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> We want to live in a culture where a joke on the internet doesn't lead to a struggle session at work. Everyone wants to do that, until they find themselves t

> We want to live in a culture where a joke on the internet doesn't lead to a struggle session at work. Everyone wants to do that, until they find themselves the target of a joke while struggling to have a good career, live in a nice place, and raise a family as a member of an unprivileged group with a lot of adverse baggage to overcome. Not everyone thinks such jokes are funny, and they have just as much a right to be pissed off about them as you think you have to make them. Getting along with your peers is an essential duty at most jobs, and that includes refraining from unnecessarily upsetting them.

coffeemug 5y ago
These things start out attempting to correct an injustice and then take on a life of their own. Unscrupulous people see it as a career opportunity under the pretense of moral righteousness. This is exactly what happened in the Soviet Union in 1930s. All the evils were done in the name of correcting injustice and helping the oppressed. I'm in favor of correcting injustices, obviously. The problem is with the opportunists.
ericmay 5y ago
Do you have to be part of an unprivileged group to find a joke offensive and deserving of a severe reaction? And does this only apply in America? Like if I go to Germany and they make fun of Americans for being fat I can get really mad and shame them and stuff right? ———- Though in my own personal experience of being the butt of many jokes, I find it’s easiest to just disarm them by laughing and then trying to take the person out for a beer. Then we can laugh at my expense together. I’ve never found being angry to be a long-term solution TBH. But that’s my experience.
- HWR_14 5y ago
  > in my own personal experience of being the butt of many jokes, I find it’s easiest to just disarm them by laughing and then trying to take the person out for a beer. Then we can laugh at my expense together It sounds like the jokes people are making at your expense are because of a single action that they are mocking, possibly as a callback to a trait you have. Do you see how it would be different was a joke about something intrinsic and permanent that you've been hearing your whole life? And that instead of being good natured, it was being told by someone who would never share a beer with you?
  - ericmay 5y ago
    Well there are very few such people, and even KKK members can be befriended by a black person. > It sounds like the jokes people are making at your expense are because of a single action that they are mocking, possibly as a callback to a trait you have. Are traits ok to make fun of? And if I take an action and someone makes fun of it, is it not hurtful? I’m not trying to draw comparisons here, but I’m not sure you can generally invalidate the experiences of others either. Comedy, and making fun of these things and each other is progress. When we let words make us fragile we give them power that they shouldn’t have. People all over the world are or can be mean because of ignorance. Why give them more power and leverage over you?
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
rayiner 5y ago
Are you a "member of an unprivileged group?" If not, what exactly do you think life is like for us that we can't take a joke? Sticks and stones and whatnot: https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:rP0nqeTGscgJ:https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/10/large-majorities-dislike-political-correctness/572581/+&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=safari https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:rP0nqe... > Whites are ever so slightly less likely than average to believe that political correctness is a problem in the country: 79 percent of them share this sentiment. Instead, it is Asians (82 percent), Hispanics (87 percent), and American Indians (88 percent) who are most likely to oppose political correctness. In 30+ years of being a "brown guy" in the U.S., the only thing that's ever really gotten under my skin is the self-righteous paternalism of white liberals when it comes to the social norms related to race and identity. It really gives me an understanding of what working class people (another target of liberal paternalism) must have felt like all these decades...
- enraged_camel 5y ago
  >> Are you a "member of an unprivileged group?" If not, what exactly do you think life is like for us that we can't take a joke? ... In 30+ years of being a "brown guy" in the U.S., the only thing that's ever really gotten under my skin is the self-righteous paternalism of white liberals when it comes to the social norms related to race and identity. As another "brown guy" who has been in the US for decades, I can only say: you must have really thick skin. Either that, or you haven't actually had to deal with any vicious "jokes" from the more privileged groups. >> It really gives me an understanding of what working class people (another target of liberal paternalism) must have felt like all these decades... Well, coming from someone who used to be an engineer and is now a lawyer, this is simply a stunning statement, to say the least. So you think you understand how working class people must feel like because of "self-righteous paternalism of white liberals"? That's just so incredibly tone-deaf and presumptions. Jesus Christ.
