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Regardless of whatever good intent regulators have for "freedom" or whatever, I feel like these efforts will just result in predatory developers having more fre

Regardless of whatever good intent regulators have for "freedom" or whatever, I feel like these efforts will just result in predatory developers having more freedom to prey on their users, and ultimately a worse experience for end users. These developers aren't righteous actors; they're just businesses, like any other, looking to extract as much money from their users. Ideally governments, and not Apple, would be regulating away this predatory behaviour, but I don't view that as a realistic prospect. Governments have never been great at regulating away anti-consumer behaviour.

the_gipsy 5y ago
Apple is also a business and therefore preys on their customers behind a veil of protectionism.
- spideymans 5y ago
  I just want myself and consumers as a whole to be protected from predatory developers. Regarding the regulatory changes, I'd be happy with one of two things: A) Governments impose restrictions on third party developers that are largely similar to the consumer protection standards that Apple has imposed on developers, while opening up alternative payment platforms. B) Governments impose restrictions on Apple to prevent Apple from preying on their customers. However, governments are going down the path of removing whatever protections the App Store provided consumers, without replacing those protections with any other pro-consumer regulation. This is the absolute worst case scenario for me. We've seen time and time again how developers will prey on their users, particularly with subscriptions.
  - toyg 5y ago
    > governments are going down the path of removing whatever protections the App Store provided consumers, without replacing those protections As others pointed out, that's actually not true as far as the new EU regulation on the matter is concerned: it attempts to maintain principles that help users while removing monopolistic practices and abuses by gatekeepers. In any case, even if governments were to ban certain behaviours without mandating replacements, the responsibility for such outcome lies very plainly with the handful of giant platform vendors who strenuously refused to work with competition authorities in good faith - preferring instead to defend their monopolistic abuses to the last day - with Apple being the worst of the lot.
alimov 5y ago
I had a similar feeling. This isnt the people of x country suing Apple to allow external payment systems, this is businesses that make $1mil (I think) or more per year(?) via the AppStore… just business interests being paraded around as freedoms
- Daishiman 5y ago
  A million dollars vs a company with a market cap or $1 trillion is minuscule.
  - alimov 5y ago
    Sure one company that makes at max a million a year then it’s minuscule. What about considering that this is not the case and there is more than one such company and many that make well beyond that.
  - KennyBlanken 5y ago
    The dating app industry is worth $7BN, globally (dominated by Match Group, btw) and these cases are never just about the one particular company, country, or even segment of an industry...they're about getting a foot in the door to wedge things open.
cmdli 5y ago
Ultimately, this is about freedom for tech companies, not users. Users will have to use whatever the tech companies give them, and tech companies are always going to do things that benefit themselves the most. I wouldn’t be surprised if users are simply forced to use some external service that has a much worse user experience and ultimately the consumer suffers.
oh_sigh 5y ago
What kind of predatory behavior do you predict that would exist, but wouldn't get the app banned from the app store?
- spideymans 5y ago
  If software developers are free to distribute outside of controlled app stores, free from any external vetting, we'd see the exact same predatory behaviour we see in the broader software industry. Hard-to-cancel subscriptions and misleading free trial scams would be two big examples. Dating app publishers haven't made any secret of their predatory desire to make mobile subscription cancellations more difficult, to extract greater revenue from users, for example [0] However, the "attack surface" would be much bigger, given that consumers spend far more time on their smartphones than on PCs. 0: https://nypost.com/2019/11/06/tinder-owners-stock-tumbles-after-missing-revenue-forecasts/ https://nypost.com/2019/11/06/tinder-owners-stock-tumbles-af...
heavyset_go 5y ago
Apple already allows their customers to be victims of scams to the tune of millions of dollars a year[1]. Actual competition in this space means that more security-minded groups can offer users better solutions than the one that Apple forces down their throats. For example, F-Droid in particular is very good at protecting users. [1] https://www.theverge.com/2021/2/8/22272849/apple-app-store-scams-ios-fraud-reviews-ratings-flicktype https://www.theverge.com/2021/2/8/22272849/apple-app-store-s...
- KennyBlanken 5y ago
  I don't know if things have changed but I only used F-Droid as a way to get packages and update them. It's worthless for trying to find an app. The descriptions are terrible and often misleading ("Pubic transit schedule app!"...that turns out to only be for one specific scandanvian trolley system...) the search function is terrible and there's zero user review or rating system. F-Droid also has no e-commerce functionality. The vast majority of software on F-Droid is My First Android App garbage, usually doesn't follow any common best practices for UI/UX on Android, is extremely specific (like a door-opening app for a hackerspace in Germany) or all of the above. I don't see how you could possibly compare them with a straight face. The one or two times I've found an app on Apple's app store to not be up to snuff, getting a refund was completely painless and Apple is known for being pretty liberal about refunds, because I think both they and app developers realize that a smooth exit for an unhappy app customer is the best for everyone involved. The paid apps I've bought on iOS have been miles better than Android apps, too. I was shocked to discover that an excellent Solitare program I used on an original iPhone is still kicking around getting regular updates from its developer. It shows one ad, briefly, after a game win (I think it doesn't even show an ad after a game loss.) Most of the stuff I bought on Android? The dev abandoned it within a year or two, and then it broke not long after...
  - anonymousab 5y ago
    > The vast majority of software on F-Droid is My First Android App garbage, usually doesn't follow any common best practices for UI/UX on Android, is extremely specific And thank goodness for that. If I just want an app to strip EXIF data and crop+resize, the relevant F-Droid app will be that, and just that, and will simply have a button front and center to do the things, and not hide crap behind whatever fancy multiple-taps nested menu indistinguishable-from-background options are the latest Google-driven UX fad. And as a bonus, it'll usually be smaller and lacking the analytics and ads and nagging subscription features that infest so many comparative "useful" apps on the play store.
malermeister 5y ago
> Governments have never been great at regulating away anti-consumer behaviour. I think EU governments have actually been really good at that. The two year mandatory warranty for everything comes to mind, as do regulations that require business to be truthful about price in listings and not add a bunch of fees just before checkout (Airbnb is a lot less frustrating in the EU, for example). There's also the mandatory 14 day cooling period during which you are entitled to return anything bought online for a full refund and a whole bunch more: https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/consumer/consumer_laws/consumer_rights_in_eu.html https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/consumer/consumer_laws...

