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Cynically untrue. Amazon is not even close to bottom of the barrel. And it's clear you haven't paid market rent in a major city since you bought that starter ho

by abxytg 5y ago

Cynically untrue. Amazon is not even close to bottom of the barrel. And it's clear you haven't paid market rent in a major city since you bought that starter home back in the 90s - 42k is a joke when your rent is close to $2500 and you get no benefits.

kopkreotrke4 5y ago
What percentage of minimum wage earners live alone? There are hundreds of thousands of rooms available for rent on Craigslist for under $1000
- dumpsterlid 5y ago
  - kopkreotrke4 5y ago
    Why? Because I know many minimum wage workers who rent rooms instead of entire apartments?
    - kareemsabri 5y ago
      Some poor people have families.
      - BobbyJo 4y ago
        How does that fit in with the conversation?
  - kanwisher 5y ago
    When I was mid 20s, I was making six figures in tech and had to share an apartment. I can't see why minimum wage workers wouldn't also
    - maxerickson 5y ago
      I mean, it happens, but there's room to discuss whether it is a fact of the universe or partly an outcome of chosen policies.
      - lazide 5y ago
        What percentage of the world (or even western society) do people immediately move out of their parents homes into their own individual apartments that are nice and close to work? What percentage work into it? What percentage is it laughably out of touch for anyone and everyone who isn't top 1% of anything? That is what folks mean with the unrealistic luxury part.
        maxerickson 4y ago
        It's not uncommon in the US for parents to more or less kick their children out when they turn 18/graduate from high school. It's not the rule, and it's probably less common than it used to be. A few minutes later: "It's not uncommon" is going too far. It's certainly not unheard of.
        lazide 4y ago
        I think you're misunderstanding my comment. Typically, folks move in with room mates. Or into communal living (like a dorm). Or in with a girl/boy friend. Or find a job near where they live (not try to live right next to a job). Or any one of many other situations which the poster seems to think are unacceptable, yet very common - and probably the best setup anyway, since it's not like they have any experience living on their own most of the time. I personally moved out (and in with room mates) when I turned 18, and was working full time before then. This was in a low cost of living, mostly rural area. The number of folks who can move out of their parents place and have their own individual apartment RIGHT AWAY? Laughably small, and generally if so it's funded by their parents. It's always been that way.
        maxerickson 4y ago
rnikander 5y ago
So rent a room and/or don’t live in the best part of the city. That’s what I did near Boston a few years ago. My rent was well under $1000. Do people think they’re entitled to private apartments in the most expensive cities in the world?
- rtlfe 4y ago
  > Do people think they’re entitled to private apartments in the most expensive cities in the world? If the cities weren't designed to inflate home values to enrich people who got in early, then yeah pretty much everybody could afford an apartment.
  - powerslacker 4y ago
    They aren't neccesarily designed that way, it is the reality of democratic local governance that real property owners in a community are naturally going to vote for measures that maximize the value of their property so that they can sell it once the land has a more profitable use than their own. When everyone votes for their own economic interest it tends to make real property more expensive over time.
    - rtlfe 4y ago
      You're just nitpicking vocabulary. This is exactly what I meant, and I would consider the laws and regulations that result from this process the "design" of a city.
- iamdbtoo 5y ago
  Yeah, that's kind of how this country markets itself. Being able to afford a home and a family on a regular worker's pay is literally part of "The American Dream."
  - aerosmile 5y ago
    The American Dream is not about getting more for less, as in "most luxury for the least amount of effort." It's about having a shot at owning a business without the financial backing of a rich family [0], which is more like "most luxury for an insane amount of effort." [0] A lot of recent discussion centers on how many of the most successful US entrepreneurs come from privileged backgrounds, but you should not lose sight of the fact that literally every other country in the world will fare a lot worse in this regard. Many things are broken in the US, but no other place on Earth has lower barriers to starting your own LLC and hiring your first employee.
swarnie 5y ago
That comes out to about £11.50. In 2016 I was on £16.82, I had to share a house with four other adult housemates and had no prospect of owning a property within a 10 mile radius, it's only gotten worse since. God knows how any unskilled people doing these jobs are supposed to live with any dignity.
TigeriusKirk 5y ago
In order to keep the discussion meaningful, please don't use extreme numbers as typical examples. This just lowers the quality of conversation.
- abxytg 5y ago
  I am anchored at $2500 because I currently pay $1775 / month (just bumped to $1875) for accommodations I moved in to late 2019. To find a similar situation on the open market I would have to pay $2500. I am surely in an outlier market so your point stands, I'm just speaking from where I sit, not trying to muddy the waters with hyperbole.
