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Really happy to see this on the front page! One thing to keep in mind if you're interested in joining: the Digital Corps is for early career technologists, so

• dmead 5y ago
  Sadly, I had to turn down an offer from usds a few years ago. Seemed like really great people to work with :(
• xxpor 5y ago
  Until the GS salary cap is something that doesn't look like a bad offer from a decade ago, it'll be extremely hard to swallow the pay cut of working for the feds. I get the "public service" discount, but it'd have to be something like 30%, not 70%.
  • jvanderbot 5y ago
    Have you seen NASA salaries? Gov spending on salary and perks is really hard for congress to swallow (except for their own salaries). It just hits wrong during election season.
    • dweekly 5y ago
      Congressional members (House and Senate) earn $174k/year, which is rather less than leadership of comparable scope is paid in private industry. Of course, having powerful people who control trillions of spending be not be very well paid themselves above the table has...myriad exciting ways to go wrong. As a taxpayer I'd rather government leadership paid extremely well and heavily fund GSA audits to ensure strong oversight (and jail time) for those that abuse the position. Fun fact: GSA saves taxpayers $10 for every $1 spent.
      • omginternets 5y ago
        You forgot to factor in all the benefits and "perks", not the least of which is insider trading.
        • ethbr0 5y ago
          Insider trading is probably the least perk, if one wanted to abuse their government authority and access. There are myriad ways to go much bigger with corruption.
          • throwaway0a5e 5y ago
            Insider trading is a perfectly legal perk to them. Corruption isn't.
        • wpasc 5y ago
          I'd bet the insider trading pales greatly in comparison to hiring ex-congresspeople for their access and contact sheet
      • chrisseaton 5y ago
        Are member of congress leaders? Which people do they lead? They have teams of assistants but they're not huge teams. They seem more like individual contributors.
    • OrvalWintermute 5y ago
      NASA federal salaries are on the higher end of the GS scale because we tend to recruit better talent, and some of our key locations are in cost high areas, near Washington DC, or Silicon Valley. Likewise with our contractors & consultants. However, we've been losing lots of talent recently to fortune 500 companies that poach our federal talent, and our contractor talent. 200% increases in compensation are not unusual for those leaving NASA federal, or contracting gigs.
      • the_only_law 5y ago
        Yeah federal pay is rough and probably the primary reason I avoid government jobs, at least for the time being. I don’t do anything remotely exciting, difficult or demanding for a company you’ve never heard of, yet I make as much as one of the higher paid NASA positions I’ve seen requiring extremely niche experience you will only get from and full of places. Probably more when you consider CoL and such. Similarly, I saw a position with everyone’s favorite three letter agency. The job looked really cool, and required some modestly niche skillsets and experience in security, reverse engineering, exploit development. Only issue: the starting salary was very rough, particularly for the DC area. The other thing is just the bureaucratic nature of the pay scales. I’ve seen jobs asking for a PhD or significantly more in YoE that probably requires because that’s what the GS requirements were. I’m not even sure if the usual “don’t interpret job requirements literally” is of any value. After all we’re talking about government agencies. I’d also hope agencies have become to relax degree requirements on certain types of positions but I doubt it. I was told for years, the federal government probably wouldn’t hire me without one. All that being said, I’d probably be willing to hop on over if the work was really interesting and the pay wasn’t complete atrocious.
      • jakeinspace 5y ago
        My project lead when I was a NASA contractor took a remote offer somewhere in the ~$350k range, which I think must've been at least a 200% raise, if not more. I don't believe he would have left if the agency were able to at least meet him halfway, but that's obviously not possible right now. NASA would save money in the long run by paying market rate imo, it's such a loss of talent and experience when any random startup with a solid funding round can poach the cream of the crop for a few hundred grand.
    • HWR_14 5y ago
      > Gov spending on salary and perks is really hard for congress to swallow (except for their own salaries). It's just the opposite. With a few rare exceptions, a federal employee cannot make more than a congressional salary. And since they make just over 174k year, that's the highest a GS-15 can make (after the mandated raises). Hence, GS-15s start at 172.6k.