the_gipsy 5y ago

Apple is also a business and therefore preys on their customers behind a veil of protectionism.

spideymans 5y ago
I just want myself and consumers as a whole to be protected from predatory developers. Regarding the regulatory changes, I'd be happy with one of two things: A) Governments impose restrictions on third party developers that are largely similar to the consumer protection standards that Apple has imposed on developers, while opening up alternative payment platforms. B) Governments impose restrictions on Apple to prevent Apple from preying on their customers. However, governments are going down the path of removing whatever protections the App Store provided consumers, without replacing those protections with any other pro-consumer regulation. This is the absolute worst case scenario for me. We've seen time and time again how developers will prey on their users, particularly with subscriptions.
- toyg 5y ago
  > governments are going down the path of removing whatever protections the App Store provided consumers, without replacing those protections As others pointed out, that's actually not true as far as the new EU regulation on the matter is concerned: it attempts to maintain principles that help users while removing monopolistic practices and abuses by gatekeepers. In any case, even if governments were to ban certain behaviours without mandating replacements, the responsibility for such outcome lies very plainly with the handful of giant platform vendors who strenuously refused to work with competition authorities in good faith - preferring instead to defend their monopolistic abuses to the last day - with Apple being the worst of the lot.

alimov 5y ago

I had a similar feeling. This isnt the people of x country suing Apple to allow external payment systems, this is businesses that make $1mil (I think) or more per year(?) via the AppStore… just business interests being paraded around as freedoms

Daishiman 5y ago
A million dollars vs a company with a market cap or $1 trillion is minuscule.
- alimov 5y ago
  Sure one company that makes at max a million a year then it’s minuscule. What about considering that this is not the case and there is more than one such company and many that make well beyond that.
- KennyBlanken 5y ago
  The dating app industry is worth $7BN, globally (dominated by Match Group, btw) and these cases are never just about the one particular company, country, or even segment of an industry...they're about getting a foot in the door to wedge things open.

