9 ms·

> Off-Topic: Most stories about politics I wish this was still the case. Talking about politics used to be avoided here, and certainly engaging in reddit-tier

> Off-Topic: Most stories about politics I wish this was still the case. Talking about politics used to be avoided here, and certainly engaging in reddit-tier partisan arguing was extremely rare. Now there are political posts almost every day that have comment sections full of mud slinging. I'm guilty of it too, even as recently as today, so I'm not taking a holier than thou position, but man those threads are just incredibly strong flamebait. There has been a noticeable shift in the way HN engages with political topics over the last couple of years, and more recently in particular.

dang 5y ago
HN isn't more political now than it used to be. Arguments about HN getting more political / getting ruined by politics go all the way back to 2008 at least. This is a common enough misconception that I put some effort into writing a standard post for it some years ago—maybe we should put it in the FAQ, I don't know: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17014869 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17014869 One has to be careful not to fall prey to whatever bias it is that always makes it feel like things are getting worse.
icelancer 5y ago
Agreed. Would be pleased if they were all deleted, automatically if possible.
technocratius 5y ago
I agree and would be in favor of more heavy moderation on this. I strongly suspect HN will descend into a kind off reddit if this is not put a halt to. Curious to hear the views of the HN mods on this, but I expect they won't publicly engage in that discussion.
keerthiko 5y ago
I think it's simply a reflection of the shift of how educated society engages with political topics. If it affects quality of life of humans, it is political. This has always been true, it's fundamentally the point of politics. However, the effects on the QoL of many humans is not a concern to those of us who have the privilege to simply look away and not notice a difference to our own quality of life. This privileged demo has drastically shrunk (ie, politics directly and noticeably impacts the QoL of far more people) today, mostly because the rest of the people have deservedly been given more of a voice. Policy in its present state can mean the difference between life and death for many people who happily steered clear of "politics" 5 years ago, and talking about it is an option for people who were silenced and closeted 10 years ago. Even those of us who wilfully try to plug their ears and come up a system of rules and restricted topics that are "political" and "to be avoided" will find it incredibly hard to enforce, because someone or other will break the rule, and it's physically impossible for everyone else to keep their peace until a moderator brings the banhammer. The world is going through shared turmoil right now and politics is naturally a first stop to look for society-level resolutions, or at least adjustments to existing rules to improve QoL.
- fauigerzigerk 5y ago
  I agree that it's not possible to steer clear of politics. But there is more than one way to discuss politics and political aspects related to hacking and entrepreneurship (such as markets, oligopolies, net neutrality, copyrights, patents, encryption, etc) One way is to focus on difficult questions, on the inevitable trade-offs and on interesting, perhaps less conventional solutions. These debates are supposed to make people think. The other is to declare all questions settled and focus on rhetorical tactics to suppress the enemy. Stop thinking, start acting, crush the evil enemy, it's about life and death! In my opinion, this latter form of politics should be kept off HN. Thinking is not a luxury that we can no longer afford once decisions become important to people's lives. It's a necessity at all times and it needs space.
  - giantg2 5y ago
    "political aspects related to hacking and entrepreneurship (such as markets, oligopolies, net neutrality, copyrights, patents, encryption, etc)" I agree that if it's related like these topics, that it has a place here. One thing that is on here often is the talk about housing density and zoning. I don't think that has a technical tie-in to entrepreneurship or hacking. That said, I don't really mind as long as the conversation occurs with an open mind and people are bringing new ideas to the table and not just parroting the mainstream takes.
- kortilla 5y ago
  I disagree, I think it’s a reflection of lack of critical thinking skills when it comes to political topics. People are so polarized now they have lost the ability to discuss nuance, see the other side, or really compromise at all. Everything is couched in terms of “with us or against us” extremist dichotomies much like the one hiding in the undertone of your post. Of course everyone thinks their political views are critical to life the same way people think their religion is important. It’s still super rude to bring up religion in an orthogonal topic and it’s still super rude to do the same with politics.
  - giantg2 5y ago
ksec 5y ago
>over the last couple of years It stated in ~2015. I used think politics in itself should be avoided, unless it is related to Tech. So the best place to start would be to flag any submission that has nothing to do with Tech. We cant avoid politics that has to do with Tech though, App Store guidelines and regulation, Social Media and Internet, China and Russia usage of Tech.
