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To prevailing reasoning for not letting Catalunya decide that without involving the rest of Spain seems to be because Catalunya is one of the biggest contributo

To prevailing reasoning for not letting Catalunya decide that without involving the rest of Spain seems to be because Catalunya is one of the biggest contributor to the overall economy of Spain, so if Catalunya leaves Spain, it'll impact the entire country, not just Catalunya itself.

scns 5y ago
This. Same as in belgium. The part with lots of industry wants independence, the part without does not want them to leave.
zozbot234 5y ago
They are wealthy because they have high-quality policy-making and a less corrupt government than the other autonomous communities. Other parts of Spain could engage in reform efforts of their own and contribute just as much to the government budget. Why should this be an argument against Catalunya?
- capableweb 5y ago
  > Why should this be an argument against Catalunya? I have no stake in either outcome of independence happening or not, but I can definitely understand that some people can see it as problematic if one part of a bigger thing wants to leave without considering the other parts. I still think Catalunya should be able to decide themselves, just like the UK decided themselves if they wanna leave the EU. Forcing states to belong to other states is something I thought we left behind a long time ago.
- the_gipsy 5y ago
  - denton-scratch 5y ago
    > They have taken from the economy Exqueeze me? Catalunya is the region has been the greatest net contributor to the Spanish economy.
    - the_gipsy 5y ago
      You can't look at net contribution on its own. Catalonia didn't bootstrap itself into wealth just like that. There is infrastructure investment, which may be payed back net later. Other regions didn't get this treatment.
      - zozbot234 5y ago
        Infrastructure investment should not be an argument for imperialism. The British built plenty of railways in India too, doesn't mean they get to rule the country.
        the_gipsy 5y ago
        I did not say that Spain has a right to rule. I am saying that arguing around "net contributions" is moot (even contradictory) in the case of Catalonia and similar regions.
- pvaldes 5y ago
  > they have a less corrupt government than the other Yeah, sure. "In July 2014, Jordi Pujol confessed that for 34 years, including 23 as the President of Catalonia, he had maintained secret foreign bank accounts inherited from his father". "His children have amassed a fortune in private businesses that frequently did business and received contracts from the Catalan government" (The infamous 3% scandal). "They have investments in the tens of millions of dollars in Mexico, Panama and Argentina. Financial records show the movement of money between foreign banks in Andorra, Switzerland, Jersey, Cayman Islands and other tax havens in excess of €100 million". He and his seven children face charges for illicit association, money laundering, falsification of documents and seven different tax crimes. the prosecutor asks between that could compris between 28 and 7 years of jail. The wife has been recorded laundering money but has been exonerated by her problems of health. Totally not a godfather figure, for sure.
  - zozbot234 5y ago
    Pretty much. The fact that we can read about these things is what implies that the government is less corrupt. Sunlight is the best disinfectant.
    - pvaldes 5y ago
      Well, a much more desirable solution would be not having a corrupt government for most of the last decades. At least four of the last presidents of Cataluña (all either from the Pujol's party or their legacy) had been involved in a rich catalog of scams and frauds, including one fugitive in search and capture and two inhabilitated by repeatedly disobeying the laws that they should represent or spending public money in very questionable ways. There is material here for several godfather trilogies plus a police academy series. Is simply grotesque.
      - mejutoco 5y ago
        > ncluding one fugitive in search and capture While there has been corruption in all sides, this statement needs clarification. The search and capture issued to interpol was obeyed by Germany. Upon examination of Spain‘s reasons the court in Germany decided it was not enough proof to send Puigdemont back to Spain. If anything, this seems to contradict what one would think of when reading the above sentence without context.
ipaddr 5y ago
To force them to stay because other groups rely on money taken from them doesn't sound right. A similiar reasoning for keeping slavery existed in the US over similiar claims.
- pvaldes 5y ago
  Slavery is an unfortunate comparison. Barcelona made a lot of money in the antiquity by being a main port in the slave trade that lasted until the XIX century it seems. Much later than other places. The idea here would be more like: I rebuild your home, I spend a lot in infrastructures for you and now that you are rich you slam your door in my face.