hn_neverguess 5y ago
> Amazon is not even close to bottom of the barrel. What would you define as the bottom of the barrel then? There has to be a sensible threshold that delineates between 1) "I encountered a lot of bad luck but I am motivated and want to get myself out of this situation and 2) I simply don't care. Most of the physically able that fall under 1) can get a job at an Amazon warehouse. For those in poor health, I will agree that the US is no match for other countries. > 42k is a joke when your rent is close to $2500 You are approaching this subject as if living in an area where rents are $2500 is a right and not a privilege (the median rent in the US is $1,104 [0]). You might be shocked to hear that even in the most socialist countries in the world, there are gated neighborhoods and areas that are off limits to the poor (I experienced this first-hand living in a country that's often used as a socialist success story). I understand that not living in high-income areas leads to bad schools and a ton of other factors, but this is not a US-only phenomenon. Taking the necessary steps to remove the variations in rent is a strong step towards full-blown communism, which comes with its own set of downsides. > and you get no benefits. Nonsense, Amazon has surprisingly good benefits [1]. I am all for bashing Amazon's various horrible practices (eg: launching white-label brands that steal data from their own customers, total disregard for trademarks in their paid search bidding, etc), but when it comes to benefits, it will be hard to find a warehouse job with better perks. [0] https://ipropertymanagement.com/research/average-rent-by-year https://ipropertymanagement.com/research/average-rent-by-yea... [1] https://hiring.amazon.com/why-amazon/benefits#/ https://hiring.amazon.com/why-amazon/benefits#/
- jemfinch 5y ago
  > You are approaching this subject as if living in an area where rents are $2500 is a right and not a privilege And you're approaching this subject as if Amazon warehouses are uniformly distributed throughout the country, such that median rents _matter_. They aren't, and they don't. Amazon warehouses are typically just outside of (or even within) population centers, where rents exceed median, often substantially. How far should a person commute for a $15/hr warehouse job? How far _can_ they commute?
  - ModernMech 5y ago
shitpostbot 5y ago
lettergram 5y ago
> rent is close to $2500 and you get no benefits. You can get a 2 bedroom, 2 bathroom apartment where I live in a decent low crime location for $700-$1000. There’s an Amazon wear house up the street. It’s a city >250k people. People around here make $40k on average and still go to sports games, bars, dancing, etc. It depends where you live.
- abxytg 5y ago
  no doubt
- Sohurt00 4y ago
  “Works for me.” isn’t a solution
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
betwixthewires 5y ago
Not that I disagree with you, but when these discussions come up I always see "major city" as the baseline, as if they're the only places in the world that are worth living in.
- oh_sigh 4y ago
  Likewise, they always take effectively the 0th percentile wages among workers (minimum wage earners), and compare that to the 50th percentile housing units. If 0th percentile earners are expected to be renting the 50th percentile units, who exactly is going to be living in the 40th percentile and below units?
- rtlfe 4y ago
  Major cities are where the problem is most obvious. The cities need low skill workers to keep running, and those workers can't afford to live anywhere near those jobs.
oh_sigh 5y ago
I work at a FANG, total comp in 300k-400k range, and my rent is less than $2500. Can you tell me why someone making $15/hr needs to rent a place that costs $2500/mo?
- wonderwonder 4y ago
  This is a good point. My mortgage and escrow on a decent house in a nice suburb and good school zone on the outskirts of a large city is $2300. Spending $2,500 on rent is insane.
  - standardUser 4y ago
    "Spending $2,500 on rent is insane" That's not normal, but it is simply what it costs to live in NYC or SF or London. I know tons of people who pay north of $2,500/month for decent (not fancy) apartments in central neighborhoods of those cities. And $3-$4k/month is very common for a single person.
    - oh_sigh 4y ago
      Yes, and I would bet that those people you know paying $2500/mo are not earning $15/hr. And no, it is not simply what it costs to live in NYC, unless you think you absolutely must live in Manhattan below 96th st. This is like saying the cost of a car is $65,000, because the only car I accept is a BMW X5. Ok, if that is your standard, then yes a car will cost you $65k. But there are cars available for much cheaper, that will fulfill all the important roles that one looks for in a car.
      - standardUser 4y ago
        I did not say it was the floor, obviously, but it is literally the average rent, give or take.
      - crate_barre 4y ago
        Let me shock you by saying in some of these cities groups of people easily take out a 2500-3k rental. Either families or groups of workers.
yuppie_scum 4y ago
Contrary to popular opinion on HN, not everywhere in the universe is the Bay Area
missedthecue 4y ago
There are very few places in the US where rent for a single person is $2500
Handytinge 4y ago
Who is paying $2500 a month for rent on minimum wage? In Australia (where that $43k is from), the median rent for a 2 bedroom unit is $436 a week - $1700 a month. Very affordable with housemates or a partner also on minimum wage. In cheaper suburbs or 1 bedroom units, this is cheaper again.

