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Proposed bill would shorten California workweek to 32 hours

172 points by nomagicbullet 5y ago

acwan93 5y ago
Serious question, and maybe this is just based on the people I've met: I've been hearing lots of business owners complaining about California's labor laws getting increasingly hostile which leads companies to relocate or move as many resources they can outside of CA, much like Tesla did. Does anyone else share that sentiment? I personally think that this is well-intentioned but has consequences that need to be thought out before it becomes law.
- _boffin_ 5y ago
  I have an extremely close friend, who is at the C-Level, that just shocked me with news of moving to Boulder, Colorado due to the hostile California laws. I haven't gone in detail with him about what laws/ordinances are specifically having him move there, but yeah...
  - enduroman 5y ago
    Company I'm at moved headquarters from CA to TX. A bunch of execs left CA too with the relocation. Only people staying are the ones who love SF.
  - rhexs 5y ago
    Boulder is California-light. Colorado doesn’t yet have the endemic corruption you get with uniparty states like California, but with all the Californians moving there and doing the same thing, it’s coming. The rise in homelessness in Boulder in just the past few years is amazing.
    - chiefofgxbxl 5y ago
      I lived in Highlands Ranch, CO for roughly half a year, and man the suburban sprawl in anything outside of Boulder is on steroids. My impression of Colorado is that it's a "hot" place to be right now (very much hyped as the place to escape to), but that will in time be expended as housing costs skyrocket and no new housing can be built because everything is interconnected by a 6-8 lane highway. Reference: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Highlands+Ranch,+CO/@39.5527613,-105.0076964,1257m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x876c82f082d15d0b:0x11f163cd6b8cdb49!8m2!3d39.5480789!4d-104.9739333 https://www.google.com/maps/place/Highlands+Ranch,+CO/@39.55...
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
- 88913527 5y ago
  I don't necessarily share the sentiment, but I am curious to hear the case for the consequences. California is basically its own economy: the state can make its own rules, so from my perspective, the state has more power to set the rules. Other states, at best, can market themselves as "not California"-- something to run from, but not necessarily something to run to.
  - toomuchtodo 5y ago
    Indeed, California is the fifth largest economy in the world, ahead of the UK and India (based on GDP).
    - newaccount2021 5y ago
  - BlueTankEngine 5y ago
    I think there most certainly is something to run to. Lower taxes, less regulations to comply with, state-level offices willing to get on the phone and make things happen to bring innovative businesses to the state, lower cost of living, better weather. Whether or not you think all these things are good things for a state to have, or whether you think Texas represents your values, it most definitely offers something to run to, even in a world without California.
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > I've been hearing lots of business owners complaining about California's labor laws getting increasingly hostile which leads companies to relocate or move as many resources they can outside of CA I’m almost 50, and I’ve been hearing and reading lots of this my whole life. But somehow California’s economy keeps doing well, even without being one of the places that are winning the battle to attract the firms that are optimizing for maximally emoployee-hostile labor laws.
  - enriquec 5y ago
    economy doing well? are you telling me that cities that are completely unaffordable and overrun with crime, homelessness, and drug abuse - along with mass exodus - are signs of a healthy economy? I live here. I'm fighting the good fight - and it isn't working. It's getting worse every day.
    - voxl 5y ago
      Why are they signs of an unhealthy economy? Gentrification and bad zoning laws alone could explain many of your examples.
      - enriquec 5y ago
        Weird comment. Could you define gentrification? For decades, "Gentrification" has the go-to for the people that applaud tesla leaving and Amazon being rejected by New York. Ironically, those same people are strong proponents of zoning and centralized planning of the whole state. Pretty fed up with their outsized control and demonization of anyone that tries to make things better.
        throw_nbvc1234 5y ago
        Death tax vs estate tax. Immigration vs international talent acquisition. UBI vs Freedom Dividend. Gentrification vs Multi-family zoning. The (twitter centric) left would make much more progress in America if they worked on better messaging instead of just relying on moral arguments.
- junofan 5y ago
  We took our business elsewhere. It’s becoming crazytown back there.
- me_me_mu_mu 5y ago
  I feel like these trends are waves and we are currently in the down trend. I think we’ll see a bigger uptrend once the economy stabilizes again. We are in a multi prong proxy battle between energy sources and work/life shift. Once people figure out this change I’m sure things will get better as they did for other cities like nyc. Things were really awful back in the day and got better, then got worse, then got better again. Also, companies might move their headquarters to Texas or whatever but people deep down (workers and probably also the company owners) prefer the lifestyle and experiences that California offers. California coast cities are amazingly beautiful and offer diverse range of activities outdoors and venue wise, and no massive McMansion in 100 degree Texas heat where you have AC blasting and Have to drive eight lane highways everywhere will ever replace the fact you can just hop on your bicycle and ride five min to the beach. I’m just going off anecdote from friends here.
  - jandrewrogers 5y ago
