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I met Virgil at an academic workshop back in 2014. We went out in Amsterdam. He was a weird guy, to say the least (he’d probably be the first to agree). He was

I met Virgil at an academic workshop back in 2014. We went out in Amsterdam. He was a weird guy, to say the least (he’d probably be the first to agree). He was generally quite affable and obviously highly intelligent. He’s an idiot for this fiasco. But it’s also sad to see him in jail; I don’t see how this benefits society in any way. Five years in prison seems like a disproportionate punishment for an arguably victimless crime. None of us is safer today because Virgil is in prison.

ethbr0 5y ago
Agreed. This feels like early-90s computer crime sentencing. Making it easy for someone to bludgeon you over the head with a legal charge is your own fault. But the net impact of the charge can also be useless.
- Daishiman 5y ago
  If you were to advice a sanctioned country on how to launder money or evade currency controls you would also be penalized in the same manner.
  - ethbr0 5y ago
    Explaining how cryptocurrency works is itself advising a sanctioned country on how to launder money and evade currency controls. Is Wikipedia liable?
unnouinceput 5y ago
This is about sending a message, especially to brilliant minds. No prosecution was involved when Rodman was visiting NK and definitely helped NK with having a highly visible star being personal friend with Kim, but hey Rodman is not a brainiac.
- otterley 5y ago
  Dennis Rodman didn't break the law by the mere act of visiting North Korea and being friendly with Kim. As far as I can tell, the only time he may have acted questionably was a suspicion of bringing in some luxury goods (https://www.si.com/si-wire/2014/01/24/dennis-rodman-sanctions-north-korea https://www.si.com/si-wire/2014/01/24/dennis-rodman-sanction...), but it doesn't seem like that case was pursued.
throwaw0123 5y ago
A4ET8a8uTh0 5y ago
To an extent, I wonder if this is the fear of the unknown. Here is a guy, who actually seems to understand the 'magic' of crypto. God only knows what he could do with dangerous knowledge like that. I am not foreign policy, NK, crypto, or national security expert, but it is not about safety. It is about sending a message at a time when US engages in very heavy sanctions effort ( currently against Russia ). From that perspective, as sad as it sounds even as I type it, Virgil is a sacrifice government makes to send a message. I too feel his mind locked behind bars is a terrible waste.
- water-your-self 5y ago
  What 'magic' is there in crypto. Besides, cryptography as a munition is a known meme in the right circles. This is textbook what not to do.
  - samhw 5y ago
    > What 'magic' is there in crypto. Well, there's magical thinking, does that count? ;) (Also, perhaps it's just me, but I really dislike the term 'crypto'. Cryptography is a genuinely valuable field. Maybe we can call them 'waste-backed internet tokens' or something. When they actually implement Moxie Marlinspike's suggestion[0] of using cryptography rather than distributed consensus as proof of validity, then maybe they can call themselves cryptocurrencies.) [0] "We should accept the premise that people will not run their own servers by designing systems that can distribute trust without having to distribute infrastructure. This means architecture that anticipates and accepts the inevitable outcome of relatively centralized client/server relationships, but uses cryptography (rather than infrastructure) to distribute trust." (https://moxie.org/2022/01/07/web3-first-impressions.html https://moxie.org/2022/01/07/web3-first-impressions.html)
- mattnewton 5y ago
  His mind behind bars is a total waste but I don't see anything magical about what he did. Replace "unit of cryptocurrency" above with "duffel bag of diamonds" or any other store of value and it's transparently illegal.
- 5y ago
mtoner23 5y ago
Victimless? North korea is not a victimless country. There's a reason why they are sactioned. He clearly broke a big and important law and knew he was doing it. idk what else one would expect
- thereddaikon 5y ago
  Yeah I don't see how anyone could consider it victimless. By helping North Korea circumvent sanctions he indirectly has blood on his hands. This is a country that sentences multiple generations of a family to work camps.
  - s1artibartfast 5y ago
    The USA has a similar incarceration rate to North Korea, albeit with better conditions.
    - tcgv 5y ago
      Nonetheless two wrongs don't make a right.
      - s1artibartfast 5y ago
        sure, Im not saying that they do make it right. I am pointing out the conspicuous hypocrisy that people don't feel that they have blood on their hands for paying US taxes, but aiding NK in any way is a mortal sin.
        Lanolderen 5y ago
        I find this comparison extremely weird. North korean prisons are described as hellholes whereas US prisons actually seem decent to me (eastern european) if we exclude that you likely won't have the best of company. Plus that only a small amount of taxes go towards the prison system.
        5y ago
istjohn 5y ago
Personally, I support imprisoning anyone who helps subvert sanctions against a despotic state pursuing nuclear weapons.
- qbasic_forever 5y ago