scns 5y ago

This. Same as in belgium. The part with lots of industry wants independence, the part without does not want them to leave.

zozbot234 5y ago

They are wealthy because they have high-quality policy-making and a less corrupt government than the other autonomous communities. Other parts of Spain could engage in reform efforts of their own and contribute just as much to the government budget. Why should this be an argument against Catalunya?

capableweb 5y ago
> Why should this be an argument against Catalunya? I have no stake in either outcome of independence happening or not, but I can definitely understand that some people can see it as problematic if one part of a bigger thing wants to leave without considering the other parts. I still think Catalunya should be able to decide themselves, just like the UK decided themselves if they wanna leave the EU. Forcing states to belong to other states is something I thought we left behind a long time ago.
the_gipsy 5y ago
- denton-scratch 5y ago
  > They have taken from the economy Exqueeze me? Catalunya is the region has been the greatest net contributor to the Spanish economy.
  - the_gipsy 5y ago
    You can't look at net contribution on its own. Catalonia didn't bootstrap itself into wealth just like that. There is infrastructure investment, which may be payed back net later. Other regions didn't get this treatment.
    - zozbot234 5y ago
      Infrastructure investment should not be an argument for imperialism. The British built plenty of railways in India too, doesn't mean they get to rule the country.
      - the_gipsy 5y ago
        I did not say that Spain has a right to rule. I am saying that arguing around "net contributions" is moot (even contradictory) in the case of Catalonia and similar regions.
pvaldes 5y ago
> they have a less corrupt government than the other Yeah, sure. "In July 2014, Jordi Pujol confessed that for 34 years, including 23 as the President of Catalonia, he had maintained secret foreign bank accounts inherited from his father". "His children have amassed a fortune in private businesses that frequently did business and received contracts from the Catalan government" (The infamous 3% scandal). "They have investments in the tens of millions of dollars in Mexico, Panama and Argentina. Financial records show the movement of money between foreign banks in Andorra, Switzerland, Jersey, Cayman Islands and other tax havens in excess of €100 million". He and his seven children face charges for illicit association, money laundering, falsification of documents and seven different tax crimes. the prosecutor asks between that could compris between 28 and 7 years of jail. The wife has been recorded laundering money but has been exonerated by her problems of health. Totally not a godfather figure, for sure.
- zozbot234 5y ago
  Pretty much. The fact that we can read about these things is what implies that the government is less corrupt. Sunlight is the best disinfectant.
  - pvaldes 5y ago
    Well, a much more desirable solution would be not having a corrupt government for most of the last decades. At least four of the last presidents of Cataluña (all either from the Pujol's party or their legacy) had been involved in a rich catalog of scams and frauds, including one fugitive in search and capture and two inhabilitated by repeatedly disobeying the laws that they should represent or spending public money in very questionable ways. There is material here for several godfather trilogies plus a police academy series. Is simply grotesque.
    - mejutoco 5y ago
      > ncluding one fugitive in search and capture While there has been corruption in all sides, this statement needs clarification. The search and capture issued to interpol was obeyed by Germany. Upon examination of Spain‘s reasons the court in Germany decided it was not enough proof to send Puigdemont back to Spain. If anything, this seems to contradict what one would think of when reading the above sentence without context.

ipaddr 5y ago

To force them to stay because other groups rely on money taken from them doesn't sound right. A similiar reasoning for keeping slavery existed in the US over similiar claims.

pvaldes 5y ago
Slavery is an unfortunate comparison. Barcelona made a lot of money in the antiquity by being a main port in the slave trade that lasted until the XIX century it seems. Much later than other places. The idea here would be more like: I rebuild your home, I spend a lot in infrastructures for you and now that you are rich you slam your door in my face.