    > you can just hop on your bicycle and ride five min to the beach I can assure you that the percentage of Californians that enjoy this lifestyle is vanishingly small. I've lived in all three coastal metros in California, was an avid user of the beach and hate driving; this lifestyle is not realistically achievable for most people that live there, even the average person in tech. Most engineers aren't trading a house in Santa Monica for a house in Texas. They are trading a house in South San Jose. That lifestyle is much less different.
- thurn 5y ago
  Tesla's 'move' was a PR thing -- the great majority of the engineering team is staying in CA.
  - JaimeThompson 5y ago
    It was also Musk searching for even more subsidies from the Texas state government.
karaterobot 5y ago
> Practically speaking, large employers would be required to compensate employees the same amount of pay for fewer hours worked. Not sure that's true, unless the bill also mandates that employers continue paying the same amount to salaried employees. I assume what'll happen instead is that salaries go down to compensate, and wage employees get fewer hours. Personally, I'd be okay with that, but many people wouldn't want to take that hit. Worth noting that this article is written by Fisher Phillips, a law firm that, according to Wikipedia, represents management exclusively, so they are not an unbiased source.
- oneoff786 5y ago
  I doubt this though. Over the long term it’s about being competitive. The marginal value of a salaried employee hour is small. It’s the base availability that provides the most value.
mrfusion 5y ago
I really feel like work would be quite tolerable at 4 days a week. 5 days plus commute has always felt suffocating to me.
- throwawayboise 5y ago
  Consider that people used to work every day. Farming, hunting, subsisting. When organized religion and cities started to spread, you had one day a week as the day of rest. The industrial age and unionization brought us 5 days, which is now "suffocating." So if 4 days is the norm, that would start to feel suffocating also. Then it would be 3 days. Then, when work is the thing you spend the minority of your time on, you start to ask yourself "why am I doing this at all?"
  - thot_experiment 5y ago
    > Then it would be 3 days. Then, when work is the thing you spend the minority of your time on, you start to ask yourself "why am I doing this at all?" I think you hit the nail right on the head there my guy. Also once the agricultural revolution happened peasants likely had much more unallocated than the typical office worker in the united states, probably by at least an order of magnitude. I'm not claiming it was a better life but there was a greater amount of self determination which is absolutely something we should strive toward.
  - alar44 5y ago
    They may have worked every day, but not all day, and not through every season. Yes farming is hard work, but you don't work from 6-6 every day. Also your slippery slope argument is silly.
  - q3k 5y ago
    … you do realize farming isn’t a whole year thing at most latitudes, right?
  - bluefirebrand 5y ago
    > Consider that people used to work every day. Farming, hunting, subsisting. I would be surprised if individuals in a hunter/gatherer tribe used to work more than 8 hours every single day. Most people also used to be in survival mode for their entire lives. That shouldn't be what we are aiming for today.
ng55QPSK 5y ago
My regular workweek is 35h (unionizing helps) and if it would be possible to have working IT processes and reduce some managment overhead, i could be productive the level in 30h (and actually i am). Shorter workweeks makes people focus.
- t0mas88 5y ago
  I've seen several cases here where going from 40 to 32 hours to have time for kids (very very common in NL) has kept the same or better productivity. Of course those were all desk jobs, where it's not about exactly how many hours you're typing code or writing ideas but about the output. I expect it to be less applicable for assembly line kind of work.
gdubs 5y ago
I’ve said this many times before but keep in mind that people were strongly opposed to the 40hr workweek and it ultimately led to higher productivity. Less illness and injury, primarily. Source: The Rise and Fall of American Growth.
- rafale 5y ago
  Not sure there is causation there. A lot of factors contributed to the decrease in illness and injury, including the jobs themselves, a lot of the dangerous ones either got outsourced or died out.
mrichman 5y ago
[flagged]
- dehrmann 5y ago
  You're probably getting downvoted because you're coming at this from a bad place, but asking what's the ideal time per week spent working (depending on the job and what you're optimizing for) and what's the minimum where you're still effective is fair to ask.
  - pastacacioepepe 5y ago
    When it's about work you don't do for pleasure or passion, the rule is simple: the least worked the better.
- alar44 5y ago
  Someone's jelly! You can keep working as much as you like, surely you'll be more successful right?
Animats 5y ago
What we need is more enforcement of existing labor laws. A 40-hour work week with teeth. No "unpaid overtime". No "time shaving". Out of hours phone calls count as work time, with a minimum time for a call. (3 hours in the movie industry).
- marricks 5y ago
  We need a slew of things to change but not much will with the current power imbalances. Courts still won't/aren't going to hold companies accountable when million dollar lawyers and well priced bribes can save their assess. Arguing about which band aid is best feels a bit like a distraction.
- thot_experiment 5y ago
  Yes, I mean we should also have a 32 hour work week but the laws surrounding it need teeth for sure. We should hold executives/managers criminally liable with the potential for jail time for repeat offenses. It's absolutely fucking absurd that shoplifting, especially when performed by disadvantaged folks carries harsher penalties than systematic wage theft. It's upside down clown world out there, abusing your position of power is FAR worse than stealing to eat or even fund a drug habit.
  - pc86 5y ago
    Are you saying the punishment for shoplifting should be less if you're disadvantaged compared to if you're not?
    - thot_experiment 5y ago