by abxytg 5y ago

kopkreotrke4 5y ago

What percentage of minimum wage earners live alone? There are hundreds of thousands of rooms available for rent on Craigslist for under $1000

dumpsterlid 5y ago
- kopkreotrke4 5y ago
  Why? Because I know many minimum wage workers who rent rooms instead of entire apartments?
  - kareemsabri 5y ago
    Some poor people have families.
    - BobbyJo 4y ago
      How does that fit in with the conversation?
- kanwisher 5y ago
  When I was mid 20s, I was making six figures in tech and had to share an apartment. I can't see why minimum wage workers wouldn't also
  - maxerickson 5y ago
    I mean, it happens, but there's room to discuss whether it is a fact of the universe or partly an outcome of chosen policies.
    - lazide 5y ago
      What percentage of the world (or even western society) do people immediately move out of their parents homes into their own individual apartments that are nice and close to work? What percentage work into it? What percentage is it laughably out of touch for anyone and everyone who isn't top 1% of anything? That is what folks mean with the unrealistic luxury part.
      - maxerickson 4y ago
        It's not uncommon in the US for parents to more or less kick their children out when they turn 18/graduate from high school. It's not the rule, and it's probably less common than it used to be. A few minutes later: "It's not uncommon" is going too far. It's certainly not unheard of.
        lazide 4y ago
        I think you're misunderstanding my comment. Typically, folks move in with room mates. Or into communal living (like a dorm). Or in with a girl/boy friend. Or find a job near where they live (not try to live right next to a job). Or any one of many other situations which the poster seems to think are unacceptable, yet very common - and probably the best setup anyway, since it's not like they have any experience living on their own most of the time. I personally moved out (and in with room mates) when I turned 18, and was working full time before then. This was in a low cost of living, mostly rural area. The number of folks who can move out of their parents place and have their own individual apartment RIGHT AWAY? Laughably small, and generally if so it's funded by their parents. It's always been that way.
        maxerickson 4y ago

rnikander 5y ago

So rent a room and/or don’t live in the best part of the city. That’s what I did near Boston a few years ago. My rent was well under $1000. Do people think they’re entitled to private apartments in the most expensive cities in the world?

rtlfe 4y ago
> Do people think they’re entitled to private apartments in the most expensive cities in the world? If the cities weren't designed to inflate home values to enrich people who got in early, then yeah pretty much everybody could afford an apartment.
- powerslacker 4y ago
  They aren't neccesarily designed that way, it is the reality of democratic local governance that real property owners in a community are naturally going to vote for measures that maximize the value of their property so that they can sell it once the land has a more profitable use than their own. When everyone votes for their own economic interest it tends to make real property more expensive over time.
  - rtlfe 4y ago
    You're just nitpicking vocabulary. This is exactly what I meant, and I would consider the laws and regulations that result from this process the "design" of a city.
iamdbtoo 5y ago
Yeah, that's kind of how this country markets itself. Being able to afford a home and a family on a regular worker's pay is literally part of "The American Dream."
- aerosmile 5y ago
  The American Dream is not about getting more for less, as in "most luxury for the least amount of effort." It's about having a shot at owning a business without the financial backing of a rich family [0], which is more like "most luxury for an insane amount of effort." [0] A lot of recent discussion centers on how many of the most successful US entrepreneurs come from privileged backgrounds, but you should not lose sight of the fact that literally every other country in the world will fare a lot worse in this regard. Many things are broken in the US, but no other place on Earth has lower barriers to starting your own LLC and hiring your first employee.

swarnie 5y ago

That comes out to about £11.50. In 2016 I was on £16.82, I had to share a house with four other adult housemates and had no prospect of owning a property within a 10 mile radius, it's only gotten worse since. God knows how any unskilled people doing these jobs are supposed to live with any dignity.

