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California study begins screening for MDMA-assisted therapy for PTSD

246 points by pmoriarty 5y ago

abledon 5y ago
I don't think this stuff should be sold, say, in a gas station beside the humpty dumpty peanuts... but it does have its place. The mental health epidemic for returning veterans for example[1]: "More than 45,000 veterans and active-duty service members have killed themselves in the past six years. That is more than 20 deaths a day — in other words, __more suicides each year than the total American military deaths in Afghanistan and Iraq__." "“One of the biggest battles is the military culture,” Ms. Ruocco said. “Seeking mental health treatment goes against everything they are taught in boot camp,” where service members are told “to push through pain, to think of everybody else before self, to solve problems with lethal force if necessary.”" [1] https://archive.is/oxZZ3#selection-533.0-533.303 https://archive.is/oxZZ3#selection-533.0-533.303
- vmception 5y ago
  Right, it should be sold next to the other poisonous stuff at the gas station that has disclaimers for the consumer to keep it away from children. The public itself needs to readjust its role with the government, where availability doesn't mean endorsement.
  - nerdponx 5y ago
    This doesn't work with alcohol or nicotine. Why should it work with MDMA?
    - taurath 5y ago
      One might rather live in a world where MDMA (a far less addicting substance with more acute rather than chronic side effects) is endemic rather than those two.
      - emteycz 5y ago
        Yeah, MDMA will simply stop working for you for a while after you do it a few times in a row. Alcohol, not really.
        SpodGaju 5y ago
        You literally described what addiction is in reference to MDMA. And this is going to be the problem with the drug for treating mood disorders. Just like Prozac, it will stop working And you will need a larger dose for the same action. Just because you don’t actively go out and seek for a drug does not mean you are not addicted (conditioned)to it.
        WillDaSilva 5y ago
        Addiction and tolerance are related, but distinct.
        SpodGaju 5y ago
        The outcome is the same no matter the difference. But can I tell you my own brother said he "could not live without Prozac." What does that sound like to you?
        amanaplanacanal 5y ago
        Like he’s taking a life saving medicine? How many people can’t live without insulin?
        SpodGaju 5y ago
        If you have never taken these medication you have never known what it is like to try to stop them. Heroin could be considered a life saving medicine in the same vein. Prozac artificially increases serotonin as as a result your serotonin receptor density changes. So trying to stop the drug, not only do you end up with all these horrible side effect, but your depression will be much worse until your receptor density normalizes again. There is a biological marker for the need of insulin. There is no such thing when it comes to prozac. Keep trying people.
  - jychang 5y ago
    YOU might be an adult, but honestly in the past few years, it seems pretty clear that plenty of people who are age 18 or 21 or even age 40 can't seem to act like adults. And I say that as someone who is a proponent of MDMA legalization. It is well known that humans can't make rational choices. If refrigerators with CFCs were still legal to purchase alongside non-CFC refrigerators, I'd be willing to bet the ozone layer would probably not exist right now. If leaded gasoline wasn't basically banned, I bet plenty of people will still drive around using leaded gasoline.
    - Dma54rhs 5y ago
      True, covid only proved the public health question can't be solved from the individualistic point of view. Many drugs have a big cost on society, not just individual who decides to take them.
    - watwut 5y ago
      > YOU might be an adult, but honestly in the past few years, it seems pretty clear that plenty of people who are age 18 or 21 or even age 40 can't seem to act like adults. That is because "acting like adult" is used as term of approval. It means "a theoretically ideal" behavior. It does not mean "average adult have that psychology" nor "average adult have that value".
      - jychang 5y ago
        That's like calling "getting a C- in a class so that you pass the class" or "not pissing your own pants" some sort of "theoretically ideal" behavior. Yes, it's "ideal" in the sense that not everyone accomplishes that behavior (some people will fail a class or have bladder issues, obviously). But that doesn't mean "half the population failing Algebra I" or "half the population regularly pees their own pants" is an acceptable outcome in society. Just because you can define "acting like an adult" as ideal rather than true in all real cases doesn't mean it shouldn't be an expectation.
    - vmception 5y ago
      This doesn’t seem to change my point. Lysol can kill you and all your children. Mouthwash can. And for something with more similarities: advil. All sold in gas stations. So, do the studies just so that we can have fine print on the side of the bottle just like everything else, and sell it alongside everything else.
