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Nearly half of Mariupol has suffered grave damage
- melling 4y ago“Satellite images show that 90% of ruined buildings were residential” Are they using artillery on cities?
- brink 4y agoYes
- Grazester 4y agoIsn't that what the media has been extensively reporting on for the last month!
- j4yav 4y agoThere’s a surprising number of people around who seem to think there’s no actual war happening and it’s all just visual effects. It’s all oriented around how a shadowy elite is using it to bring in some great reset, and reveal themselves as lizard people or something. I’ve thought about offering to show them personal evidence of dead family and friends in Ukraine, but I don’t think that will really change anything. There’s always some excuse or way for them to deny it.
- thelock85 4y agoThere are a surprising number of conspiracy theorists out there, but also lots of people desensitized or overwhelmed in the Information Age. The rubble and ruins of war across the Middle East, state brutality of all scales from China to the U.S., unprecedented destruction by weather events... all delivered to your screen in near real-time then 24/7 pundit-ized until the next event... non stop for over a decade. If you grew up in this cesspool of information, you tune out. If you yearn for the ignorance of yesteryear, conspiracies are easier to digest than critically analyzing the deluge of info... and that doesn't take into account all of the people who are just out there mostly concerned everyday with food and shelter for themselves and family. To your point... As I started to write this, a nearby group of senior citizens meeting for morning coffee (in East Bay, CA) started fawning over this "refrigerator magnet set that helps you construct your own conspiracy".
- naoqj 4y agoI wish one could believe the media. Not saying that this particular report is not believable, just that "the media already said so" is not an argument in 2022.
- winkeltripel 4y agoDo you think that these videos or photos are faked? Do you think there is a real war in the Ukraine?
- naoqj 4y agoWell, there clearly is a conflict going on in Ukraine. But I don’t think the media is on my side. They are with the powerful, which have every incentive to lie to me to justify the inflation, escalation of the conflict, etc.
- melling 4y agoI’m not sure what *specific* weapons have been used on cities. Usually we see cruise missiles going into buildings, for example. Lots of video of tanks too. I think of artillery as less precise, with the idea of using it to indiscriminately level a large area. It’s fired from 10-20 miles away, with a few rounds a minute. Howitzers, for instance, will be important in eastern Ukrainian https://www.defense.gov/News/News-Stories/Article/Article/3006912/more-howitzers-artillery-rounds-uavs-headed-to-ukraine/ https://www.defense.gov/News/News-Stories/Article/Article/30...
- HideousKojima 4y agoRussia uses a lot of unguided rockets as artillery https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/BM-21_Grad https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/BM-21_Grad
- chrisseaton 4y ago> I think of artillery as less precise, with the idea of using it to indiscriminately level a large area. Even conventional unguided howitzer artillery is more than accurate enough to be effective against things as small as vehicles.
- Workaccount2 4y agoArtillery has become very precise. The mechanics and effects are well defined and calculated. Artillery also isn't just big guns, it includes those trucks you see shooting huge volleys of (dumb) missiles off their bed.
- CabSauce 4y agoThe reporting that I've seen claims that Russia doesn't have enough guided ordinance, so they're using lots of unguided ordinance.
- hef19898 4y agoModern artillery pieces are incredibly accurate. And if self-propelled and equiped with an auto-loader capable of rapid fire. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzerhaubitze_2000 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzerhaubitze_2000 Up to 3 roubds in 9 seconds, 10 - 13 roubds per minute continously. Depeding on the shells accuracy can be around 1 m per 48 km. Arguably, that's among the most advanced, and expensive systems. The accuracy comes from the shells, so in theory a lot of manually loaded artillery pieces should be able to achieve the accuracy.
- notimetorelax 4y agoI’d say they use it mostly on cities…
- micromacrofoot 4y agoyes, we also have satellite images of mass graves
- hdjjhhvvhga 4y agoI haven't heard about that. Do you have a link?
- Inversechi 4y agohttps://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/apr/21/russian-forces-accused-of-secret-burials-of-civilians-in-mariupol https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/apr/21/russian-forces...
- monkeybutton 4y agohttps://www.npr.org/sections/pictureshow/2022/04/22/1094234731/possible-mass-graves-near-mariupol-shown-in-satellite-images https://www.npr.org/sections/pictureshow/2022/04/22/10942347...