- simonh 5y ago
  >We cant avoid politics that has to do with Tech though, App Store guidelines and regulation, Social Media and Internet, China and Russia usage of Tech. That's everything then. Tech platforms have become the primary channels for the discussion of everything, particularly politics, which makes all political issues tech issues.
  - xigoi 5y ago
    This is like saying that you need your body to talk about politics, which makes all political issues anatomical issues.
- twoodfin 5y ago
  I’d argue it really started when Edward Snowden was on a plane somewhere over the Atlantic. HN was wall-to-wall with updates and rumors that, frankly, were not particularly interesting, informative or thought-provoking. But the ideological valence of the story was clearly more important. We got a mini version of this more recently in the Net Neutrality wars. It’s funny how both of those stories turned out in the long run.
slim 5y ago
that was short sighted when the forum was started. it's a forum about tech and entrepreneurship, so politics are the main concern. it's as if bloomberg had a policy of talking about finance only and not politics.
- 6thaccount 5y ago
buro9 5y ago
Everything is political, you can't pretend it's not. You may deny it for as long as possible, but people see through that. Technology is political. Whether it's the nature of architecture (centralised Vs decentralised), or the nature of transparency (proprietary Vs FOSS). It's all political, imagining that we can fully pretend it's not would be a challenge. The key is to keep the debate civil, reasoned, rational, respectful.
- Sirened 5y ago
  Being able to plug your ears and call a field apolitical is a matter of your position in society or in your sub community. There's the joke that goes "what are the two sexes? Male and political", and it really does have a grain of truth to it.
- isitmadeofglass 5y ago
  How a BVH is implemented is not political. Being hyperbolic is counter productive to a discussion centered around the site guidelines.
- AlchemistCamp 5y ago
  That’s not a very useful frame. One could just as easily claim that everything is philosophical, that everything is scientific, that everything is artistic, or that everything is mathematical. If you squint hard enough, sure, you can apply the adjective you want to just about anything you want. That doesn’t mean that the adjective has no meaning.
  - bryanrasmussen 5y ago
    I don't think you can say that everything is maniacal without a lot of explanation afterwards and most people not getting whatever point you're trying to make, but sure, for the broader adjectives used to describe core parts of the human experience, everything that humans do or perceive will in some way relate to these.
  - buro9 5y ago
    It's not trying to be disingenuous. I ran a cycling forum and thought it could be without politics, but cyclists died in road traffic incident in London that turned out to be predominantly female cyclists due to heavy goods vehicles, and over time I had to relent... it is policies that shape the city planning, the construction industry regulations (trucks with significant blind spots)... and that these deaths were preventable, people were right to be angry, and that a cycling forum couldn't exist without a political element. I ran a music forum and thought it could be without politics, but music is art and art reflects the feelings of those on council estates and in poverty, with hard backgrounds, and addictions. They are shaped by their environment and through the art attempt to document and also shape those environments. Even for a mostly apolitical band a single song touched upon rape and opened the door to debates on rape culture and the low prosecution rate and the even lower reporting rate. A music forum that tried it's best to avoid politics couldn't exist without a political element. And here on hacker news, that new app that is in the YC batch that allows someone to sofa surf... that's political but you just didn't know it at the time. AirBnB and so many other companies, apps, tools... have leveraged the gaps in local policies and law to fuel their margins and stock value. It is very difficult to say that even this site could exist without a political element when a lot of the technology and companies that have come about it impact so many people globally in ways that only political and legal tools can protect. I don't really believe this site can exist without a political element. The only question (IMHO) is whether those discussions can be conducted civilly, with respect and openness, non-adversarially, and with empathy as much as possible.
jl6 5y ago
But one person’s irrefutable facts are another person’s politics, so it’s hard to separate the two. Better IMHO to focus on keeping it civil rather than try to ban topics (which itself is another act of politics).
dcposch 5y ago
Political debate on HN has become unavoidable because tech itself has been politicized. Of course on some level it always was, "everything is political" etc, but a decade ago most participants saw tech as broadly neutral. What was the political valence of Etherpad or Foursquare? Today, engineers are asked to implement things like the "inclusivity warnings" that just shipped in Google Docs. The scope of "content moderation" has expanded dramatically. Founders are often explicitly partisan in one direction or another. And the new engagement goes in both directions. The five most valuable companies on earth are all West Coast tech cos now. Political actors of all types are watching and trying to harness or control tech to a much greater extent than last decade.
