway you just get into this permanent semi-fatigued state. As for me, looking back on my time I enjoyed it and learned a lot. (Maybe more importantly, I learned a lot about myself.) That said, while I was on board it was a lot more difficult experience - it's a challenging life.
- SkyMarshal 5y agoIt seems perma-fatigue could be a serious problem on a warship. Any idea why the Navy doesn’t restructure the working/waking hours to better optimize crew alertness and focus?
- newsclues 5y agoI think it’s similar to doctors: a combination of traditional and demands of the job/flow of work based on existing process.
- Blackthorn 5y agoIt has been a serious problem, you read in the news about some warship crash every few years! It's likely that the Navy hasn't restructured things because they simply do not need to and have no incentive to do so. We're not exactly in a peer conflict.
- vkou 5y agoBecause until an admiral gets fired, nobody takes some minor fatigue-related mishap like a destroyer running into a container ship (killing a few sailors on board, putting the ship out of action, and causing XY million dollars in damages) seriously.
- photochemsyn 5y agoInteresting article, although as with most military write-ups of this nature perhaps a bit thin on the introspection. Ever wonder just how much damage one nuclear submarine could do? > "Rising between levels in the missile compartment, 24 large orange trunks fill the nuclear ballistic submarine like an apocalyptic orchard." Probably (wiki) these are: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UGM-133_Trident_II https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UGM-133_Trident_II Each probably (wiki) carries four of these independently targeted warheads: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W88 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W88 Now, if you want to basically wreck human civilization with one nuclear submarine, drop one of each warhead over each of the 100 largest nuclear reactor sites on the planet. Fukushima for example had six reactors and >1500 tons of fuel rods on hand at the time of that disaster. This will cause a complete meltdown and aerosolization of much of the fuel, it'll go into the atmosphere and rain down for thousands of miles downwind from the site, creating no-go conditions for human beings (unless you want massive radiation poisoning and birth defects etc.) Multiply that by 100x around the planet and you can see what a mind-boggling disaster it would be. Now, that's just one nuclear submarine; there are many in operation. Plus the land-based and bomber-based nukes. And this is all done because otherwise, every single international conflict since Hiroshima would likely have escalated into the kind of crazy WWII tank battles and aerial bombardments of cities that took millions of lives. Probably has prevented full-on land/air/sea battles between India and Pakistan, for example. And yet... all it takes is some accident, some breakdown, some misunderstanding and the nukes start flying. Makes you wonder, doesn't it? Some people will argue that this is why there are no alien civilizations, they all torched themselves once they reached our level of technological development.
- robocat 5y ago> [A nuclear blast] will cause a complete meltdown and aerosolization of much of the fuel [of the reactor and storage] Cann the blast from a nuclear warhead realistically be positioned such that it would aerosolise significant amounts of nuclear fuel? And given the location of nuclear reactors, would it matter in a full nuclear war? Your comment sounds like a good fictional story, but does it actually make any sense?
- 5y ago
- sgarland 5y agoI'm a former propulsion plant operator (AKA reactor operator, but we got renamed) on a Virginia-class (the newest fast-attack class) sub. A correction to some stereotypes: Machinist's Mate AKA Mechanic: Often the burliest, but also on my boat the MMs had the highest percentage of WoW players. For reference, this was during BC and WotLK. Engineering Laboratory Technician: A subset of the Mechanic, they're the ones who handle the water chemistry of the reactor, and monitor radiation levels. They're generally hated by mechanics since although they technically are capable of doing their job - and thus could/should be supporting their watches - they usually claim the need for independence. They're also generally liars. Electrical Operator AKA Electrician: While in theory their job is to run and maintain the electric plant, in reality their job is anything that other people don't want to do/can't manage. They're masters at adaptation. I have personally assisted the Electrical Leading Petty Officer (as Reactor Leading Petty Officer) in troubleshooting and repairing the diesel generator control panel, various sonar equipment, heaters, etc. What also infuriates the electricians is that due to weird rules, while they're allowed to babysit the reactor while it's shutdown (called, appropriately, Shutdown Reactor Operator), they can't operate it at power. This, despite the Reactor Operators frequently being of lower intelligence and ability. Electronics Technician AKA Reactor Operator / Propulsion Plant Operator: Basically God's gift to mankind, except for the dumb ones. Definitely the twitchiest of the bunch, and a solid amount of us are almost certainly on the spectrum. The job alternates between utter boredom (as it turns out, nuclear reactors are extremely stable at steady-state conditions), excitement (drills involving recovering the reactor following an emergency shutdown), and hatred (any maintenance activity involving the steam generators).
- InTheArena 5y agoWow. The word captain is only in there twice. Compare and contrast with the rest of the Navy.
- bloomingeek 5y agoI'm what’s called a Stationary Operating Engineer, which is a fancy name for a boiler operator. We're the ones who keep all large buildings from hospitals to factories to nuke plants online usually by operating boilers and chillers. Over the years (I'm close to retirement) I've worked with many former Navy men, some of whom were on subs, both diesel and nuke. Listening to their stories has always been interesting, but what always got me was the amount of training school they went through. When they hire in I'm the one who "trains" them for our plants and I always find them very competent.
