6 ms·

This sounds crazy but why not let go and allow them to decide their own fate?

by ipaddr 5y ago

capableweb 5y ago
To prevailing reasoning for not letting Catalunya decide that without involving the rest of Spain seems to be because Catalunya is one of the biggest contributor to the overall economy of Spain, so if Catalunya leaves Spain, it'll impact the entire country, not just Catalunya itself.
- scns 5y ago
  This. Same as in belgium. The part with lots of industry wants independence, the part without does not want them to leave.
- zozbot234 5y ago
  They are wealthy because they have high-quality policy-making and a less corrupt government than the other autonomous communities. Other parts of Spain could engage in reform efforts of their own and contribute just as much to the government budget. Why should this be an argument against Catalunya?
  - capableweb 5y ago
    > Why should this be an argument against Catalunya? I have no stake in either outcome of independence happening or not, but I can definitely understand that some people can see it as problematic if one part of a bigger thing wants to leave without considering the other parts. I still think Catalunya should be able to decide themselves, just like the UK decided themselves if they wanna leave the EU. Forcing states to belong to other states is something I thought we left behind a long time ago.
  - the_gipsy 5y ago
    - denton-scratch 5y ago
      > They have taken from the economy Exqueeze me? Catalunya is the region has been the greatest net contributor to the Spanish economy.
      - the_gipsy 5y ago
        You can't look at net contribution on its own. Catalonia didn't bootstrap itself into wealth just like that. There is infrastructure investment, which may be payed back net later. Other regions didn't get this treatment.
        zozbot234 5y ago
        Infrastructure investment should not be an argument for imperialism. The British built plenty of railways in India too, doesn't mean they get to rule the country.
        the_gipsy 5y ago
        I did not say that Spain has a right to rule. I am saying that arguing around "net contributions" is moot (even contradictory) in the case of Catalonia and similar regions.
  - pvaldes 5y ago
    > they have a less corrupt government than the other Yeah, sure. "In July 2014, Jordi Pujol confessed that for 34 years, including 23 as the President of Catalonia, he had maintained secret foreign bank accounts inherited from his father". "His children have amassed a fortune in private businesses that frequently did business and received contracts from the Catalan government" (The infamous 3% scandal). "They have investments in the tens of millions of dollars in Mexico, Panama and Argentina. Financial records show the movement of money between foreign banks in Andorra, Switzerland, Jersey, Cayman Islands and other tax havens in excess of €100 million". He and his seven children face charges for illicit association, money laundering, falsification of documents and seven different tax crimes. the prosecutor asks between that could compris between 28 and 7 years of jail. The wife has been recorded laundering money but has been exonerated by her problems of health. Totally not a godfather figure, for sure.
    - zozbot234 5y ago
      Pretty much. The fact that we can read about these things is what implies that the government is less corrupt. Sunlight is the best disinfectant.
      - pvaldes 5y ago
        Well, a much more desirable solution would be not having a corrupt government for most of the last decades. At least four of the last presidents of Cataluña (all either from the Pujol's party or their legacy) had been involved in a rich catalog of scams and frauds, including one fugitive in search and capture and two inhabilitated by repeatedly disobeying the laws that they should represent or spending public money in very questionable ways. There is material here for several godfather trilogies plus a police academy series. Is simply grotesque.
        mejutoco 5y ago
        > ncluding one fugitive in search and capture While there has been corruption in all sides, this statement needs clarification. The search and capture issued to interpol was obeyed by Germany. Upon examination of Spain‘s reasons the court in Germany decided it was not enough proof to send Puigdemont back to Spain. If anything, this seems to contradict what one would think of when reading the above sentence without context.
- ipaddr 5y ago
  To force them to stay because other groups rely on money taken from them doesn't sound right. A similiar reasoning for keeping slavery existed in the US over similiar claims.
  - pvaldes 5y ago
    Slavery is an unfortunate comparison. Barcelona made a lot of money in the antiquity by being a main port in the slave trade that lasted until the XIX century it seems. Much later than other places. The idea here would be more like: I rebuild your home, I spend a lot in infrastructures for you and now that you are rich you slam your door in my face.
Darmody 5y ago
Same reason they wouldn't let one of their cities vote for independence of Catalonia. What about a small town of 100 inhabitants? You can't just start voting to secede from the country you belong to. Voting independence for the sake of it doesn't make any sense.
- ipaddr 5y ago
  Voting independence is preferred over military or terrorist tactics. An independent town may want to separate but wouldn't have the resources.
  - Darmody 5y ago
