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Great video but I think what this really highlighted for me is how almost comically complicated ICE engines are to put together.

by jah242 4y ago

csours 4y ago
Yes, but that happens in a different factory, similar to how batteries are not made on the same assembly line as a vehicle.
SEJeff 4y ago
And that’s why they break more often compared to an EV.
- rootusrootus 4y ago
  In theory. Has that actually played out in reality yet? Teslas aren't exactly the pinnacle of reliability, and other EVs are produced in low enough volumes that it may be difficult to draw real comparisons yet. Also, most of the parts of a car that wear out are shared between EV and ICE. Modern ICE drivetrains rarely break and routinely last the lifetime of the car.
  - SEJeff 4y ago
    I mean there are very detailed overviews of Model S taxis with 400k miles on them. There are many many Model 3s with 150-200k miles on them. Anecdotally, teslas seem to last a very long time. Things that break on ICE vehicles commonly EVs don’t have: * fanbelts * flywheels * alternators * starters * spark plugs * transmissions * etc In practice, Teslas break most when other drivers hit them.
    - rootusrootus 4y ago
      There are countless examples of ICE cars going hundreds of thousands of miles, too. > In practice, Teslas break most when other drivers hit them. Have you been to a service center? They're packed, especially when compared to Tesla's market penetration. And none of the cars I saw there were wrecked. Just broken. Tesla cars will most likely last about the same length of time as a current ICE vehicle, because what mostly kills vehicles is body rot. I'm even open to the argument that Teslas will have lower average lifespan, to be honest, due to the rate of change in the EV marketplace.
      - SEJeff 4y ago
        I’ve owned a Tesla model 3 since 2018, and I’ve been to service centers in two states. The recommended Tesla scheduled maintenance is every two years. The drive trains are actually engineered to last “approximately a million miles” per Musk. Even the 500,000 mile Teslas owned by taxi services have only had battery replacements, never drive train replacements, so this isn’t a lie. The battery research team includes one of the principal inventors of the lithium ion battery and he’s patented what others are calling a million mile battery. No, I don’t think Toyota drive trains are designed with quite the same longevity, though Toyotas are excellent. I had a Scion tC for years. Service centers are packed because there aren’t enough of them. If you look at the ratio of service centers to teslas on the road you’ll see the problem rather starkly… there aren’t enough of them. Tesla supplants this problem by heavily leaning on mobile service, which is awesome, but fundamentally, the service org has scaled at maybe 20-30% the speed of the manufacturing org.
    - tjr225 4y ago
      https://www.wilsonvilletoyota.com/blog/news/we-found-some-of-the-highest-mileage-toyotas/ https://www.wilsonvilletoyota.com/blog/news/we-found-some-of... I’ve personally owned 3 Toyotas with over 150k miles on them with very little maintenance. One of them was from 1994. One(my wife’s current car) has almost 200k on it.
      - SEJeff 4y ago
        Here are multiple teslas with 400k+ miles on them. Do you have a Toyota with higher than 300k miles on it? If not, why? https://www.thedrive.com/tech/43592/heres-how-a-tesla-model-s-holds-up-after-424000-miles https://www.thedrive.com/tech/43592/heres-how-a-tesla-model-... The tech in the Model 3s tends to be significantly better than these old model s cars mind you and they still hold up to 400,000+ miles. I bet you’d get an engine rebuild or two and maybe a new transmission or two after 400k miles on a gas car as well.
        mellinoe 4y ago
        The existence of individual vehicles with very high mileage doesn't feel like a good signal for overall reliability or maintenance req's over a lifespan. I did some brief searches and it seems there's a lot of "record-holding" gas vehicles with several million miles on them, some even claiming to be using original engines. Again though, I'm not sure this is a good representation of how reliable the vehicles are in aggregate.
        tjr225 4y ago
        There is no counterexample that escapes this signal for a Tesla, though, and that is what I'm arguing against.
        manquer 4y ago