- sgt 5y ago
  To a degree yes, but you don't have to (or shouldn't debate) specific political parties, or whether Trump is better than Biden, etc.
- einpoklum 5y ago
  > most participants saw tech as broadly neutral. ... What was the political valence of Etherpad or Foursquare? While it's quite probably that most participants _saw_ it as mostly-neutral, I would claim that was obviously a mis-conception. In 2012, the popularity of smartphones was already having significant cultural effects, effects on alienation and isolation vs interaction of people in public spaces, etc. And that's just one of innumerable examples. FOSS vs. commercial software - definitely a political question, already 40 years ago and even earlier. Energy production and conversion technology - lots of geopolitics depends on who needs how much fossil fuel energy. etc. etc. And when a tech issue has significant political ramifications, you also have interest-holders involved in promoting or trying to block it, making an effort to inculcate the public with certain ideological views on the issue etc.
- iamacyborg 5y ago
  > The five most valuable companies on earth are all West Coast tech cos now You’re forgetting saudi aramco.
  - 5y ago
snomad 5y ago
There is a school of thought, primarily from critical theorists and their derivatives, that proposes constant agitation, there is no neutral. E.g. Kendi's anti-racist. As this school of thought has taken root in schools and media, political discussion has expanded to encompass more and more of life. It is the intended result. Fair to say they have been wildly successful.
sealeck 5y ago
> I hate the indifferent. I believe that living means taking sides. Those who really live cannot help being a citizen and a partisan. Indifference and apathy are parasitism, perversion, not life. That is why I hate the indifferent. > The indifference is the deadweight of history. The indifference operates with great power on history. The indifference operates passively, but it operates. It is fate, that which cannot be counted on. It twists programs and ruins the best-conceived plans. It is the raw material that ruins intelligence. That what happens, the evil that weighs upon all, happens because the human mass abdicates to their will; allows laws to be promulgated that only the revolt could nullify, and leaves men that only a mutiny will be able to overthrow to achieve the power. - Antonio Gramsci
- colordrops 5y ago
  The choice isn't often so clear cut. In fact I'll take a side here and say that the idea pushed by this quote is actually one of the most poisonous aspects of American culture at the moment. You are either "red" or "blue" or wasting time with your apathy. No, that's utter BS.
  - Ntrails 5y ago
    I would interpret that quote slightly differently. Not making a decision is, in itself, a decision with consequences. Indifference is a powerful choice with real consequences to society, just like delaying an important decision can take it out of your hands etc. The side doesn't have to be red or blue, but anything is better than "who cares"
    - notreallyserio 5y ago
      > Not making a decision is, in itself, a decision with consequences. And this is why so much energy is spent convincing you that your vote doesn't matter or that both sides are the same, etc.
      - colordrops 5y ago
alimov 5y ago
Yeah HN of 2012ish timeframe was very different. Even Reddit didn’t seem nearly as popular. I think this goes for everything (not just forums), but the more popular a forum becomes the worse the content seems to get. I would like to say that the mods and community here have been unreasonably good at keeping up a level of quality that would likely have been long gone any place else.
matthewmacleod 5y ago
Yeah. I’d like to avoid a cliché “this forum has changed over time and that is bad!!!” argument - but it definitely does feel like the tone of many discussions is different. I find myself rolling my eyes in frustration and being taken in by it way too often. It’s up for debate if that’s a change in the discussion, or a change in me. I’ve taken to trying to just immediately click “hide” on any article I see on the homepage that sounds like it might get anywhere near anything controversial - removing the temptation to engage unconstructively completely. And the same with comments to some extent - if there’s a culture-war trigger-phrase in a comment, just hide the tree and move on. That’s getting harder though - I wouldn’t have expected an article about Netflix subscriber growth to end up with a bunch of top-level comments about “woke politics ruining tech”, for example. It’s often kind for hard to avoid even if you are trying. And it’s not like “politics” as a subject could be dismissed either. The thing is that articles about Musk buying Twitter or Google making controversial auto-correct suggestions or whatever are inherently both tech and politics. I don’t know how you avoid that - but the atmosphere definitely makes me want to avoid participating all together.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
bryanrasmussen 5y ago
