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As a long time Debian user I'm reluctant to criticize developer ergonomics as I'm not an _active_ contributor. That being said, _as a user_, I've not had any is

by b5n 4y ago

As a long time Debian user I'm reluctant to criticize developer ergonomics as I'm not an _active_ contributor. That being said, _as a user_, I've not had any issue locating and using non-free firmware when required, and I would be disappointed to see the project change course by including non-free components in an offical manner. Removing the slight inconvenience (literally clicking a link _on the installation page_ and downloading the firmware included image) further dilutes the project's free software position and will encourage users to install software that does not respect their freedoms. If users never brush up against the inconvenience they'll be much less likely to seek out hardware alternatives or even educate themselves on the topic at all, this is damaging to the community as a whole. I know I'm in the minority, and expect my opinion to be weighted accordingly, but principle is a key factor I use when choosing anything - including software. My loyalty to Debian would be significantly impacted by such a change. Is Debian missing projected growth KPI's or shedding users? Is this a key hurdle to onboarding new contributors? I'm aware there may be other considerations that those actively participating in the community or leadership may be aware of that I am not, and I might be ignorant to the full value of the proposition. Debian is amazing and I have the upmost respect for everyone involved over the decades, but a move in a direction that weakens its position on non-free components would most likely drive me to using Guix exclusively.

