11 ms·

Spaniard here, I don't believe a federation-like would work here. Historically the more independence/leeway that has been given to Catalonia, the stronger it ha

Spaniard here, I don't believe a federation-like would work here. Historically the more independence/leeway that has been given to Catalonia, the stronger it has snowballed into more separatism (e.g. when allowed to have somewhat different media, education, etc. that was turned to teach the younger generations that Catalonia is a different culture and not belonging to Spain, which in turn ...). TBH I do not know what the solution is here, I'd like to see a unified country, but I can see how both the left and right politic parties are destroying it (one with lies/doctrinism, other with oppression/treating them like they are still 3rd party) and makes me sad. When visiting Barcelona, Spanish is often the 3rd language, after the Catalan (for Catalonian and the rest of Spain) and English (for tourists). Edit: look at the numbers, it's scary how in a single generation a whole region has gone from 90%+ wanting to be united to 50%+ wanting independence, specially during a "peace" era: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_independence_movement#Recent_Pro-independence_vote_evolution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_independence_movement#...

armadillu 5y ago
> Historically the more independence/leeway that has been given to Catalonia, the stronger it has snowballed into more separatism Maybe this is what happens when you try strangle a nation and its culture, but you fail to do it entirely. Catalonia was conquered by force, and luckily its language and culture survived along the centuries (despite all attempts). You can't invade a region, enforce your language and culture and expect it to magically become yours. Look at what happened to all the other (former) Spanish colonies, how many of them fought for their independence (and won it)? > TBH I do not know what the solution is here, I'd like to see a unified country You would like a "united country", but this will prove difficult, as there is no such thing. Spain is just Castille and a bunch of other regions conquered by force – with more or less success at assimilating them into the Castilian culture over time. Some went along, some do not feel like they belong, some feel entirely mistreated but got an ok tax deal with enough leeway, and some just had enough altogether. Many Catalans (me included) don't want to be part of Spain, and I doubt this will change any time soon. Especially on those who witnessed what happened during our attempt at a peaceful referendum in 2017. The speech the King of Spain gave after citizens where beaten for trying to cast a vote(!) is a great example. The silence of the non-catalans whilst the beating was happening another one. The former King doings, his fleeing out of the country with total impunity, and how the farce of a judicial system treated the whole thing, one more for the list. There's a certain "way of doing" embedded deep into Spain, that I fear will never go away ("atado y bien atado"). There's only one solution and it's what Catalonia has been asking for all along. Allow a fair referendum, where the repercussions of both options (stay and secede) are explained clearly to the population, and let the people decide. It seems inconceivable to me that a proper referendum about this ongoing issue is not allowed, especially in a supposedly democratic country like Spain. I could see Spain and Catalonia being good allies within the EU; but as it is setup now, the relationship is just not working. And making it work "by force" will only stir more and more trouble. > it's scary how in a single generation a whole region has gone from 90%+ wanting to be united to 50%+ wanting independence, specially during a "peace" era I think you are confusing 90%+ "wanting to be united" for "not bothered enough to do anything about it". The end of the dictatorship (without consequences the fascist side btw) gave hope to a lot of people, and attempts were made to "make it work" despite all the terrible acts Catalonia suffered. As soon as it became obvious there was no way to decide our own future whilst inside Spain (see Estatut d'Autonomia 2006 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statute_of_Autonomy_of_Catalonia_of_2006 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statute_of_Autonomy_of_Catalon...), it was clear that it was all a farce. Anti-Catalanism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Catalanism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Catalanism) and other attitudes / reactions from many parts of Spain towards Catalonia lead to this. It is way too easy for political parties to get votes around Spain by stirring anger towards Catalonia... I think most catalans would be happy remaining in Spain if their language, culture, traditions and pockets were respected. But that's just not what Spain wants Catalonia for.
- pvaldes 5y ago
  I'm undecided between if is propaganda or trolling, but there are so many falsehoods and hallucinations in this post that I don't even know where to start. > Spain is just Castille and a bunch of other regions conquered by force Hem... not and not. Marriage arrangement is not the same as violence necessarily Nobody has been beaten for "casting a vote" in this country in many, many time. That scam was not even a real election and the desired results were rigged from the start. Please, stop with the Franco bullshit. You were not the only Spanish that suffered in the civil war.
  - armadillu 5y ago
    Are the Galician, the Basque, the Catalan, and even some Andalusians happy to be part of Spain? Who is hallucinating here? Were referendum voters not beat? Is this also an hallucination? That was just unjustifiable. Legal or not, Spain left the catalans who want to decide their future no other choice than to organize a mock referendum. This is what happens when you deny peoples rights for that long. And after seeing how the Spanish government reacted on its own peaceful citizens, how would anyone want to stay? Nobody said Catalonia was the only one suffering during the dictatorship, lots of people from many places in Spain did. And I am not sure why they want to stay in, especially seeing how certain things will never change.
