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It's like being in an abusive relationship. Indeed, another way it's like an abusive relationship is people's reluctance to leave despite all they've experienc

It's like being in an abusive relationship. Indeed, another way it's like an abusive relationship is people's reluctance to leave despite all they've experienced. I hear all the horror stories and then say "I've been using for ten years and it works well" and I get "oh, but I don't want to have to fiddle with things" (after discussions of how hard Windows is to get to do things). Linux has glitches but Microsoft manipulates people. Maybe people stay because they think that because Windows hurts them, it cares.

hulitu 5y ago
A lot of people stay because it is required by the school or the employer.
_dain_ 5y ago
I've seen so many people say things like: "Windows is fine, all you have to do is [gigantic list of obscure settings changes, registry edits, external freeware programs] to turn off the telemetry!" It will eventually get to the point where it will take more settings-twiddling to make Windows do what you actually want than Linux does.
- adhesive_wombat 5y ago
  I used an Ubuntu 21.10 installer recently, it was completely uneventful to set up with the default side-by-side configuration and actually easier than the Windows one (which must create a Windows account, you can then disconnect this from your local account later with a magic settings dance).
AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
While I don't necessarily disagree with the initial statement, I will say that Linux Desktop has its own kind of abusive relationship, especially if you have to deal with certain parts of the community. GNOME in particular is pretty user-hostile in both design and in its community interactions, and while you can use a different DE GNOME is the default for the most popular and recommended distributions. Personally I've stuck with Windows because I rather hate the package manager/repo model that Linux distros use, where you get your choice between "up to date but frequently broken" rolling-release[0] or "several years out of date but probably stable". To me, the idea it is considered reasonable to expect a user to set up a dev environment and compile software from source is ludicrous, but until relatively recently that's been the norm[1]. Thankfully, AppImage and Flatpak have been gaining popularity and making that much less of a problem. Now the two biggest things keeping me from switching immediately are that I have an Nvidia 1080ti and buying an equivalent AMD card in this market is insane[2], and my Oculus isn't supported at all[3]. Still, I'll go to Linux before I go to Win 11. [0] which still often has out of date and missing packages [1] for anything not packaged by the distro or if you need a newer version [2] thanks Bitcoin Idiots, LLC [3] and from everything I gather no VR solution really works that well on Linux, even Valve's.
- digisign 5y ago
  Agreed on your first paragraph. I use Mate which allows me to sidestep ~80% of gnome's abuse, however some still leaks in through GTK, I think. Re the second, I haven't built an app from source since about 2005? or so.
  - joe_the_user 5y ago
    Yeah, I should have said Ubuntu Mate. It solves most problems. I've had to build apps from source - but these were free extras, not things I needed for basic functionality.
- shrimp_emoji 5y ago
  Hey you again. c: >I have an Nvidia 1080ti Fwiw, I used Linux with an 1080 Ti for years; it was the first card I tried Linux on. The only hitch is having to install Nvidia's proprietary drivers. Distros with GUI tools for drivers (e.g., Manjaro) make this easy. The only problem was actually my G-SYNC monitor. It was one of those super expensive ones with G-SYNC hardware in it. It turns out those just go black if you're not using an Nvidia card && aren't running proprietary drivers. At some point, I gave it and my 1080 Ti away and got an AMD card with FreeSync monitors. Funnily, the FreeSync doesn't actually work. (Luckily, I don't care that much about tearing, and it's less noticeable at >=144 Hz.) AND, with AMD, you don't have a nice GPU settings panel like Nvidia provides (as basic as it is compared to its Windows equivalent). I've noticed no other differences. Nevertheless, having the open source driver in-kernel and not worrying about installing it out of band is nice. >no VR solution really works that well on Linux, even Valve's. Yep, probably; tech is too new. I don't even try stuff like that until it's 30 years old and mainlined. ;D >GNOME Yeah, I don't know how anyone sane likes GNOME, and it's insane to me that KDE isn't the default DE instead. I reckon it's a combo of inertia, the fact that the GNOME faction were the GPL purists compared to TrollTech back in the day, and (enduring?) convergence/low-tech user adoption hopes.
- adhesive_wombat 5y ago
  > Personally I've stuck with Windows because I rather hate the package manager/repo model that Linux distros use I have the opposite feeling: installation by search engine and speculative .exe downloads feels so dirty. There's the Windows store but it doesn't seem to actually work very often. Then again, following StackExchange or blog posts to add keys and deb repos for Ubuntu is no better. The AUR is also similar, but I trust that a bit more than a random blog post since at least there's a flagging mechanism. FWIW, I rarely have issues with rolling releases on Arch, certainly fewer issues than I have with Ubuntu repo package versions.

hulitu 5y ago

A lot of people stay because it is required by the school or the employer.

