9 ms·

Everyone who's been saying "I wish they would just charge money for this", here's your chance to put your money where your mouth is!

by jefftk 5y ago

ary 5y ago
I was a loud proponent of this and just signed up at the $10 tier. I'm thrilled to see they put this together but still dismayed at the re-org that resulted in firing (some?) of the staff that maintained MDN.
nightski 5y ago
I'll pay. But I kind of wish they were laser focused on just the content and not obligated to deliver useless pay for features.
- paxys 5y ago
  The content isn't (and shouldn't be) paywalled. There's no option but to add other paid features around it, which someone users may find useless but others maybe won't. You could also always just treat it as a monthly donation and not use any of it.
  - nightski 5y ago
    That's my point. I'd rather donate and just have the money go towards improving the free content instead of them wasting time on email notifications and useless stuff like that. It feels like my money is being wasted when really I just wanted to support the wiki.
    - paxys 5y ago
      You could always have been donating already then. This is for people who may need these features and so start paying money when they weren't before.
      - nightski 5y ago
        There is no way to donate to MDN directly. You can only donate to the Mozilla charitable foundation which is not related to MDN.
    - rndgermandude 5y ago
      Donations are all fine and dandy, but there are some problems: - Getting people to donate in a recurring fashion is exceedingly hard. Not impossible (as some patreons prove), but still hard. - Getting businesses to donate at all, let alone in a recurring fashion, is even harder. mdn needs money, not just for content, but to keep the lights on. Their content is furthermore aimed largely at "professionals" (and some enthusiasts), meaning convincing businesses to give money is even more important than e.g. is the case with wikipedia or your random youtube content creator. Businesses are easier to convince to spend money if you offer them something in return. Doesn't really have to be much or something particularly valuable, just something, anything really, that then can be used to justify the expense to management/comptrollers/legal/owners as a "valid" expense. I personally had people contact me in the past, on more than one occasion, saying they made good use of some code I open sourced in their commercial stuff, and they'd like to gift me something, but they cannot get permission from their employer to transfer any funds unless I formally enter a "consulting" contract (and NDA and yadayada) or officially sell them something. So the best they could do is offer me some company swag and/or a small donation out of their own pocket. So now I own a bunch of T-Shirts and coffee mugs from various companies :P (and I am OK with that, since I never had the intention to profit from that code). So creating some easy "premium features" may indeed enable mdn to collect more money, especially from businesses, compared to them just asking for donations. It remains to be seen if that will work for mdn, and if mdn will then use the money "wisely", but I really cannot fault them for their approach so far...
- BeeKeeper 5y ago
  OpenWebDocs is focused on MDN/CanIUse browser compatability data AND MDN content. Many people who used to work for moz on MDN now work with them. OpenWebDocs.org
qbasic_forever 5y ago
Are they going to rehire all the dedicated editors and staff they laid off? Or is this really just charging money for all their now open source contributed content...
- Dangeranger 5y ago
  This is a “what about … “ response. The only important thing is if they are going to invest in new staff in the future. The old staff almost certainly have new jobs in new companies. Let’s not move the goal posts. Having reason to invest in enhancing documentation, and creating a viable revenue stream by doing so is a good thing, even if decisions in the past are regrettable.
  - qbasic_forever 5y ago
    No the "we'll pay for it!" comments were in the context of the staff being let go and departments spun down. We meant, we'll pay to keep this high quality content going. No one said, sure yeah fire all those folks, flail around for a year, convince people to just give free content for funsies, then we'll slap a price tag on it so the exec bonuses can keep getting higher. We'd pay for the old Mozilla that cared about a high quality web. That Mozilla appears to be long dead.
    - Dangeranger 5y ago
      When people said “we will pay for it” the decision had already been made, it was too late. Mozilla is not pay-walling the open documentation, it’s still available. They are pay-walling features that make it easier to save pages, navigate, and use the docs offline. There are alternatives, in the form of Devdocs.io, Zeal, and Dash, if you want similar features but don’t want to pay Mozilla. You are not losing anything you already can access to my knowledge.