I have to say I have not experienced this, the opposite actually in that I have posted some articles that were shut down quite quickly because they had a political aspect. I personally am a little upset about it because if you cannot discuss political things it indicates a weakness in the platform, but on the other hand maybe it is necessary to avoid it to keep HN relatively amicable.
idkwhoiam 5y ago
Politics in tech is as old as the tabs vs spaces debate
hannob 5y ago
I honestly never understood what people expect who want tech "without politics". Technology is a crucial development impacting society. Of course discussing tech is political. How could it not be?
- hardware2win 5y ago
  Sure if you work at faamg then yea, but random ass / small computer oriented company has nothing political. 0therwise your definition makes everything political, thus is useless
  - iamacyborg 5y ago
    > 0therwise your definition makes everything political, thus is useless I think you’re missing the point that everything is political. The definition isn’t useless, it’s just forcing people to think about the consequences of their actions rather than purely thinking about the technology they’re working on.
    - hardware2win 5y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Ring https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Ring
      - iamacyborg 5y ago
        Maybe something software engineers should adopt.
- EnKopVand 5y ago
  There is something to what you’re saying, and things like what the EU is doing as a response to the impact or big American Tech companies is probably what is actually interesting to a lot of us. Because it directly impacts how we’re supposed to build solutions as we need to implement more and more bureaucracy into the way we handle data, often in ways, that we need a corporate lawyer to audit because we’re software engineers. Note that I’m not saying this is good or bad, but I do think it’s interesting because it impacts us. What I don’t personally think is interesting is American politics. The sort of thing where there are two sides, or anything where anyone might write “liberal”. As a European, where we have multiple parties work together, and where many what Americans consider “liberal” is basically the ultra Christian Right wing, is sort weird and uninteresting. Not that I don’t think things like identity politics and what not aren’t important, but maybe not something to be discussed here on HN.
hgterrell 5y ago
There are many software engineers here. Most large companies or software projects are overtly political regarding the culture wars since at least 2016 and brutally force speech and thought upon their employees (they diligently avoid economic issues in politics of course). HN provides a way to escape that. The discussion is not always partisan; many people point out hypocrisy and greed of people who pretend to have pure motives. Those are facts if you follow the money, power structures and inaction on real issues that are obscured by beautiful words.
tomohawk 5y ago
The rule should be ammended: Off-topic: partisan politics Almost everything is political. For example, the very existence of large tech monopolies is political. What they do or don't do is political. There are plenty of things related to this we can talk about that are political, but the real problem is being partisan about it. edit: If you want to up/down vote in a non-partisan way, up vote comments as to whether they are interesting or likely to lead to interesting discussion rather than just because you agree with them. Reserve downvotes for comments that are uninteresting, diversionary, partisan, etc. I often post articles that I personally disagree with, but which are interesting and I am interested in what the HN community might have to say about them.
pera 5y ago
> Talking about politics used to be avoided here I don't think this is true, take a look at the top posts a decade and so ago: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateEnd=1325376000&dateRange=custom&dateStart=946684800&page=0&prefix=true&query=&sort=byPopularity&type=story https://hn.algolia.com/?dateEnd=1325376000&dateRange=custom&... A few examples: - Paul Graham: SOPA Supporting Companies No Longer Allowed At YC Demo Day (1716 points) - A new approach to China (1145 points) - GoDaddy supports SOPA, redditor proposes "Move your Domain Day" (1103 points) - Enough Is Enough (1019 points)
ineedasername 5y ago
I agree to an extent, but we're also at a point where politics have spilled over into areas where they were a little less common previously. 20+ years ago it was political when Microsoft was in its antitrust fight. Right now, just one example-- social media account bans-- is not only very political, it is extremely partisan and polarizing as well. It is practically impossible to talk about the issue without touching on some aspect of political/social values. So, it makes sense that politics come up more often because they now intersect more often with technology (or at least much more visibly) than they have previously. Unfortunately a lot of people don't engage constructively in conversations like that, ones where two different viewpoints may come down to core values that are taken as axiomatic. I think HN does a lot better than other venues when discussing these things but I also see a heck of a lot more comments flagged dead with awful, insulting and vile language that are every bit as bad as the worst you'd find anywhere on Reddit.