  Looking forward to see how you'll imprison the German government for continuing to purchase oil from Russia through shell companies like Gazprombank.
  - relativeadv 5y ago
    lol, this comment is too much.
    - samhw 5y ago
      Well, he's not wrong, really.
    - mayankkaizen 5y ago
      May be a bit extreme comment but not completely nonsensical. It is raising somewhat valid point. Currently Russian regime is not that much different from NK regime. Both are under sanctions. In fact, Russia is more dangerous than NK in current situation. Germany needs fuel and it is essentially financing Russia. The only difference between NK and Russia is that nobody is dependent on NK for anything. This guy helped NK and went to jail. Germany giving money to Russia (for fuel), it's all ok.
      - Brian_K_White 5y ago
        Germany needs those btu's. And the German authorities are invested with the authority and responsibility to make exactly that sort of decision. Did this guy need to help NK for anything remotely like that sort of responsibility?
        linspace 5y ago
micromacrofoot 5y ago
It benefits society because Virgil will now likely think a lot harder before attempting to do something so foolish. He thought he was flying under the radar and possibly teaching North Korea how to avoid sanctions.
starwind 5y ago
> I don’t see how this benefits society in any way. It sends a message to those would otherwise help North Korea (or Russia or Iran) of "don't violate sanctions."
boc 5y ago
If you helped smuggle $1M in cash across the NK border you'd also be arrested and convicted for helping to evade sanctions. If anything crypto-enthusiasts should be happy to hear that the US government treats crypto as a legitimate means of moving money between nations, and punishes actors accordingly. I'm glad he's a nice guy based on your interactions, but he knowingly tried to enrich an totalitarian state that has successfully built offensive nuclear weapons and is actively testing ICBMs. That's insanely anti-social behavior which endangers the lives of millions of innocent people in the region. He deserves those 5 years. You can't hide behind the curtain of victimless crypto-evangelism while also admitting in text convos that you're likely helping them evade sanctions.
- matheusmoreira 5y ago
  > If anything crypto-enthusiasts should be happy to hear that the US government treats crypto as a legitimate means of moving money between nations, and punishes actors accordingly. Cryptocurrencies being easy to move is old news. It would be much more interesting to discover that some cryptocurrency is actually immune to government sanctions. Monero has shown hints of this. US treasury tried to sanction a wallet and ended up sanctioning a transaction hash. https://www.treasury.gov/ofac/downloads/sdnlist.txt https://www.treasury.gov/ofac/downloads/sdnlist.txt > Digital Currency Address - XMR 5be5543ff73456ab9f2d207887e2af87322c651ea1a873c5b25b7ffae456c320; https://localmonero.co/blocks/search/5be5543ff73456ab9f2d207887e2af87322c651ea1a873c5b25b7ffae456c320 https://localmonero.co/blocks/search/5be5543ff73456ab9f2d207...
tptacek 5y ago
Leaving aside the questions of whether this is a victimless crime, amply addressed by sibling comments, I'd like to point out that people like Virgil Griffith benefit from these sympathetic assessments, in large part for being part of our in-group, but most defendants do not. You wouldn't want to live in a system where these kinds of sentiments actually controlled even more than they already do.
- jacquesm 5y ago
  People engaging in acts like this should automatically be no longer considered to be part of the 'in group' but part of another group called 'criminals'. And in this case a very special kind of criminal: one that knowingly aids a regime that is beyond despicable.
Brian_K_White 5y ago
If someone is nice but dangerous through lack of judgement, then the nice doesn't matter because the dangerous is still dangerous and has to be dealt with. He's in prison because he was willing to help hurt the world. It benefits society and we are all safer today because that person was relieved of his ability to act, and because of the warning the example sends to others. I say that because of the specific factors in this case being about NK, not just because the US (my) government decreed something. IE, I care that he violated everyone else's trust, not that he violated a rule.
edm0nd 5y ago
I think it's more about just being a high profile victim to send a public a message. He openly defied the US government after they denied his travel. In a big F YOU, he still went anyway and did his thing. US government cant allow people to do such things so they had to throw him in prison. He should have just 'anonymously' video conferenced in if he really wanted to give the talk. It sucks but thats why he's in prison. Cant make the US government look foolish. He also should never have agreed to be interviewed by FBI agents without a lawyer. NK has very talented hacking teams that have stolen $400M+ in crypto (in 2021 alone) as a way to fund themselves and evade financial sanctions. Virgil def got put on the US gov radar at which point he certainly became a causality of this cyber war. https://www.bbc.com/news/business-59990477 https://www.bbc.com/news/business-59990477
tomatowurst 5y ago