    Giving me a billion dollars is preferred over terrorist tactics. The argument makes no sense here. What if that town votes for independence and then votes to be part of, lets say, China? They would have enough resources then. But anyway, nobody is using the resource argument here in the Catalonian independence issue.
    - smcl 5y ago
      > Giving me a billion dollars is preferred over terrorist tactics. The argument makes no sense here. You may not like it but it does make sense - countries have come into existence as a direct result of "terrorism" leading to civil war. Given the demographic breakdown of HN, it is very likely you live in one of those right now. Also remember that Spain struggled with violent separatist movement which was still active well into this century, so it is certainly not outside the realm of possibility.
      - Darmody 5y ago
        No, it doesn't make sense because we're not in a situation where we have to stop terrorism from happening. It's just a made up scenario, a false dilemma, terrorism or independence. Terrorism in Catalonia was a thing years ago but it stopped. They never went as far as the ETA terrorist group from the Basque Country. And even then, independence was not an option. If you start conceding things under the thread of terrorism, where do you draw the line? The Spanish constitution is clear. You can't claim/vote for independence. As in any other modern country we are subject to the rule of law so if they want independence, they should start by trying to change the constitution.
the_gipsy 5y ago
Why not let Barcelona (not in favour of independence) go of an independent catalonia? See where this goes?
- bigDinosaur 5y ago
  Would this actually be such a bad idea if all parties were still part of some supranational entity like the EU with some level of free movement and common regulation?
  - AshamedCaptain 5y ago
    I actually would like to see this type of balkanization happen while still keeping everything inside the EU, incl open borders. This was actually the idea of the early Pan-Europa people... As it is right now, the population heavyweights in the EU have way too much say compared to the smaller states.
- ipaddr 5y ago
  Why not? If Barcelona can make it as a city state why hold them back?
  - the_gipsy 5y ago
    That's my point. The independence movement would be dead if it excluded Barcelona.
  - recuter 5y ago
    Are you adjudicating a kindergarten dispute? What an amazing attitude. For the record I am neither for nor against Catalan independence, it is none of my business and not my place to judge.
    - logicchains 5y ago
      Surely the kindergartener attitude is the attitude that a group of people should be denied self-determination and forced to be part of a larger political body against their will. It's the same kind of childish reasoning China uses to justify oppressing Xinjiang and Tibet, and that Russia's using for annexing parts of Ukraine.
raverbashing 5y ago
Balkanization is the wet dream of several national adversaries (speaking generically) Oh and you can bet Puidgemont was seeking russian support for his independence plans https://elpais.com/espana/catalunya/2021-09-03/el-equipo-de-puigdemont-reconoce-contactos-en-rusia.html https://elpais.com/espana/catalunya/2021-09-03/el-equipo-de-... (Which doesn't mean many people don't have a legitimate wish of independence or more autonomy but of course the discussion has many nuances)
- zozbot234 5y ago
  > Balkanization is the wet dream of many enemies of Europe Meanwhile, back in the real world, states in the actual Balkans are actively joining the European Union and gaining freedom of movement throughout the region. Even Balkanization is not what it used to be.
  - recuter 5y ago
    He used the term not in reference to the actual balkan geographical area. In the real world there are world powers that benefit from a unified Europe with strong central authority and those that don't. Brexit serves the interests of the later. Scottish independence would further those interests still. Catalan independence weakens Spain and by extension NATO. This is not a statement on the morality of such movements or whether they might be a good idea in the narrow sense for Scots, Catalans, the people of Flanders and so forth. Rather it is a look at the larger map and unintended consequences. Finally, as to what is actually happening in the Balkans - the state of affairs between Kosovo and Albania (ironically they might form a union) and Bosnia is.. not fantastic to say the least. Sadly memories are short and attitudes are cavalier.
    - AshamedCaptain 5y ago
      > Scottish independence would further those interests still. > Catalan independence weakens Spain and by extension NATO. Why? Does any of these actually want to leave NATO? Or is this just a generic conservative position "change causes political instability, political instability bad therefore change bad"? ?
pvaldes 5y ago
> This sounds crazy but why not let go and allow them to decide their own fate? Because is my country also, and they want to gag me and to steal me. The sovereignty of a country relies in all citizens, and the citizenship came with some inalienable rights. In the same way as Nevada couldn't wake up tomorrow and decide that they will became part of China and the rest of the Americans can't enter or live there anymore. Changing the fate for every citizen would need to consult every citizen in the country about what they want to do, and the immense majority of us don't want to lose part of our country by a bunch of crooks. Period. Is called democracy.

