9 ms·

This sounds like brexiteer project. Doubt this will actually happen. 3800 km of undersea HVDC cable just to circumvent the EU. 3800 km is the distance from St.P

This sounds like brexiteer project. Doubt this will actually happen. 3800 km of undersea HVDC cable just to circumvent the EU. 3800 km is the distance from St.Petersburg to Marocco.

mardifoufs 4y ago
I mean it probably would've been very hard to route it through Europe too. Morocco already has powerlines with Spain, but I'm not sure if it would make sense to transport that much energy through the existing grid? Especially since very high voltage powerlines are inherently more efficient, so a direct link might make sense. I'm not familiar with how the EU grid is laid out though, and the little knowledge I have is pretty specific the Québec Grid.
- Symbiote 4y ago
  The European grids, and some neighbouring countries, are shown here: https://www.entsoe.eu/data/map/ https://www.entsoe.eu/data/map/
- KarlKemp 4y ago
  It’d be stupid to run a cable straight through the EU, as well, yes. You want to be part of a large and diverse grid. Then, you add or reinforce long-distance connections based on observed patterns. So the UK should get over itself, connect to larger grid that’s already operating on three sides. The same is probably true for Morocco, and at some point these photovoltaic-in-the-desert ideas will become economical, although I’m not entirely sure if we are there yet (the desert is less ideal for solar cells than one thinks, because heat isn’t linear proportional to irradiation).
  - sgt101 4y ago
    It is connected, via France. There was a fire recently, but it's a strategic connection. https://ifa1interconnector.com/ https://ifa1interconnector.com/ Also the UK is connected to Norway https://northsealink.com/ https://northsealink.com/ And Ireland also https://www.eirgridgroup.com/customer-and-industry/interconnection/ https://www.eirgridgroup.com/customer-and-industry/interconn...
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - masklinn 4y ago
    > It’d be stupid to run a cable straight through the EU, as well, yes. Politically, maybe. Technically and financially, not at all. There’s 3GW of interconnection between france and the UK with a 4th under construction, and france is a broker / hub between germany, italy, spain, and the UK (as well as its own production).
    - justincormack 4y ago
      France won’t let solar from Spain into their grid as it undermines their nuclear financing. So from Morocco is off the table. A Spain UK connection was planned and seems sensible.
      - masklinn 4y ago
        > France won’t let solar from Spain into their grid as it undermines their nuclear financing. Complete nonsense. France buys renewable electricity from neighbours all the time, both for itself and to sell to other neighbours. France also sells its own electricity. A new interconnect between france and Spain is under construction (the biscay bay line), in order to bring the exchange capacity between them up to 5GW.
giorgioz 4y ago
Yes it does, I'm not sure why they can't just put wind turbines in the UK. I'm sure there is plenty of wind there too. Also it would seem the south of France or Portugal would be much closer for the solar part.
- varajelle 4y ago
  > I'm not sure why they can't just put wind turbines in the UK. From the article: > When domestic renewable energy generation in the United Kingdom drops due to low winds and short periods of sun, the project will harvest the benefits of long hours of sun in Morocco
- Kognito 4y ago
  For context the UK is already massively invested in wind turbines, with a lot more investment going into off-shore farms. On a good windy day, current capacity might satisfy ~40% of grid demand and this will only increase. However, the wind doesn't always blow and a cache of coal-fired power stations are kept on hand to quickly be able to plug the gap. If this is economical enough - I'd be all for it rather than paying energy companies to keep coal-fired power stations ready to belch out smog at a moments notice.
  - justincormack 4y ago
    Gas fired not coal. Its faster to spin up.
- jodrellblank 4y ago
  Right now (Sunday afternoon) the UK is getting about 1/3rd of the nations power from wind turbines, more than any other single source: https://www.energydashboard.co.uk/live https://www.energydashboard.co.uk/live https://winderful.uk/ https://winderful.uk/
  - gizajob 4y ago
    Great stats, and great username. Hope you're near to the great telescope. Spent some joyous school trips there as a child.
mike_hearn 4y ago
Brexit isn't mentioned anywhere and the physics of it would be the same regardless of the EU existing or not. The reason to go direct to Morocco are that transmission through regular AC grids would lose virtually all the power before it gets anywhere near the UK. 10GW is a hell of a load and you can't just pretend a grid is a bathtub at these scales. But as you brought it up, even if there was a semi-conductor breakthrough tomorrow the political reasons to go direct would still be there. The EU wants the UK to be subservient to the Commission for ideological, political and economic reasons. The UK doesn't want to be back in that situation. The EU would absolutely make energy transit dependent on all manner of entirely irrelevant topics - fish is the current one but there would be others - and thus making electricity supplies dependent on the EU would end up being equivalent to being sucked back in, not as a member state but as a vassal state.
- nbevans 4y ago
  Exactly. The last couple years has really let the mask slip on what the EU stands for and they've made it expressly clear how they intend to treat the UK going forward - despite the UK's best efforts to forge a genuinely strong relationship, this has been rebuffed at every opportunity. We are "fair game" to them now. So it makes complete sense to design future energy projects with sovereignty in mind.
  - KarlKemp 4y ago
    The EU does not think of the UK in that way. In fact it tends not to think of the UK at all, these days. As to being "fair game": that's true, in the sense that the EU will place the interests of member states over those of the UK. That dynamic must be among the least surprising developments of history, considering it is both obvious and formed the core of every serious prediction in the run-up to Brexit. There was plenty of swagger back in those days with fantasies of renewed UK superpower domineering the EU and extracting every concession it can think of. "Fantasy" because that's just not how it works if the other party makes up 60 % of your foreign trade, but you make up less than 10 % of theirs. So here we are now, with the UK coming up with these harebrained schemes that feel like some party organized with the specific purpose of not inviting your ex.
petr_tik 4y ago
> This sounds like brexiteer project. Given that the UK has left the EU, couldn't you call every trade deal or cultural exchange with a non-EU country a Brexit project? Even if it is, what is wrong with that? The people of Britain voted for Brexit and now need their elected officials to deliver, which motivates projects like these Edit: to clarify, i live in London and i didn't vote for Brexit. Regardless of the outcome, I consider it a national security issue and a productivity boost to have cheap energy collected from a diverse set of sources from solar plants abroad to domestic nuclear energy plants and off-shore wind turbines. If you live in Britain, would you really prefer Britain stop investing in projects like these, just because there was an election result you disagreed with?
- blibble 4y ago
  > The people of Britain voted for Brexit and now need their elected officials to deliver the desired position of many is that the UK should crawl off into a corner and almost die, then will have to come crawling back to the EU to show that is indispensable projects like this work counter to that narrative
- matthewdgreen 4y ago
  I'm just curious if a direct interconnect from Morocco->UK is the best solution from an engineering perspective, or if a Morocco->EU->UK interconnect would work better without the politics.
  - tuatoru 4y ago
    The latter would work better in terms of energy losses, but would require major overcapacity in the interconnectors between Spain and France (from Spain's and France's point of view). They'd drag their feet. We are where we are. Politics is a thing. If it pushes along the transition from fossil fuels to renewables, I don't care if it's "inefficient". Show me a major company that hasn't wasted money or done something in a way that is technically less than optimal.
- oliwarner 4y ago
  Brexiteer, not Brexit. The latter being a dictionary definition of a bad idea, the first being the buffoons who lied about it, flying kites, tossing dead cats around to manipulate the conversation and ultimately shove it through, half cocked. This looks like yet another kite to be sold with: "Look what we can do now we're out of that wretched EU". Possibly a nice idea, aggressively detached from reality.
dankboys 4y ago
Ah yes, famously brexit didn't happen