        Median mileage has more relevance than any single machine , that entirely depends on how well the owner maintains it and a bit of luck. Gasoline car engines are more complex while that can in theory mean lesser reliability, we should also consider that they been around a lot longer , we have had a lot of time to develop manufacturing process and mature them . Battery vehicles are very very fast evolving, also Tesla is not exactly known for well manufactured vehicles Finally also the availability of know how and feasibility to fix a motor is lot harder than gasoline engines , there maybe a tendency to replace the motor than fix it because cheaper or easier for Tesla like how phones do it.
    - avs733 4y ago
      Do you have any actual evidence for this claim?
      - SEJeff 4y ago
        If you spent literally 20 seconds googling you’d find plenty but here are a few: https://evannex.com/blogs/news/7-myths-busted-after-200-000-in-my-tesla https://evannex.com/blogs/news/7-myths-busted-after-200-000-... https://enginepatrol.com/how-long-tesla-model-s-last/ https://enginepatrol.com/how-long-tesla-model-s-last/ https://electrek.co/2020/05/11/tesla-model-x-extreme-mileage-repair-maintenance/ https://electrek.co/2020/05/11/tesla-model-x-extreme-mileage... Note: Electrek is a Tesla fanboi blog that masquerades as news, but the facts are the facts https://www.thedrive.com/tech/43592/heres-how-a-tesla-model-s-holds-up-after-424000-miles https://www.thedrive.com/tech/43592/heres-how-a-tesla-model-... Multiple references to teslas with 400,000+ miles https://www.carscoops.com/2020/08/what-are-the-maintenance-costs-for-a-tesla-model-s-over-300000-miles/ https://www.carscoops.com/2020/08/what-are-the-maintenance-c... Etc.
    - yobbo 4y ago
      > fanbelts Belts are maintenance parts, and are extremely unlikely to break if changed on schedule. > flywheels You would need a shaped charge warhead to break a flywheel. > alternators and starters Electric motors and servos exist in electric cars as well, to drive fans, pumps, brake servos, and so on. > spark plugs It is extremely rare for spark plugs on fuel injected engines to break, but they degrade and are cheap and easy to replace. Much easier than brake pads or tires. > transmissions Very rarely break, but the transmissions in electric cars share the same basic components. > In practice, Teslas break most when other drivers hit them. If this was true, it would mean teslas are babied and only used sparingly in forgiving environments. But there are still too few old teslas around to produce meaningful statistics about drive train/chassi failure modes, which usually happen much later in the cars lives. The oldest ones are essentially babied "boutique" individuals. Maintenance changes on cars are: tires, brake pads, fluids (oil, cooling, hydraulics), and some belts, shock absorbers and suspension parts. It is true that electric cars don't need oil changes.
      - SEJeff 4y ago
        Most of those internal combustion engine maintenance parts simply do not exist one electric vehicles. You still need maintenance to fix / replace them, and that does not exist for most of those. The transmission on say a Tesla is a single speed and significantly simpler as a result. As an example, the tesla model 3 warranty is 4 yr/50,000 mi basic, 8 yr/100,000 mi powertrain. By comparison, the BMW M4 warranty is 4 yr/50,000 mi basic, 4 yr/50,000 mi powertrain. Now the powertrain warranty being twice that of BMWs tells me they expect it to last at least that long. Perhaps I'm misreading something here? The oldest teslas with the most miles are primarily taxis. I'm not sure I'd call a taxicab a "babied" vehicle.
    - winrid 4y ago
      You can replace pretty much everything in the engine bay of a modern mid-level car for 4-6k. That's everything, which most people don't do. Say that's required every 200k miles on average. Lot better than a 30k battery replacement. But, the battery costs will continue to drop, so this will be interesting to see.
      - SEJeff 4y ago
        30k for a battery replacement? It’s 16k parts and labor to replace the battery in my model 3, and as you say, the cost will go down over time.
        winrid 4y ago
        Wow really? That's not bad. I read recently the "hydraulic press" guy blew his up because it was ~30k.
- imtringued 4y ago
  I've had an ICE car where the electronics broke down way before anything in the drive train. What's particularly annoying is that most auto shops, especially the dealership have no idea how to fix the part in question. They just replace the entire thing and everything that is attached to it for 2000€ and charge labor on top when replacing just the specific component should cost 1000€ or less including labor. What's especially egregious is that the auto shop needs licensed diagnostics tools from the car manufacturer for something as simple as a part swap. I had to go to 4 different places before I found one that wasn't trying to screw me over.