- kgwxd 5y ago
  > think of everybody else before self, to solve problems with lethal force if necessary. What choice do you have if you become the problem for everybody else?
- virtualritz 5y ago
  > I don't think this stuff should be sold, say, in a gas station beside the humpty dumpty peanuts... but it does have its place. But alcohol (or tobacco) should? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rational_scale_to_assess_the_harm_of_drugs_(mean_physical_harm_and_mean_dependence).svg https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rational_scale_to_asses...
  - SpodGaju 5y ago
    No, they shouldn’t.
  - moritonal 5y ago
    I believe this is an almost text-book case of the Straw man argument[1]. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
    - bin_bash 5y ago
      I think it's Whataboutism, not Straw man
  - klysm 5y ago
    Well, there go the goal posts
  - W4ldi 5y ago
    If you think Tobacco and Alcohol are as dangerous as MDMA you have no idea about drugs. It can escalate far far far more easily and I hate those comparison. I'm speaking from experience.
    - LocalH 5y ago
      Alcohol is far more dangerous than MDMA, both in long-term usage and immediate effects. Especially when you consider how socially acceptable it is to drink alcohol, and thus the total consumption of alcohol is far higher. Tobacco is largely dangerous in the long term, the immediate damage from tobacco is much smaller.
- ramesh31 5y ago
  >I don't think this stuff should be sold, say, in a gas station beside the humpty dumpty peanuts... but it does have its place. Yeah, almost like it should be... a prescription medication sold at pharmacies?
- standardUser 5y ago
  "I don't think this stuff should be sold, say, in a gas station" You have two options- the drug can be sold legally or we can have an excess number of deaths from overdoses, impurities and black market violence. For some inexplicable reason, the majority of people continue to chose the option that guarantees the most human suffering.
  - seanmcdirmid 5y ago
    > For some inexplicable reason, the majority of people continue to chose the option that guarantees the most human suffering. The problem is that we are asked to decriminalize drugs (like fentanyl) at the same time that we are asked to dedicated massive public resources for the rehabilitation of those people who then used those decriminalized drugs. I would be happy if it were one way or the other, but right now it sucks.
    - standardUser 5y ago
      The money we spend to try (and fail) to stop drug production, trafficking, sale and use could instead be used to help cover the obviously colossal, multi-generational shortfall we have on mental health and addiction spending. Not to mention revenue raised from taxes. Maybe there should be exceptions made for exceptionally deadly and addictive dugs, like fentanyl.
      - seanmcdirmid 5y ago
        That money won't be enough. Those people are simply broken, most of them aren't being fixed no matter how many resources we throw at them. Convincing us that we should let people do what they want with drugs and somehow...that it is also our responsibility to pick up the pieces for these people as a consequence, it sounds like hypocrisy. Deflecting that society was responsible for the drug abuse in the first place (by letting people be poor and closing the mental hospitals) isn't going to convince many people that we should allow drug abuse and pay for the consequences as well.
        5y ago
jamal-kumar 5y ago
After this whole debacle in Canada [1] where two therapists were doing some downright freaky cuddle puddle from hell with a blindfold on a traumatized person, I am more curious about what they're doing to screen the therapists. These people hardly met the guidelines that MAPS set for therapy, and as described quite ridiculously violated people's well being instead. [1] https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/bc-mdma-therapy-videos-1.6400256 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/bc-mdma-ther...
- s5300 5y ago
  Thanks for linking this. That is… really fucked up. Predators in the healthcare industry need to face serious punishment. Unfortunately, they largely don’t and get away with things.
  - adflux 5y ago
    - pmoriarty 5y ago
      "The clips culminate with Buisson struggling and wailing as Yensen uses his entire body to pin her to the bed and Dryer holds a towel in her mouth." That is not enjoyment, not consensual, and not ethical.
    - scyzoryk_xyz 5y ago
      “Enjoying it” isn’t a therapeutic effect in itself.
    - s5300 5y ago
      I hate to post a comment like this on HN, but since I can’t downvote… Did you… actually read the article? Like, at all?
      - eyelidlessness 5y ago
        Sometimes this is the right comment to post, here or anywhere.
nyanpasu64 5y ago
Will Complex PTSD patients be involved when developing and testing PTSD treatments?
- taurath 5y ago
  Given the DSM keeps CPTSD out in the latest version 5, no. Frankly until it does mental healthcare in the US won’t move forward in a substantial way as they keep trying to treat people with trauma with CBT and medication. Still the PTSD dx works for those with CPTSD, so it’s not all lost. But it gets really tricky since so many diagnoses are almost subsumed with the concept of CPTSD. Extremely hopeful for MDMA therapy though. It has huge potential.