  • tristor 5y ago
    I didn't think it could be that bad, and then I went looking. Apparently to get a pay level that aligns with typical base salary in tech for senior level IC positions, you'd have to be an agency director of a large agency or in the Cabinet. And that doesn't even take into account losing RSUs and smaller bonus payouts. This actually goes a long way in my mind of explaining why the US government does so much contracting of people for work as well. It's probably not possible in the current legal framework to pay high quality tech workers a fair compensation for the market, but they could hire a firm as contractors for a project and that firm could pay fair compensation. I just wish more firms were honest rather than milking the government.
    • lotsofpulp 5y ago
      The current system also incentivize quid pro quo via revolving door for high level government employees. You accept under market pay with the government, but expect to be repaid for favors to the governed entities by taking a job with them afterwards. Or selling your services to them. Or getting a niece or nephew hired. Etc.
    • killjoywashere 5y ago
      This is one of the great accomplishments of the "small government" efforts in politics: all the money leaves the system. Imagine a business that losses all it's money, every year, by design.
      • teaearlgraycold 5y ago
        Not weighing in on small/big gov. But a government isn’t a business.
      • dylan604 5y ago
        So, Uber? Or really any tech startup with aggressvie growth only surviving because of VC investment.
    • giaour 5y ago
      There are a few ways to get an IC role that pays more than the GS salary cap, but they are fairly rare. Some jobs have an "ST" level that is classified above GS for senior individual contributors in scientific or technical roles, and some agencies (like the CFPB) have their own pay scales that go beyond what the GS schedule allows. I only worked with one computer scientist in an ST role during my two years at USDS. He was an ACM Fellow and had a PhD from MIT, so it's not something anyone should expect to get just because they had "senior" in their title at a FAANG. Contractors don't have the same statutory caps on how much an individual role can pay, but salaries are part of contract bids, and a bid can be rejected if an individual salary is too high.
  • brimble 5y ago
    As someone not in FAANG, I was super-interested in their remote option, since it'd have been much more like that 30% cut (for me) than a 70% cut—until I saw the weird "term of service" limitation. Half the point of taking a government job is the retirement, and stable health benefits et c. over the long haul! Taking that out of the equation ruins the value prop.
    • lastofthemojito 5y ago
      Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but I'm seeing this as an analog to the Peace Corps or AmeriCorps (maybe the name is swaying me there?). Something specifically for people right at the beginning of their career to have an opportunity to perhaps do something meaningful. And once they have that experience on their resume, it'll help them do the next thing.
      • brimble 5y ago
        The program I looked at back then read like it was targeting established professionals.
      • giaour 5y ago
        The US Digital Corps (a new program) is meant to be for people at the beginning of their careers. GP was referring to the US Digital Service, which is for mid- and senior-level tech folks.
        • brimble 5y ago
          Yes, absolutely correct and I should have been clearer about this, this was the (at this point) long-running USDS program, not this new thing.
    • giaour 5y ago
      Plenty of people move from USDS to permanent civil service roles, but they do need to plan for it and apply. Your time in USDS counts towards government retirement benefits, but you can't stay in that particular position for longer than 4 years.
  • CobaltFire 5y ago
    Unfortunately the GS salary bands are pretty below market for everything and the quality of people that is resulting in shows. I recently got offered a GS-11 (with promotion to GS-12 after a year) position and it's just not worth it. This wasn't for tech either; this was for a rather odd skill set.
    • giantg2 5y ago
      "This wasn't for tech either; this was for a rather odd skill set." Well this sounds like a story.
      • CobaltFire 5y ago
        Security Manager. I deal in Personal, Physical, Communication, and IT Security as an Active Duty member, and since I'm retiring they wanted me to shift to a Personal/Physical SecMan that handles thousands of clearances and multiple TS assets spread around a couple sites. Odd, but not that exciting. :)
        • giantg2 5y ago
          So what I'm hearing is that you're Sam Fisher and this is your cover story.