- coward-guy 4y agoThey bury Ukrainian soldiers to avoid diseases
- ohgodplsno 4y agoThis is russian propaganda to justify mass graves, indiscriminate civilian killings and incinerating bodies to hide massacres.
- coward-guy 4y agoI couldn't find any proofs... The statement "incinerating bodies" sounds like Ukrainian propaganda.
- stjohnswarts 4y ago
- ramesh31 4y ago>Are they using artillery on cities? Are you actually living under a rock?
- breakfastduck 4y agoThey've been shooting unarmed civilians too.
- Comevius 4y agoThe Russians shot 410 civilians just in Bucha alone. When they are not shooting and raping civilians, they use unguided munitions against cities.
- yonaguska 4y ago
- EB-Barrington 4y agoYou're insane. Hello from Kyiv.
- andrewinardeer 4y agoStrange you can make the claims while "on mobile" but can't link to sources because you're also "on mobile".
- bluejekyll 4y agoHere’s a source that contradicts your narrative: https://www.bbc.com/news/60981238 https://www.bbc.com/news/60981238 Satellite images from before the Russian army left the town of Bucha.
- yonaguska 4y agoI've seen the satellite images. I've seen the pictures. And I've seen the video with the disturbing audio. I wish Twitter didn't delete so many things. So I've seen two sets of contradictory evidence. So I guess, pick and choose your narrative? It's not that simple. I'm inclined to believe the videos taken by the Ukrainain soldiers and the pictures rather than the satellite imagery. After Assange, I have nearly zero trust in images produced by a state controlled entity.
- mytailorisrich 4y agoThis is nothing new, but especially in urban warfare all buildings become targets. In Mariupol fighting is going on within the city so that's what happens. If you look at previous historical examples, the same result ensues. Stalingrad being a very famous one, Berlin as well, Beirut in Lebanon during the civil war, recently Aleppo in Syria. Before that you can find pictures of the American Civil War. Dresden and Tokyo were flattened during WWII without any actual ground fighting going on there, just large scale air bombings with incendiary bombs... In conventional warfare since at least the 19th century, cities get flattened. In the media, and judging by the reactions to this comment, people are driven emotionally in the moment for the purpose of manufacturing public opinion (i.e. war propaganda) but it's always useful to keep distances and keep some perspective. Especially since this is the first large-ish scale conventional warfare in some time, at least with this level of media coverage.
- tut-urut-utut 4y ago
- stjohnswarts 4y agoPeople are emotional because Russian is attempting to genocide a country for no good reason. Why wouldn't one be emotional about that?
- tyingq 4y ago>Are they using artillery on cities? Yes, also aircraft dropped bombs, missiles, rockets, mortars, direct fire from tanks, etc.
- toyg 4y agoYeah, probably both for "shock and awe" purposes and to reduce the risks of guerrilla ambush. The thing is that they've done it really badly, so they've suffered all the propaganda penalties without convincingly getting the upper hand. And they've killed a lot of civilians too, obviously.
- BenoitEssiambre 4y agoHere's Noah Smith's twitter list if you want to follow more closely: https://twitter.com/i/lists/1492242776825552896 https://twitter.com/i/lists/1492242776825552896
- chrisseaton 4y ago> Are they using artillery on cities? What on earth did you think they were using it for? Absolutely baffling that someone could not be aware of this.
- myth_drannon 4y agothey are using everything except tactical nukes
- KMag 4y agoGiven what the Russian military did to Grozny in the Second Chechen War and what they did to Aleppo during the recent Syrian civil war, it's hard to dismiss the reports of intentional depopulation of cities as an intentional Russian military tactic. In isolation it would be fair to be sceptical of the intercepted conversations where commanders are calling in strikes on residential areas, but this is a recurring pattern with the Russian military. It's important to distinguish here between the Russian military and the Russian people. Conflating the two feeds into the Putinist propaganda that Russia will be hated in the West no matter what it does.
- alienicecream 4y ago
- tomjen3 4y agoYes. That is the operating rules, because Russia isn't competent to do anything else, but even they can attach an apartment block.