How in the world do you see this victimless? North Korea has been violating human rights in it's own borders and South Korea. It has nukes pointed at Seoul holding it and US troops hostage. I can't believe he only got 5 years in jail for this. It should've been life imprisonment for aiding and abetting terrorist organizations like North Korea. Can you say the same for someone caught laundering money for Hamas or ISIS? That it's a victimless crime?
- ttybird2 5y ago
  "How in the world do you see this victimless?" Just because NK has victims does not mean that his actions have victims as well. "It has nukes pointed at Seoul" Every nuclear country has their nukes pointed at somewhere. US included. "holding ... US troops hostage" I really do not get what you mean by this. "It should've been life imprisonment" It is easy to call for absurd amounts of vengeful punishment towards someone that poses no danger. "for aiding and abetting terrorist organizations like North Korea" I think that your definition of "terrorist organization" is too wide. Might as well call the US a terrorist organization at that point. "Can you say the same for someone caught laundering money for Hamas or ISIS? That it's a victimless crime?" He did not launder money. He just did a cryptocurrency presentation.
sangnoir 5y ago
> Five years in prison seems like a disproportionate punishment for an arguably victimless crime It's not victimless: the United States (government) is the victim, albeit one that's not particularly sympathetic. Just because the victim is diffuse/a collective doesn't mean the wrongs against it are victimless - this is about as victimless as handing over nuclear secrets to another country (in quality, not severity).
- jacquesm 5y ago
  I would say the people of NK are the victim of anything that further strengthens the regime there.
gnulinux 5y ago
What? North Korean government is the most totalitarian, brutal, ruthless state in the world today. You can't just play "there is no victim" card when you illegally help out an enemy government like that. Even if you're ideologically or for some other reason inclined to support NK, you need to understand that being a US citizen makes your actions extremely impactful on world stage. It seems like Virgil was truly in a position to help NK, which makes him responsible. I think the punishment is not nearly enough. I believe the same thing should be done to people helping Russia evade sanctions too.
- eldenwrong 5y ago
- chatmasta 5y ago
  This argument would be more convincing if he provided material support to NK and didn’t simply relay publicly available information. It seems he’s been sanctioned primarily for his speech, not selling weapons or purchasing contraband. And it’s not like he was divulging state secrets. Anyway, the conviction mostly makes sense to me. The sentencing seems disproportionate.
- 9991 5y ago
m3kw9 5y ago
“ I don’t see how this benefits society in any way.” The law breaks down when you start giving exceptions to the law arbitrarily
- madacol 5y ago
  If it's not arbitrary, then why stop there? Why not imprison every cryptocurrency developer?, they are all enabling a new way to avoid sanctions, some much better than others Where do you draw the line so that it's not arbitrary?
  - otterley 5y ago
    Our entire legal system is built on the exercise of line drawing. Where those lines are drawn is the result of debate and compromise. It's never perfect, but it's better than not having any lines at all.
some_random 5y ago
Yeah, a victimless crime. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_trafficking_in_North_Korea https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_trafficking_in_North_Kor... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_North_Korea https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_North_Korea https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kwalliso https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kwalliso https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korea_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korea_and_weapons_of_mas...
- nyolfen 5y ago
  interesting. let's see the CCP's human rights record
  - some_random 5y ago
    Sure, these'll get you started https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_genocide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_genocide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_harvesting_from_Falun_Gong_practitioners_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_harvesting_from_Falun_Go... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_jails https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_jails
    - nyolfen 5y ago
      does buying iphones qualify as treason or whatever
  - alephnan 5y ago
    interesting. let's see the United States' human rights record
- w7 5y ago
  Don't forget https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korean_abductions_of_Japanese_citizens https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korean_abductions_of_Jap... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korean_abductions_of_South_Koreans https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korean_abductions_of_Sou...
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
paxys 5y ago
So, people shouldn't face consequences for criminal actions because they are nerdy and good with computers? That's not how the real world works. Aiding a dictatorship in evading sanctions is very far from "victimless".