    • pclmulqdq 5y ago
      I was offered a GS-15 a while ago and even that was a lot lower than a starting FAANG salary for a new grad. I would happily work for the USDS or a TLA for a 20% pay cut, but the process of getting anywhere near that is a nightmare. It seems like the path is generally to work your way to GS-12 or higher, then quit and become a contractor for the same group.
      • CobaltFire 5y ago
        Essentially yes. Lockheed already has jobs posted for higher pay than was on offer for that skillset and has asked me if I'd be interested in talking to them. Since that skill is odd but required by every single contractor that does classified work there's a whole lot of opportunity out there I wasn't aware of until recently. The lack of quality people doing it in the GS ranks now makes a whole lot more sense to me. Prior to me understanding that it was just an annoyance.
  • aikiplayer 5y ago
    It's definitely steep and getting steeper by the month. The other downside, that's actually more significant than the base salary difference, is the lack of upside from stock, etc. (which a sibling also commented on). However, there are a couple of significant things that are often overlooked. There's a strong mission that really speaks to some people. Additionally, there's a lot of structure applied which helps to enforce a work/life balance. Some people really want to dive in and work a lot of hours (which is generally allowed) but others (like me) struggle to turn work off w/o that structure.
  • giantg2 5y ago
    Your comment seems out of touch with reality for most people. The US median dev salary is $110k and it looks like you can hit that as a GS-12 in most locations.
    • chrisseaton 5y ago
      > The US median dev salary is $110k I don’t doubt you’ve looked that up and it’s true if you say it is, but that number completely baffles me. How are so many devs so poorly paid?
      • tick_tock_tick 5y ago
        There is a lot of country between the two coasts. Hell most of the southern coast is still quite cheap.
      • omginternets 5y ago
        I suspect it's because "dev" is a fairly broad category that encompasses everything from "Wordpress CSS-twiddler" to "Big Tech Hotshot".
      • mciancia 5y ago
        I wouldn't be surprised if those statistics are not really worth anything. Like, it's possible they don't take under account people who are contracting, RSUs/options, yearly bonuses and whatever alse companies are offering now. Median base salary at 110k might be possible then ;)
      • Goronmon 5y ago
        How are so many devs so poorly paid? Maybe you are just out of touch with what your average software developer is paid?
      • verisimilidude 5y ago
        You may be living in a bubble. That’s a normal (and still very good) salary for devs working in quieter metro areas. I left the Bay Area five years ago. My salary is now $100k, a substantial pay cut from my SF years. But quality of life is soooooo much better here, in so many ways. It’s worth the drop in pay.
  • jacobian 5y ago
    If you're a software developer, and your goal is to maximize income, then yeah, don't work for the federal government. If your goal is to do meaningful work that has a tangible positive impact on average people's lives, while being paid a fair living wage, then these jobs are unbeatable.
    • stirfish 5y ago
      What are some government software projects that have a tangible positive impact on average people's lives?
      • prepend 5y ago
        Healthcare.gov is the project that kicked off USDS (because the site was so horrible and the contractors charged billions). That site impacts millions of lives. There’s lots of important government projects. I actually think the rate of BS/meaningful may be higher in government than private given the number of cow clicker/BS-type projects.
      • xxpor 5y ago
        The SSA has to be able to get checks out to everyone every month. The IRS has to process tax returns and get out refunds. The USGS has to be able to detect earthquakes. The NWS has to be able to deliver critical weather data. I could go on and on.
    • time_to_smile 5y ago
      I did a stint in the government working for a team that eventually had a lot people go over to 18F. I joined on hoping to see exactly what you describe, willing to take a pay cut for meaningful work. My experience was very different than yours has been. My impression was that it was largely bureaucrats looking to further their own position in the massive bureaucracy. It was virtually impossible to do any "meaningful work". The handful of people passionate about doing good for the world were constantly blocked by other bureaucrats who were only interested in maintaining (or expanding) their tiny island of power they had accrued. I vividly recall needing data from another agency to help solve a problem we were working on and being told that it would be virtually impossible to get any cooperation because it would make them look bad if we succeeded using their data. My entire time as a Federal employee was filled with similar such moments. All of the work I did, which ended up proving some seriously privacy vulnerabilities in another project, was dismissed because people didn't want to hear it. The experience forever changed my view on government. The plus side is I did meet some fantastic, although terminally frustrated, people while I was there. It is a great place to meet people who have similar ambitions. For someone looking for meaningful work I would advise staying far away from the federal government.