- rndgermandude 5y ago
  Neither. As the article specifically mentions, they will not be charging for the existing open content, or any future changes or additions to it. Why you would try to suggest they might do this is beyond me. They will be selling additional "premium features" at launch time, as described in this article, and plan to sell specifically created additional content, like in-depth articles, in the longer run, as described in previous articles. Maybe this will enable them to hire back some of the people they let go (assuming these people are willing). But the main goal is to put mdn on a level of funding where little or no funding from mozilla is required anymore.
reitanqild 5y ago
I didn't say that I think but I am tempted to pay anyway. The big question is: Does the money go to Firefox or to funny projects and (what I consider) insane exec salaries?
- geodel 5y ago
  What is that insane salary? Seems you have no idea about how much executives are paid at that level in general. Or for Mozilla everyone has to work for free?
  - 0xJRS 5y ago
  - rzzzt 5y ago
    Maybe somewhere between the two extremes?
  - cnasc 5y ago
    Does Mozilla pay their software developers an industry-standard TC?
    - pc86 5y ago
      It looks like Mozilla's average SDE salary is about $120k, so yes. The national median software developer salary is something like $110k. The middle 50% range is like $85-150k, so if you're making above 150k TC you're already in the top 1/4 of developers, who are already very high up in general. I say this because people on HN love to pretend that "industry-standard" means $250k+ for new grads and $400k for experienced ICs when that's just not true. FAANG-level salaries (which can absolutely be 300, 400, 500k TC) are the 1% of the 1%.
      - cnasc 5y ago
        I don’t think it’s unreasonable to compare the take-home-pay of a Google engineer working on Chrome to that of a Mozilla engineer working on Firefox. That’s a good peer comparison to make. It is definitely unreasonable to compare a Mozilla engineer’s pay to an average brought down by body-shop CRUD operations. They’re really not the same industry.
TAKEMYMONEY 5y ago
I'd appreciate a pay-what-you-want option. (I still subscribed for $50 annual because you called me out, promise I'm not shilling!)
chefandy 5y ago
The only 3rd party requests I see on their pages are Google analytics and a CDN'd js lib. Hell yes I'll throw them some cash if they'll keep their core product free for folks who don't use it often/can't afford it. I'd love to see them get rid of google analytics even, but compared to most it's pretty clean. What pisses me off is when someone like a newspaper will start charging AND keep 4 TB of tracking garbage every single page load. Get lost.
- 0des 5y ago
  Get rid of GA.
  - chefandy 5y ago
    Agreed. Considering how much they put into usability, they should be able to get enough data without third party tracking involved at all. That said, perfect is the enemy of good and I'll give them credit for being good— especially considering the norm.
- shkkmo 5y ago
  Subscribing to MDN Plus does not support Open Web Docs, which is the organization that does the funding for creating/managing the content for the free product. If you want to support the free product, donate directly to Open Web Docs: https://opencollective.com/open-web-docs https://opencollective.com/open-web-docs
  - chefandy 5y ago
    Much appreciated.
duxup 5y ago
Sad truth is nobody wants to pay for anything and when they can they'll just complain. I think we as internet users are as much a part of the 'you're the product' and 'free for life .. oh never mind' ecosystem because most of the users on the internet won't respond to anything else.
- peteforde 5y ago
  Speak for yourself. I was signed up within 90 seconds of seeing the announcement. That's not intended to be virtue signalling, just one anecdotal datum - and I'm confident that there are many, many people who feel the gratitude I feel.
vorpalhex 5y ago
I'll pick up a subscription. MDN is valuable and anything that helps keep the content free is valuable.
tomp 5y ago
But also keep in mind that you'd be funding an organisation that supports censorship.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
selectnull 5y ago
I will. As soon as they allow me to pay, because I do not plan to move to US or Canada. > Today, MDN Plus is available in the US and Canada. In the coming months, we will expand to other countries including France, Germany, Italy, Spain, Belgium, Austria, the Netherlands, Ireland, United Kingdom, Switzerland, Malaysia, New Zealand and Singapore.