inglor_cz 5y ago
The Basques got the right to manage their own finances and it seems to have quelled the independence push. Financial autonomy also helped to rein in separatists in South Tirol, a German-speaking region of Italy. Maybe the same should be extended to the Catalans.
- franciscop 5y ago
  The Basques got their most extreme terrorists put into Jail after decades of blowing up people, which you could also argue might have helped quelling their independence push as well... Luckily I'm too young to remember, but I do know older people talking about ETA with fear and me thinking they were overblowing it, until I stumbled upon the wikipedia article with all they did and holy cow when I looked at the list of the 2000s: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ETA_attacks#2000%E2%80%932011 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ETA_attacks#2000%E2%80...
ipaddr 5y ago
This sounds crazy but why not let go and allow them to decide their own fate?
- capableweb 5y ago
  To prevailing reasoning for not letting Catalunya decide that without involving the rest of Spain seems to be because Catalunya is one of the biggest contributor to the overall economy of Spain, so if Catalunya leaves Spain, it'll impact the entire country, not just Catalunya itself.
  - scns 5y ago
    This. Same as in belgium. The part with lots of industry wants independence, the part without does not want them to leave.
  - zozbot234 5y ago
    They are wealthy because they have high-quality policy-making and a less corrupt government than the other autonomous communities. Other parts of Spain could engage in reform efforts of their own and contribute just as much to the government budget. Why should this be an argument against Catalunya?
    - capableweb 5y ago
      > Why should this be an argument against Catalunya? I have no stake in either outcome of independence happening or not, but I can definitely understand that some people can see it as problematic if one part of a bigger thing wants to leave without considering the other parts. I still think Catalunya should be able to decide themselves, just like the UK decided themselves if they wanna leave the EU. Forcing states to belong to other states is something I thought we left behind a long time ago.
    - the_gipsy 5y ago
mdp2021 5y ago
> I'd like to see a unified country Careful 'what you wish. You want options. If all your rooms get painted green but your colour is white...
- mdp2021 5y ago
  Will the pestiferous snipers glance, in these days of news reporting "Victims of war rape have no right to abortion in refuge Country", at the flow of "This about to be illegal in this State" in the past few years within a most prominent federation... There is no "love it or leave it" if there is no "leave it". Existence should not be a bed of Procuste - least you accept that /I/ take the measures and /you/ submit to them. Surely there will be some place where "debate" is not different from "pooling", and they will be as comfortable there as we find it a buggery.
melenaboija 5y ago
> When visiting Barcelona, Spanish is often the 3rd language Non separatist Catalan here and I can say this is complete BS. There is no doubt that there is more people in Catalunya that doesn't know Catalan than Spanish. I have been raised in a family that has been speaking Catalan for many generations and everybody now is almost bilingual with Spanish. And oh hell if I wish that English was the second language there. Tired of this propaganda that only causes more pain and exalts nationalist feelings in both sides.
- the_gipsy 5y ago
  It's not bullshit. It is the 3rd language, in a synthetic effort from the local government. You could say that this is not bad, ok. But you can't deny it.
  - melenaboija 5y ago
    Is not BS it is a synthetic effort from the government? Lol. Go there and experience it yourself and try to create an objective opinion from it. Another fact, most of the first generation immigrants will learn Spanish way earlier than Catalan, if they ever learn Catalan at all. And I am not saying this is bad, as for practical reasons they will obviously learn the 4th most spoken language in the world before learning a language that is spoken by 7 million people. Besides they know that with Spanish they can communicate with everybody, which is not the case with Catalan. More rigor and an independent point of view from politicians and media is needed if there is a real will to solve the issue.
    - the_gipsy 5y ago
      I've lived there for a decade.
    - lynguist 5y ago
      Catalan is spoken by 9.2 million people in Spain, Andorra, France, Italy (one town in Sardinia).
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
logicchains 5y ago
>TBH I do not know what the solution is here, I'd like to see a unified country, but I can see how both the left and right politic parties are destroying it (one with lies/doctrinism, other with oppression/treating them like they are still 3rd party) and makes me sad. When visiting Barcelona, Spanish is often the 3rd language, after the Catalan (for Catalonian and the rest of Spain) and English (for tourists). What's wrong with having separate countries? Would Canadians be better off if they were part of America? I don't understand westerners who cheer for independence in places like Xinjiang and Tibet but steadfastly oppose the idea when any region of their own country wants to be independent.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- mikem170 5y ago
  Agreed! There's the theory that people don't willingly aggregate into large countries, they need to be manipulated or coerced (pledge every day in school, anthem at sports events, etc), and that large countries inevitably become bullies, unable to restrain themselves from dominating the weak. The book Breakdown of Nations by Leopold Khor talks about this. He talks about the idea of dividing into smaller political units to fix our problems. He makes a lot of sense. There's a video summarizing the book [0]. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gaszpQaNwAU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gaszpQaNwAU