  - coffeecat 5y ago
    What are some examples of jokes/bullying that you've encountered?
rootusrootus 5y ago
> unnecessarily upsetting them That's just the first half good advice. Don't be a jerk when you talk, don't be a jerk when you listen. Don't try to offend people unnecessarily, and don't be offended unnecessarily. As soon as you decided that the only metric which matters is when someone is unnecessarily upset, offended, or whatever, everything was lost. In that case nobody can say anything.
- otterley 5y ago
  That unfairly burdens the target of the joke. And if you take pains not to offend your work colleagues, then the "don't be offended unnecessarily" half is far less likely to be an issue.
  - nec4b 5y ago
    - Forgeties79 5y ago
      Holy shoehorn, batman.
  - rootusrootus 5y ago
    > if you take pains not to offend your work colleagues, then the "don't be offended unnecessarily" half is far less likely to be an issue. I sort of agree, but not to the point where I think you can disregard the second half of the advice. For every person in the wild who is acting in bad faith, trolling, trying to be offensive, there is someone else on a hair trigger who takes offense to everything, who reads into every statement an underlying insult.
- phs318u 5y ago
  Please define being a jerk, what constitutes offence, and the distinction between unnecessary and (implied) necessary offence.
  - 5y ago
baggagehandler 5y ago
BurningFrog 5y ago
In reality, it's not the poor unprivileged who rise up and cancel people who broke some norm. It's by and large highly educated white people, attacking other highly educated white people. Which looks a lot a cutthroat social status game among highly educated white people.
- vorpalhex 5y ago
  This is the answer. The cut throat cancel culture group can be divided into three categories. The people who use it as a tool for control, the people who embrace it as a form of group identity, and the well-meaning folks supporting the above two. The group identity, dominance fighting group is probably the largest group. The well-meaning folk seem to either graduate up or wash out.
- refurb 5y ago
  This. It was never about race, it was always about politics and power. If you can shut down your political opponents under the guise of social justice all the better.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- raxxorrax 5y ago
  It is. But it isn't necessarily the in-crowd of success. On the contrary, strong indignation often arise from a position of deep insecurity. Maybe the insecurity to lose social status, sure, but there could be any other reason too. It also was always part of the internet that people pile up on others. What is new is that there are some groups that seem to get a direct endorsement for such behavior from the media landscape.
mbrodersen 5y ago
What you are suggesting is impossible in practice. It is impossible to not accidentally upset somebody no matter what you say. Unless what you say is so meaningless and vanilla that you might as well not have said anything. We would have to ban all jokes, all political opinions, all scientific discoveries (because religious people might be upset), all expressions of art etc. That is impossible.
- otterley 5y ago
  Then how do millions of people manage to accomplish this every single day? Also, statements like this come across as a justification for not even trying. I hope that's not what you intend.
  - nec4b 5y ago
    Maybe they are boring or maybe you don't have the means to hear what millions of people say every single day?
  - krageon 5y ago
    They accomplish it because the folks around them are normal human beings that don't completely fly off the handle when something they don't like is said by someone else. You talk about it, rib back or leave. It's not rocket science.
    - otterley 5y ago
      That's possible, but a more likely explanation is that most people know better than to make inappropriate jokes about their colleagues. In my 30-year-long career, the number of people I've observed making such jokes is far outweighed by the number of people who maintain a professional demeanor.
      - mbrodersen 5y ago
        Let me give you an example: Let’s say (for arguments sake) that I got upset reading your comment. Following your logic it is now your fault that I am upset. So you need to change your behaviour until I am no longer upset. Can you see how impractical/impossible that is? Any opinion you have might upset somebody. So the only way to not upset anybody is to stay silent.
raxxorrax 5y ago
There are plainly people that abuse this and are offended because they want to. Maybe they just don't like you or have an unresolved problem with themselves. Being upset doesn't net you anything, but the a important thing is that you aren't allowed to shut people up in the name of an abstract unprivileged group and we see that too often when people want to police speech.