  - cupcake-unicorn 5y ago
    Gave you an upvote. CBT has done so much damage and really is a step backwards for those with trauma. It's ridiculous how all the knowledge we have about trauma still hasn't hit the mainstream psychiatric institution yet and 9 out of 10 times with the average provider it comes down to "Have you tried CBT?" versus trauma informed treatments that actually work (somatic therapy, IFS, EMDR, ketamine/psychedelics, stellate ganglion block, etc) The irony is you may not believe you're really traumatized if you've been spent 10 years in standard CBT being gaslit about your "cognitive distortions" and wondering why it's not working...
    - sonofhans 5y ago
      Yes, exactly. CBT can easily be retraumatizing for CPTSD survivors. It’s so common for it to fall into symptom whack-a-mole rather than understanding the true arising of the disorder and a useful path to healing.
    - throwaway684936 5y ago
      CBT is very neurotypical-centric. Hate it. CBT by itself is inappropriately prescribed as a comprehensive treatment plan for ADHD-related insomnia when there's little evidence for its efficacy compared to CBT for other insomnias. And don't get me started on CBT and autism.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
BossingAround 5y ago
If you're interested in MDMA sessions, and specifically MAPS (the pharma company that runs the trials), you might want to listen to the Cover story podcast, which deals with the MDMA/psylocybin culture of California as well as these trials. The first episode is at [1], the first episode dealing with maps is at [2]. These rape allegations are highly disconcerting and disheartening. [1] https://www.thecut.com/2021/11/cover-story-podcast-goes-into-world-of-psychedelic-therapy.html https://www.thecut.com/2021/11/cover-story-podcast-goes-into... [2] https://www.thecut.com/2022/03/cover-story-podcast-open-heart-surgery.html https://www.thecut.com/2022/03/cover-story-podcast-open-hear...
- SpodGaju 5y ago
  Do you know I believe this without even reading those articles? Because MDMA is nothing new. Really it’s not. All it does is artificially increase serotonin. This is not a change of paradigm, it’s the same old thinking that never ends up helping anyone. And the only people who package drug that does the same thing as an old drug that never helps anyone are sociopaths.
  - smilespray 5y ago
    The only people who write in such absolutes have Dunning-Kruger as their middle name.
    - SpodGaju 5y ago
      What absolute? That MDMA increases serotonin in the synaptic cleft just like prozac?
      - pmoriarty 5y ago
        If "All [MDMA] does is artificially increase serotonin.... just like prozac" then Prozac and MDMA would have the same effect. But they have radically different effects, so they must do at least something differently, despite sharing some similarities.
you-are-trash 5y ago
zackees 5y ago
servytor 5y ago
I have always thought it is hysterical that there are street drugs (MDMA, Ketamine) that have an immediate impact on emotions, yet the global medical establishment only supports drugs that take 2-4 weeks to 'kick in' with a very slight change that a substantial amount of patients do not even get. What is going on when we measure competency that way.
- SpodGaju 5y ago
  - JimBlackwood 5y ago
    > I’m not gonna bother posting any links … only because no one listens. This is why I don’t listen. If you have any sources, please share. I’d be interested.
    - SpodGaju 5y ago
      https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0269881110372544 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/026988111037254... The fact that I have to post this and that is not known for a drug that’s existed for this long is because People need to be spoonfed their sources. It’s hacker news, I’m not writing a research paper. And even just ligically, if Prozac worked why do we still have all these issues with depression and PTSD?
      - tadbit 5y ago
        > The fact that I have to post this and that is not known for a drug that’s existed for this long is because People need to be spoonfed their sources. > It’s hacker news, I’m not writing a research paper. You are the one making claims. If you aren't going to take the time to back them up with trusted sources don't expect anyone to take your claims seriously.
        SpodGaju 5y ago
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
throwaway995566 5y ago
Last summer I had a psychadelic-assisted therapy session with MDMA and a guide (along with integration session after the main experience). It was one of the more powerful experiences of my life, and has led to sustained positive change in my life. The experience itself was at a hotel room I had booked. For just under six hours, I lay on the bed with an eye mask and headphones playing instrumental music picked by my guide. MDMA is commonly known as a party drug but under different settings and with different intentions, it had the power to turn to yourself examine yourself and your life in a state of love free of the fear and anxiety that we often feel in life. At least for me, this produced clarifying insights about myself and my life which have persisted long after the session. Very excited to see progress being made for the use of MDMA to treat PTSD, and hopefully a broader class of people beyond that.
