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Are the bribes being directed by MS US or are these things taking place in overseas offices where customs are different? One example was Hungary --I imagine Uk
by mc32 5y ago
Are the bribes being directed by MS US or are these things taking place in overseas offices where customs are different? One example was Hungary --I imagine Ukraine and Nigeria too would have executives there who are part of the local culture where they do things differently.
While the actions go afoul of US law, they may be in line with local customs culture and practices --that is harder to root out as now you are trying to change another culture (cultural imperialism as it was called).
If this is being directed from the US, then it's easier to root out.
- aeternum 5y agoYes, a bribe in one country is often seen as just the cost of doing business in another. In the US should tips be considered bribes? What if you tip at the beginning rather than the end in order to get better service?
- mistrial9 5y agothis is a formal fallacy - joining something substantial, serious and a matter of public law, to something personal, of little consequence, and governed at a local level. please reconsider this as this important public discussion evolves on YNews?
- aeternum 5y agoWhat is your definition of bribe then? Keep in mind that in countries like Cambodia and Yemen, something like 70% of public companies receive bribes. It is very much common practice and culturally acceptable.
- edgyquant 5y agoI would say at that level of acceptance it isn’t a bribe.
- ipaddr 5y agoIt is a bribe but it is accepted and perhaps not illegal
- seanmcdirmid 5y agoIt probably is illegal but the countries have weak rule of law (if rule of law is even a thing in those countries at all). Note that there are differences between fees and bribery, if something can be legally presented as a fee, it is no longer considered a bribe (important if you are an American or American company).
- aeternum 5y agoThis is why I brought up the example of pre-tipping. It is clearly not a fee but it is generally accepted. If you hand the Valet a $20 and say please park it close, is it a tip, fee, or bribe? How about at a bar, can you tell the bar tender "I have an extra $5 if you make it a heavy pour"? How about attending the Salesforce conference but it's mostly because you want to visit SF and see Metallica/Chainsmokers? We have bribes in the US, we just don't think of them as bribes.
- edgyquant 5y agoThat’s because none of those things are bribes. The definition of bribe is * persuade (someone) to act in one's favor, typically illegally or dishonestly, by a gift of money or other inducement.* Tipping your waitress isn’t illegally or dishonestly persuading someone to act in your favor.
- aeternum 5y agoSure it is, tipping a bartender for a heavy pour can be interpreted as colluding with the bartender to steal alcohol from the bar owner. Both illegal and dishonest. Asking your company to send you to Salesforce just to see Metallica/Chainsmokers is clearly dishonest, the expectation is that your primary reason for going is to network and learn + represent your company.
- jimbob45 5y agoHis example was fine and doesn’t stand alone. Who’s to say that other countries don’t consider US lobbying to be a form of bribery? Realistically, no country is going to see their own bribery as actual bribery because no one wants to have to blatantly admit they’re the bad guy.
- striking 5y agoThere are laws around transparency in lobbying in the US. It would be bribery if you didn't abide by those laws when conducting your lobbying activities.
- mc32 5y agoNot Poster, but I agree to a degree. It’s defined as such but in practice it can have the effects of bribery. If so, is it then legal bribery? Politicians set up foundations and then people or organizations coincidentally benefiting from some legislation donate or underwrite these foundations…
- Melatonic 5y agoIt is also super easy to get around those transparencies - the lobbying system in the US is for sure a big big problem Bribery with extra steps!
- markdown 5y ago> something personal, of little consequence, and governed at a local level https://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/microsoft-corp/summary?id=D000000115 https://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/microsoft-corp/summary?id=D...
- vmception 5y agoI consider the associated penalty in the US as a bribe of public officials and cost of doing business. It takes a special level of hubris for Americans to go “noo, its different because we have due process”, when the user experience of a simpler bribe and slightly more convoluted bribe is 1:1
- vbezhenar 5y agoI live in Kazakhstan and while I don't have any evidence, I'm pretty sure that many huge western companies operating here bribed officials. I don't think that's necessary part of local culture. Of course in poor country officials with $200/month salary are happy to get $1000 gift for signing $100 000 agreement. Western companies are huge part of corruption source here. That's my opinion. I've heard that Ikea decided not to bribe officials, so they didn't get approval to build their shops here. I kind of applaud them if that's true and I wish every so-called civilized company took that stance. But money doesn't stink I guess.
