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Germany plans to build Europe's largest military

mrkramer 5y ago
Here we go again. Like the Mark Twain said “History Doesn't Repeat Itself, but It Often Rhymes”.
Eddy_Viscosity2 5y ago
As much as I think Putin's actions justify increased military power in Europe, Germany does not have a great track record as a military super power. Norm has some good points: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXdtafGdIVM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXdtafGdIVM
- krageon 5y ago
  > Germany does not have a great track record as a military super power. They were never really a super power, they were just very fast (i.e. tactically and strategically strong, but in absolute terms not amazing). This changed as things went on, due to good engineering and solid use of resources. They are still well-known for good engineering and the culture that goes along with it and they've moved on ideologically from the problematic past they had. It is not something endemic in Germans that makes it so that whenever they have power they must devolve into fascism. Current day Germany is a fine example of this, because they already have a large amount of (economic) power.
sharemywin 5y ago
what could go wrong?
matt321 5y ago
Again?
vzcx 5y ago
Make Калининград Königsberg Again.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- mardifoufs 5y ago
  No, they lost in 1945 and honestly Germany probably deserved a lot more taken from it. If it wasn't for the cold war, it would have been rightfully broken up in pieces instead of getting away with just getting divided in 2 for a few decades. And the current situation does not excuse Revanchism for Nazi Germany's defeat even if it's to "own russia". Especially since the third Reich literally killed 20 million USSR citizens and waged a war of extermination against the soviets.
fxtentacle 5y ago
The weirdest thing about this is how surprising it was for most Germans, too. In the last election, the "Green" political party gained quite a lot on a promise of "no nuclear power", "less military", and "more feminism" and guess what, now they are the ones extending nuclear power plants and investing heavily into military. I predict that in 1-2 years, we'll have scientific studies about the disconnect between what voters wanted and what politicians delivered. Because in this case, it really seems like the communication broke down somewhere in between. The discrepancy is beyond obvious. Quotes in German: (We stand for a world without nuclear power) "Wir Grüne im Bundestag stehen für eine Welt ohne Atomkraft." https://www.gruene-bundestag.de/themen/atomausstieg https://www.gruene-bundestag.de/themen/atomausstieg (We stand for peace, disarmament, cooperative security, and a culture of military restraint) "Wir Grüne im Bundestag stehen für Frieden, Abrüstung, kooperative Sicherheit und eine Kultur der militärischen Zurückhaltung" https://www.gruene-bundestag.de/themen/sicherheitspolitik https://www.gruene-bundestag.de/themen/sicherheitspolitik
- jialutu 5y ago
  You don't have to wait 1-2 years, there are already studies for the US voting. https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/perspectives-on-politics/article/testing-theories-of-american-politics-elites-interest-groups-and-average-citizens/62327F513959D0A304D4893B382B992B?utm_source=pocket_mylist https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/perspectives-on-poli... Basically, the TL;DR version of this is that no, the average voter's decisions do not sway the decision of politicians, but the politicians decisions are heavily correlated with the preferences of the top 10% earners.
  - vinyl7 5y ago
    I've noticed this for many many years, and it's part of the reason why I changed to registering as an independent. Listen to the candidate's campaigns, their goals, their views...it all sounds great. Then they get voted in and don't do anything of what they said they would do. On one hand it's frustrating, but on the other hand it works the same when looking at the opposing candidate. So it's kind of like...things won't get better but they probably also won't get drastically worse if my chosen candidate doesn't win.
josh_fyi 5y ago
Once all the Germans were warlike and mean But that couldn't happen again We taught them a lesson in 1918 And they've hardly bothered us since then https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3j20voPS0gI&t=1m44s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3j20voPS0gI&t=1m44s
stuaxo 5y ago
I wonder if putting more money into the military will mean less for other areas over time - will quality of life suffer ?
- nradov 5y ago
  Quality of life also tends to suffer when Russians invade your territory or cut off your energy supplies.
BlargMcLarg 5y ago