- kilroy123 5y ago
  Interesting. So you just laid there listening to music? No talking? No physical contact with anyone?
  - throwaway995566 5y ago
    Yes, that’s right. The guide was available if I needed anything but other than using the bathroom once a few hours in I just laid there. I should note that everyone’s journeys are different, and even for a single person no journey will be the same as the last. But my experience at least demonstrated the power of MDMA to serve as a healing substance when used with a particular intention and in a particular setting. The preparation work prior to the experience as well as the integration work following the experience are also incredibly important for it to have a long-lasting effect.
    - jamal-kumar 5y ago
      Yeah, that's the approach I'm hearing the most positive reviews about - Taking it alone and leaving the therapist to talk about it after, hence the integration
  - 5y ago
ArtWomb 5y ago
Honestly the therapy we need right now is a 3 day ibogaine cure for opioid addiction. All wrapped in a pleasant, life-affirming trip, in lieu of a sickened withdrawal. If pharmacologists could engineer it into a single dose, it would mean the restoration of livelihoods and hollowed out cities across the globe ;)
NoImmatureAdHom 5y ago
Just a point of clarification: pure MDMA (what is used in the study) is often very different from "E", "Ecstasy", and other street preparations. The party drug formulations are often pressed into pills and contain other things (on purpose, to give a different effect). It's often MDA, methamphetamine, cocaine, caffeine[0]. Consider this difference when comparing personal experience or anecdata about pressed pills (or impure "molly") to what they're using here. 0: e.g. https://www.drugsdata.org/search.php?substance1=2012&substance2=-3&datefield=tested&sold_as_ecstasy=yes&m1=1&y1=2020&m2=12&y2=2020 https://www.drugsdata.org/search.php?substance1=2012&substan...
- amanaplanacanal 5y ago
  True that. Although it looks like most tested were mdma only.
- toper-centage 5y ago
  Just to add: pill form doesn't necessarily mean it's not pure MDMA; on the other hand, powder or crystal form doesn't mean it's pure MDMA. When buying illegal substances from unknown sources, the truth is you don't know what you are taking, period.
  - NoImmatureAdHom 5y ago
    Correct, and to add on: Test kits are perfectly legal. There are also harm-reduction organizations like DanceSafe and Zendo that will help at festivals etc.
erdos4d 5y ago
I did this drug in Europe when I lived there, it was quite popular with the club crowd. I can definitely see how it could be therapeutic for people with PTSD and other psychological traumas. Hopefully this will lead to effective treatments and end the prohibition surrounding this and other psychedelic/psychoactive substances.
deltille 5y ago
I've been keeping an eye, albeit not close, on this, and have mixed feelings erring happy that it's slowly trudging forward. I've had friends with PTSD for whom ketamine, as the most contemporary similar treatment that comes to mind, did wonders-- and others for whom it became a vice. In my experience PTSD tends to respond very well to that kind of 'break through' treatment; some people just need something to kick down their mental walls hard enough that they can start building roads out (ie. different behaviors, which later only need to be reinforced, not initiated). PTSD is deeply paralyzing. I always thought a nontrivial % of HN users were on medications like adderall. The ambiguities-- the great potential good, likewise the great potential evil, and weighing them coldly-- of using a medication that can be therapeutically used or abused are pretty familiar to everyone I've known on any scheduled medication. Of course, the 'therapy session' nature of therapeutic MDMA and ketamine complicates that; you have to trust the therapist pretty much completely, and sadly any situation of total surrender is very easy to abuse, no matter how much it might have helped.
throwaway9725-3 5y ago
I applied to take part in a psilocybin study to treat major depressive disorder in Chicago as I lost my 8 month old baby to her battle with heart disease. I had a day of intake, interviews, medical exams, etc, but ultimately wasn't selected to take part in the study. During the intake though, I realised I probably have PTSD, more so than depression. So, this is great news! Or, it's definitely a step in the right direction at least.
- Adraghast 5y ago
  My condolences for that loss.
kodah 5y ago
There's an excellent writing somewhere in my favorites about how people go through stages of trauma and are often retraumatized by various causes that are non-sequitur to the original trauma. I imagine the role that psychedelics can play is moving a patient through the stages that are more vulnerable to this retraumatization.