armadillu 5y ago

> Historically the more independence/leeway that has been given to Catalonia, the stronger it has snowballed into more separatism Maybe this is what happens when you try strangle a nation and its culture, but you fail to do it entirely. Catalonia was conquered by force, and luckily its language and culture survived along the centuries (despite all attempts). You can't invade a region, enforce your language and culture and expect it to magically become yours. Look at what happened to all the other (former) Spanish colonies, how many of them fought for their independence (and won it)? > TBH I do not know what the solution is here, I'd like to see a unified country You would like a "united country", but this will prove difficult, as there is no such thing. Spain is just Castille and a bunch of other regions conquered by force – with more or less success at assimilating them into the Castilian culture over time. Some went along, some do not feel like they belong, some feel entirely mistreated but got an ok tax deal with enough leeway, and some just had enough altogether. Many Catalans (me included) don't want to be part of Spain, and I doubt this will change any time soon. Especially on those who witnessed what happened during our attempt at a peaceful referendum in 2017. The speech the King of Spain gave after citizens where beaten for trying to cast a vote(!) is a great example. The silence of the non-catalans whilst the beating was happening another one. The former King doings, his fleeing out of the country with total impunity, and how the farce of a judicial system treated the whole thing, one more for the list. There's a certain "way of doing" embedded deep into Spain, that I fear will never go away ("atado y bien atado"). There's only one solution and it's what Catalonia has been asking for all along. Allow a fair referendum, where the repercussions of both options (stay and secede) are explained clearly to the population, and let the people decide. It seems inconceivable to me that a proper referendum about this ongoing issue is not allowed, especially in a supposedly democratic country like Spain. I could see Spain and Catalonia being good allies within the EU; but as it is setup now, the relationship is just not working. And making it work "by force" will only stir more and more trouble. > it's scary how in a single generation a whole region has gone from 90%+ wanting to be united to 50%+ wanting independence, specially during a "peace" era I think you are confusing 90%+ "wanting to be united" for "not bothered enough to do anything about it". The end of the dictatorship (without consequences the fascist side btw) gave hope to a lot of people, and attempts were made to "make it work" despite all the terrible acts Catalonia suffered. As soon as it became obvious there was no way to decide our own future whilst inside Spain (see Estatut d'Autonomia 2006 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statute_of_Autonomy_of_Catalonia_of_2006 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statute_of_Autonomy_of_Catalon...), it was clear that it was all a farce. Anti-Catalanism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Catalanism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Catalanism) and other attitudes / reactions from many parts of Spain towards Catalonia lead to this. It is way too easy for political parties to get votes around Spain by stirring anger towards Catalonia... I think most catalans would be happy remaining in Spain if their language, culture, traditions and pockets were respected. But that's just not what Spain wants Catalonia for.

pvaldes 5y ago
I'm undecided between if is propaganda or trolling, but there are so many falsehoods and hallucinations in this post that I don't even know where to start. > Spain is just Castille and a bunch of other regions conquered by force Hem... not and not. Marriage arrangement is not the same as violence necessarily Nobody has been beaten for "casting a vote" in this country in many, many time. That scam was not even a real election and the desired results were rigged from the start. Please, stop with the Franco bullshit. You were not the only Spanish that suffered in the civil war.
- armadillu 5y ago
  Are the Galician, the Basque, the Catalan, and even some Andalusians happy to be part of Spain? Who is hallucinating here? Were referendum voters not beat? Is this also an hallucination? That was just unjustifiable. Legal or not, Spain left the catalans who want to decide their future no other choice than to organize a mock referendum. This is what happens when you deny peoples rights for that long. And after seeing how the Spanish government reacted on its own peaceful citizens, how would anyone want to stay? Nobody said Catalonia was the only one suffering during the dictatorship, lots of people from many places in Spain did. And I am not sure why they want to stay in, especially seeing how certain things will never change.

inglor_cz 5y ago

The Basques got the right to manage their own finances and it seems to have quelled the independence push. Financial autonomy also helped to rein in separatists in South Tirol, a German-speaking region of Italy. Maybe the same should be extended to the Catalans.