TigeriusKirk 5y ago

In order to keep the discussion meaningful, please don't use extreme numbers as typical examples. This just lowers the quality of conversation.

abxytg 5y ago
I am anchored at $2500 because I currently pay $1775 / month (just bumped to $1875) for accommodations I moved in to late 2019. To find a similar situation on the open market I would have to pay $2500. I am surely in an outlier market so your point stands, I'm just speaking from where I sit, not trying to muddy the waters with hyperbole.

hn_neverguess 5y ago

> Amazon is not even close to bottom of the barrel. What would you define as the bottom of the barrel then? There has to be a sensible threshold that delineates between 1) "I encountered a lot of bad luck but I am motivated and want to get myself out of this situation and 2) I simply don't care. Most of the physically able that fall under 1) can get a job at an Amazon warehouse. For those in poor health, I will agree that the US is no match for other countries. > 42k is a joke when your rent is close to $2500 You are approaching this subject as if living in an area where rents are $2500 is a right and not a privilege (the median rent in the US is $1,104 [0]). You might be shocked to hear that even in the most socialist countries in the world, there are gated neighborhoods and areas that are off limits to the poor (I experienced this first-hand living in a country that's often used as a socialist success story). I understand that not living in high-income areas leads to bad schools and a ton of other factors, but this is not a US-only phenomenon. Taking the necessary steps to remove the variations in rent is a strong step towards full-blown communism, which comes with its own set of downsides. > and you get no benefits. Nonsense, Amazon has surprisingly good benefits [1]. I am all for bashing Amazon's various horrible practices (eg: launching white-label brands that steal data from their own customers, total disregard for trademarks in their paid search bidding, etc), but when it comes to benefits, it will be hard to find a warehouse job with better perks. [0] https://ipropertymanagement.com/research/average-rent-by-year https://ipropertymanagement.com/research/average-rent-by-yea... [1] https://hiring.amazon.com/why-amazon/benefits#/ https://hiring.amazon.com/why-amazon/benefits#/

jemfinch 5y ago
> You are approaching this subject as if living in an area where rents are $2500 is a right and not a privilege And you're approaching this subject as if Amazon warehouses are uniformly distributed throughout the country, such that median rents _matter_. They aren't, and they don't. Amazon warehouses are typically just outside of (or even within) population centers, where rents exceed median, often substantially. How far should a person commute for a $15/hr warehouse job? How far _can_ they commute?
- ModernMech 5y ago

shitpostbot 5y ago

lettergram 5y ago

> rent is close to $2500 and you get no benefits. You can get a 2 bedroom, 2 bathroom apartment where I live in a decent low crime location for $700-$1000. There’s an Amazon wear house up the street. It’s a city >250k people. People around here make $40k on average and still go to sports games, bars, dancing, etc. It depends where you live.

abxytg 5y ago
no doubt
Sohurt00 4y ago
“Works for me.” isn’t a solution
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]

betwixthewires 5y ago

Not that I disagree with you, but when these discussions come up I always see "major city" as the baseline, as if they're the only places in the world that are worth living in.

oh_sigh 4y ago
Likewise, they always take effectively the 0th percentile wages among workers (minimum wage earners), and compare that to the 50th percentile housing units. If 0th percentile earners are expected to be renting the 50th percentile units, who exactly is going to be living in the 40th percentile and below units?
rtlfe 4y ago
Major cities are where the problem is most obvious. The cities need low skill workers to keep running, and those workers can't afford to live anywhere near those jobs.

oh_sigh 5y ago

I work at a FANG, total comp in 300k-400k range, and my rent is less than $2500. Can you tell me why someone making $15/hr needs to rent a place that costs $2500/mo?

wonderwonder 4y ago
This is a good point. My mortgage and escrow on a decent house in a nice suburb and good school zone on the outskirts of a large city is $2300. Spending $2,500 on rent is insane.
- standardUser 4y ago
  "Spending $2,500 on rent is insane" That's not normal, but it is simply what it costs to live in NYC or SF or London. I know tons of people who pay north of $2,500/month for decent (not fancy) apartments in central neighborhoods of those cities. And $3-$4k/month is very common for a single person.
  - oh_sigh 4y ago
    Yes, and I would bet that those people you know paying $2500/mo are not earning $15/hr. And no, it is not simply what it costs to live in NYC, unless you think you absolutely must live in Manhattan below 96th st. This is like saying the cost of a car is $65,000, because the only car I accept is a BMW X5. Ok, if that is your standard, then yes a car will cost you $65k. But there are cars available for much cheaper, that will fulfill all the important roles that one looks for in a car.
    - standardUser 4y ago
      I did not say it was the floor, obviously, but it is literally the average rent, give or take.
    - crate_barre 4y ago
      Let me shock you by saying in some of these cities groups of people easily take out a 2500-3k rental. Either families or groups of workers.

yuppie_scum 4y ago

Contrary to popular opinion on HN, not everywhere in the universe is the Bay Area

missedthecue 4y ago

There are very few places in the US where rent for a single person is $2500

Handytinge 4y ago

Who is paying $2500 a month for rent on minimum wage? In Australia (where that $43k is from), the median rent for a 2 bedroom unit is $436 a week - $1700 a month. Very affordable with housemates or a partner also on minimum wage. In cheaper suburbs or 1 bedroom units, this is cheaper again.