  • omginternets 5y ago
    What's the salary cap?
    • giaour 5y ago
      $176,300 (per https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/pay-leave/salaries-wages/salary-tables/pdf/2022/DCB.pdf https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/pay-leave/salaries...)
      • l33t2328 5y ago
        And people consider that a bad offer a decade ago? I consider that a dream offer today.
        • omginternets 5y ago
          I think this depends a great deal on industry and seniority. What kind of programming do you do and how long have you been doing it?
  • tdhz77 5y ago
    Former Fed for 10 years. Loved working for the Federal Government. I made 100k+ as a software engineer. I left Federal Service in February 22 because the private sector doubled my salary. My work is much easier in the private sector and I work a lot less. I’m getting paid double. I have a team now I can rely on. I didn’t have this in Gov. Many Gov IT positions will go unfilled for months. I had one organization offer me 25k, fully remote to work there and I declined. Why? The amount of work is insane for a individual developer. This idea that we shouldn’t pay people because they work in Government is insane. Peoples mistrust of government, but really it’s misguided.
    • tehwebguy 5y ago
      > I had one organization offer me 25k, fully remote to work there Per year? That is $12.50 / hr
      • the_only_law 5y ago
        I worked for state government, in a very red state (read, does not like to spend on government) for my first “real” job at around $37k, circa 5-6 years ago.
        • toomanyrichies 5y ago
          This gets to the heart of a contradiction in red state philosophy which is actually quite hard to solve, at least in my mind. On the one hand, it's understandable if someone doesn't trust the government to spend their money wisely, and if they use that as a justification for voting for smaller government budgets. I get that part completely. Governments have little if any internal motivation to spend your money wisely. If anything, they have a vested interest in spending 100% of their budgets, regardless of whether it's spent wisely, so that their budgets don't decrease in the following fiscal year. At the same time, "if you pay peanuts, you get monkeys". If red states don't pay competitive salaries in competitive fields, their citizens shouldn't be surprised if they end up scraping the bottom of the barrel to source their public servants. The service they experience while interfacing with this dreck then further reduces their faith in government, and the whole thing becomes a vicious circle. Again, this is a hard problem to solve. I don't know what the answer is, but it seems to be rooted in a mis-alignment of incentives in government spending.
  • prepend 5y ago
    The max GS15 salary is like $175k and there’s lots of government benefits. Max GS14 is $150. Max GS13 is $125. And there’s lots of benefits (23 paid days off, 13 sick every year), pension, etc etc. This won’t compete with FAANG or with HCO, but in most areas of the country (or full remote) this is fine for a programmer’s pay. I hear the complaint that fed doesn’t pay for tech and I think that’s not true. The BLS has median programmer pay $90k in 2020 [0] so government pay is certainly competitive. This is median too, while the lowest possible GS13 pay is $100k. [0] https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/mobile/computer-programmers.htm https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/...
    • glowingly 5y ago
      From my experience, GS14 and above roles are allocated in limited numbers to each program/branch/division. Of course, many other companies do this to some degree, and one obviously can rotate in the government. However, not every program will have GS14, nevermind GS15 opportunities. GS is also (like all companies, etc, etc) adjusted per locality, so not every GS13 step 4 will be the same.
      • prepend 5y ago
        From my experience, ICs in technical fields like programming, data science, and cyber get hired in as Gs13-15 in non-supervisory roles. Yes, GS is adjusted for locality and it’s up and down. But $100k is the minimum for GS-13, step 1 in most localities and is higher in high cost of living areas like DC, NY, etc. But if you want a programmer job in government it’s not a big pay cut unless you’re a superstar working for Google or something. If it’s a decision of random Fortune 500 or government, government will usually pay more, AND have more benefits and stability.