devdao 4y ago
Principles matter!
- throwaway48375 4y ago
  They are the only reason I use Debian at all.
  - Gigachad 4y ago
    This could be seen as a benefit and a downside. It’s basically suggesting that you find other distros nicer to use but chose to use the less nice one due to principals. Most users will pick the nicer to use one.
    - zrm 4y ago
      Debian is one of the top Linux distributions, so there are empirically a large number of people not being deterred. And many of the other top Linux distributions are Debian derivatives which both participate in the community and provide the alternate experience. Upholding its principles is the way Debian distinguishes itself. If you don't like it, use Mint or something.
      - Gigachad 4y ago
        Debian is a great project I know. But the comment that they only use debian for its principals directly suggests they would use something else if principals were not considered. Suggesting the other distros are better for their uses. Anecdotally I don't think I have ever seen a debian desktop user, and I wouldn't pick it for desktop either because they don't make it easy to get everything working like other distros do where you check a box on install to include the proprietary bits.
        donalhunt 4y ago
        There are dozens of us!! Have been using Debian as my daily driver for 5+ years on both desktops and laptops. No issues at all though I did spend some time on gnome shell to get it closer to what I prefer (multiple desktops, alt-tab behaviour, etc)
        jcelerier 4y ago
        The engineering school I went to used Debian on every desktop
        maratc 4y ago
        Was it because of the principals of your school?
        jcelerier 4y ago
        I have no idea but it stayed through many staff changes. The university I went to next (U. Bordeaux, ~50k students) 's comp. sci. department computers were also running Debian iirc.
ggm 4y ago
I have had some doubts about Dell installs which had non-free blob dependencies which were "insert USB stick and hit enter" -when I am doing remote install via virtual media. Mainly this was for broadcom ethernets. I found in the end, proceeding to install and then post-install patching was easier but tedious. If you have access to USB slots, this is a non-problem. If it were possible to find and make and maintain "CD with a bit of the blobset glued in" I'd be happier frankly.
- pabs3 4y ago
  The CDs with blobs have been available for years, the post is mostly about making those CDs the default user experience.
- b5n 4y ago
  > if it were possible to find and make and maintain "CD with a bit of the blobset glued in" I'd be happier frankly. As mentioned in my original comment, those images already exist, and are linked to on the Debian installation page.
  - ggm 4y ago
    Skim reading earns dismerit points! Thanks for pointing this out, I'll try harder to use them next install I do.
    - squarefoot 4y ago
      You probably want to keep this link at hand as the Debian main page hides everything but the standard stock image. https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/images-including-firmware/ https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/image...
      - ggm 4y ago
        Thanks!
amanwithnoplan 4y ago
As a long time non-contributing Debian/Ubuntu user (I hop between the two whenever one of them annoys me too much), I've had a lot of issues locating and using non-free firmware when required. For the longest time (since fixed), trying to use Wi-Fi in debian-installer simply didn't work, regardless whether I used the unofficial image or dumped the firmware debs on disk. Can't complain about that anymore since it's fixed. Now that Wi-Fi works when available at install-time, let's try to install a bog standard desktop system. Did you run the text installer or the graphical installer? If you used the text installer, you might be surprised to get an unescapable gray screen on an otherwise fully working booted system! Your video out doesn't work properly because kernel modesetting doesn't work without firmware or some mumbo jumbo like that. Your options are: - Run the graphical installer in the first place so that the GPU firmware is used/installed by the installer - Run a shell in the text installer and do "apt-install firmware-blah", a command which is only documented in a dusty unstyled html in a file cabinet hidden by a beware of leopard sign copyrighted 2010 - On boot up, use some relatively arcane GRUB magic (I'm just a user, so I have to look it up every time, okay?) to boot into some kind of safe non-graphical mode and install the GPU firmware (Bonus: the unofficial firmware-included disc image symlinks the firmware debs, so the image only works when you DD it. The most popular Windows disc writing software Rufus recommends writing disc images in ISO mode (file-by-file) so that you can use excess free space. If you're wondering why the firmware directory has a bunch of 0 byte files, that's why, and you need to switch to DD mode.)
fxtentacle 4y ago
I believe there should be an official non-free repository (akin to Ubuntu's) which users can enable offline, meaning it needs to be stored on the official CD. Enabling it should display a big scary warning about handing over partial control of your machine to greedy faceless megacorps who will throw you under the bus in a heartbeat if that makes them money. Maybe add an illustration of a robot terminator, to really drive the point home. Yes, I agree that a default Debian configuration should be clean. But I also know the reality of needing at least Atheros (Wifi), Intel (Ethernet), and NVIDIA firmware blobs to get my tower to boot correctly. Not including any firmware repository on the CD or on a fully installed system is just a recipe for users to get frustrated while they are trying to follow a half-outdated tutorial on one of those spammy tech support blogs. So in my opinion, the most common blobs should be cached by default, but not activated by default. If the machine boots without them, they can be deleted upon first reboot. If not, we can let the user decide if they are willing to compromise their principles in order to boot the system ;)
- mschuster91 4y ago
  I get the trouble for networking chipsets, but not for the video card - all x86 systems should be able to fall back to ye goode olde days of at least a text console using the old BIOS interface. A default setup of any Linux distribution should in my opinion at least automatically detect if there is something lacking for a framebuffer console or a GUI, and fall back to a plain console.
  - Nextgrid 4y ago
    In some cases there might be bugs there. Back in my early Linux days I had an issue where the default Ubuntu/Debian installer would come up with a garbled display and I'd have to use `vga=...` or `nomodeset` (or similar, can't remember) to get a proper console going. Once installed I would install a package and it would "just work". A way to directly boot into an environment with non-free firmware available could help and the user doesn't lose any more freedom if they're already determined to use non-free firmware post-install anyway.
  - julian-klode 4y ago
techie128 4y ago
> If users never brush up against the inconvenience they'll be much less likely to seek out hardware alternatives I think you got it backwards. Users will seek out SOFTWARE alternatives. They're easier to change than the hardware. They're likelier to go the Ubuntu or Linux Mint route than to die on a Debian hill.
- jeltz 4y ago
  Do we? I switched from Dell to Lenovo due to issues with drivers.
- marcosdumay 4y ago
  I do pick my hardware based on free software support. Life is too short to depend on people that don't want to support your use-case.
jklinger410 4y ago
> My loyalty to Debian would be significantly impacted by such a change. It's so funny that this doesn't affect you at all but merely making the platform more accessible "significantly impacts" your loyalty. Doesn't that mean your loyalty was conditional anyway? You are ready to jump ship if anything you don't like changes, even if it doesn't have anything to do with your system. Some loyalty.
- Hello71 4y ago
  the generous interpretation of their comment is that their loyalty is predicated on an understanding of shared values; if it transpires that the values are not, in fact, shared, then their relationship may require re-evaluation.
- seba_dos1 4y ago
  Depending on PoV, you can consider incorporating non-free stuff as making it less accessible.
pwdisswordfish9 4y ago
Debian is not the sort of project that would use ‘KPI’ unironically.
xioren00 4y ago
The non-free version is not official. The last time I used it, it came pre-installed with a bunch of Indonesian language bloat software that it not part of the official Debian install. This is not an acceptable middle ground.
- pabs3 4y ago
  That sounds like an issue that should not happen, please report a bug about it. The non-free version should be identical to the free version except for the installed firmware.