This sounds crazy but why not let go and allow them to decide their own fate?

by ipaddr 5y ago

This sounds crazy but why not let go and allow them to decide their own fate?

To prevailing reasoning for not letting Catalunya decide that without involving the rest of Spain seems to be because Catalunya is one of the biggest contributor to the overall economy of Spain, so if Catalunya leaves Spain, it'll impact the entire country, not just Catalunya itself.

scns 5y ago
This. Same as in belgium. The part with lots of industry wants independence, the part without does not want them to leave.
zozbot234 5y ago
They are wealthy because they have high-quality policy-making and a less corrupt government than the other autonomous communities. Other parts of Spain could engage in reform efforts of their own and contribute just as much to the government budget. Why should this be an argument against Catalunya?
- capableweb 5y ago
  > Why should this be an argument against Catalunya? I have no stake in either outcome of independence happening or not, but I can definitely understand that some people can see it as problematic if one part of a bigger thing wants to leave without considering the other parts. I still think Catalunya should be able to decide themselves, just like the UK decided themselves if they wanna leave the EU. Forcing states to belong to other states is something I thought we left behind a long time ago.
- the_gipsy 5y ago
  - denton-scratch 5y ago
    > They have taken from the economy Exqueeze me? Catalunya is the region has been the greatest net contributor to the Spanish economy.
    - the_gipsy 5y ago
      You can't look at net contribution on its own. Catalonia didn't bootstrap itself into wealth just like that. There is infrastructure investment, which may be payed back net later. Other regions didn't get this treatment.
      - zozbot234 5y ago
        Infrastructure investment should not be an argument for imperialism. The British built plenty of railways in India too, doesn't mean they get to rule the country.
        the_gipsy 5y ago
        I did not say that Spain has a right to rule. I am saying that arguing around "net contributions" is moot (even contradictory) in the case of Catalonia and similar regions.
- pvaldes 5y ago
  > they have a less corrupt government than the other Yeah, sure. "In July 2014, Jordi Pujol confessed that for 34 years, including 23 as the President of Catalonia, he had maintained secret foreign bank accounts inherited from his father". "His children have amassed a fortune in private businesses that frequently did business and received contracts from the Catalan government" (The infamous 3% scandal). "They have investments in the tens of millions of dollars in Mexico, Panama and Argentina. Financial records show the movement of money between foreign banks in Andorra, Switzerland, Jersey, Cayman Islands and other tax havens in excess of €100 million". He and his seven children face charges for illicit association, money laundering, falsification of documents and seven different tax crimes. the prosecutor asks between that could compris between 28 and 7 years of jail. The wife has been recorded laundering money but has been exonerated by her problems of health. Totally not a godfather figure, for sure.
  - zozbot234 5y ago
    Pretty much. The fact that we can read about these things is what implies that the government is less corrupt. Sunlight is the best disinfectant.
    - pvaldes 5y ago
      Well, a much more desirable solution would be not having a corrupt government for most of the last decades. At least four of the last presidents of Cataluña (all either from the Pujol's party or their legacy) had been involved in a rich catalog of scams and frauds, including one fugitive in search and capture and two inhabilitated by repeatedly disobeying the laws that they should represent or spending public money in very questionable ways. There is material here for several godfather trilogies plus a police academy series. Is simply grotesque.
      - mejutoco 5y ago
        > ncluding one fugitive in search and capture While there has been corruption in all sides, this statement needs clarification. The search and capture issued to interpol was obeyed by Germany. Upon examination of Spain‘s reasons the court in Germany decided it was not enough proof to send Puigdemont back to Spain. If anything, this seems to contradict what one would think of when reading the above sentence without context.
ipaddr 5y ago
To force them to stay because other groups rely on money taken from them doesn't sound right. A similiar reasoning for keeping slavery existed in the US over similiar claims.
- pvaldes 5y ago
  Slavery is an unfortunate comparison. Barcelona made a lot of money in the antiquity by being a main port in the slave trade that lasted until the XIX century it seems. Much later than other places. The idea here would be more like: I rebuild your home, I spend a lot in infrastructures for you and now that you are rich you slam your door in my face.