- jdrc 4y agoyeah there are videos showing them basically just shooting what's left for fun https://twitter.com/Lyla_lilas/status/1514205275363987459 https://twitter.com/Lyla_lilas/status/1514205275363987459
- notimetorelax 4y agoArchived link: https://archive.ph/8IUjq https://archive.ph/8IUjq
- imwillofficial 4y ago
- hdjjhhvvhga 4y agoBoth. They do very badly in terms of logistics, but they still have a lot of munitions for the artillery, especially their unguided Grad units that basically destroy everything indiscriminately.
- j4yav 4y agoAlso, Mariupol is close to the border and so doesn’t require as much logistics as Kyiv, which is in the center of the country.
- EB-Barrington 4y agoPoint taken, however Kyiv is not in the center.
- j4yav 4y agoSlightly northwest center? I’ve done a lot of driving all over Ukraine, it “feels” central to me. But that’s not really the point I was making. It’s quite a bit further from Russia than Mariupol, and much closer to the center of the country.
- tenuousemphasis 4y agoJust to be clear, are you under the impression that leveling residential areas is how you win a war?
- newaccount2021 4y ago
- newsclues 4y agoIt is one strategy to victory yes. There is thousands of years of military history from all sides employing the same things. War sucks.
- EB-Barrington 4y agoHow can Russians live with themselves. One of my neighbours is from Mariupol, this is truly devastating for him and hundreds of thousands of others. Truly, barbarian tactics. Not just Mariupol - I just finished speaking with my neighbour (fixer for international media org) who interviewed a young girl not far from Kyiv. The sister and mother of the girl were beaten and raped until they died, by Russian soldiers. The girl was forced to watch. She then lived in her apartment several days, with the corpses, until she felt safe to escape. Most Russians support this war. I'll leave it to you to find any reliable sources that disagree with that statement. Russia is a very, very, sick nation.This is why Ukraine will never surrender. Can you imagine surrendering, and your "reward" is to live under the Russian regime? BTW, I live in Kyiv, I'm not Ukrainian.
- rory_isAdonk 4y agoAll the reasons why Russia will eventually lose this conflict one way or another.
- EB-Barrington 4y agoTotally agree. Ukraine will never, ever, give up. The price will be high, but there is no other choice.
- coward-guy 4y agoBecause the UK and US will not allow a peace treaty between Russia and Ukraine, they want "to fight to the last Ukrainian standing".
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- EB-Barrington 4y agoUkrainians will indeed fight to the last Ukrainian standing, you tend to do that when you have barbarian Russians raping and murdering your populace and you would prefer not to live under their purely evil dictatorship. (that really doesn't require any encouragement from the UK, or the US) (I note your account was created in response to the Russian invasion - your motives are very transparently pro-Kremlin)
- myspy 4y agoEvery Russian should be ashamed, what their leader is doing right now. And in case they support it should reflect on their ethics.
- tosser0001 4y agoThere is a Twitter satire account that said something I thought was subtly profound: If you ever wondered what you would have done to stop Hitler, you're doing it now.
- goodoldneon 4y agoThere's a massive difference in magnitude between Putin and Hitler, but point taken
- nugget 4y agoYou're comparing Putin as of April 22nd, 2022 to Hitler at the end of his life. We have no idea what Putin's next steps are.
- goodoldneon 4y agoThe quote said "Hitler" and not "Hitler when he invaded Poland but before he killed 10+ million innocent civilians"
- Aeolun 4y agoIs there? It’s not like we’re in any position to find out until the armies roll into Russia to find the destruction camps. Or the war settles down and Ukraine can do a full inventory and find tens of thousands of people missing or dead. If Russia has really been cremating remains in Mariupol, people may remain missing forever.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- EB-Barrington 4y ago
- openasocket 4y agoThe level of destruction is bad for the Russians on so many levels. The humanitarian cost, the damage to Russia's reputation internationally, but also tactically. You think it's hard clearing large buildings? Try clearing a pile of rubble. Endless nooks and crannies for defenders to hide in.
- sofixa 4y agoAnd they should know this, they're the ones that were on the defending side in Stalingrad and so many other places. That's the stuff nightmares are made of.
- msarrel 4y agoWow! That's a lot of damage to graves. They should be ashamed of themselves.