- beeboop 5y agoIf you click to zoom an image and then zoom in more using a mac touchpad, the website throws an error and ceases to display any content. I miss the internet of the 90s
- ThinkBeat 5y ago>The Radioman is the most elusive of the Coners. He spends his time locked in his >‘Radio Shack’ both off watch and on. This limited access space offers a small >amount of privacy not seen anywhere else outside I dont understand this. Is there one and only one radio person, and that person sleeps, and works in the same "office". Since messages might need to go out at any time, would it not require a shift change? A different nicely rested radio person? I suppose in most cases when you can send messages is limited and thus scheduled ahead of time. (When the sub is close enough to the surface?) Yet the persons constant presence would indicate that a message might have to go out at any time. I just feel bad for the person who has to be on guard 24/7. Also is there then only one radio person per crew? Seems like a role that would require a backup. But then so does docs, and there is only one of that person?
- yamazakiwi 5y agoRadioman here, although ship-bound. They combined Radioman and IT into one role so you end up managing quite a lot of systems. I slept in the radio shack more often than I slept in my bed while at sea. My crew was 12 people IT/Radio for a 300 person ship. There are so many different responsibilities within this role, satellite communication systems especially, that usually 6/12 people would be glued to one area of the radio shack for hours and hours working or waiting on one system but the radio shack was at least half full at all times. We had varying hourly schedules for coverage throughout my 4 years aboard including: 12 on, 12 off - 8 on, 8 off - 6 on, 6 off. In addition to your normal job you must also perform hardware maintenance on your own time and you have a tertiary job related to combat/warfare (mine was firefighter) so you end up doing constant drills/training on top of your actual work. Everyone on my ship lived on Monsters and Pre-workouts. While on shore every 6 days you have what is called "Duty". Duty is a 24 hour work window where I did my job for 10 hours and then did one or two 4-hour roving shifts. Roving is essentially just surveying the ship with armor and an m-16. Me and a colleague hated these roving shifts so we would purposefully set systems to alarm at opportune times to get us off those roving shifts so we could do our 4-hour duty shifts in the radioshack, where we work on personal projects or just watch anime off an external hdd. A Submarine's crew is about half the size of my ship so I'd guess they have around 5-6 radioman/IT but I could be wrong.
- rcurry 5y agoThe only thing I really miss about the Navy was the night sky when you’re in the middle of the Pacific Ocean. You don’t see stars, you see galaxies, it’s truly breathtaking when there is no light pollution from anywhere.
- phendrenad2 5y agoWhat modern civilization took from us.
- rtkwe 5y agoThere are places that's still available in the continental US. It should get pretty close to what you could get out there. I've been out to Great Sand Dunes in CO and it is pretty magnificent. https://www.darksky.org/our-work/conservation/idsp/parks/ https://www.darksky.org/our-work/conservation/idsp/parks/
- gumby 5y agoI just want to call out the blog host (thedrive?) for not resorting to clickbait and substituting “secret” for “unique” in the title. Title abuse is so bad this is worth acknowledging.
- khazhoux 5y agoDo submarines actually "do" anything? AFAICT they just swim about, dropping steel cans of garbage on the ocean floor.
- lisper 5y agoThey wait for the day when they are the last remaining means of launching nuclear weapons.
- pclmulqdq 5y agoThe presence of nuclear submarines is strategically important in case a war breaks out. They are there to make sure that anyone who fires a nuke knows that they can't get every silo that will launch a nuke back. Attack submarines join the metagame because their job is to find/attack and defend the missile submarines.
- gjhan 5y agoThey tap communications cables, among other things.
- kens 5y agoThe General Belgrano was sunk by a nuclear-powered submarine during the Falklands War (1982). Tomahawk cruise missiles were launched from submarines against Iraq in the Gulf War (1991) and against Yugoslavia in the Kosovo War (1999).
- ranger207 5y agoThey're a fleet-in-being: their mere existence limits what an adversary can plan to do. In the case of boomers, they limit the ability of the adversary to plan a successful nuclear war
- burner556 5y agoLove sub culture. Worked on a surface ship but took a tour of a US nuke sub. Enlisted. The sub Chief (E-7) was leading me down the p-way, we approached an ensign (O-1). Me: "Good afternoon sir" Chief: Body slams the Ensign against the bulkhead Chief: "Whoops sorry sir! Didn't see you there! I bet the culture is changing for the worse with the introduction of women to subs which shouldn't happen IMO. It just adds all sorts of tension. Don't tell me I'm sexist I've seen the culture before and after women allowed on certain surface ships. It's just not the same, adds a layer of rigidity and drama. Curious if anybody who worked on a mixed gender crew sub can comment here.
- soylentbeige 5y agoWhy do you believe that introducing women has been detrimental?
- burner556 5y agoWell you can't whip out your dick at morning muster anymore, for one. It just changes the dynamic. All men is brotherly. Swapping out crew to make 10-30% woman now adds a different dimension. Who is trying to fuck who. This person causing drama with this person. ETC. What happens if somebody gets preg-o on a 6 month nuke patrol. So many examples to list. All men is just more simple.
- blamazon 5y agoIf we trust these people to not initiate nuclear disaster/apocalypse, is it not a lesser trust to ask them to conduct a professional modern workplace?
- burner556 5y agoM8 they are sleeping in eachother's beds and smelling eachother's breath for 3-4 months at a time in a 10 x 170 meter tube underwater. Something's gotta give. Surface Navy is fine for mixed gender now it's become very political. Subs are not the place.