Everyone who's been saying "I wish they would just charge money for this", here's your chance to put your money where your mouth is!

by jefftk 5y ago

Everyone who's been saying "I wish they would just charge money for this", here's your chance to put your money where your mouth is!

ary 5y ago

I was a loud proponent of this and just signed up at the $10 tier. I'm thrilled to see they put this together but still dismayed at the re-org that resulted in firing (some?) of the staff that maintained MDN.

nightski 5y ago

I'll pay. But I kind of wish they were laser focused on just the content and not obligated to deliver useless pay for features.

paxys 5y ago
The content isn't (and shouldn't be) paywalled. There's no option but to add other paid features around it, which someone users may find useless but others maybe won't. You could also always just treat it as a monthly donation and not use any of it.
- nightski 5y ago
  That's my point. I'd rather donate and just have the money go towards improving the free content instead of them wasting time on email notifications and useless stuff like that. It feels like my money is being wasted when really I just wanted to support the wiki.
  - paxys 5y ago
    You could always have been donating already then. This is for people who may need these features and so start paying money when they weren't before.
    - nightski 5y ago
      There is no way to donate to MDN directly. You can only donate to the Mozilla charitable foundation which is not related to MDN.
  - rndgermandude 5y ago
    Donations are all fine and dandy, but there are some problems: - Getting people to donate in a recurring fashion is exceedingly hard. Not impossible (as some patreons prove), but still hard. - Getting businesses to donate at all, let alone in a recurring fashion, is even harder. mdn needs money, not just for content, but to keep the lights on. Their content is furthermore aimed largely at "professionals" (and some enthusiasts), meaning convincing businesses to give money is even more important than e.g. is the case with wikipedia or your random youtube content creator. Businesses are easier to convince to spend money if you offer them something in return. Doesn't really have to be much or something particularly valuable, just something, anything really, that then can be used to justify the expense to management/comptrollers/legal/owners as a "valid" expense. I personally had people contact me in the past, on more than one occasion, saying they made good use of some code I open sourced in their commercial stuff, and they'd like to gift me something, but they cannot get permission from their employer to transfer any funds unless I formally enter a "consulting" contract (and NDA and yadayada) or officially sell them something. So the best they could do is offer me some company swag and/or a small donation out of their own pocket. So now I own a bunch of T-Shirts and coffee mugs from various companies :P (and I am OK with that, since I never had the intention to profit from that code). So creating some easy "premium features" may indeed enable mdn to collect more money, especially from businesses, compared to them just asking for donations. It remains to be seen if that will work for mdn, and if mdn will then use the money "wisely", but I really cannot fault them for their approach so far...
BeeKeeper 5y ago
OpenWebDocs is focused on MDN/CanIUse browser compatability data AND MDN content. Many people who used to work for moz on MDN now work with them. OpenWebDocs.org

qbasic_forever 5y ago

Are they going to rehire all the dedicated editors and staff they laid off? Or is this really just charging money for all their now open source contributed content...

Dangeranger 5y ago
This is a “what about … “ response. The only important thing is if they are going to invest in new staff in the future. The old staff almost certainly have new jobs in new companies. Let’s not move the goal posts. Having reason to invest in enhancing documentation, and creating a viable revenue stream by doing so is a good thing, even if decisions in the past are regrettable.
- qbasic_forever 5y ago
  No the "we'll pay for it!" comments were in the context of the staff being let go and departments spun down. We meant, we'll pay to keep this high quality content going. No one said, sure yeah fire all those folks, flail around for a year, convince people to just give free content for funsies, then we'll slap a price tag on it so the exec bonuses can keep getting higher. We'd pay for the old Mozilla that cared about a high quality web. That Mozilla appears to be long dead.
  - Dangeranger 5y ago
    When people said “we will pay for it” the decision had already been made, it was too late. Mozilla is not pay-walling the open documentation, it’s still available. They are pay-walling features that make it easier to save pages, navigate, and use the docs offline. There are alternatives, in the form of Devdocs.io, Zeal, and Dash, if you want similar features but don’t want to pay Mozilla. You are not losing anything you already can access to my knowledge.
rndgermandude 5y ago
Neither. As the article specifically mentions, they will not be charging for the existing open content, or any future changes or additions to it. Why you would try to suggest they might do this is beyond me. They will be selling additional "premium features" at launch time, as described in this article, and plan to sell specifically created additional content, like in-depth articles, in the longer run, as described in previous articles. Maybe this will enable them to hire back some of the people they let go (assuming these people are willing). But the main goal is to put mdn on a level of funding where little or no funding from mozilla is required anymore.