People are already imagining a worst case scenario. Realistically, Germany has very little to gain from attacking its neighboring countries and has a lot to lose in becoming a worldwide nuclear practice target should it pull anything funny. The people very clearly don't want this either. They have a lot to gain defending what they have. They have a lot to lose trying to forcibly take things from neighbors.
- mcv 5y ago
  Realistically they're not going to be a threat of course, but it's still unsettling to see Germans enthusiastically cheer doubling their military.
thro1 5y ago
They played Putin, this anthem, in very strange way: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bgMl3NQwS4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bgMl3NQwS4 , Dec 12, 2021.
helge9210 5y ago
Someone told them an old joke: A father have his son money to buy a knife. He went and bought a pocket watch instead. A father is furious, but is trying to explain: "Imagine, enemies came, murdered your parents, raped your sisters. What are you going to do then? Tell them 'It's half past two now'?"
- grobclaw 5y ago
  I don't get the joke... Am I missing something?
  - JakDrako 5y ago
    Maybe it's German humor, so... not funny?
dr_faustus 5y ago
To all those now worrying that we are on the way to a Fourth Reich! Fear not! I'm sure the money will be wasted and squandered just as it was for the last 20 years. Even though Germany was often criticized for its small spending on the military, lets not forget that due to the large GDP, the spending in absolute terms is not that meager: 50 billion Euros per year! That is only about 15-20% less than Russia. What has it gotten us? A completely dysfunctional army with almost no working equipment. The part that is working is in large part outdated. As the Ukrainian ambassador to Germany pointed out, the Ukrainians have already destroyed more Russian tanks and armored vehicles and jets than the whole Bundeswehr currently has in working condition. Just as in many Western militaries, the procurement is so f*ked up that most of the money is spent on the development of new weapon systems so at the end of the day, no money seems to be left to actually buy any. The US seems to compensate by just spending even more money. Germany just didn't buy anything and the soldiers are driving around in Wolfs (G wagons! Sans the louis vuitton leather seats, though) from the 70s and can hardly keep more than a handful of their jets in flying condition.
- nradov 5y ago
  In 2015 the German army had to use wooden sticks in exercises because they had no guns. https://www.newsweek.com/germany-cant-explain-use-broomstick-instead-guns-nato-exercise-307902 https://www.newsweek.com/germany-cant-explain-use-broomstick... In 2017 the German navy had zero operational submarines. They were all broken. https://www.defensenews.com/naval/2017/10/20/all-of-germanys-submarines-are-currently-down/ https://www.defensenews.com/naval/2017/10/20/all-of-germanys... In 2018 the German air Force had only 4 Eurofighters combat ready. https://www.dw.com/en/only-4-of-germanys-128-eurofighter-jets-combat-ready-report/a-43611873 https://www.dw.com/en/only-4-of-germanys-128-eurofighter-jet... Hopefully the situation has improved since then?
  - dr_faustus 5y ago
    I doubt it
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
Proven 5y ago
euroderf 5y ago
A German business associate said that the German school system drilled into their heads deep awareness of Germany's war record. To be contrasted with, for example, Japan.
throwawaymanbot 5y ago
publicola1990 5y ago
Wont it raise some red flags especially in France and UK. They even viewed German Reunification with some amount scepticism and concern. Is there any post WW2 aggreement that binds how much conventional forces Germany can have?
rayiner 5y ago
So Donald Trump was right?
- tptacek 5y ago
  I don't understand. What do you mean by this? Donald Trump isn't mentioned in this story at all.
  - rayiner 5y ago
    The Trump administration was an advocate for Germany taking over more of its own defense: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/ambassador-grenell-tells-germany-boost-defense-spending-or-u-s-n1040786 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/ambassador-grenell-tells-...
    - pvg 5y ago
      Every US administration has been an advocate of that more or less since post-war Germany was allowed to have 'its own defense'. two examples at random https://history.state.gov/historicaldocuments/frus1961-63v14/d121 https://history.state.gov/historicaldocuments/frus1961-63v14... https://www.nytimes.com/1981/02/22/world/us-warns-its-allies-they-must-increase-military-spending.html https://www.nytimes.com/1981/02/22/world/us-warns-its-allies...
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]

Here we go again. Like the Mark Twain said “History Doesn't Repeat Itself, but It Often Rhymes”.