dang 5y ago

HN isn't more political now than it used to be. Arguments about HN getting more political / getting ruined by politics go all the way back to 2008 at least. This is a common enough misconception that I put some effort into writing a standard post for it some years ago—maybe we should put it in the FAQ, I don't know: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17014869 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17014869 One has to be careful not to fall prey to whatever bias it is that always makes it feel like things are getting worse.

icelancer 5y ago

Agreed. Would be pleased if they were all deleted, automatically if possible.

technocratius 5y ago

I agree and would be in favor of more heavy moderation on this. I strongly suspect HN will descend into a kind off reddit if this is not put a halt to. Curious to hear the views of the HN mods on this, but I expect they won't publicly engage in that discussion.

keerthiko 5y ago

I think it's simply a reflection of the shift of how educated society engages with political topics. If it affects quality of life of humans, it is political. This has always been true, it's fundamentally the point of politics. However, the effects on the QoL of many humans is not a concern to those of us who have the privilege to simply look away and not notice a difference to our own quality of life. This privileged demo has drastically shrunk (ie, politics directly and noticeably impacts the QoL of far more people) today, mostly because the rest of the people have deservedly been given more of a voice. Policy in its present state can mean the difference between life and death for many people who happily steered clear of "politics" 5 years ago, and talking about it is an option for people who were silenced and closeted 10 years ago. Even those of us who wilfully try to plug their ears and come up a system of rules and restricted topics that are "political" and "to be avoided" will find it incredibly hard to enforce, because someone or other will break the rule, and it's physically impossible for everyone else to keep their peace until a moderator brings the banhammer. The world is going through shared turmoil right now and politics is naturally a first stop to look for society-level resolutions, or at least adjustments to existing rules to improve QoL.

fauigerzigerk 5y ago
I agree that it's not possible to steer clear of politics. But there is more than one way to discuss politics and political aspects related to hacking and entrepreneurship (such as markets, oligopolies, net neutrality, copyrights, patents, encryption, etc) One way is to focus on difficult questions, on the inevitable trade-offs and on interesting, perhaps less conventional solutions. These debates are supposed to make people think. The other is to declare all questions settled and focus on rhetorical tactics to suppress the enemy. Stop thinking, start acting, crush the evil enemy, it's about life and death! In my opinion, this latter form of politics should be kept off HN. Thinking is not a luxury that we can no longer afford once decisions become important to people's lives. It's a necessity at all times and it needs space.
- giantg2 5y ago
  "political aspects related to hacking and entrepreneurship (such as markets, oligopolies, net neutrality, copyrights, patents, encryption, etc)" I agree that if it's related like these topics, that it has a place here. One thing that is on here often is the talk about housing density and zoning. I don't think that has a technical tie-in to entrepreneurship or hacking. That said, I don't really mind as long as the conversation occurs with an open mind and people are bringing new ideas to the table and not just parroting the mainstream takes.
kortilla 5y ago
I disagree, I think it’s a reflection of lack of critical thinking skills when it comes to political topics. People are so polarized now they have lost the ability to discuss nuance, see the other side, or really compromise at all. Everything is couched in terms of “with us or against us” extremist dichotomies much like the one hiding in the undertone of your post. Of course everyone thinks their political views are critical to life the same way people think their religion is important. It’s still super rude to bring up religion in an orthogonal topic and it’s still super rude to do the same with politics.
- giantg2 5y ago

ksec 5y ago

>over the last couple of years It stated in ~2015. I used think politics in itself should be avoided, unless it is related to Tech. So the best place to start would be to flag any submission that has nothing to do with Tech. We cant avoid politics that has to do with Tech though, App Store guidelines and regulation, Social Media and Internet, China and Russia usage of Tech.