ethbr0 5y ago

Agreed. This feels like early-90s computer crime sentencing. Making it easy for someone to bludgeon you over the head with a legal charge is your own fault. But the net impact of the charge can also be useless.

Daishiman 5y ago
If you were to advice a sanctioned country on how to launder money or evade currency controls you would also be penalized in the same manner.
- ethbr0 5y ago
  Explaining how cryptocurrency works is itself advising a sanctioned country on how to launder money and evade currency controls. Is Wikipedia liable?

unnouinceput 5y ago

This is about sending a message, especially to brilliant minds. No prosecution was involved when Rodman was visiting NK and definitely helped NK with having a highly visible star being personal friend with Kim, but hey Rodman is not a brainiac.

otterley 5y ago
Dennis Rodman didn't break the law by the mere act of visiting North Korea and being friendly with Kim. As far as I can tell, the only time he may have acted questionably was a suspicion of bringing in some luxury goods (https://www.si.com/si-wire/2014/01/24/dennis-rodman-sanctions-north-korea https://www.si.com/si-wire/2014/01/24/dennis-rodman-sanction...), but it doesn't seem like that case was pursued.

throwaw0123 5y ago

A4ET8a8uTh0 5y ago

To an extent, I wonder if this is the fear of the unknown. Here is a guy, who actually seems to understand the 'magic' of crypto. God only knows what he could do with dangerous knowledge like that. I am not foreign policy, NK, crypto, or national security expert, but it is not about safety. It is about sending a message at a time when US engages in very heavy sanctions effort ( currently against Russia ). From that perspective, as sad as it sounds even as I type it, Virgil is a sacrifice government makes to send a message. I too feel his mind locked behind bars is a terrible waste.

water-your-self 5y ago
What 'magic' is there in crypto. Besides, cryptography as a munition is a known meme in the right circles. This is textbook what not to do.
- samhw 5y ago
  > What 'magic' is there in crypto. Well, there's magical thinking, does that count? ;) (Also, perhaps it's just me, but I really dislike the term 'crypto'. Cryptography is a genuinely valuable field. Maybe we can call them 'waste-backed internet tokens' or something. When they actually implement Moxie Marlinspike's suggestion[0] of using cryptography rather than distributed consensus as proof of validity, then maybe they can call themselves cryptocurrencies.) [0] "We should accept the premise that people will not run their own servers by designing systems that can distribute trust without having to distribute infrastructure. This means architecture that anticipates and accepts the inevitable outcome of relatively centralized client/server relationships, but uses cryptography (rather than infrastructure) to distribute trust." (https://moxie.org/2022/01/07/web3-first-impressions.html https://moxie.org/2022/01/07/web3-first-impressions.html)
mattnewton 5y ago
His mind behind bars is a total waste but I don't see anything magical about what he did. Replace "unit of cryptocurrency" above with "duffel bag of diamonds" or any other store of value and it's transparently illegal.
5y ago

mtoner23 5y ago

Victimless? North korea is not a victimless country. There's a reason why they are sactioned. He clearly broke a big and important law and knew he was doing it. idk what else one would expect

thereddaikon 5y ago
Yeah I don't see how anyone could consider it victimless. By helping North Korea circumvent sanctions he indirectly has blood on his hands. This is a country that sentences multiple generations of a family to work camps.
- s1artibartfast 5y ago
  The USA has a similar incarceration rate to North Korea, albeit with better conditions.
  - tcgv 5y ago
    Nonetheless two wrongs don't make a right.
    - s1artibartfast 5y ago
      sure, Im not saying that they do make it right. I am pointing out the conspicuous hypocrisy that people don't feel that they have blood on their hands for paying US taxes, but aiding NK in any way is a mortal sin.
      - Lanolderen 5y ago
        I find this comparison extremely weird. North korean prisons are described as hellholes whereas US prisons actually seem decent to me (eastern european) if we exclude that you likely won't have the best of company. Plus that only a small amount of taxes go towards the prison system.
        5y ago

istjohn 5y ago

Personally, I support imprisoning anyone who helps subvert sanctions against a despotic state pursuing nuclear weapons.