As much as I think Putin's actions justify increased military power in Europe, Germany does not have a great track record as a military super power. Norm has some good points: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXdtafGdIVM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXdtafGdIVM

krageon 5y ago
> Germany does not have a great track record as a military super power. They were never really a super power, they were just very fast (i.e. tactically and strategically strong, but in absolute terms not amazing). This changed as things went on, due to good engineering and solid use of resources. They are still well-known for good engineering and the culture that goes along with it and they've moved on ideologically from the problematic past they had. It is not something endemic in Germans that makes it so that whenever they have power they must devolve into fascism. Current day Germany is a fine example of this, because they already have a large amount of (economic) power.

sharemywin 5y ago

what could go wrong?

matt321 5y ago

Again?

vzcx 5y ago

Make Калининград Königsberg Again.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
mardifoufs 5y ago
No, they lost in 1945 and honestly Germany probably deserved a lot more taken from it. If it wasn't for the cold war, it would have been rightfully broken up in pieces instead of getting away with just getting divided in 2 for a few decades. And the current situation does not excuse Revanchism for Nazi Germany's defeat even if it's to "own russia". Especially since the third Reich literally killed 20 million USSR citizens and waged a war of extermination against the soviets.

fxtentacle 5y ago

The weirdest thing about this is how surprising it was for most Germans, too. In the last election, the "Green" political party gained quite a lot on a promise of "no nuclear power", "less military", and "more feminism" and guess what, now they are the ones extending nuclear power plants and investing heavily into military. I predict that in 1-2 years, we'll have scientific studies about the disconnect between what voters wanted and what politicians delivered. Because in this case, it really seems like the communication broke down somewhere in between. The discrepancy is beyond obvious. Quotes in German: (We stand for a world without nuclear power) "Wir Grüne im Bundestag stehen für eine Welt ohne Atomkraft." https://www.gruene-bundestag.de/themen/atomausstieg https://www.gruene-bundestag.de/themen/atomausstieg (We stand for peace, disarmament, cooperative security, and a culture of military restraint) "Wir Grüne im Bundestag stehen für Frieden, Abrüstung, kooperative Sicherheit und eine Kultur der militärischen Zurückhaltung" https://www.gruene-bundestag.de/themen/sicherheitspolitik https://www.gruene-bundestag.de/themen/sicherheitspolitik

jialutu 5y ago
You don't have to wait 1-2 years, there are already studies for the US voting. https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/perspectives-on-politics/article/testing-theories-of-american-politics-elites-interest-groups-and-average-citizens/62327F513959D0A304D4893B382B992B?utm_source=pocket_mylist https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/perspectives-on-poli... Basically, the TL;DR version of this is that no, the average voter's decisions do not sway the decision of politicians, but the politicians decisions are heavily correlated with the preferences of the top 10% earners.
- vinyl7 5y ago
  I've noticed this for many many years, and it's part of the reason why I changed to registering as an independent. Listen to the candidate's campaigns, their goals, their views...it all sounds great. Then they get voted in and don't do anything of what they said they would do. On one hand it's frustrating, but on the other hand it works the same when looking at the opposing candidate. So it's kind of like...things won't get better but they probably also won't get drastically worse if my chosen candidate doesn't win.

josh_fyi 5y ago

Once all the Germans were warlike and mean But that couldn't happen again We taught them a lesson in 1918 And they've hardly bothered us since then https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3j20voPS0gI&t=1m44s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3j20voPS0gI&t=1m44s

stuaxo 5y ago

I wonder if putting more money into the military will mean less for other areas over time - will quality of life suffer ?

nradov 5y ago
Quality of life also tends to suffer when Russians invade your territory or cut off your energy supplies.