246 points by pmoriarty 5y ago

I don't think this stuff should be sold, say, in a gas station beside the humpty dumpty peanuts... but it does have its place. The mental health epidemic for returning veterans for example[1]: "More than 45,000 veterans and active-duty service members have killed themselves in the past six years. That is more than 20 deaths a day — in other words, __more suicides each year than the total American military deaths in Afghanistan and Iraq__." "“One of the biggest battles is the military culture,” Ms. Ruocco said. “Seeking mental health treatment goes against everything they are taught in boot camp,” where service members are told “to push through pain, to think of everybody else before self, to solve problems with lethal force if necessary.”" [1] https://archive.is/oxZZ3#selection-533.0-533.303 https://archive.is/oxZZ3#selection-533.0-533.303

vmception 5y ago
Right, it should be sold next to the other poisonous stuff at the gas station that has disclaimers for the consumer to keep it away from children. The public itself needs to readjust its role with the government, where availability doesn't mean endorsement.
- nerdponx 5y ago
  This doesn't work with alcohol or nicotine. Why should it work with MDMA?
  - taurath 5y ago
    One might rather live in a world where MDMA (a far less addicting substance with more acute rather than chronic side effects) is endemic rather than those two.
    - emteycz 5y ago
      Yeah, MDMA will simply stop working for you for a while after you do it a few times in a row. Alcohol, not really.
      - SpodGaju 5y ago
        You literally described what addiction is in reference to MDMA. And this is going to be the problem with the drug for treating mood disorders. Just like Prozac, it will stop working And you will need a larger dose for the same action. Just because you don’t actively go out and seek for a drug does not mean you are not addicted (conditioned)to it.
        WillDaSilva 5y ago
        Addiction and tolerance are related, but distinct.
        SpodGaju 5y ago
        The outcome is the same no matter the difference. But can I tell you my own brother said he "could not live without Prozac." What does that sound like to you?
        amanaplanacanal 5y ago
        Like he’s taking a life saving medicine? How many people can’t live without insulin?
        SpodGaju 5y ago
        If you have never taken these medication you have never known what it is like to try to stop them. Heroin could be considered a life saving medicine in the same vein. Prozac artificially increases serotonin as as a result your serotonin receptor density changes. So trying to stop the drug, not only do you end up with all these horrible side effect, but your depression will be much worse until your receptor density normalizes again. There is a biological marker for the need of insulin. There is no such thing when it comes to prozac. Keep trying people.
- jychang 5y ago
  YOU might be an adult, but honestly in the past few years, it seems pretty clear that plenty of people who are age 18 or 21 or even age 40 can't seem to act like adults. And I say that as someone who is a proponent of MDMA legalization. It is well known that humans can't make rational choices. If refrigerators with CFCs were still legal to purchase alongside non-CFC refrigerators, I'd be willing to bet the ozone layer would probably not exist right now. If leaded gasoline wasn't basically banned, I bet plenty of people will still drive around using leaded gasoline.
  - Dma54rhs 5y ago
    True, covid only proved the public health question can't be solved from the individualistic point of view. Many drugs have a big cost on society, not just individual who decides to take them.
  - watwut 5y ago
    > YOU might be an adult, but honestly in the past few years, it seems pretty clear that plenty of people who are age 18 or 21 or even age 40 can't seem to act like adults. That is because "acting like adult" is used as term of approval. It means "a theoretically ideal" behavior. It does not mean "average adult have that psychology" nor "average adult have that value".
    - jychang 5y ago