      No, I'm saying the reality is that the punishment often IS harsher if you're from a disadvantaged group. I think the punishments should be harsher for wage theft than shoplifting because the former is abusing a position of power, which I believe to be more corrosive to the fabric of society. Though I also believe punishments should be proportional to your means, see for example speeding tickets in Finland. You shouldn't be able to afford to ignore the rules.
chollida1 5y ago
What would happen to people's salaries in this case. Right now i'd bet most employment contracts for salary states 40 hours a week as a work week. Would everyone take a 20% pay cut? Would people try to keep the same pay for fewer hours.
- bluefirebrand 5y ago
  People would keep the same pay for fewer hours and companies would be lucky if that's all it is. Keep in mind that wages and salaries have been largely stagnant for decades. Companies and corporations owe their workers a hell of a lot more than "same pay at fewer hours" by now.
hollasch 5y ago
Increasingly, American political parties are most interested in seizing and wielding power, and I feel like most citizens are occupied with surrendering and assigning that power to their preferred political party. How in the world did we get here? Is there any way we can turn back? Most of the discussion here is about whether mandating business practice would be a good or a bad business move, but hardly anyone is questioning whether this is a good or legitimate role for those in government to decree and mandate. More and more, I see governments mandating changes that already appear to be underway, but in a way that accrues the praise and rewards to themselves. Most Americans seem to be complicit in this transformation, continually voting greater and greater control and authority away from the people and toward government powers.
- monocasa 5y ago
  The definition of the length of the work week and who it applies to is already a concept defined by government.
  - artificialLimbs 5y ago
    Unfortunately. People should be able to negotiate between themselves without interference from the government.
    - camdat 5y ago
      As should children! Why should the pesky government step in the way of my child working in a factory.
      - bombcar 5y ago
        Child labor should be reserved for the Girl Scouts as God intended!
      - User23 5y ago
        It doesn’t if your family business is farming.
xivzgrev 5y ago
Note this seems to apply only to hourly workers. All of us salaried techies need to keep waiting for free market to open this up
- thot_experiment 5y ago
  Unionize, refuse to be on call, refuse to answer slack messages outside of work hours. If working in tech, and at startups specifically has taught me one thing it's that urgency is ALWAYS fake, you can put the fire out tomorrow morning. If there aren't consequences for bad planning then the bad planning continues. See also: financial bailouts of pretty much any kind, the cost of mistakes needs to be adequately large.
  - alar44 5y ago
    It's a great thought, but I'd be fired pretty quickly if I tried that. You will also not find a new job with those demands. You know what I do to offset the after hours stuff? I slack the fuck off all day. It's not like anyone knows what I do anyway. "Hey Alar, what you up to today? -Oh y'know, just getting these switches up to date, gotta keep the packets flowing! Also have some phone stuff to do and getting the servers ready for patching this weekend! -Wow great job!" Wake up at 8, "check email" until 9. Head to the office to show some face and actually check emails and do communication til 10. From 10-12 follow up with requests and put out any actual fires. 12-130 lunch. 130-330 knock out a meeting or two and then head home to "get my notes together and plan the next day" aka crack open a 6 pack. I know this isn't always possible, but as long as you deliver SOMETHING every day, no one questions the infra "wizard".
    - thot_experiment 5y ago
      Sure this is a valid strategy, one I've also employed, but I would prefer a world where we can be open about the fact that we don't actually work nearly as hard as we pretend to rather than the current situation. Dishonesty shouldn't be rewarded. > It's a great thought, but I'd be fired pretty quickly if I tried that. Hence the call for unionization.
- 5y ago
jayski 5y ago
I've worked for 6 different employers in my life, Ive also employed people. 100% of my experience is that its rare for someone to ping me out of work hours, and if they do, I completely understand that its an emergency. Since I also care about the company's well being, (that's where I get my paycheck from), Im happy to help. In 20 years as an employee or employer this has happened maybe 5 times. I don't know where people are working that this is even an issue, but if at all possible consider switching jobs because youre working with sociopaths. 32 is too low, employers are going to leave California even more if this is approved.
- holoduke 5y ago
  I guess you work in IT like 90% of the people here. For those (and me) fixed working hours are non existent. But if you work in a factory , shop etc like 90% of the other people then a 32 hour work week would very much help getting a happier life. Maybe this won't work in the US. But in Europe I think it certainly does.
  - jayski 5y ago
    I do work in IT. You make good points, my job involves a lot of sitting down and honestly slacking. If I worked standing up at a factory Im sure I would want 32 hours
  - readams 5y ago
    What prevents an hourly employee from working 32 hours now? It seems like many hourly employees have the opposite problem: they want more hours but they can't get them scheduled.
swarnie 5y ago
Not sure what the current work week is (assuming 40?). Does anyone actually "work" close to that amount? I've got mine down to about 8 hours with an additional 8 of meetings where i sit on mute and contribute nothing.
tlogan 5y ago
This bill affects only hourly workers, which means that Walmarts and other companies will just cut their work week and pay employees less. They are not going to pay them overtime if they work more. And poor people will need to find an extra job to keep up with bills. The only poeple who might benefit are hourly gov employees - but that depends on budget constrains.