qbasic_forever 5y ago
Looking forward to see how you'll imprison the German government for continuing to purchase oil from Russia through shell companies like Gazprombank.
- relativeadv 5y ago
  lol, this comment is too much.
  - samhw 5y ago
    Well, he's not wrong, really.
  - mayankkaizen 5y ago
    May be a bit extreme comment but not completely nonsensical. It is raising somewhat valid point. Currently Russian regime is not that much different from NK regime. Both are under sanctions. In fact, Russia is more dangerous than NK in current situation. Germany needs fuel and it is essentially financing Russia. The only difference between NK and Russia is that nobody is dependent on NK for anything. This guy helped NK and went to jail. Germany giving money to Russia (for fuel), it's all ok.
    - Brian_K_White 5y ago
      Germany needs those btu's. And the German authorities are invested with the authority and responsibility to make exactly that sort of decision. Did this guy need to help NK for anything remotely like that sort of responsibility?
      - linspace 5y ago

micromacrofoot 5y ago

It benefits society because Virgil will now likely think a lot harder before attempting to do something so foolish. He thought he was flying under the radar and possibly teaching North Korea how to avoid sanctions.

starwind 5y ago

> I don’t see how this benefits society in any way. It sends a message to those would otherwise help North Korea (or Russia or Iran) of "don't violate sanctions."

boc 5y ago

If you helped smuggle $1M in cash across the NK border you'd also be arrested and convicted for helping to evade sanctions. If anything crypto-enthusiasts should be happy to hear that the US government treats crypto as a legitimate means of moving money between nations, and punishes actors accordingly. I'm glad he's a nice guy based on your interactions, but he knowingly tried to enrich an totalitarian state that has successfully built offensive nuclear weapons and is actively testing ICBMs. That's insanely anti-social behavior which endangers the lives of millions of innocent people in the region. He deserves those 5 years. You can't hide behind the curtain of victimless crypto-evangelism while also admitting in text convos that you're likely helping them evade sanctions.

matheusmoreira 5y ago
> If anything crypto-enthusiasts should be happy to hear that the US government treats crypto as a legitimate means of moving money between nations, and punishes actors accordingly. Cryptocurrencies being easy to move is old news. It would be much more interesting to discover that some cryptocurrency is actually immune to government sanctions. Monero has shown hints of this. US treasury tried to sanction a wallet and ended up sanctioning a transaction hash. https://www.treasury.gov/ofac/downloads/sdnlist.txt https://www.treasury.gov/ofac/downloads/sdnlist.txt > Digital Currency Address - XMR 5be5543ff73456ab9f2d207887e2af87322c651ea1a873c5b25b7ffae456c320; https://localmonero.co/blocks/search/5be5543ff73456ab9f2d207887e2af87322c651ea1a873c5b25b7ffae456c320 https://localmonero.co/blocks/search/5be5543ff73456ab9f2d207...

tptacek 5y ago

Leaving aside the questions of whether this is a victimless crime, amply addressed by sibling comments, I'd like to point out that people like Virgil Griffith benefit from these sympathetic assessments, in large part for being part of our in-group, but most defendants do not. You wouldn't want to live in a system where these kinds of sentiments actually controlled even more than they already do.

jacquesm 5y ago
People engaging in acts like this should automatically be no longer considered to be part of the 'in group' but part of another group called 'criminals'. And in this case a very special kind of criminal: one that knowingly aids a regime that is beyond despicable.

Brian_K_White 5y ago

If someone is nice but dangerous through lack of judgement, then the nice doesn't matter because the dangerous is still dangerous and has to be dealt with. He's in prison because he was willing to help hurt the world. It benefits society and we are all safer today because that person was relieved of his ability to act, and because of the warning the example sends to others. I say that because of the specific factors in this case being about NK, not just because the US (my) government decreed something. IE, I care that he violated everyone else's trust, not that he violated a rule.