Darmody 5y ago

Same reason they wouldn't let one of their cities vote for independence of Catalonia. What about a small town of 100 inhabitants? You can't just start voting to secede from the country you belong to. Voting independence for the sake of it doesn't make any sense.

ipaddr 5y ago
Voting independence is preferred over military or terrorist tactics. An independent town may want to separate but wouldn't have the resources.
- Darmody 5y ago
  Giving me a billion dollars is preferred over terrorist tactics. The argument makes no sense here. What if that town votes for independence and then votes to be part of, lets say, China? They would have enough resources then. But anyway, nobody is using the resource argument here in the Catalonian independence issue.
  - smcl 5y ago
    > Giving me a billion dollars is preferred over terrorist tactics. The argument makes no sense here. You may not like it but it does make sense - countries have come into existence as a direct result of "terrorism" leading to civil war. Given the demographic breakdown of HN, it is very likely you live in one of those right now. Also remember that Spain struggled with violent separatist movement which was still active well into this century, so it is certainly not outside the realm of possibility.
    - Darmody 5y ago
      No, it doesn't make sense because we're not in a situation where we have to stop terrorism from happening. It's just a made up scenario, a false dilemma, terrorism or independence. Terrorism in Catalonia was a thing years ago but it stopped. They never went as far as the ETA terrorist group from the Basque Country. And even then, independence was not an option. If you start conceding things under the thread of terrorism, where do you draw the line? The Spanish constitution is clear. You can't claim/vote for independence. As in any other modern country we are subject to the rule of law so if they want independence, they should start by trying to change the constitution.

the_gipsy 5y ago

Why not let Barcelona (not in favour of independence) go of an independent catalonia? See where this goes?

bigDinosaur 5y ago
Would this actually be such a bad idea if all parties were still part of some supranational entity like the EU with some level of free movement and common regulation?
- AshamedCaptain 5y ago
  I actually would like to see this type of balkanization happen while still keeping everything inside the EU, incl open borders. This was actually the idea of the early Pan-Europa people... As it is right now, the population heavyweights in the EU have way too much say compared to the smaller states.
ipaddr 5y ago
Why not? If Barcelona can make it as a city state why hold them back?
- the_gipsy 5y ago
  That's my point. The independence movement would be dead if it excluded Barcelona.
- recuter 5y ago
  Are you adjudicating a kindergarten dispute? What an amazing attitude. For the record I am neither for nor against Catalan independence, it is none of my business and not my place to judge.
  - logicchains 5y ago
    Surely the kindergartener attitude is the attitude that a group of people should be denied self-determination and forced to be part of a larger political body against their will. It's the same kind of childish reasoning China uses to justify oppressing Xinjiang and Tibet, and that Russia's using for annexing parts of Ukraine.

raverbashing 5y ago

Balkanization is the wet dream of several national adversaries (speaking generically) Oh and you can bet Puidgemont was seeking russian support for his independence plans https://elpais.com/espana/catalunya/2021-09-03/el-equipo-de-puigdemont-reconoce-contactos-en-rusia.html https://elpais.com/espana/catalunya/2021-09-03/el-equipo-de-... (Which doesn't mean many people don't have a legitimate wish of independence or more autonomy but of course the discussion has many nuances)

zozbot234 5y ago
> Balkanization is the wet dream of many enemies of Europe Meanwhile, back in the real world, states in the actual Balkans are actively joining the European Union and gaining freedom of movement throughout the region. Even Balkanization is not what it used to be.
- recuter 5y ago
  He used the term not in reference to the actual balkan geographical area. In the real world there are world powers that benefit from a unified Europe with strong central authority and those that don't. Brexit serves the interests of the later. Scottish independence would further those interests still. Catalan independence weakens Spain and by extension NATO. This is not a statement on the morality of such movements or whether they might be a good idea in the narrow sense for Scots, Catalans, the people of Flanders and so forth. Rather it is a look at the larger map and unintended consequences. Finally, as to what is actually happening in the Balkans - the state of affairs between Kosovo and Albania (ironically they might form a union) and Bosnia is.. not fantastic to say the least. Sadly memories are short and attitudes are cavalier.
  - AshamedCaptain 5y ago
    > Scottish independence would further those interests still. > Catalan independence weakens Spain and by extension NATO. Why? Does any of these actually want to leave NATO? Or is this just a generic conservative position "change causes political instability, political instability bad therefore change bad"? ?

pvaldes 5y ago

> This sounds crazy but why not let go and allow them to decide their own fate? Because is my country also, and they want to gag me and to steal me. The sovereignty of a country relies in all citizens, and the citizenship came with some inalienable rights. In the same way as Nevada couldn't wake up tomorrow and decide that they will became part of China and the rest of the Americans can't enter or live there anymore. Changing the fate for every citizen would need to consult every citizen in the country about what they want to do, and the immense majority of us don't want to lose part of our country by a bunch of crooks. Period. Is called democracy.