_dain_ 5y ago

I've seen so many people say things like: "Windows is fine, all you have to do is [gigantic list of obscure settings changes, registry edits, external freeware programs] to turn off the telemetry!" It will eventually get to the point where it will take more settings-twiddling to make Windows do what you actually want than Linux does.

adhesive_wombat 5y ago
I used an Ubuntu 21.10 installer recently, it was completely uneventful to set up with the default side-by-side configuration and actually easier than the Windows one (which must create a Windows account, you can then disconnect this from your local account later with a magic settings dance).

AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago

While I don't necessarily disagree with the initial statement, I will say that Linux Desktop has its own kind of abusive relationship, especially if you have to deal with certain parts of the community. GNOME in particular is pretty user-hostile in both design and in its community interactions, and while you can use a different DE GNOME is the default for the most popular and recommended distributions. Personally I've stuck with Windows because I rather hate the package manager/repo model that Linux distros use, where you get your choice between "up to date but frequently broken" rolling-release[0] or "several years out of date but probably stable". To me, the idea it is considered reasonable to expect a user to set up a dev environment and compile software from source is ludicrous, but until relatively recently that's been the norm[1]. Thankfully, AppImage and Flatpak have been gaining popularity and making that much less of a problem. Now the two biggest things keeping me from switching immediately are that I have an Nvidia 1080ti and buying an equivalent AMD card in this market is insane[2], and my Oculus isn't supported at all[3]. Still, I'll go to Linux before I go to Win 11. [0] which still often has out of date and missing packages [1] for anything not packaged by the distro or if you need a newer version [2] thanks Bitcoin Idiots, LLC [3] and from everything I gather no VR solution really works that well on Linux, even Valve's.

digisign 5y ago
Agreed on your first paragraph. I use Mate which allows me to sidestep ~80% of gnome's abuse, however some still leaks in through GTK, I think. Re the second, I haven't built an app from source since about 2005? or so.
- joe_the_user 5y ago
  Yeah, I should have said Ubuntu Mate. It solves most problems. I've had to build apps from source - but these were free extras, not things I needed for basic functionality.
shrimp_emoji 5y ago
Hey you again. c: >I have an Nvidia 1080ti Fwiw, I used Linux with an 1080 Ti for years; it was the first card I tried Linux on. The only hitch is having to install Nvidia's proprietary drivers. Distros with GUI tools for drivers (e.g., Manjaro) make this easy. The only problem was actually my G-SYNC monitor. It was one of those super expensive ones with G-SYNC hardware in it. It turns out those just go black if you're not using an Nvidia card && aren't running proprietary drivers. At some point, I gave it and my 1080 Ti away and got an AMD card with FreeSync monitors. Funnily, the FreeSync doesn't actually work. (Luckily, I don't care that much about tearing, and it's less noticeable at >=144 Hz.) AND, with AMD, you don't have a nice GPU settings panel like Nvidia provides (as basic as it is compared to its Windows equivalent). I've noticed no other differences. Nevertheless, having the open source driver in-kernel and not worrying about installing it out of band is nice. >no VR solution really works that well on Linux, even Valve's. Yep, probably; tech is too new. I don't even try stuff like that until it's 30 years old and mainlined. ;D >GNOME Yeah, I don't know how anyone sane likes GNOME, and it's insane to me that KDE isn't the default DE instead. I reckon it's a combo of inertia, the fact that the GNOME faction were the GPL purists compared to TrollTech back in the day, and (enduring?) convergence/low-tech user adoption hopes.
adhesive_wombat 5y ago
> Personally I've stuck with Windows because I rather hate the package manager/repo model that Linux distros use I have the opposite feeling: installation by search engine and speculative .exe downloads feels so dirty. There's the Windows store but it doesn't seem to actually work very often. Then again, following StackExchange or blog posts to add keys and deb repos for Ubuntu is no better. The AUR is also similar, but I trust that a bit more than a random blog post since at least there's a flagging mechanism. FWIW, I rarely have issues with rolling releases on Arch, certainly fewer issues than I have with Ubuntu repo package versions.