- micromacrofoot 5y ago
  if walmart employees unionize it could go a long way to prevent that
  - tlogan 5y ago
    Exactly!!
- Ericson2314 5y ago
  This is poor reasoning. It assumes there will be enough extra jobs, but there is a friction to that. Wallmart trying to staff up with more people will also not be trivial for them, and come with more fixed costs. Obviously it would be better with a magic way to get rid of second jobs for poor workers (and stuff like UBI and JG nicely avoid these issues without magic) but it still would be win for labor.
kleiba 5y ago
There's no English equivalent, so please excuse the use of Google translate: https://de-m-wikipedia-org.translate.goog/wiki/Auseinandersetzungen_um_die_35-Stunden-Woche?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp https://de-m-wikipedia-org.translate.goog/wiki/Auseinanderse... This is the German wikipedia entry on the conflicts that trade unions and employers' associations in Germany have fought over the reduction of weekly working hours since the late 1970s.
kleiba 5y ago
If I subtract the time I spend checking my social media while pretending to work, I'm probably already doing a 32 hour work week...
- dizzant 5y ago
  This grinds my gears. I'm a part time at my office (govt contractor), and do more work in 20 hours than some others on my team do in 40. Restrictions on firing underperformers put us in the position of "needing" 40 hours in the workweek.
  - jcpst 5y ago
    Let’s give them the benefit and say they get all their expected tasks done in that 32 hours. What’s disappointing is wasting that time on social media, when those extra 8 hours could be to improve a process, do some self-learning, mentoring, research… at least, that’s what I do if what I need to get done doesn’t fill the week.
    - linedash 5y ago
      Or you know; you could have a healthier work life balance whilst getting that same level of work done in the 32 hours.
mbgerring 5y ago
You can already have this as a salaried worker if you negotiate well when you get a new job, and I highly recommend it. Most people barely work on Friday anyway.
newaccount2021 5y ago
qiskit 5y ago
Instead of all these regulations, why not institute basic income. If every adult was given $2000 ( or whatever figure we come up with ) you wouldn't have to create so many laws. Minimum wage, work hours, retirement, diversity, etc laws would be unnecessary because it would be difficult to exploit people whose needs are met. Why pass hundreds of laws when you can pass 1 that solves all the problem?
- coconut08 5y ago
  basic income definitely doesn't mean they can deregulate everything else. it greatly lessens the leverage these businesses have over workers but the leverage doesn't go away entirely. also basic income doesn't solve every problem.
- andrei_says_ 5y ago
  $2000 barely covers rent ( 1 br LA/SF). We’d also need rent control legislation to prevent rents from rising to absorb the UBI. Apart from that I agree - UBI is the simplest, cheapest way to lift the population out of poverty. The outcomes are fantastic - I recommend Rutger Bregman’s book on it.
  - qiskit 5y ago
    > $2000 barely covers rent ( 1 br LA/SF). The market will develop housing for basic income people or you could always move to lower cost areas. > We’d also need rent control legislation to prevent rents from rising to absorb the UBI. Nope. If people are given basic income, the market will develop housing/services to cater to them.
    - ac29 5y ago
      "The market" has shown itself to be woefully inadequate at developing housing for those on the lower part of the income scale. I'm not sure why that would change under a basic income scenario.
    - Rebelgecko 5y ago
      The market hasn't developed housing for people on the current minimum wage, so I have my doubts that it would be any different with UBI
exabrial 5y ago
I really hope this passes, just so we can see how stupid defining these things in legislature. This should be decided by employers, not politicians. If employers have too much power then you have a monopoly problem and you should do something about it, not rake small businesses over the coals. I would love a 4 day work week, but only if it meant my job is secure. This is the worst way to go about it.
abeppu 5y ago
As with the bill that Rep Takano introduced in Congress, I feel like the media are not discussing this in at all a reasonable way. It is _not_ a bill to shorten the workweek. It's a bill to change the line at which employers pay overtime ... to workers who would get overtime. In California, for employers of the size mentioned here, workers become exempt at around ~$62k/yr. The BLS has stats for California which annoyingly give the median hourly wage, and the average annual comp (~$65.5k), but not the median annual comp. But certainly large fraction of workers are above the 'exempt' line, possibly more than half. Add to that a lot of workers are: - working for employers smaller than 500 staff in CA - some form of contractor - working multiple jobs (perhaps less now than a few years ago) What's the proportion of workers who would be impacted by this? And how many workers are not yet exempt, but are close enough to the exempt line that employers will be better off giving them a raise to an exempt salary and then demanding more hours per week? https://www.shouselaw.com/ca/labor/wage-and-hour/salary-laws/ https://www.shouselaw.com/ca/labor/wage-and-hour/salary-laws... https://www.bls.gov/oes/2020/may/oes_ca.htm#00-0000 https://www.bls.gov/oes/2020/may/oes_ca.htm#00-0000
dmode 5y ago
All this discussion is moot, since this bill not pass.
mrlonglong 5y ago
Oh, nice. California, here I come!
rdtwo 5y ago
Why don’t they start at 40 for everyone. That would be a great start Shes create another 20-30% more job openings
peapicker 5y ago
Govt. mandates 32 hr workweeks. Employers drop pay 20%. Not shocked.
skd23423 5y ago
Thought provoking essay by Bertrand Russell on idleness. https://harpers.org/archive/1932/10/in-praise-of-idleness/ https://harpers.org/archive/1932/10/in-praise-of-idleness/