      That's like calling "getting a C- in a class so that you pass the class" or "not pissing your own pants" some sort of "theoretically ideal" behavior. Yes, it's "ideal" in the sense that not everyone accomplishes that behavior (some people will fail a class or have bladder issues, obviously). But that doesn't mean "half the population failing Algebra I" or "half the population regularly pees their own pants" is an acceptable outcome in society. Just because you can define "acting like an adult" as ideal rather than true in all real cases doesn't mean it shouldn't be an expectation.
  - vmception 5y ago
    This doesn’t seem to change my point. Lysol can kill you and all your children. Mouthwash can. And for something with more similarities: advil. All sold in gas stations. So, do the studies just so that we can have fine print on the side of the bottle just like everything else, and sell it alongside everything else.
kgwxd 5y ago
> think of everybody else before self, to solve problems with lethal force if necessary. What choice do you have if you become the problem for everybody else?
virtualritz 5y ago
> I don't think this stuff should be sold, say, in a gas station beside the humpty dumpty peanuts... but it does have its place. But alcohol (or tobacco) should? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rational_scale_to_assess_the_harm_of_drugs_(mean_physical_harm_and_mean_dependence).svg https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rational_scale_to_asses...
- SpodGaju 5y ago
  No, they shouldn’t.
- moritonal 5y ago
  I believe this is an almost text-book case of the Straw man argument[1]. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
  - bin_bash 5y ago
    I think it's Whataboutism, not Straw man
- klysm 5y ago
  Well, there go the goal posts
- W4ldi 5y ago
  If you think Tobacco and Alcohol are as dangerous as MDMA you have no idea about drugs. It can escalate far far far more easily and I hate those comparison. I'm speaking from experience.
  - LocalH 5y ago
    Alcohol is far more dangerous than MDMA, both in long-term usage and immediate effects. Especially when you consider how socially acceptable it is to drink alcohol, and thus the total consumption of alcohol is far higher. Tobacco is largely dangerous in the long term, the immediate damage from tobacco is much smaller.
ramesh31 5y ago
>I don't think this stuff should be sold, say, in a gas station beside the humpty dumpty peanuts... but it does have its place. Yeah, almost like it should be... a prescription medication sold at pharmacies?
standardUser 5y ago
"I don't think this stuff should be sold, say, in a gas station" You have two options- the drug can be sold legally or we can have an excess number of deaths from overdoses, impurities and black market violence. For some inexplicable reason, the majority of people continue to chose the option that guarantees the most human suffering.
- seanmcdirmid 5y ago
  > For some inexplicable reason, the majority of people continue to chose the option that guarantees the most human suffering. The problem is that we are asked to decriminalize drugs (like fentanyl) at the same time that we are asked to dedicated massive public resources for the rehabilitation of those people who then used those decriminalized drugs. I would be happy if it were one way or the other, but right now it sucks.
  - standardUser 5y ago
    The money we spend to try (and fail) to stop drug production, trafficking, sale and use could instead be used to help cover the obviously colossal, multi-generational shortfall we have on mental health and addiction spending. Not to mention revenue raised from taxes. Maybe there should be exceptions made for exceptionally deadly and addictive dugs, like fentanyl.
    - seanmcdirmid 5y ago
      That money won't be enough. Those people are simply broken, most of them aren't being fixed no matter how many resources we throw at them. Convincing us that we should let people do what they want with drugs and somehow...that it is also our responsibility to pick up the pieces for these people as a consequence, it sounds like hypocrisy. Deflecting that society was responsible for the drug abuse in the first place (by letting people be poor and closing the mental hospitals) isn't going to convince many people that we should allow drug abuse and pay for the consequences as well.
      - 5y ago