by b5n 4y ago

devdao 4y ago

Principles matter!

throwaway48375 4y ago
They are the only reason I use Debian at all.
- Gigachad 4y ago
  This could be seen as a benefit and a downside. It’s basically suggesting that you find other distros nicer to use but chose to use the less nice one due to principals. Most users will pick the nicer to use one.
  - zrm 4y ago
    Debian is one of the top Linux distributions, so there are empirically a large number of people not being deterred. And many of the other top Linux distributions are Debian derivatives which both participate in the community and provide the alternate experience. Upholding its principles is the way Debian distinguishes itself. If you don't like it, use Mint or something.
    - Gigachad 4y ago
      Debian is a great project I know. But the comment that they only use debian for its principals directly suggests they would use something else if principals were not considered. Suggesting the other distros are better for their uses. Anecdotally I don't think I have ever seen a debian desktop user, and I wouldn't pick it for desktop either because they don't make it easy to get everything working like other distros do where you check a box on install to include the proprietary bits.
      - donalhunt 4y ago
        There are dozens of us!! Have been using Debian as my daily driver for 5+ years on both desktops and laptops. No issues at all though I did spend some time on gnome shell to get it closer to what I prefer (multiple desktops, alt-tab behaviour, etc)
      - jcelerier 4y ago
        The engineering school I went to used Debian on every desktop
        maratc 4y ago
        Was it because of the principals of your school?
        jcelerier 4y ago
        I have no idea but it stayed through many staff changes. The university I went to next (U. Bordeaux, ~50k students) 's comp. sci. department computers were also running Debian iirc.

ggm 4y ago

I have had some doubts about Dell installs which had non-free blob dependencies which were "insert USB stick and hit enter" -when I am doing remote install via virtual media. Mainly this was for broadcom ethernets. I found in the end, proceeding to install and then post-install patching was easier but tedious. If you have access to USB slots, this is a non-problem. If it were possible to find and make and maintain "CD with a bit of the blobset glued in" I'd be happier frankly.

pabs3 4y ago
The CDs with blobs have been available for years, the post is mostly about making those CDs the default user experience.
b5n 4y ago
> if it were possible to find and make and maintain "CD with a bit of the blobset glued in" I'd be happier frankly. As mentioned in my original comment, those images already exist, and are linked to on the Debian installation page.
- ggm 4y ago
  Skim reading earns dismerit points! Thanks for pointing this out, I'll try harder to use them next install I do.
  - squarefoot 4y ago
    You probably want to keep this link at hand as the Debian main page hides everything but the standard stock image. https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/images-including-firmware/ https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/image...
    - ggm 4y ago
      Thanks!