coffeemug 5y ago

These things start out attempting to correct an injustice and then take on a life of their own. Unscrupulous people see it as a career opportunity under the pretense of moral righteousness. This is exactly what happened in the Soviet Union in 1930s. All the evils were done in the name of correcting injustice and helping the oppressed. I'm in favor of correcting injustices, obviously. The problem is with the opportunists.

ericmay 5y ago

Do you have to be part of an unprivileged group to find a joke offensive and deserving of a severe reaction? And does this only apply in America? Like if I go to Germany and they make fun of Americans for being fat I can get really mad and shame them and stuff right? ———- Though in my own personal experience of being the butt of many jokes, I find it’s easiest to just disarm them by laughing and then trying to take the person out for a beer. Then we can laugh at my expense together. I’ve never found being angry to be a long-term solution TBH. But that’s my experience.

HWR_14 5y ago
> in my own personal experience of being the butt of many jokes, I find it’s easiest to just disarm them by laughing and then trying to take the person out for a beer. Then we can laugh at my expense together It sounds like the jokes people are making at your expense are because of a single action that they are mocking, possibly as a callback to a trait you have. Do you see how it would be different was a joke about something intrinsic and permanent that you've been hearing your whole life? And that instead of being good natured, it was being told by someone who would never share a beer with you?
- ericmay 5y ago
  Well there are very few such people, and even KKK members can be befriended by a black person. > It sounds like the jokes people are making at your expense are because of a single action that they are mocking, possibly as a callback to a trait you have. Are traits ok to make fun of? And if I take an action and someone makes fun of it, is it not hurtful? I’m not trying to draw comparisons here, but I’m not sure you can generally invalidate the experiences of others either. Comedy, and making fun of these things and each other is progress. When we let words make us fragile we give them power that they shouldn’t have. People all over the world are or can be mean because of ignorance. Why give them more power and leverage over you?
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]

rayiner 5y ago

Are you a "member of an unprivileged group?" If not, what exactly do you think life is like for us that we can't take a joke? Sticks and stones and whatnot: https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:rP0nqeTGscgJ:https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/10/large-majorities-dislike-political-correctness/572581/+&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=safari https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:rP0nqe... > Whites are ever so slightly less likely than average to believe that political correctness is a problem in the country: 79 percent of them share this sentiment. Instead, it is Asians (82 percent), Hispanics (87 percent), and American Indians (88 percent) who are most likely to oppose political correctness. In 30+ years of being a "brown guy" in the U.S., the only thing that's ever really gotten under my skin is the self-righteous paternalism of white liberals when it comes to the social norms related to race and identity. It really gives me an understanding of what working class people (another target of liberal paternalism) must have felt like all these decades...

enraged_camel 5y ago
>> Are you a "member of an unprivileged group?" If not, what exactly do you think life is like for us that we can't take a joke? ... In 30+ years of being a "brown guy" in the U.S., the only thing that's ever really gotten under my skin is the self-righteous paternalism of white liberals when it comes to the social norms related to race and identity. As another "brown guy" who has been in the US for decades, I can only say: you must have really thick skin. Either that, or you haven't actually had to deal with any vicious "jokes" from the more privileged groups. >> It really gives me an understanding of what working class people (another target of liberal paternalism) must have felt like all these decades... Well, coming from someone who used to be an engineer and is now a lawyer, this is simply a stunning statement, to say the least. So you think you understand how working class people must feel like because of "self-righteous paternalism of white liberals"? That's just so incredibly tone-deaf and presumptions. Jesus Christ.
- coffeecat 5y ago
  What are some examples of jokes/bullying that you've encountered?