jamal-kumar 5y ago

After this whole debacle in Canada [1] where two therapists were doing some downright freaky cuddle puddle from hell with a blindfold on a traumatized person, I am more curious about what they're doing to screen the therapists. These people hardly met the guidelines that MAPS set for therapy, and as described quite ridiculously violated people's well being instead. [1] https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/bc-mdma-therapy-videos-1.6400256 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/bc-mdma-ther...

s5300 5y ago
Thanks for linking this. That is… really fucked up. Predators in the healthcare industry need to face serious punishment. Unfortunately, they largely don’t and get away with things.
- adflux 5y ago
  - pmoriarty 5y ago
    "The clips culminate with Buisson struggling and wailing as Yensen uses his entire body to pin her to the bed and Dryer holds a towel in her mouth." That is not enjoyment, not consensual, and not ethical.
  - scyzoryk_xyz 5y ago
    “Enjoying it” isn’t a therapeutic effect in itself.
  - s5300 5y ago
    I hate to post a comment like this on HN, but since I can’t downvote… Did you… actually read the article? Like, at all?
    - eyelidlessness 5y ago
      Sometimes this is the right comment to post, here or anywhere.

nyanpasu64 5y ago

Will Complex PTSD patients be involved when developing and testing PTSD treatments?

taurath 5y ago
Given the DSM keeps CPTSD out in the latest version 5, no. Frankly until it does mental healthcare in the US won’t move forward in a substantial way as they keep trying to treat people with trauma with CBT and medication. Still the PTSD dx works for those with CPTSD, so it’s not all lost. But it gets really tricky since so many diagnoses are almost subsumed with the concept of CPTSD. Extremely hopeful for MDMA therapy though. It has huge potential.
- cupcake-unicorn 5y ago
  Gave you an upvote. CBT has done so much damage and really is a step backwards for those with trauma. It's ridiculous how all the knowledge we have about trauma still hasn't hit the mainstream psychiatric institution yet and 9 out of 10 times with the average provider it comes down to "Have you tried CBT?" versus trauma informed treatments that actually work (somatic therapy, IFS, EMDR, ketamine/psychedelics, stellate ganglion block, etc) The irony is you may not believe you're really traumatized if you've been spent 10 years in standard CBT being gaslit about your "cognitive distortions" and wondering why it's not working...
  - sonofhans 5y ago
    Yes, exactly. CBT can easily be retraumatizing for CPTSD survivors. It’s so common for it to fall into symptom whack-a-mole rather than understanding the true arising of the disorder and a useful path to healing.
  - throwaway684936 5y ago
    CBT is very neurotypical-centric. Hate it. CBT by itself is inappropriately prescribed as a comprehensive treatment plan for ADHD-related insomnia when there's little evidence for its efficacy compared to CBT for other insomnias. And don't get me started on CBT and autism.

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BossingAround 5y ago

If you're interested in MDMA sessions, and specifically MAPS (the pharma company that runs the trials), you might want to listen to the Cover story podcast, which deals with the MDMA/psylocybin culture of California as well as these trials. The first episode is at [1], the first episode dealing with maps is at [2]. These rape allegations are highly disconcerting and disheartening. [1] https://www.thecut.com/2021/11/cover-story-podcast-goes-into-world-of-psychedelic-therapy.html https://www.thecut.com/2021/11/cover-story-podcast-goes-into... [2] https://www.thecut.com/2022/03/cover-story-podcast-open-heart-surgery.html https://www.thecut.com/2022/03/cover-story-podcast-open-hear...

SpodGaju 5y ago
Do you know I believe this without even reading those articles? Because MDMA is nothing new. Really it’s not. All it does is artificially increase serotonin. This is not a change of paradigm, it’s the same old thinking that never ends up helping anyone. And the only people who package drug that does the same thing as an old drug that never helps anyone are sociopaths.
- smilespray 5y ago
  The only people who write in such absolutes have Dunning-Kruger as their middle name.
  - SpodGaju 5y ago
    What absolute? That MDMA increases serotonin in the synaptic cleft just like prozac?
    - pmoriarty 5y ago
      If "All [MDMA] does is artificially increase serotonin.... just like prozac" then Prozac and MDMA would have the same effect. But they have radically different effects, so they must do at least something differently, despite sharing some similarities.

you-are-trash 5y ago

zackees 5y ago

servytor 5y ago

I have always thought it is hysterical that there are street drugs (MDMA, Ketamine) that have an immediate impact on emotions, yet the global medical establishment only supports drugs that take 2-4 weeks to 'kick in' with a very slight change that a substantial amount of patients do not even get. What is going on when we measure competency that way.

SpodGaju 5y ago
- JimBlackwood 5y ago
  > I’m not gonna bother posting any links … only because no one listens. This is why I don’t listen. If you have any sources, please share. I’d be interested.
  - SpodGaju 5y ago
    https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0269881110372544 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/026988111037254... The fact that I have to post this and that is not known for a drug that’s existed for this long is because People need to be spoonfed their sources. It’s hacker news, I’m not writing a research paper. And even just ligically, if Prozac worked why do we still have all these issues with depression and PTSD?
    - tadbit 5y ago
      > The fact that I have to post this and that is not known for a drug that’s existed for this long is because People need to be spoonfed their sources. > It’s hacker news, I’m not writing a research paper. You are the one making claims. If you aren't going to take the time to back them up with trusted sources don't expect anyone to take your claims seriously.
      - SpodGaju 5y ago

deleted 5y ago

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throwaway995566 5y ago

Last summer I had a psychadelic-assisted therapy session with MDMA and a guide (along with integration session after the main experience). It was one of the more powerful experiences of my life, and has led to sustained positive change in my life. The experience itself was at a hotel room I had booked. For just under six hours, I lay on the bed with an eye mask and headphones playing instrumental music picked by my guide. MDMA is commonly known as a party drug but under different settings and with different intentions, it had the power to turn to yourself examine yourself and your life in a state of love free of the fear and anxiety that we often feel in life. At least for me, this produced clarifying insights about myself and my life which have persisted long after the session. Very excited to see progress being made for the use of MDMA to treat PTSD, and hopefully a broader class of people beyond that.