Great video but I think what this really highlighted for me is how almost comically complicated ICE engines are to put together.

by jah242 4y ago

Great video but I think what this really highlighted for me is how almost comically complicated ICE engines are to put together.

csours 4y ago

Yes, but that happens in a different factory, similar to how batteries are not made on the same assembly line as a vehicle.

SEJeff 4y ago

And that’s why they break more often compared to an EV.

rootusrootus 4y ago
In theory. Has that actually played out in reality yet? Teslas aren't exactly the pinnacle of reliability, and other EVs are produced in low enough volumes that it may be difficult to draw real comparisons yet. Also, most of the parts of a car that wear out are shared between EV and ICE. Modern ICE drivetrains rarely break and routinely last the lifetime of the car.
- SEJeff 4y ago
  I mean there are very detailed overviews of Model S taxis with 400k miles on them. There are many many Model 3s with 150-200k miles on them. Anecdotally, teslas seem to last a very long time. Things that break on ICE vehicles commonly EVs don’t have: * fanbelts * flywheels * alternators * starters * spark plugs * transmissions * etc In practice, Teslas break most when other drivers hit them.
  - rootusrootus 4y ago
    There are countless examples of ICE cars going hundreds of thousands of miles, too. > In practice, Teslas break most when other drivers hit them. Have you been to a service center? They're packed, especially when compared to Tesla's market penetration. And none of the cars I saw there were wrecked. Just broken. Tesla cars will most likely last about the same length of time as a current ICE vehicle, because what mostly kills vehicles is body rot. I'm even open to the argument that Teslas will have lower average lifespan, to be honest, due to the rate of change in the EV marketplace.
    - SEJeff 4y ago
      I’ve owned a Tesla model 3 since 2018, and I’ve been to service centers in two states. The recommended Tesla scheduled maintenance is every two years. The drive trains are actually engineered to last “approximately a million miles” per Musk. Even the 500,000 mile Teslas owned by taxi services have only had battery replacements, never drive train replacements, so this isn’t a lie. The battery research team includes one of the principal inventors of the lithium ion battery and he’s patented what others are calling a million mile battery. No, I don’t think Toyota drive trains are designed with quite the same longevity, though Toyotas are excellent. I had a Scion tC for years. Service centers are packed because there aren’t enough of them. If you look at the ratio of service centers to teslas on the road you’ll see the problem rather starkly… there aren’t enough of them. Tesla supplants this problem by heavily leaning on mobile service, which is awesome, but fundamentally, the service org has scaled at maybe 20-30% the speed of the manufacturing org.
  - tjr225 4y ago
    https://www.wilsonvilletoyota.com/blog/news/we-found-some-of-the-highest-mileage-toyotas/ https://www.wilsonvilletoyota.com/blog/news/we-found-some-of... I’ve personally owned 3 Toyotas with over 150k miles on them with very little maintenance. One of them was from 1994. One(my wife’s current car) has almost 200k on it.
    - SEJeff 4y ago
      Here are multiple teslas with 400k+ miles on them. Do you have a Toyota with higher than 300k miles on it? If not, why? https://www.thedrive.com/tech/43592/heres-how-a-tesla-model-s-holds-up-after-424000-miles https://www.thedrive.com/tech/43592/heres-how-a-tesla-model-... The tech in the Model 3s tends to be significantly better than these old model s cars mind you and they still hold up to 400,000+ miles. I bet you’d get an engine rebuild or two and maybe a new transmission or two after 400k miles on a gas car as well.
      - mellinoe 4y ago
        The existence of individual vehicles with very high mileage doesn't feel like a good signal for overall reliability or maintenance req's over a lifespan. I did some brief searches and it seems there's a lot of "record-holding" gas vehicles with several million miles on them, some even claiming to be using original engines. Again though, I'm not sure this is a good representation of how reliable the vehicles are in aggregate.
        tjr225 4y ago
        There is no counterexample that escapes this signal for a Tesla, though, and that is what I'm arguing against.
      - manquer 4y ago