        • glowingly 5y ago
          I am in a HCOL area on the locality chart :/ We get hired in at $70k and this seems rather common among my peers + contractors, so I don't exactly know how someone is getting $100k at the door. People who have been here ~5+ years are GS13 or equivalent. However, most of us aren't and I don't see any upward trends, as our GS14/+ slots are being slowly retired/transferred away. There seems to be a large age gap between the newer engineers and the older ones. Sounds silly, I know. I am wondering if most of us are going to wander off then come back for retirement? Or is the program doomed in the long run? Thanks. I think I just needed to see it from someone outside of my program.
  • gnicholas 5y ago
    Two things to keep in mind: the federal government offers a very good pension, which most private employers do not. Also, if you have student loans and work for qualifying employers (govt and/or nonprofit IIRC), you can have some of your loans discharged after a period of time. But both of these perks require you to work for 10 or 20 years, in one branch or another.
    • NtGuy25 5y ago
      Government pension is actually very bad. You pay 4 % of your salary per year, and get 1 % * years worked * avg(3 top highest salaries). You get far more money if you put that 4 % into a 401k or other investment vehicle. Also, with loans being discharged, you have to have made a ton of payments, to the point that most will pay off their loans before they're eligible in a stem position.
      • deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
      • nmeagent 5y ago
        You only pay 4.4% of your salary if hired after 2014 (I only pay 0.8%). If you retire with 20+ years of service at 62 or later, you get 1.1% per year of your high-three salary. That amount is adjusted by cost-of-living increases as well, though of course that may not keep up with inflation. Also keep in mind that TSP contributions are matched up to 5% of your salary. Consider the pension in the context of also maxing out contributions to TSP (which has the same yearly contributions cap as a 401k). A fair comparison should include the whole package.
        • deleted 5y ago
          [deleted]
  • kache_ 5y ago
    this a million times. I interviewed for the spooks, and the money they were offering was an absolute pittance compared to what I could be making just pay us, I'd be happy to come work. I know they have the money too, I pay double their offering salary in the taxes I paid in 2021
  • AtlasBarfed 5y ago
    Is it illegal to have "other compensation" like a second job or consulting gig while you have a gov job?
  • bradleyankrom 5y ago
    Oh man, let me tell you about the “working in sports” discount…
• tonymet 5y ago
  What does 18F mean? Our name is short for the address of the GSA building where we’re headquartered in Washington, DC: 1800 F Street. For those curious about the inappropriate-sounding name
  • ericmay 5y ago
    When I saw that, the first thing that came to mind was that it's the military occupation specialty (MOS) for US Army special forces (18x). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Army_Special_Forces https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Army_Special_For...
  • wmeredith 5y ago
    Am I naive? How is "18F" inappropriate?
    • z3c0 5y ago
      Eighteen-year-old female
• notreallyserio 5y ago
  Do you still have to be straight-edge to get hired by the feds?
  • solarmist 5y ago
    Depends on what you mean. But generally I’d say no felonies, no drugs (convictions and/or test results) and no strong ties to foreign governments. But the details will vary a bit.
    • notreallyserio 5y ago
      No drugs, specifically cannabis. I've heard that admitting to using cannabis in the past gets you tossed, despite it being common, safe, and legal in much of the country.
      • the_jeremy 5y ago
        Past drug use does not disqualify you. Source: have friends who smoked pot and got security clearances.
        • solarmist 5y ago
          Lying about it (if caught) will absolutely get you disqualified though. But yeah use and conviction are very different.
      • tssva 5y ago
        In the late 80s to early 90s as I attended college and then spent a couple of years following the Dead, I smoked pot, ate mushrooms, dosed LSD, and snorted cocaine on a regular basis. I also sampled various other substances along the way. Several years later I applied for and received a Top Secret clearance. I fully admitted all prior drug use as part of the process. I was working for a government contractor at the time and was not a government employee. At the same time I had a couple of friends who worked for a 3 letter agency and had prior regularly smoked pot. They admitted their prior use during the hiring process. This again was during the late 90s when attitudes towards pot were more negative than they are today.