kilroy123 5y ago
Interesting. So you just laid there listening to music? No talking? No physical contact with anyone?
- throwaway995566 5y ago
  Yes, that’s right. The guide was available if I needed anything but other than using the bathroom once a few hours in I just laid there. I should note that everyone’s journeys are different, and even for a single person no journey will be the same as the last. But my experience at least demonstrated the power of MDMA to serve as a healing substance when used with a particular intention and in a particular setting. The preparation work prior to the experience as well as the integration work following the experience are also incredibly important for it to have a long-lasting effect.
  - jamal-kumar 5y ago
    Yeah, that's the approach I'm hearing the most positive reviews about - Taking it alone and leaving the therapist to talk about it after, hence the integration
- 5y ago

ArtWomb 5y ago

Honestly the therapy we need right now is a 3 day ibogaine cure for opioid addiction. All wrapped in a pleasant, life-affirming trip, in lieu of a sickened withdrawal. If pharmacologists could engineer it into a single dose, it would mean the restoration of livelihoods and hollowed out cities across the globe ;)

NoImmatureAdHom 5y ago

Just a point of clarification: pure MDMA (what is used in the study) is often very different from "E", "Ecstasy", and other street preparations. The party drug formulations are often pressed into pills and contain other things (on purpose, to give a different effect). It's often MDA, methamphetamine, cocaine, caffeine[0]. Consider this difference when comparing personal experience or anecdata about pressed pills (or impure "molly") to what they're using here. 0: e.g. https://www.drugsdata.org/search.php?substance1=2012&substance2=-3&datefield=tested&sold_as_ecstasy=yes&m1=1&y1=2020&m2=12&y2=2020 https://www.drugsdata.org/search.php?substance1=2012&substan...

amanaplanacanal 5y ago
True that. Although it looks like most tested were mdma only.
toper-centage 5y ago
Just to add: pill form doesn't necessarily mean it's not pure MDMA; on the other hand, powder or crystal form doesn't mean it's pure MDMA. When buying illegal substances from unknown sources, the truth is you don't know what you are taking, period.
- NoImmatureAdHom 5y ago
  Correct, and to add on: Test kits are perfectly legal. There are also harm-reduction organizations like DanceSafe and Zendo that will help at festivals etc.

erdos4d 5y ago

I did this drug in Europe when I lived there, it was quite popular with the club crowd. I can definitely see how it could be therapeutic for people with PTSD and other psychological traumas. Hopefully this will lead to effective treatments and end the prohibition surrounding this and other psychedelic/psychoactive substances.

deltille 5y ago

I've been keeping an eye, albeit not close, on this, and have mixed feelings erring happy that it's slowly trudging forward. I've had friends with PTSD for whom ketamine, as the most contemporary similar treatment that comes to mind, did wonders-- and others for whom it became a vice. In my experience PTSD tends to respond very well to that kind of 'break through' treatment; some people just need something to kick down their mental walls hard enough that they can start building roads out (ie. different behaviors, which later only need to be reinforced, not initiated). PTSD is deeply paralyzing. I always thought a nontrivial % of HN users were on medications like adderall. The ambiguities-- the great potential good, likewise the great potential evil, and weighing them coldly-- of using a medication that can be therapeutically used or abused are pretty familiar to everyone I've known on any scheduled medication. Of course, the 'therapy session' nature of therapeutic MDMA and ketamine complicates that; you have to trust the therapist pretty much completely, and sadly any situation of total surrender is very easy to abuse, no matter how much it might have helped.

throwaway9725-3 5y ago

I applied to take part in a psilocybin study to treat major depressive disorder in Chicago as I lost my 8 month old baby to her battle with heart disease. I had a day of intake, interviews, medical exams, etc, but ultimately wasn't selected to take part in the study. During the intake though, I realised I probably have PTSD, more so than depression. So, this is great news! Or, it's definitely a step in the right direction at least.

Adraghast 5y ago
My condolences for that loss.

kodah 5y ago

There's an excellent writing somewhere in my favorites about how people go through stages of trauma and are often retraumatized by various causes that are non-sequitur to the original trauma. I imagine the role that psychedelics can play is moving a patient through the stages that are more vulnerable to this retraumatization.