        Median mileage has more relevance than any single machine , that entirely depends on how well the owner maintains it and a bit of luck. Gasoline car engines are more complex while that can in theory mean lesser reliability, we should also consider that they been around a lot longer , we have had a lot of time to develop manufacturing process and mature them . Battery vehicles are very very fast evolving, also Tesla is not exactly known for well manufactured vehicles Finally also the availability of know how and feasibility to fix a motor is lot harder than gasoline engines , there maybe a tendency to replace the motor than fix it because cheaper or easier for Tesla like how phones do it.
  - avs733 4y ago
    Do you have any actual evidence for this claim?
    - SEJeff 4y ago
      If you spent literally 20 seconds googling you’d find plenty but here are a few: https://evannex.com/blogs/news/7-myths-busted-after-200-000-in-my-tesla https://evannex.com/blogs/news/7-myths-busted-after-200-000-... https://enginepatrol.com/how-long-tesla-model-s-last/ https://enginepatrol.com/how-long-tesla-model-s-last/ https://electrek.co/2020/05/11/tesla-model-x-extreme-mileage-repair-maintenance/ https://electrek.co/2020/05/11/tesla-model-x-extreme-mileage... Note: Electrek is a Tesla fanboi blog that masquerades as news, but the facts are the facts https://www.thedrive.com/tech/43592/heres-how-a-tesla-model-s-holds-up-after-424000-miles https://www.thedrive.com/tech/43592/heres-how-a-tesla-model-... Multiple references to teslas with 400,000+ miles https://www.carscoops.com/2020/08/what-are-the-maintenance-costs-for-a-tesla-model-s-over-300000-miles/ https://www.carscoops.com/2020/08/what-are-the-maintenance-c... Etc.
  - yobbo 4y ago
    > fanbelts Belts are maintenance parts, and are extremely unlikely to break if changed on schedule. > flywheels You would need a shaped charge warhead to break a flywheel. > alternators and starters Electric motors and servos exist in electric cars as well, to drive fans, pumps, brake servos, and so on. > spark plugs It is extremely rare for spark plugs on fuel injected engines to break, but they degrade and are cheap and easy to replace. Much easier than brake pads or tires. > transmissions Very rarely break, but the transmissions in electric cars share the same basic components. > In practice, Teslas break most when other drivers hit them. If this was true, it would mean teslas are babied and only used sparingly in forgiving environments. But there are still too few old teslas around to produce meaningful statistics about drive train/chassi failure modes, which usually happen much later in the cars lives. The oldest ones are essentially babied "boutique" individuals. Maintenance changes on cars are: tires, brake pads, fluids (oil, cooling, hydraulics), and some belts, shock absorbers and suspension parts. It is true that electric cars don't need oil changes.
    - SEJeff 4y ago
      Most of those internal combustion engine maintenance parts simply do not exist one electric vehicles. You still need maintenance to fix / replace them, and that does not exist for most of those. The transmission on say a Tesla is a single speed and significantly simpler as a result. As an example, the tesla model 3 warranty is 4 yr/50,000 mi basic, 8 yr/100,000 mi powertrain. By comparison, the BMW M4 warranty is 4 yr/50,000 mi basic, 4 yr/50,000 mi powertrain. Now the powertrain warranty being twice that of BMWs tells me they expect it to last at least that long. Perhaps I'm misreading something here? The oldest teslas with the most miles are primarily taxis. I'm not sure I'd call a taxicab a "babied" vehicle.
  - winrid 4y ago
    You can replace pretty much everything in the engine bay of a modern mid-level car for 4-6k. That's everything, which most people don't do. Say that's required every 200k miles on average. Lot better than a 30k battery replacement. But, the battery costs will continue to drop, so this will be interesting to see.
    - SEJeff 4y ago
      30k for a battery replacement? It’s 16k parts and labor to replace the battery in my model 3, and as you say, the cost will go down over time.
      - winrid 4y ago
        Wow really? That's not bad. I read recently the "hydraulic press" guy blew his up because it was ~30k.
imtringued 4y ago
I've had an ICE car where the electronics broke down way before anything in the drive train. What's particularly annoying is that most auto shops, especially the dealership have no idea how to fix the part in question. They just replace the entire thing and everything that is attached to it for 2000€ and charge labor on top when replacing just the specific component should cost 1000€ or less including labor. What's especially egregious is that the auto shop needs licensed diagnostics tools from the car manufacturer for something as simple as a part swap. I had to go to 4 different places before I found one that wasn't trying to screw me over.