reitanqild 5y ago

I didn't say that I think but I am tempted to pay anyway. The big question is: Does the money go to Firefox or to funny projects and (what I consider) insane exec salaries?

geodel 5y ago
What is that insane salary? Seems you have no idea about how much executives are paid at that level in general. Or for Mozilla everyone has to work for free?
- 0xJRS 5y ago
- rzzzt 5y ago
  Maybe somewhere between the two extremes?
- cnasc 5y ago
  Does Mozilla pay their software developers an industry-standard TC?
  - pc86 5y ago
    It looks like Mozilla's average SDE salary is about $120k, so yes. The national median software developer salary is something like $110k. The middle 50% range is like $85-150k, so if you're making above 150k TC you're already in the top 1/4 of developers, who are already very high up in general. I say this because people on HN love to pretend that "industry-standard" means $250k+ for new grads and $400k for experienced ICs when that's just not true. FAANG-level salaries (which can absolutely be 300, 400, 500k TC) are the 1% of the 1%.
    - cnasc 5y ago
      I don’t think it’s unreasonable to compare the take-home-pay of a Google engineer working on Chrome to that of a Mozilla engineer working on Firefox. That’s a good peer comparison to make. It is definitely unreasonable to compare a Mozilla engineer’s pay to an average brought down by body-shop CRUD operations. They’re really not the same industry.

TAKEMYMONEY 5y ago

I'd appreciate a pay-what-you-want option. (I still subscribed for $50 annual because you called me out, promise I'm not shilling!)

chefandy 5y ago

The only 3rd party requests I see on their pages are Google analytics and a CDN'd js lib. Hell yes I'll throw them some cash if they'll keep their core product free for folks who don't use it often/can't afford it. I'd love to see them get rid of google analytics even, but compared to most it's pretty clean. What pisses me off is when someone like a newspaper will start charging AND keep 4 TB of tracking garbage every single page load. Get lost.

0des 5y ago
Get rid of GA.
- chefandy 5y ago
  Agreed. Considering how much they put into usability, they should be able to get enough data without third party tracking involved at all. That said, perfect is the enemy of good and I'll give them credit for being good— especially considering the norm.
shkkmo 5y ago
Subscribing to MDN Plus does not support Open Web Docs, which is the organization that does the funding for creating/managing the content for the free product. If you want to support the free product, donate directly to Open Web Docs: https://opencollective.com/open-web-docs https://opencollective.com/open-web-docs
- chefandy 5y ago
  Much appreciated.

duxup 5y ago

Sad truth is nobody wants to pay for anything and when they can they'll just complain. I think we as internet users are as much a part of the 'you're the product' and 'free for life .. oh never mind' ecosystem because most of the users on the internet won't respond to anything else.

peteforde 5y ago
Speak for yourself. I was signed up within 90 seconds of seeing the announcement. That's not intended to be virtue signalling, just one anecdotal datum - and I'm confident that there are many, many people who feel the gratitude I feel.

vorpalhex 5y ago

I'll pick up a subscription. MDN is valuable and anything that helps keep the content free is valuable.

tomp 5y ago

But also keep in mind that you'd be funding an organisation that supports censorship.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

selectnull 5y ago

I will. As soon as they allow me to pay, because I do not plan to move to US or Canada. > Today, MDN Plus is available in the US and Canada. In the coming months, we will expand to other countries including France, Germany, Italy, Spain, Belgium, Austria, the Netherlands, Ireland, United Kingdom, Switzerland, Malaysia, New Zealand and Singapore.