franciscop 5y ago
The Basques got their most extreme terrorists put into Jail after decades of blowing up people, which you could also argue might have helped quelling their independence push as well... Luckily I'm too young to remember, but I do know older people talking about ETA with fear and me thinking they were overblowing it, until I stumbled upon the wikipedia article with all they did and holy cow when I looked at the list of the 2000s: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ETA_attacks#2000%E2%80%932011 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ETA_attacks#2000%E2%80...

ipaddr 5y ago

This sounds crazy but why not let go and allow them to decide their own fate?

capableweb 5y ago
To prevailing reasoning for not letting Catalunya decide that without involving the rest of Spain seems to be because Catalunya is one of the biggest contributor to the overall economy of Spain, so if Catalunya leaves Spain, it'll impact the entire country, not just Catalunya itself.
- scns 5y ago
  This. Same as in belgium. The part with lots of industry wants independence, the part without does not want them to leave.
- zozbot234 5y ago
  They are wealthy because they have high-quality policy-making and a less corrupt government than the other autonomous communities. Other parts of Spain could engage in reform efforts of their own and contribute just as much to the government budget. Why should this be an argument against Catalunya?
  - capableweb 5y ago
    > Why should this be an argument against Catalunya? I have no stake in either outcome of independence happening or not, but I can definitely understand that some people can see it as problematic if one part of a bigger thing wants to leave without considering the other parts. I still think Catalunya should be able to decide themselves, just like the UK decided themselves if they wanna leave the EU. Forcing states to belong to other states is something I thought we left behind a long time ago.
  - the_gipsy 5y ago

mdp2021 5y ago

> I'd like to see a unified country Careful 'what you wish. You want options. If all your rooms get painted green but your colour is white...

mdp2021 5y ago
Will the pestiferous snipers glance, in these days of news reporting "Victims of war rape have no right to abortion in refuge Country", at the flow of "This about to be illegal in this State" in the past few years within a most prominent federation... There is no "love it or leave it" if there is no "leave it". Existence should not be a bed of Procuste - least you accept that /I/ take the measures and /you/ submit to them. Surely there will be some place where "debate" is not different from "pooling", and they will be as comfortable there as we find it a buggery.

melenaboija 5y ago

> When visiting Barcelona, Spanish is often the 3rd language Non separatist Catalan here and I can say this is complete BS. There is no doubt that there is more people in Catalunya that doesn't know Catalan than Spanish. I have been raised in a family that has been speaking Catalan for many generations and everybody now is almost bilingual with Spanish. And oh hell if I wish that English was the second language there. Tired of this propaganda that only causes more pain and exalts nationalist feelings in both sides.

the_gipsy 5y ago
It's not bullshit. It is the 3rd language, in a synthetic effort from the local government. You could say that this is not bad, ok. But you can't deny it.
- melenaboija 5y ago
  Is not BS it is a synthetic effort from the government? Lol. Go there and experience it yourself and try to create an objective opinion from it. Another fact, most of the first generation immigrants will learn Spanish way earlier than Catalan, if they ever learn Catalan at all. And I am not saying this is bad, as for practical reasons they will obviously learn the 4th most spoken language in the world before learning a language that is spoken by 7 million people. Besides they know that with Spanish they can communicate with everybody, which is not the case with Catalan. More rigor and an independent point of view from politicians and media is needed if there is a real will to solve the issue.
  - the_gipsy 5y ago
    I've lived there for a decade.
  - lynguist 5y ago
    Catalan is spoken by 9.2 million people in Spain, Andorra, France, Italy (one town in Sardinia).

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

logicchains 5y ago

>TBH I do not know what the solution is here, I'd like to see a unified country, but I can see how both the left and right politic parties are destroying it (one with lies/doctrinism, other with oppression/treating them like they are still 3rd party) and makes me sad. When visiting Barcelona, Spanish is often the 3rd language, after the Catalan (for Catalonian and the rest of Spain) and English (for tourists). What's wrong with having separate countries? Would Canadians be better off if they were part of America? I don't understand westerners who cheer for independence in places like Xinjiang and Tibet but steadfastly oppose the idea when any region of their own country wants to be independent.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
mikem170 5y ago
Agreed! There's the theory that people don't willingly aggregate into large countries, they need to be manipulated or coerced (pledge every day in school, anthem at sports events, etc), and that large countries inevitably become bullies, unable to restrain themselves from dominating the weak. The book Breakdown of Nations by Leopold Khor talks about this. He talks about the idea of dividing into smaller political units to fix our problems. He makes a lot of sense. There's a video summarizing the book [0]. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gaszpQaNwAU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gaszpQaNwAU