BlargMcLarg 5y ago

People are already imagining a worst case scenario. Realistically, Germany has very little to gain from attacking its neighboring countries and has a lot to lose in becoming a worldwide nuclear practice target should it pull anything funny. The people very clearly don't want this either. They have a lot to gain defending what they have. They have a lot to lose trying to forcibly take things from neighbors.

mcv 5y ago
Realistically they're not going to be a threat of course, but it's still unsettling to see Germans enthusiastically cheer doubling their military.

thro1 5y ago

They played Putin, this anthem, in very strange way: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bgMl3NQwS4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bgMl3NQwS4 , Dec 12, 2021.

helge9210 5y ago

Someone told them an old joke: A father have his son money to buy a knife. He went and bought a pocket watch instead. A father is furious, but is trying to explain: "Imagine, enemies came, murdered your parents, raped your sisters. What are you going to do then? Tell them 'It's half past two now'?"

grobclaw 5y ago
I don't get the joke... Am I missing something?
- JakDrako 5y ago
  Maybe it's German humor, so... not funny?

dr_faustus 5y ago

To all those now worrying that we are on the way to a Fourth Reich! Fear not! I'm sure the money will be wasted and squandered just as it was for the last 20 years. Even though Germany was often criticized for its small spending on the military, lets not forget that due to the large GDP, the spending in absolute terms is not that meager: 50 billion Euros per year! That is only about 15-20% less than Russia. What has it gotten us? A completely dysfunctional army with almost no working equipment. The part that is working is in large part outdated. As the Ukrainian ambassador to Germany pointed out, the Ukrainians have already destroyed more Russian tanks and armored vehicles and jets than the whole Bundeswehr currently has in working condition. Just as in many Western militaries, the procurement is so f*ked up that most of the money is spent on the development of new weapon systems so at the end of the day, no money seems to be left to actually buy any. The US seems to compensate by just spending even more money. Germany just didn't buy anything and the soldiers are driving around in Wolfs (G wagons! Sans the louis vuitton leather seats, though) from the 70s and can hardly keep more than a handful of their jets in flying condition.

nradov 5y ago
In 2015 the German army had to use wooden sticks in exercises because they had no guns. https://www.newsweek.com/germany-cant-explain-use-broomstick-instead-guns-nato-exercise-307902 https://www.newsweek.com/germany-cant-explain-use-broomstick... In 2017 the German navy had zero operational submarines. They were all broken. https://www.defensenews.com/naval/2017/10/20/all-of-germanys-submarines-are-currently-down/ https://www.defensenews.com/naval/2017/10/20/all-of-germanys... In 2018 the German air Force had only 4 Eurofighters combat ready. https://www.dw.com/en/only-4-of-germanys-128-eurofighter-jets-combat-ready-report/a-43611873 https://www.dw.com/en/only-4-of-germanys-128-eurofighter-jet... Hopefully the situation has improved since then?
- dr_faustus 5y ago
  I doubt it
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

Proven 5y ago

euroderf 5y ago

A German business associate said that the German school system drilled into their heads deep awareness of Germany's war record. To be contrasted with, for example, Japan.

throwawaymanbot 5y ago

publicola1990 5y ago

Wont it raise some red flags especially in France and UK. They even viewed German Reunification with some amount scepticism and concern. Is there any post WW2 aggreement that binds how much conventional forces Germany can have?

rayiner 5y ago

So Donald Trump was right?

tptacek 5y ago
I don't understand. What do you mean by this? Donald Trump isn't mentioned in this story at all.
- rayiner 5y ago
  The Trump administration was an advocate for Germany taking over more of its own defense: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/ambassador-grenell-tells-germany-boost-defense-spending-or-u-s-n1040786 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/ambassador-grenell-tells-...
  - pvg 5y ago
    Every US administration has been an advocate of that more or less since post-war Germany was allowed to have 'its own defense'. two examples at random https://history.state.gov/historicaldocuments/frus1961-63v14/d121 https://history.state.gov/historicaldocuments/frus1961-63v14... https://www.nytimes.com/1981/02/22/world/us-warns-its-allies-they-must-increase-military-spending.html https://www.nytimes.com/1981/02/22/world/us-warns-its-allies...
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]