rootusrootus 5y ago

> unnecessarily upsetting them That's just the first half good advice. Don't be a jerk when you talk, don't be a jerk when you listen. Don't try to offend people unnecessarily, and don't be offended unnecessarily. As soon as you decided that the only metric which matters is when someone is unnecessarily upset, offended, or whatever, everything was lost. In that case nobody can say anything.

otterley 5y ago
That unfairly burdens the target of the joke. And if you take pains not to offend your work colleagues, then the "don't be offended unnecessarily" half is far less likely to be an issue.
- nec4b 5y ago
  - Forgeties79 5y ago
    Holy shoehorn, batman.
- rootusrootus 5y ago
  > if you take pains not to offend your work colleagues, then the "don't be offended unnecessarily" half is far less likely to be an issue. I sort of agree, but not to the point where I think you can disregard the second half of the advice. For every person in the wild who is acting in bad faith, trolling, trying to be offensive, there is someone else on a hair trigger who takes offense to everything, who reads into every statement an underlying insult.
phs318u 5y ago
Please define being a jerk, what constitutes offence, and the distinction between unnecessary and (implied) necessary offence.
- 5y ago

baggagehandler 5y ago

BurningFrog 5y ago

In reality, it's not the poor unprivileged who rise up and cancel people who broke some norm. It's by and large highly educated white people, attacking other highly educated white people. Which looks a lot a cutthroat social status game among highly educated white people.

vorpalhex 5y ago
This is the answer. The cut throat cancel culture group can be divided into three categories. The people who use it as a tool for control, the people who embrace it as a form of group identity, and the well-meaning folks supporting the above two. The group identity, dominance fighting group is probably the largest group. The well-meaning folk seem to either graduate up or wash out.
refurb 5y ago
This. It was never about race, it was always about politics and power. If you can shut down your political opponents under the guise of social justice all the better.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
raxxorrax 5y ago
It is. But it isn't necessarily the in-crowd of success. On the contrary, strong indignation often arise from a position of deep insecurity. Maybe the insecurity to lose social status, sure, but there could be any other reason too. It also was always part of the internet that people pile up on others. What is new is that there are some groups that seem to get a direct endorsement for such behavior from the media landscape.

mbrodersen 5y ago

What you are suggesting is impossible in practice. It is impossible to not accidentally upset somebody no matter what you say. Unless what you say is so meaningless and vanilla that you might as well not have said anything. We would have to ban all jokes, all political opinions, all scientific discoveries (because religious people might be upset), all expressions of art etc. That is impossible.

otterley 5y ago
Then how do millions of people manage to accomplish this every single day? Also, statements like this come across as a justification for not even trying. I hope that's not what you intend.
- nec4b 5y ago
  Maybe they are boring or maybe you don't have the means to hear what millions of people say every single day?
- krageon 5y ago
  They accomplish it because the folks around them are normal human beings that don't completely fly off the handle when something they don't like is said by someone else. You talk about it, rib back or leave. It's not rocket science.
  - otterley 5y ago
    That's possible, but a more likely explanation is that most people know better than to make inappropriate jokes about their colleagues. In my 30-year-long career, the number of people I've observed making such jokes is far outweighed by the number of people who maintain a professional demeanor.
    - mbrodersen 5y ago
      Let me give you an example: Let’s say (for arguments sake) that I got upset reading your comment. Following your logic it is now your fault that I am upset. So you need to change your behaviour until I am no longer upset. Can you see how impractical/impossible that is? Any opinion you have might upset somebody. So the only way to not upset anybody is to stay silent.

raxxorrax 5y ago

There are plainly people that abuse this and are offended because they want to. Maybe they just don't like you or have an unresolved problem with themselves. Being upset doesn't net you anything, but the a important thing is that you aren't allowed to shut people up in the name of an abstract unprivileged group and we see that too often when people want to police speech.