amanwithnoplan 4y ago

As a long time non-contributing Debian/Ubuntu user (I hop between the two whenever one of them annoys me too much), I've had a lot of issues locating and using non-free firmware when required. For the longest time (since fixed), trying to use Wi-Fi in debian-installer simply didn't work, regardless whether I used the unofficial image or dumped the firmware debs on disk. Can't complain about that anymore since it's fixed. Now that Wi-Fi works when available at install-time, let's try to install a bog standard desktop system. Did you run the text installer or the graphical installer? If you used the text installer, you might be surprised to get an unescapable gray screen on an otherwise fully working booted system! Your video out doesn't work properly because kernel modesetting doesn't work without firmware or some mumbo jumbo like that. Your options are: - Run the graphical installer in the first place so that the GPU firmware is used/installed by the installer - Run a shell in the text installer and do "apt-install firmware-blah", a command which is only documented in a dusty unstyled html in a file cabinet hidden by a beware of leopard sign copyrighted 2010 - On boot up, use some relatively arcane GRUB magic (I'm just a user, so I have to look it up every time, okay?) to boot into some kind of safe non-graphical mode and install the GPU firmware (Bonus: the unofficial firmware-included disc image symlinks the firmware debs, so the image only works when you DD it. The most popular Windows disc writing software Rufus recommends writing disc images in ISO mode (file-by-file) so that you can use excess free space. If you're wondering why the firmware directory has a bunch of 0 byte files, that's why, and you need to switch to DD mode.)

fxtentacle 4y ago

I believe there should be an official non-free repository (akin to Ubuntu's) which users can enable offline, meaning it needs to be stored on the official CD. Enabling it should display a big scary warning about handing over partial control of your machine to greedy faceless megacorps who will throw you under the bus in a heartbeat if that makes them money. Maybe add an illustration of a robot terminator, to really drive the point home. Yes, I agree that a default Debian configuration should be clean. But I also know the reality of needing at least Atheros (Wifi), Intel (Ethernet), and NVIDIA firmware blobs to get my tower to boot correctly. Not including any firmware repository on the CD or on a fully installed system is just a recipe for users to get frustrated while they are trying to follow a half-outdated tutorial on one of those spammy tech support blogs. So in my opinion, the most common blobs should be cached by default, but not activated by default. If the machine boots without them, they can be deleted upon first reboot. If not, we can let the user decide if they are willing to compromise their principles in order to boot the system ;)

mschuster91 4y ago
I get the trouble for networking chipsets, but not for the video card - all x86 systems should be able to fall back to ye goode olde days of at least a text console using the old BIOS interface. A default setup of any Linux distribution should in my opinion at least automatically detect if there is something lacking for a framebuffer console or a GUI, and fall back to a plain console.
- Nextgrid 4y ago
  In some cases there might be bugs there. Back in my early Linux days I had an issue where the default Ubuntu/Debian installer would come up with a garbled display and I'd have to use `vga=...` or `nomodeset` (or similar, can't remember) to get a proper console going. Once installed I would install a package and it would "just work". A way to directly boot into an environment with non-free firmware available could help and the user doesn't lose any more freedom if they're already determined to use non-free firmware post-install anyway.
- julian-klode 4y ago

techie128 4y ago

> If users never brush up against the inconvenience they'll be much less likely to seek out hardware alternatives I think you got it backwards. Users will seek out SOFTWARE alternatives. They're easier to change than the hardware. They're likelier to go the Ubuntu or Linux Mint route than to die on a Debian hill.

jeltz 4y ago
Do we? I switched from Dell to Lenovo due to issues with drivers.
marcosdumay 4y ago
I do pick my hardware based on free software support. Life is too short to depend on people that don't want to support your use-case.

jklinger410 4y ago

> My loyalty to Debian would be significantly impacted by such a change. It's so funny that this doesn't affect you at all but merely making the platform more accessible "significantly impacts" your loyalty. Doesn't that mean your loyalty was conditional anyway? You are ready to jump ship if anything you don't like changes, even if it doesn't have anything to do with your system. Some loyalty.

Hello71 4y ago
the generous interpretation of their comment is that their loyalty is predicated on an understanding of shared values; if it transpires that the values are not, in fact, shared, then their relationship may require re-evaluation.
seba_dos1 4y ago
Depending on PoV, you can consider incorporating non-free stuff as making it less accessible.

pwdisswordfish9 4y ago

Debian is not the sort of project that would use ‘KPI’ unironically.

xioren00 4y ago

The non-free version is not official. The last time I used it, it came pre-installed with a bunch of Indonesian language bloat software that it not part of the official Debian install. This is not an acceptable middle ground.

pabs3 4y ago
That sounds like an issue that should not happen, please report a bug about it. The non-free version should be identical to the free version except for the installed firmware.