172 points by nomagicbullet 5y ago

Serious question, and maybe this is just based on the people I've met: I've been hearing lots of business owners complaining about California's labor laws getting increasingly hostile which leads companies to relocate or move as many resources they can outside of CA, much like Tesla did. Does anyone else share that sentiment? I personally think that this is well-intentioned but has consequences that need to be thought out before it becomes law.

_boffin_ 5y ago
I have an extremely close friend, who is at the C-Level, that just shocked me with news of moving to Boulder, Colorado due to the hostile California laws. I haven't gone in detail with him about what laws/ordinances are specifically having him move there, but yeah...
- enduroman 5y ago
  Company I'm at moved headquarters from CA to TX. A bunch of execs left CA too with the relocation. Only people staying are the ones who love SF.
- rhexs 5y ago
  Boulder is California-light. Colorado doesn’t yet have the endemic corruption you get with uniparty states like California, but with all the Californians moving there and doing the same thing, it’s coming. The rise in homelessness in Boulder in just the past few years is amazing.
  - chiefofgxbxl 5y ago
    I lived in Highlands Ranch, CO for roughly half a year, and man the suburban sprawl in anything outside of Boulder is on steroids. My impression of Colorado is that it's a "hot" place to be right now (very much hyped as the place to escape to), but that will in time be expended as housing costs skyrocket and no new housing can be built because everything is interconnected by a 6-8 lane highway. Reference: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Highlands+Ranch,+CO/@39.5527613,-105.0076964,1257m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x876c82f082d15d0b:0x11f163cd6b8cdb49!8m2!3d39.5480789!4d-104.9739333 https://www.google.com/maps/place/Highlands+Ranch,+CO/@39.55...
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
88913527 5y ago
I don't necessarily share the sentiment, but I am curious to hear the case for the consequences. California is basically its own economy: the state can make its own rules, so from my perspective, the state has more power to set the rules. Other states, at best, can market themselves as "not California"-- something to run from, but not necessarily something to run to.
- toomuchtodo 5y ago
  Indeed, California is the fifth largest economy in the world, ahead of the UK and India (based on GDP).
  - newaccount2021 5y ago
- BlueTankEngine 5y ago
  I think there most certainly is something to run to. Lower taxes, less regulations to comply with, state-level offices willing to get on the phone and make things happen to bring innovative businesses to the state, lower cost of living, better weather. Whether or not you think all these things are good things for a state to have, or whether you think Texas represents your values, it most definitely offers something to run to, even in a world without California.
dragonwriter 5y ago
> I've been hearing lots of business owners complaining about California's labor laws getting increasingly hostile which leads companies to relocate or move as many resources they can outside of CA I’m almost 50, and I’ve been hearing and reading lots of this my whole life. But somehow California’s economy keeps doing well, even without being one of the places that are winning the battle to attract the firms that are optimizing for maximally emoployee-hostile labor laws.
- enriquec 5y ago
  economy doing well? are you telling me that cities that are completely unaffordable and overrun with crime, homelessness, and drug abuse - along with mass exodus - are signs of a healthy economy? I live here. I'm fighting the good fight - and it isn't working. It's getting worse every day.
  - voxl 5y ago
    Why are they signs of an unhealthy economy? Gentrification and bad zoning laws alone could explain many of your examples.
    - enriquec 5y ago
      Weird comment. Could you define gentrification? For decades, "Gentrification" has the go-to for the people that applaud tesla leaving and Amazon being rejected by New York. Ironically, those same people are strong proponents of zoning and centralized planning of the whole state. Pretty fed up with their outsized control and demonization of anyone that tries to make things better.
      - throw_nbvc1234 5y ago
        Death tax vs estate tax. Immigration vs international talent acquisition. UBI vs Freedom Dividend. Gentrification vs Multi-family zoning. The (twitter centric) left would make much more progress in America if they worked on better messaging instead of just relying on moral arguments.
junofan 5y ago
We took our business elsewhere. It’s becoming crazytown back there.
me_me_mu_mu 5y ago
I feel like these trends are waves and we are currently in the down trend. I think we’ll see a bigger uptrend once the economy stabilizes again. We are in a multi prong proxy battle between energy sources and work/life shift. Once people figure out this change I’m sure things will get better as they did for other cities like nyc. Things were really awful back in the day and got better, then got worse, then got better again. Also, companies might move their headquarters to Texas or whatever but people deep down (workers and probably also the company owners) prefer the lifestyle and experiences that California offers. California coast cities are amazingly beautiful and offer diverse range of activities outdoors and venue wise, and no massive McMansion in 100 degree Texas heat where you have AC blasting and Have to drive eight lane highways everywhere will ever replace the fact you can just hop on your bicycle and ride five min to the beach. I’m just going off anecdote from friends here.
- jandrewrogers 5y ago
  > you can just hop on your bicycle and ride five min to the beach I can assure you that the percentage of Californians that enjoy this lifestyle is vanishingly small. I've lived in all three coastal metros in California, was an avid user of the beach and hate driving; this lifestyle is not realistically achievable for most people that live there, even the average person in tech. Most engineers aren't trading a house in Santa Monica for a house in Texas. They are trading a house in South San Jose. That lifestyle is much less different.
thurn 5y ago
Tesla's 'move' was a PR thing -- the great majority of the engineering team is staying in CA.
- JaimeThompson 5y ago
  It was also Musk searching for even more subsidies from the Texas state government.