edm0nd 5y ago

I think it's more about just being a high profile victim to send a public a message. He openly defied the US government after they denied his travel. In a big F YOU, he still went anyway and did his thing. US government cant allow people to do such things so they had to throw him in prison. He should have just 'anonymously' video conferenced in if he really wanted to give the talk. It sucks but thats why he's in prison. Cant make the US government look foolish. He also should never have agreed to be interviewed by FBI agents without a lawyer. NK has very talented hacking teams that have stolen $400M+ in crypto (in 2021 alone) as a way to fund themselves and evade financial sanctions. Virgil def got put on the US gov radar at which point he certainly became a causality of this cyber war. https://www.bbc.com/news/business-59990477 https://www.bbc.com/news/business-59990477

tomatowurst 5y ago

How in the world do you see this victimless? North Korea has been violating human rights in it's own borders and South Korea. It has nukes pointed at Seoul holding it and US troops hostage. I can't believe he only got 5 years in jail for this. It should've been life imprisonment for aiding and abetting terrorist organizations like North Korea. Can you say the same for someone caught laundering money for Hamas or ISIS? That it's a victimless crime?

ttybird2 5y ago
"How in the world do you see this victimless?" Just because NK has victims does not mean that his actions have victims as well. "It has nukes pointed at Seoul" Every nuclear country has their nukes pointed at somewhere. US included. "holding ... US troops hostage" I really do not get what you mean by this. "It should've been life imprisonment" It is easy to call for absurd amounts of vengeful punishment towards someone that poses no danger. "for aiding and abetting terrorist organizations like North Korea" I think that your definition of "terrorist organization" is too wide. Might as well call the US a terrorist organization at that point. "Can you say the same for someone caught laundering money for Hamas or ISIS? That it's a victimless crime?" He did not launder money. He just did a cryptocurrency presentation.

sangnoir 5y ago

> Five years in prison seems like a disproportionate punishment for an arguably victimless crime It's not victimless: the United States (government) is the victim, albeit one that's not particularly sympathetic. Just because the victim is diffuse/a collective doesn't mean the wrongs against it are victimless - this is about as victimless as handing over nuclear secrets to another country (in quality, not severity).

jacquesm 5y ago
I would say the people of NK are the victim of anything that further strengthens the regime there.

gnulinux 5y ago

What? North Korean government is the most totalitarian, brutal, ruthless state in the world today. You can't just play "there is no victim" card when you illegally help out an enemy government like that. Even if you're ideologically or for some other reason inclined to support NK, you need to understand that being a US citizen makes your actions extremely impactful on world stage. It seems like Virgil was truly in a position to help NK, which makes him responsible. I think the punishment is not nearly enough. I believe the same thing should be done to people helping Russia evade sanctions too.

eldenwrong 5y ago
chatmasta 5y ago
This argument would be more convincing if he provided material support to NK and didn’t simply relay publicly available information. It seems he’s been sanctioned primarily for his speech, not selling weapons or purchasing contraband. And it’s not like he was divulging state secrets. Anyway, the conviction mostly makes sense to me. The sentencing seems disproportionate.
9991 5y ago

m3kw9 5y ago

“ I don’t see how this benefits society in any way.” The law breaks down when you start giving exceptions to the law arbitrarily

madacol 5y ago
If it's not arbitrary, then why stop there? Why not imprison every cryptocurrency developer?, they are all enabling a new way to avoid sanctions, some much better than others Where do you draw the line so that it's not arbitrary?
- otterley 5y ago
  Our entire legal system is built on the exercise of line drawing. Where those lines are drawn is the result of debate and compromise. It's never perfect, but it's better than not having any lines at all.

some_random 5y ago

Yeah, a victimless crime. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_trafficking_in_North_Korea https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_trafficking_in_North_Kor... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_North_Korea https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_North_Korea https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kwalliso https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kwalliso https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korea_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korea_and_weapons_of_mas...

nyolfen 5y ago
interesting. let's see the CCP's human rights record
- some_random 5y ago
  Sure, these'll get you started https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_genocide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_genocide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_harvesting_from_Falun_Gong_practitioners_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_harvesting_from_Falun_Go... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_jails https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_jails
  - nyolfen 5y ago
    does buying iphones qualify as treason or whatever
- alephnan 5y ago
  interesting. let's see the United States' human rights record
w7 5y ago
Don't forget https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korean_abductions_of_Japanese_citizens https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korean_abductions_of_Jap... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korean_abductions_of_South_Koreans https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korean_abductions_of_Sou...

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

paxys 5y ago

So, people shouldn't face consequences for criminal actions because they are nerdy and good with computers? That's not how the real world works. Aiding a dictatorship in evading sanctions is very far from "victimless".