This sounds like brexiteer project. Doubt this will actually happen. 3800 km of undersea HVDC cable just to circumvent the EU. 3800 km is the distance from St.Petersburg to Marocco.

mardifoufs 4y ago

I mean it probably would've been very hard to route it through Europe too. Morocco already has powerlines with Spain, but I'm not sure if it would make sense to transport that much energy through the existing grid? Especially since very high voltage powerlines are inherently more efficient, so a direct link might make sense. I'm not familiar with how the EU grid is laid out though, and the little knowledge I have is pretty specific the Québec Grid.

Symbiote 4y ago
The European grids, and some neighbouring countries, are shown here: https://www.entsoe.eu/data/map/ https://www.entsoe.eu/data/map/
KarlKemp 4y ago
It’d be stupid to run a cable straight through the EU, as well, yes. You want to be part of a large and diverse grid. Then, you add or reinforce long-distance connections based on observed patterns. So the UK should get over itself, connect to larger grid that’s already operating on three sides. The same is probably true for Morocco, and at some point these photovoltaic-in-the-desert ideas will become economical, although I’m not entirely sure if we are there yet (the desert is less ideal for solar cells than one thinks, because heat isn’t linear proportional to irradiation).
- sgt101 4y ago
  It is connected, via France. There was a fire recently, but it's a strategic connection. https://ifa1interconnector.com/ https://ifa1interconnector.com/ Also the UK is connected to Norway https://northsealink.com/ https://northsealink.com/ And Ireland also https://www.eirgridgroup.com/customer-and-industry/interconnection/ https://www.eirgridgroup.com/customer-and-industry/interconn...
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- masklinn 4y ago
  > It’d be stupid to run a cable straight through the EU, as well, yes. Politically, maybe. Technically and financially, not at all. There’s 3GW of interconnection between france and the UK with a 4th under construction, and france is a broker / hub between germany, italy, spain, and the UK (as well as its own production).
  - justincormack 4y ago
    France won’t let solar from Spain into their grid as it undermines their nuclear financing. So from Morocco is off the table. A Spain UK connection was planned and seems sensible.
    - masklinn 4y ago
      > France won’t let solar from Spain into their grid as it undermines their nuclear financing. Complete nonsense. France buys renewable electricity from neighbours all the time, both for itself and to sell to other neighbours. France also sells its own electricity. A new interconnect between france and Spain is under construction (the biscay bay line), in order to bring the exchange capacity between them up to 5GW.