- fallingknife 5y ago> I don't think that's necessary part of local culture > Ikea decided not to bribe officials, so they didn't get approval to build their shops here Pick one
- pempem 5y agoThe OP's comment feels like debating about origin. Is it due to local culture or the standard being set by external actors and their culture
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- buran77 5y agoMS has also been involved in bribery scandals all over Europe. Sometimes they were found guilty, sometimes the other party to the corruption charge found a way to make it all go away (more corruption). But when you do this all over the place the "it's the way things are done there" changes to "it's the way you do things". Every time MS is firing a couple of "rogue employees" because they got caught, not because they did it. And nothing changes at leadership level. Their way of doing things certainly extends to the SEC and DOJ via more convoluted and corrupt influencing paths.
- vbezhenar 5y ago
- wpietri 5y agoIt doesn't matter. For US persons and companies, it's always illegal. Here's the official page: https://www.trade.gov/us-foreign-corrupt-practices-act https://www.trade.gov/us-foreign-corrupt-practices-act Here's the Wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Corrupt_Practices_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Corrupt_Practices_Act And here's a detailed look at one particular project, a Trump project in Azerbaijan: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/03/13/donald-trumps-worst-deal https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/03/13/donald-trumps-...
- mc32 5y agoOf course the US considers it illegal. But if you’re a Bulgarian executive running the Bulgarian subsidiary of a US company, they may do things closer to local custom despite US corporate directives. You’re demanding that foreigners extirpate their foreignness while they are employees of a US company. It’s not going to happen 100%.
- ScoobleDoodle 5y agoBy enforcing anti corruption on the parent company in the US, the parent company should in turn communicate and enforce their own anti corruption stance and policies on their foreign subsidiaries or branches. If there is no consequence for the parent company then the opposite might happen: extra money used for bribes is provided to the foreign subsidiaries with a wink; now the corruption is increasing.
- mc32 5y agoYou have to consider that local competitors and other foreign competitors may not have any issues with bribery, maybe they’re both from cultures where bribery is normal. Now you’re asking a local executive to paddle up river while their competitors go down river. Unless you have a somewhat leveled playing field it’ll be an uphill battle. I believe there were espionage scandals in Europe by US intelligence where US companies were given confidential info on other negotiations —this was ab attempt to level the field in the face of what the US saw as unfair competition brought on by bribery.
- markdown 5y ago> While the actions go afoul of US law LMAO, surely you jest! The US is one of the most corrupt societies in the world. Where else is it not only accepted practice, but enshrined in law with "money is speech". Please see https://www.fec.gov/ https://www.fec.gov/ (BWAWAAHAHAHHAH, this is an government website listing bribes... they don't even have to hide it!). See also, https://opensecrets.org/ https://opensecrets.org/.
- bluGill 5y agoMoney is speech. There is no way around it. Even in the most unfree society in the world you can go in your shower and whisper anything you want. Nobody will know you said anything though so it won't do anything. To make a difference in a society as large as the US you need a lot of money to pay for things. You can print and mail flyers (money for paper, printing, and postage), you can take out ads on prime time TV... It all comes down to money is needed to make your message get someplace. There for limiting money is limiting speech.
- markdown 5y agoIf limiting money is limiting speech, why is Microsoft in trouble here, and why can't I bribe a cop to let me off the hook for speeding? You know damn well that limiting speech is normal and accepted everywhere (eg. hate speech or crying "Fire!" in a theatre). But somehow, the rich have convinced Americans that their speech can't be limited. That their bribery ought to be legal.
- bluGill 5y agoI place strict scrutiny on limits to speech. I don't limit hate speech even though I disagree with it. Even fire is only limited to ways that cause a stampede
- KingOfCoders 5y agoWhile working as an executive for eBay in Germany, the company made it totally clear on many occasions what illegal behaviour is and that they would take action. And the standards were the higher US standards not the lower German ones.