karaterobot 5y ago

> Practically speaking, large employers would be required to compensate employees the same amount of pay for fewer hours worked. Not sure that's true, unless the bill also mandates that employers continue paying the same amount to salaried employees. I assume what'll happen instead is that salaries go down to compensate, and wage employees get fewer hours. Personally, I'd be okay with that, but many people wouldn't want to take that hit. Worth noting that this article is written by Fisher Phillips, a law firm that, according to Wikipedia, represents management exclusively, so they are not an unbiased source.

oneoff786 5y ago
I doubt this though. Over the long term it’s about being competitive. The marginal value of a salaried employee hour is small. It’s the base availability that provides the most value.

mrfusion 5y ago

I really feel like work would be quite tolerable at 4 days a week. 5 days plus commute has always felt suffocating to me.

throwawayboise 5y ago
Consider that people used to work every day. Farming, hunting, subsisting. When organized religion and cities started to spread, you had one day a week as the day of rest. The industrial age and unionization brought us 5 days, which is now "suffocating." So if 4 days is the norm, that would start to feel suffocating also. Then it would be 3 days. Then, when work is the thing you spend the minority of your time on, you start to ask yourself "why am I doing this at all?"
- thot_experiment 5y ago
  > Then it would be 3 days. Then, when work is the thing you spend the minority of your time on, you start to ask yourself "why am I doing this at all?" I think you hit the nail right on the head there my guy. Also once the agricultural revolution happened peasants likely had much more unallocated than the typical office worker in the united states, probably by at least an order of magnitude. I'm not claiming it was a better life but there was a greater amount of self determination which is absolutely something we should strive toward.
- alar44 5y ago
  They may have worked every day, but not all day, and not through every season. Yes farming is hard work, but you don't work from 6-6 every day. Also your slippery slope argument is silly.
- q3k 5y ago
  … you do realize farming isn’t a whole year thing at most latitudes, right?
- bluefirebrand 5y ago
  > Consider that people used to work every day. Farming, hunting, subsisting. I would be surprised if individuals in a hunter/gatherer tribe used to work more than 8 hours every single day. Most people also used to be in survival mode for their entire lives. That shouldn't be what we are aiming for today.

ng55QPSK 5y ago

My regular workweek is 35h (unionizing helps) and if it would be possible to have working IT processes and reduce some managment overhead, i could be productive the level in 30h (and actually i am). Shorter workweeks makes people focus.

t0mas88 5y ago
I've seen several cases here where going from 40 to 32 hours to have time for kids (very very common in NL) has kept the same or better productivity. Of course those were all desk jobs, where it's not about exactly how many hours you're typing code or writing ideas but about the output. I expect it to be less applicable for assembly line kind of work.

gdubs 5y ago

I’ve said this many times before but keep in mind that people were strongly opposed to the 40hr workweek and it ultimately led to higher productivity. Less illness and injury, primarily. Source: The Rise and Fall of American Growth.

rafale 5y ago
Not sure there is causation there. A lot of factors contributed to the decrease in illness and injury, including the jobs themselves, a lot of the dangerous ones either got outsourced or died out.

mrichman 5y ago

[flagged]

dehrmann 5y ago
You're probably getting downvoted because you're coming at this from a bad place, but asking what's the ideal time per week spent working (depending on the job and what you're optimizing for) and what's the minimum where you're still effective is fair to ask.
- pastacacioepepe 5y ago
  When it's about work you don't do for pleasure or passion, the rule is simple: the least worked the better.
alar44 5y ago
Someone's jelly! You can keep working as much as you like, surely you'll be more successful right?

Animats 5y ago

What we need is more enforcement of existing labor laws. A 40-hour work week with teeth. No "unpaid overtime". No "time shaving". Out of hours phone calls count as work time, with a minimum time for a call. (3 hours in the movie industry).

marricks 5y ago
We need a slew of things to change but not much will with the current power imbalances. Courts still won't/aren't going to hold companies accountable when million dollar lawyers and well priced bribes can save their assess. Arguing about which band aid is best feels a bit like a distraction.
thot_experiment 5y ago
Yes, I mean we should also have a 32 hour work week but the laws surrounding it need teeth for sure. We should hold executives/managers criminally liable with the potential for jail time for repeat offenses. It's absolutely fucking absurd that shoplifting, especially when performed by disadvantaged folks carries harsher penalties than systematic wage theft. It's upside down clown world out there, abusing your position of power is FAR worse than stealing to eat or even fund a drug habit.
- pc86 5y ago
  Are you saying the punishment for shoplifting should be less if you're disadvantaged compared to if you're not?
  - thot_experiment 5y ago
    No, I'm saying the reality is that the punishment often IS harsher if you're from a disadvantaged group. I think the punishments should be harsher for wage theft than shoplifting because the former is abusing a position of power, which I believe to be more corrosive to the fabric of society. Though I also believe punishments should be proportional to your means, see for example speeding tickets in Finland. You shouldn't be able to afford to ignore the rules.