giorgioz 4y ago

Yes it does, I'm not sure why they can't just put wind turbines in the UK. I'm sure there is plenty of wind there too. Also it would seem the south of France or Portugal would be much closer for the solar part.

varajelle 4y ago
> I'm not sure why they can't just put wind turbines in the UK. From the article: > When domestic renewable energy generation in the United Kingdom drops due to low winds and short periods of sun, the project will harvest the benefits of long hours of sun in Morocco
Kognito 4y ago
For context the UK is already massively invested in wind turbines, with a lot more investment going into off-shore farms. On a good windy day, current capacity might satisfy ~40% of grid demand and this will only increase. However, the wind doesn't always blow and a cache of coal-fired power stations are kept on hand to quickly be able to plug the gap. If this is economical enough - I'd be all for it rather than paying energy companies to keep coal-fired power stations ready to belch out smog at a moments notice.
- justincormack 4y ago
  Gas fired not coal. Its faster to spin up.
jodrellblank 4y ago
Right now (Sunday afternoon) the UK is getting about 1/3rd of the nations power from wind turbines, more than any other single source: https://www.energydashboard.co.uk/live https://www.energydashboard.co.uk/live https://winderful.uk/ https://winderful.uk/
- gizajob 4y ago
  Great stats, and great username. Hope you're near to the great telescope. Spent some joyous school trips there as a child.

mike_hearn 4y ago

Brexit isn't mentioned anywhere and the physics of it would be the same regardless of the EU existing or not. The reason to go direct to Morocco are that transmission through regular AC grids would lose virtually all the power before it gets anywhere near the UK. 10GW is a hell of a load and you can't just pretend a grid is a bathtub at these scales. But as you brought it up, even if there was a semi-conductor breakthrough tomorrow the political reasons to go direct would still be there. The EU wants the UK to be subservient to the Commission for ideological, political and economic reasons. The UK doesn't want to be back in that situation. The EU would absolutely make energy transit dependent on all manner of entirely irrelevant topics - fish is the current one but there would be others - and thus making electricity supplies dependent on the EU would end up being equivalent to being sucked back in, not as a member state but as a vassal state.

nbevans 4y ago
Exactly. The last couple years has really let the mask slip on what the EU stands for and they've made it expressly clear how they intend to treat the UK going forward - despite the UK's best efforts to forge a genuinely strong relationship, this has been rebuffed at every opportunity. We are "fair game" to them now. So it makes complete sense to design future energy projects with sovereignty in mind.
- KarlKemp 4y ago
  The EU does not think of the UK in that way. In fact it tends not to think of the UK at all, these days. As to being "fair game": that's true, in the sense that the EU will place the interests of member states over those of the UK. That dynamic must be among the least surprising developments of history, considering it is both obvious and formed the core of every serious prediction in the run-up to Brexit. There was plenty of swagger back in those days with fantasies of renewed UK superpower domineering the EU and extracting every concession it can think of. "Fantasy" because that's just not how it works if the other party makes up 60 % of your foreign trade, but you make up less than 10 % of theirs. So here we are now, with the UK coming up with these harebrained schemes that feel like some party organized with the specific purpose of not inviting your ex.

petr_tik 4y ago

> This sounds like brexiteer project. Given that the UK has left the EU, couldn't you call every trade deal or cultural exchange with a non-EU country a Brexit project? Even if it is, what is wrong with that? The people of Britain voted for Brexit and now need their elected officials to deliver, which motivates projects like these Edit: to clarify, i live in London and i didn't vote for Brexit. Regardless of the outcome, I consider it a national security issue and a productivity boost to have cheap energy collected from a diverse set of sources from solar plants abroad to domestic nuclear energy plants and off-shore wind turbines. If you live in Britain, would you really prefer Britain stop investing in projects like these, just because there was an election result you disagreed with?

blibble 4y ago
> The people of Britain voted for Brexit and now need their elected officials to deliver the desired position of many is that the UK should crawl off into a corner and almost die, then will have to come crawling back to the EU to show that is indispensable projects like this work counter to that narrative
matthewdgreen 4y ago
I'm just curious if a direct interconnect from Morocco->UK is the best solution from an engineering perspective, or if a Morocco->EU->UK interconnect would work better without the politics.
- tuatoru 4y ago
  The latter would work better in terms of energy losses, but would require major overcapacity in the interconnectors between Spain and France (from Spain's and France's point of view). They'd drag their feet. We are where we are. Politics is a thing. If it pushes along the transition from fossil fuels to renewables, I don't care if it's "inefficient". Show me a major company that hasn't wasted money or done something in a way that is technically less than optimal.
oliwarner 4y ago
Brexiteer, not Brexit. The latter being a dictionary definition of a bad idea, the first being the buffoons who lied about it, flying kites, tossing dead cats around to manipulate the conversation and ultimately shove it through, half cocked. This looks like yet another kite to be sold with: "Look what we can do now we're out of that wretched EU". Possibly a nice idea, aggressively detached from reality.

dankboys 4y ago

Ah yes, famously brexit didn't happen