simonh 5y ago
>We cant avoid politics that has to do with Tech though, App Store guidelines and regulation, Social Media and Internet, China and Russia usage of Tech. That's everything then. Tech platforms have become the primary channels for the discussion of everything, particularly politics, which makes all political issues tech issues.
- xigoi 5y ago
  This is like saying that you need your body to talk about politics, which makes all political issues anatomical issues.
twoodfin 5y ago
I’d argue it really started when Edward Snowden was on a plane somewhere over the Atlantic. HN was wall-to-wall with updates and rumors that, frankly, were not particularly interesting, informative or thought-provoking. But the ideological valence of the story was clearly more important. We got a mini version of this more recently in the Net Neutrality wars. It’s funny how both of those stories turned out in the long run.

slim 5y ago

that was short sighted when the forum was started. it's a forum about tech and entrepreneurship, so politics are the main concern. it's as if bloomberg had a policy of talking about finance only and not politics.

6thaccount 5y ago

buro9 5y ago

Everything is political, you can't pretend it's not. You may deny it for as long as possible, but people see through that. Technology is political. Whether it's the nature of architecture (centralised Vs decentralised), or the nature of transparency (proprietary Vs FOSS). It's all political, imagining that we can fully pretend it's not would be a challenge. The key is to keep the debate civil, reasoned, rational, respectful.

Sirened 5y ago
Being able to plug your ears and call a field apolitical is a matter of your position in society or in your sub community. There's the joke that goes "what are the two sexes? Male and political", and it really does have a grain of truth to it.
isitmadeofglass 5y ago
How a BVH is implemented is not political. Being hyperbolic is counter productive to a discussion centered around the site guidelines.
AlchemistCamp 5y ago
That’s not a very useful frame. One could just as easily claim that everything is philosophical, that everything is scientific, that everything is artistic, or that everything is mathematical. If you squint hard enough, sure, you can apply the adjective you want to just about anything you want. That doesn’t mean that the adjective has no meaning.
- bryanrasmussen 5y ago
  I don't think you can say that everything is maniacal without a lot of explanation afterwards and most people not getting whatever point you're trying to make, but sure, for the broader adjectives used to describe core parts of the human experience, everything that humans do or perceive will in some way relate to these.
- buro9 5y ago
  It's not trying to be disingenuous. I ran a cycling forum and thought it could be without politics, but cyclists died in road traffic incident in London that turned out to be predominantly female cyclists due to heavy goods vehicles, and over time I had to relent... it is policies that shape the city planning, the construction industry regulations (trucks with significant blind spots)... and that these deaths were preventable, people were right to be angry, and that a cycling forum couldn't exist without a political element. I ran a music forum and thought it could be without politics, but music is art and art reflects the feelings of those on council estates and in poverty, with hard backgrounds, and addictions. They are shaped by their environment and through the art attempt to document and also shape those environments. Even for a mostly apolitical band a single song touched upon rape and opened the door to debates on rape culture and the low prosecution rate and the even lower reporting rate. A music forum that tried it's best to avoid politics couldn't exist without a political element. And here on hacker news, that new app that is in the YC batch that allows someone to sofa surf... that's political but you just didn't know it at the time. AirBnB and so many other companies, apps, tools... have leveraged the gaps in local policies and law to fuel their margins and stock value. It is very difficult to say that even this site could exist without a political element when a lot of the technology and companies that have come about it impact so many people globally in ways that only political and legal tools can protect. I don't really believe this site can exist without a political element. The only question (IMHO) is whether those discussions can be conducted civilly, with respect and openness, non-adversarially, and with empathy as much as possible.

jl6 5y ago

But one person’s irrefutable facts are another person’s politics, so it’s hard to separate the two. Better IMHO to focus on keeping it civil rather than try to ban topics (which itself is another act of politics).

dcposch 5y ago

Political debate on HN has become unavoidable because tech itself has been politicized. Of course on some level it always was, "everything is political" etc, but a decade ago most participants saw tech as broadly neutral. What was the political valence of Etherpad or Foursquare? Today, engineers are asked to implement things like the "inclusivity warnings" that just shipped in Google Docs. The scope of "content moderation" has expanded dramatically. Founders are often explicitly partisan in one direction or another. And the new engagement goes in both directions. The five most valuable companies on earth are all West Coast tech cos now. Political actors of all types are watching and trying to harness or control tech to a much greater extent than last decade.