chollida1 5y ago

What would happen to people's salaries in this case. Right now i'd bet most employment contracts for salary states 40 hours a week as a work week. Would everyone take a 20% pay cut? Would people try to keep the same pay for fewer hours.

bluefirebrand 5y ago
People would keep the same pay for fewer hours and companies would be lucky if that's all it is. Keep in mind that wages and salaries have been largely stagnant for decades. Companies and corporations owe their workers a hell of a lot more than "same pay at fewer hours" by now.

hollasch 5y ago

Increasingly, American political parties are most interested in seizing and wielding power, and I feel like most citizens are occupied with surrendering and assigning that power to their preferred political party. How in the world did we get here? Is there any way we can turn back? Most of the discussion here is about whether mandating business practice would be a good or a bad business move, but hardly anyone is questioning whether this is a good or legitimate role for those in government to decree and mandate. More and more, I see governments mandating changes that already appear to be underway, but in a way that accrues the praise and rewards to themselves. Most Americans seem to be complicit in this transformation, continually voting greater and greater control and authority away from the people and toward government powers.

monocasa 5y ago
The definition of the length of the work week and who it applies to is already a concept defined by government.
- artificialLimbs 5y ago
  Unfortunately. People should be able to negotiate between themselves without interference from the government.
  - camdat 5y ago
    As should children! Why should the pesky government step in the way of my child working in a factory.
    - bombcar 5y ago
      Child labor should be reserved for the Girl Scouts as God intended!
    - User23 5y ago
      It doesn’t if your family business is farming.

xivzgrev 5y ago

Note this seems to apply only to hourly workers. All of us salaried techies need to keep waiting for free market to open this up

thot_experiment 5y ago
Unionize, refuse to be on call, refuse to answer slack messages outside of work hours. If working in tech, and at startups specifically has taught me one thing it's that urgency is ALWAYS fake, you can put the fire out tomorrow morning. If there aren't consequences for bad planning then the bad planning continues. See also: financial bailouts of pretty much any kind, the cost of mistakes needs to be adequately large.
- alar44 5y ago
  It's a great thought, but I'd be fired pretty quickly if I tried that. You will also not find a new job with those demands. You know what I do to offset the after hours stuff? I slack the fuck off all day. It's not like anyone knows what I do anyway. "Hey Alar, what you up to today? -Oh y'know, just getting these switches up to date, gotta keep the packets flowing! Also have some phone stuff to do and getting the servers ready for patching this weekend! -Wow great job!" Wake up at 8, "check email" until 9. Head to the office to show some face and actually check emails and do communication til 10. From 10-12 follow up with requests and put out any actual fires. 12-130 lunch. 130-330 knock out a meeting or two and then head home to "get my notes together and plan the next day" aka crack open a 6 pack. I know this isn't always possible, but as long as you deliver SOMETHING every day, no one questions the infra "wizard".
  - thot_experiment 5y ago
    Sure this is a valid strategy, one I've also employed, but I would prefer a world where we can be open about the fact that we don't actually work nearly as hard as we pretend to rather than the current situation. Dishonesty shouldn't be rewarded. > It's a great thought, but I'd be fired pretty quickly if I tried that. Hence the call for unionization.
5y ago

jayski 5y ago

I've worked for 6 different employers in my life, Ive also employed people. 100% of my experience is that its rare for someone to ping me out of work hours, and if they do, I completely understand that its an emergency. Since I also care about the company's well being, (that's where I get my paycheck from), Im happy to help. In 20 years as an employee or employer this has happened maybe 5 times. I don't know where people are working that this is even an issue, but if at all possible consider switching jobs because youre working with sociopaths. 32 is too low, employers are going to leave California even more if this is approved.

holoduke 5y ago
I guess you work in IT like 90% of the people here. For those (and me) fixed working hours are non existent. But if you work in a factory , shop etc like 90% of the other people then a 32 hour work week would very much help getting a happier life. Maybe this won't work in the US. But in Europe I think it certainly does.
- jayski 5y ago
  I do work in IT. You make good points, my job involves a lot of sitting down and honestly slacking. If I worked standing up at a factory Im sure I would want 32 hours
- readams 5y ago
  What prevents an hourly employee from working 32 hours now? It seems like many hourly employees have the opposite problem: they want more hours but they can't get them scheduled.

swarnie 5y ago

Not sure what the current work week is (assuming 40?). Does anyone actually "work" close to that amount? I've got mine down to about 8 hours with an additional 8 of meetings where i sit on mute and contribute nothing.

tlogan 5y ago

This bill affects only hourly workers, which means that Walmarts and other companies will just cut their work week and pay employees less. They are not going to pay them overtime if they work more. And poor people will need to find an extra job to keep up with bills. The only poeple who might benefit are hourly gov employees - but that depends on budget constrains.

micromacrofoot 5y ago
if walmart employees unionize it could go a long way to prevent that
- tlogan 5y ago
  Exactly!!
Ericson2314 5y ago
This is poor reasoning. It assumes there will be enough extra jobs, but there is a friction to that. Wallmart trying to staff up with more people will also not be trivial for them, and come with more fixed costs. Obviously it would be better with a magic way to get rid of second jobs for poor workers (and stuff like UBI and JG nicely avoid these issues without magic) but it still would be win for labor.