cmdli 5y ago

Ultimately, this is about freedom for tech companies, not users. Users will have to use whatever the tech companies give them, and tech companies are always going to do things that benefit themselves the most. I wouldn’t be surprised if users are simply forced to use some external service that has a much worse user experience and ultimately the consumer suffers.

oh_sigh 5y ago

What kind of predatory behavior do you predict that would exist, but wouldn't get the app banned from the app store?

spideymans 5y ago
If software developers are free to distribute outside of controlled app stores, free from any external vetting, we'd see the exact same predatory behaviour we see in the broader software industry. Hard-to-cancel subscriptions and misleading free trial scams would be two big examples. Dating app publishers haven't made any secret of their predatory desire to make mobile subscription cancellations more difficult, to extract greater revenue from users, for example [0] However, the "attack surface" would be much bigger, given that consumers spend far more time on their smartphones than on PCs. 0: https://nypost.com/2019/11/06/tinder-owners-stock-tumbles-after-missing-revenue-forecasts/ https://nypost.com/2019/11/06/tinder-owners-stock-tumbles-af...

heavyset_go 5y ago

Apple already allows their customers to be victims of scams to the tune of millions of dollars a year[1]. Actual competition in this space means that more security-minded groups can offer users better solutions than the one that Apple forces down their throats. For example, F-Droid in particular is very good at protecting users. [1] https://www.theverge.com/2021/2/8/22272849/apple-app-store-scams-ios-fraud-reviews-ratings-flicktype https://www.theverge.com/2021/2/8/22272849/apple-app-store-s...

KennyBlanken 5y ago
I don't know if things have changed but I only used F-Droid as a way to get packages and update them. It's worthless for trying to find an app. The descriptions are terrible and often misleading ("Pubic transit schedule app!"...that turns out to only be for one specific scandanvian trolley system...) the search function is terrible and there's zero user review or rating system. F-Droid also has no e-commerce functionality. The vast majority of software on F-Droid is My First Android App garbage, usually doesn't follow any common best practices for UI/UX on Android, is extremely specific (like a door-opening app for a hackerspace in Germany) or all of the above. I don't see how you could possibly compare them with a straight face. The one or two times I've found an app on Apple's app store to not be up to snuff, getting a refund was completely painless and Apple is known for being pretty liberal about refunds, because I think both they and app developers realize that a smooth exit for an unhappy app customer is the best for everyone involved. The paid apps I've bought on iOS have been miles better than Android apps, too. I was shocked to discover that an excellent Solitare program I used on an original iPhone is still kicking around getting regular updates from its developer. It shows one ad, briefly, after a game win (I think it doesn't even show an ad after a game loss.) Most of the stuff I bought on Android? The dev abandoned it within a year or two, and then it broke not long after...
- anonymousab 5y ago
  > The vast majority of software on F-Droid is My First Android App garbage, usually doesn't follow any common best practices for UI/UX on Android, is extremely specific And thank goodness for that. If I just want an app to strip EXIF data and crop+resize, the relevant F-Droid app will be that, and just that, and will simply have a button front and center to do the things, and not hide crap behind whatever fancy multiple-taps nested menu indistinguishable-from-background options are the latest Google-driven UX fad. And as a bonus, it'll usually be smaller and lacking the analytics and ads and nagging subscription features that infest so many comparative "useful" apps on the play store.

malermeister 5y ago

> Governments have never been great at regulating away anti-consumer behaviour. I think EU governments have actually been really good at that. The two year mandatory warranty for everything comes to mind, as do regulations that require business to be truthful about price in listings and not add a bunch of fees just before checkout (Airbnb is a lot less frustrating in the EU, for example). There's also the mandatory 14 day cooling period during which you are entitled to return anything bought online for a full refund and a whole bunch more: https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/consumer/consumer_laws/consumer_rights_in_eu.html https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/consumer/consumer_laws...