sgt 5y ago
To a degree yes, but you don't have to (or shouldn't debate) specific political parties, or whether Trump is better than Biden, etc.
einpoklum 5y ago
> most participants saw tech as broadly neutral. ... What was the political valence of Etherpad or Foursquare? While it's quite probably that most participants _saw_ it as mostly-neutral, I would claim that was obviously a mis-conception. In 2012, the popularity of smartphones was already having significant cultural effects, effects on alienation and isolation vs interaction of people in public spaces, etc. And that's just one of innumerable examples. FOSS vs. commercial software - definitely a political question, already 40 years ago and even earlier. Energy production and conversion technology - lots of geopolitics depends on who needs how much fossil fuel energy. etc. etc. And when a tech issue has significant political ramifications, you also have interest-holders involved in promoting or trying to block it, making an effort to inculcate the public with certain ideological views on the issue etc.
iamacyborg 5y ago
> The five most valuable companies on earth are all West Coast tech cos now You’re forgetting saudi aramco.
- 5y ago

snomad 5y ago

There is a school of thought, primarily from critical theorists and their derivatives, that proposes constant agitation, there is no neutral. E.g. Kendi's anti-racist. As this school of thought has taken root in schools and media, political discussion has expanded to encompass more and more of life. It is the intended result. Fair to say they have been wildly successful.

sealeck 5y ago

> I hate the indifferent. I believe that living means taking sides. Those who really live cannot help being a citizen and a partisan. Indifference and apathy are parasitism, perversion, not life. That is why I hate the indifferent. > The indifference is the deadweight of history. The indifference operates with great power on history. The indifference operates passively, but it operates. It is fate, that which cannot be counted on. It twists programs and ruins the best-conceived plans. It is the raw material that ruins intelligence. That what happens, the evil that weighs upon all, happens because the human mass abdicates to their will; allows laws to be promulgated that only the revolt could nullify, and leaves men that only a mutiny will be able to overthrow to achieve the power. - Antonio Gramsci

colordrops 5y ago
The choice isn't often so clear cut. In fact I'll take a side here and say that the idea pushed by this quote is actually one of the most poisonous aspects of American culture at the moment. You are either "red" or "blue" or wasting time with your apathy. No, that's utter BS.
- Ntrails 5y ago
  I would interpret that quote slightly differently. Not making a decision is, in itself, a decision with consequences. Indifference is a powerful choice with real consequences to society, just like delaying an important decision can take it out of your hands etc. The side doesn't have to be red or blue, but anything is better than "who cares"
  - notreallyserio 5y ago
    > Not making a decision is, in itself, a decision with consequences. And this is why so much energy is spent convincing you that your vote doesn't matter or that both sides are the same, etc.
    - colordrops 5y ago

alimov 5y ago

Yeah HN of 2012ish timeframe was very different. Even Reddit didn’t seem nearly as popular. I think this goes for everything (not just forums), but the more popular a forum becomes the worse the content seems to get. I would like to say that the mods and community here have been unreasonably good at keeping up a level of quality that would likely have been long gone any place else.

matthewmacleod 5y ago

Yeah. I’d like to avoid a cliché “this forum has changed over time and that is bad!!!” argument - but it definitely does feel like the tone of many discussions is different. I find myself rolling my eyes in frustration and being taken in by it way too often. It’s up for debate if that’s a change in the discussion, or a change in me. I’ve taken to trying to just immediately click “hide” on any article I see on the homepage that sounds like it might get anywhere near anything controversial - removing the temptation to engage unconstructively completely. And the same with comments to some extent - if there’s a culture-war trigger-phrase in a comment, just hide the tree and move on. That’s getting harder though - I wouldn’t have expected an article about Netflix subscriber growth to end up with a bunch of top-level comments about “woke politics ruining tech”, for example. It’s often kind for hard to avoid even if you are trying. And it’s not like “politics” as a subject could be dismissed either. The thing is that articles about Musk buying Twitter or Google making controversial auto-correct suggestions or whatever are inherently both tech and politics. I don’t know how you avoid that - but the atmosphere definitely makes me want to avoid participating all together.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

bryanrasmussen 5y ago

I have to say I have not experienced this, the opposite actually in that I have posted some articles that were shut down quite quickly because they had a political aspect. I personally am a little upset about it because if you cannot discuss political things it indicates a weakness in the platform, but on the other hand maybe it is necessary to avoid it to keep HN relatively amicable.