kleiba 5y ago

There's no English equivalent, so please excuse the use of Google translate: https://de-m-wikipedia-org.translate.goog/wiki/Auseinandersetzungen_um_die_35-Stunden-Woche?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp https://de-m-wikipedia-org.translate.goog/wiki/Auseinanderse... This is the German wikipedia entry on the conflicts that trade unions and employers' associations in Germany have fought over the reduction of weekly working hours since the late 1970s.

kleiba 5y ago

If I subtract the time I spend checking my social media while pretending to work, I'm probably already doing a 32 hour work week...

dizzant 5y ago
This grinds my gears. I'm a part time at my office (govt contractor), and do more work in 20 hours than some others on my team do in 40. Restrictions on firing underperformers put us in the position of "needing" 40 hours in the workweek.
- jcpst 5y ago
  Let’s give them the benefit and say they get all their expected tasks done in that 32 hours. What’s disappointing is wasting that time on social media, when those extra 8 hours could be to improve a process, do some self-learning, mentoring, research… at least, that’s what I do if what I need to get done doesn’t fill the week.
  - linedash 5y ago
    Or you know; you could have a healthier work life balance whilst getting that same level of work done in the 32 hours.

mbgerring 5y ago

You can already have this as a salaried worker if you negotiate well when you get a new job, and I highly recommend it. Most people barely work on Friday anyway.

newaccount2021 5y ago

qiskit 5y ago

Instead of all these regulations, why not institute basic income. If every adult was given $2000 ( or whatever figure we come up with ) you wouldn't have to create so many laws. Minimum wage, work hours, retirement, diversity, etc laws would be unnecessary because it would be difficult to exploit people whose needs are met. Why pass hundreds of laws when you can pass 1 that solves all the problem?

coconut08 5y ago
basic income definitely doesn't mean they can deregulate everything else. it greatly lessens the leverage these businesses have over workers but the leverage doesn't go away entirely. also basic income doesn't solve every problem.
andrei_says_ 5y ago
$2000 barely covers rent ( 1 br LA/SF). We’d also need rent control legislation to prevent rents from rising to absorb the UBI. Apart from that I agree - UBI is the simplest, cheapest way to lift the population out of poverty. The outcomes are fantastic - I recommend Rutger Bregman’s book on it.
- qiskit 5y ago
  > $2000 barely covers rent ( 1 br LA/SF). The market will develop housing for basic income people or you could always move to lower cost areas. > We’d also need rent control legislation to prevent rents from rising to absorb the UBI. Nope. If people are given basic income, the market will develop housing/services to cater to them.
  - ac29 5y ago
    "The market" has shown itself to be woefully inadequate at developing housing for those on the lower part of the income scale. I'm not sure why that would change under a basic income scenario.
  - Rebelgecko 5y ago
    The market hasn't developed housing for people on the current minimum wage, so I have my doubts that it would be any different with UBI

exabrial 5y ago

I really hope this passes, just so we can see how stupid defining these things in legislature. This should be decided by employers, not politicians. If employers have too much power then you have a monopoly problem and you should do something about it, not rake small businesses over the coals. I would love a 4 day work week, but only if it meant my job is secure. This is the worst way to go about it.

abeppu 5y ago

As with the bill that Rep Takano introduced in Congress, I feel like the media are not discussing this in at all a reasonable way. It is _not_ a bill to shorten the workweek. It's a bill to change the line at which employers pay overtime ... to workers who would get overtime. In California, for employers of the size mentioned here, workers become exempt at around ~$62k/yr. The BLS has stats for California which annoyingly give the median hourly wage, and the average annual comp (~$65.5k), but not the median annual comp. But certainly large fraction of workers are above the 'exempt' line, possibly more than half. Add to that a lot of workers are: - working for employers smaller than 500 staff in CA - some form of contractor - working multiple jobs (perhaps less now than a few years ago) What's the proportion of workers who would be impacted by this? And how many workers are not yet exempt, but are close enough to the exempt line that employers will be better off giving them a raise to an exempt salary and then demanding more hours per week? https://www.shouselaw.com/ca/labor/wage-and-hour/salary-laws/ https://www.shouselaw.com/ca/labor/wage-and-hour/salary-laws... https://www.bls.gov/oes/2020/may/oes_ca.htm#00-0000 https://www.bls.gov/oes/2020/may/oes_ca.htm#00-0000

dmode 5y ago

All this discussion is moot, since this bill not pass.

mrlonglong 5y ago

Oh, nice. California, here I come!

rdtwo 5y ago

Why don’t they start at 40 for everyone. That would be a great start Shes create another 20-30% more job openings

peapicker 5y ago

Govt. mandates 32 hr workweeks. Employers drop pay 20%. Not shocked.

skd23423 5y ago

Thought provoking essay by Bertrand Russell on idleness. https://harpers.org/archive/1932/10/in-praise-of-idleness/ https://harpers.org/archive/1932/10/in-praise-of-idleness/