idkwhoiam 5y ago

Politics in tech is as old as the tabs vs spaces debate

hannob 5y ago

I honestly never understood what people expect who want tech "without politics". Technology is a crucial development impacting society. Of course discussing tech is political. How could it not be?

hardware2win 5y ago
Sure if you work at faamg then yea, but random ass / small computer oriented company has nothing political. 0therwise your definition makes everything political, thus is useless
- iamacyborg 5y ago
  > 0therwise your definition makes everything political, thus is useless I think you’re missing the point that everything is political. The definition isn’t useless, it’s just forcing people to think about the consequences of their actions rather than purely thinking about the technology they’re working on.
  - hardware2win 5y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Ring https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Ring
    - iamacyborg 5y ago
      Maybe something software engineers should adopt.
EnKopVand 5y ago
There is something to what you’re saying, and things like what the EU is doing as a response to the impact or big American Tech companies is probably what is actually interesting to a lot of us. Because it directly impacts how we’re supposed to build solutions as we need to implement more and more bureaucracy into the way we handle data, often in ways, that we need a corporate lawyer to audit because we’re software engineers. Note that I’m not saying this is good or bad, but I do think it’s interesting because it impacts us. What I don’t personally think is interesting is American politics. The sort of thing where there are two sides, or anything where anyone might write “liberal”. As a European, where we have multiple parties work together, and where many what Americans consider “liberal” is basically the ultra Christian Right wing, is sort weird and uninteresting. Not that I don’t think things like identity politics and what not aren’t important, but maybe not something to be discussed here on HN.

hgterrell 5y ago

There are many software engineers here. Most large companies or software projects are overtly political regarding the culture wars since at least 2016 and brutally force speech and thought upon their employees (they diligently avoid economic issues in politics of course). HN provides a way to escape that. The discussion is not always partisan; many people point out hypocrisy and greed of people who pretend to have pure motives. Those are facts if you follow the money, power structures and inaction on real issues that are obscured by beautiful words.

tomohawk 5y ago

The rule should be ammended: Off-topic: partisan politics Almost everything is political. For example, the very existence of large tech monopolies is political. What they do or don't do is political. There are plenty of things related to this we can talk about that are political, but the real problem is being partisan about it. edit: If you want to up/down vote in a non-partisan way, up vote comments as to whether they are interesting or likely to lead to interesting discussion rather than just because you agree with them. Reserve downvotes for comments that are uninteresting, diversionary, partisan, etc. I often post articles that I personally disagree with, but which are interesting and I am interested in what the HN community might have to say about them.

pera 5y ago

> Talking about politics used to be avoided here I don't think this is true, take a look at the top posts a decade and so ago: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateEnd=1325376000&dateRange=custom&dateStart=946684800&page=0&prefix=true&query=&sort=byPopularity&type=story https://hn.algolia.com/?dateEnd=1325376000&dateRange=custom&... A few examples: - Paul Graham: SOPA Supporting Companies No Longer Allowed At YC Demo Day (1716 points) - A new approach to China (1145 points) - GoDaddy supports SOPA, redditor proposes "Move your Domain Day" (1103 points) - Enough Is Enough (1019 points)

ineedasername 5y ago

I agree to an extent, but we're also at a point where politics have spilled over into areas where they were a little less common previously. 20+ years ago it was political when Microsoft was in its antitrust fight. Right now, just one example-- social media account bans-- is not only very political, it is extremely partisan and polarizing as well. It is practically impossible to talk about the issue without touching on some aspect of political/social values. So, it makes sense that politics come up more often because they now intersect more often with technology (or at least much more visibly) than they have previously. Unfortunately a lot of people don't engage constructively in conversations like that, ones where two different viewpoints may come down to core values that are taken as axiomatic. I think HN does a lot better than other venues when discussing these things but I also see a heck of a lot more comments flagged dead with awful, insulting and vile language that are every bit as bad as the worst you'd find anywhere on Reddit.