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at all levels ? there must be limits to this approach right ??? otherwise this way of thinking gets terrifying fast and rapidly descends into conspiracy theory

at all levels ? there must be limits to this approach right ??? otherwise this way of thinking gets terrifying fast and rapidly descends into conspiracy theory land example: "need to find a socially-acceptable solution to a demographic time bomb caused by decades of one child policy, while still maintaining ethnic homogeneity ? perform gain-of-function research to develop a vector that disproportionately harms the elderly" to be absolutely clear, I don't believe this was actually the case in 2019 at all - but as an no-limits "end justifies the means" thought exercise - it is easy to arrive at inhuman dystopian nightmares

stathibus 5y ago
It should surprise nobody that an authoritarian, centrally planned, and massively resource-rich country can perform infrastructure miracles. You don't have to stoop to conspiracy theories to understand this.
- chii 5y ago
  > can perform infrastructure miracles. Some of the infrastructure has lead to extra economic benefit beyond just the infrastructure stimulus. But other infrastructure might not - and i would call them economic waste (but not political waste). Have a look at the train projects described here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITvXlax4ZXk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITvXlax4ZXk The building of those rail networks is meant to achieve a political purpose, rather than an actual productivity increase. Perhaps their leadership thought it was worth the spend, but this sort of spending would unlikely work in the US imho.
  - lazide 5y ago
    We literally did that with the US highway system, it was just right after WW2. Same goals, same trade offs, same sometimes major wins, sometimes pointless spending.
    - ggm 5y ago
      Rail > Road for freight, and efficiency. America underfunded rail and the Eisenhower highway initiative demanded it, to justify the investment. Chinese new year, more people travel in China than the whole of the USA, homecoming notwithstanding. It's mass transposition, there and back again. They need trains. I've used them shanghai to Beijing, great service. I wish I'd been able to use the maglev in shanghai
      - unmole 5y ago
        China expanded high speed rail that can't be used for freight. It makes perfect sense to connect megalopolises with such a network. But when you start building out to Podunk provincial towns when the passengers can't afford the high prices, they'll continue to take the bus. Meanwhile your shining example for modernity and progress turns into a debt bomb.
        eushebdbsh 5y ago
        >China expanded high speed rail that can't be used for freight. building out passenger rail frees up capacity for freight on old rail :) this is actually a big reason HS2 in bongland is (was) getting built
        unmole 5y ago
        > building out passenger rail frees up capacity for freight on old rail :) Only if the high-speed rail gets used by passengers. If it's unaffordable, people won't use it.
        Symbiote 5y ago
        No, since the previous fast trains aren't run on the old tracks any more. Due to stopping distances etc, you can fit several freight trains in the space needed for one express train.
      - FredPret 5y ago
  - dotancohen 5y ago
    > The building of those rail networks is meant to achieve a political > purpose, rather than an actual productivity increase. Perhaps their leadership thought > it was worth the spend, but this sort of spending would unlikely work in the US imho. You might want to read a bit about the Space Launch System, a well-known political jobs program that many consider a hindrance in advancing the art of space flight. https://www.nasa.gov/exploration/systems/sls/index.html https://www.nasa.gov/exploration/systems/sls/index.html
Retric 5y ago
> demographic time bomb China actually solved the excess men problem problem via ethnic cleansing. Send men to reeducation camps while you import surplus men from another location to eliminate a minority. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_genocide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_genocide It’s even more disturbing when you read up on the details, and consider the elderly aren’t yet a problem.
- ashwagary 5y ago
  >China actually solved the excess men problem problem via ethnic cleansing. How would the US behave if it had Wahhabist extremists near one of its borders? We've only seen how the US responded to some 6000 miles away in Afghanistan, most of them were brutally executed, not deradicalized or reeducated.
  - kortilla 5y ago
    “Here’s an unrelated thing an unrelated country did, therefore it’s okay.”
  - savingsPossible 5y ago
    Are the Ugyurs comparable to Wahhabists? Also, does the US uniformly target Wahhabists ?
    - ashwagary 5y ago
      The Uyghurs being targeted for deradicalization are Wahhabist (an offshoot of Salafism) that have a lot in common with, and in many cases directly trained by, Al Qaeda. Granted, the net may be slightly larger than it needs to be due to China's high population density and the resulting fact that terroristic acts have a high human cost... but it's nowhere near the scale of our (US) net across Afghanistan, Syria, and Pakistan. The vast majority of muslim communities in China have nothing to do with this kind of extremist ideology, don't commit acts of mass terror, and are not part of these deradicalization programs.
      - 5y ago
secondaryacct 5y ago
Yes at all levels, do you want me to tell you what we do to kill a virus ? :D For natality dont just think today, think 50 years ago when the goal was to reduce it: forced abortion, abandonning your newborn at the nearest wet market (high volume of people) was very common. It's harder to force people to copulate, but I trust our overlords to find a way ahah The virus however, I m more of the opinion that to fix SARS we decided to import thousands of vietnamese bats to study or such thing and fucked up one way or another. I dont think it was made to kill old people, it was a crazy large scale risky project to prevent the next SARS - the end justifies the means, but this time the means were very costly to foreigners. We dont care yet, or at least we managed to pretend our costs were still low enough not to execute every single person involved, as one should have done if millions of Chinese had died.
- Robotbeat 5y ago
  China’s ZeroCovid policy worked pretty well, but it’s failing with Omicron. And unfortunately, the nonMRNA domestic vaccines aren’t terribly effective. So it’s possible millions of Chinese people will still die. (I hope not.)
  - secondaryacct 5y ago
    You're right, I think we dont prepare for the worst case. Im in HK and just today our dear leader said nobody could have predicted 2 millions HKers would be contaminated (5000 deaths). Well, let s give her that but then the central gov, surely NOW they can predict 25% of China being contaminated ? How are they preparing ?
misslibby 5y ago
Suppose you are an elite that wants to control the global economy, and you hit upon the idea that a "Great Reset" would be necessary. How do you build a reset button? A "mild" pandemic seems like an interesting approach. Also not saying this was the case at all. However, it is a fact that gain of function research was being conducted, sponsored by the USA. Oh, and if the modern biotech solution fails, WW3 might do the trick the traditional way.
- technobabbler 5y ago
  Man, this shadowy cabal was so good, they started a global pandemic that brought the world economy under its control, made everyone fall in line behind pandemic mandates, shut up all dissent and turned everyone into zombies who now work three times as hard. That's exactly what happened, right?
  - misslibby 5y ago
    It kind of happened? Many countries established new levels of censorship and control. People installed tracking apps and got used to constant surveillance. All sorts of things. But not good enough, hence the need for WW3. Anyway, not saying it was or is a master plan. Just saying that if you were hypothetically thinking about a reset button, a pandemic would be a clever approach, and within technological reach. "The Great Reset" was the official motive of the World Economic Forum. They absolutely do want a reset.
peakaboo 5y ago
[flagged]
- phs318u 5y ago
  I’m sorry but what are you referring to? This seems like a pretty extreme claim. Care to expand?
  - saghm 5y ago
    Yeah, I'm not really sure what they're talking about. If anything, the development of the vaccine for COVID impressed with how quickly we were able to iterate from proof of concepts to actually getting the vaccine distributed and given out. That's not to say that the process was perfect, but overall, I think the end result was much better than I would have predicted if asked hypothetically how long it would take to from the appearance to a new virus until when vaccines were actually administered nationwide to whoever wanted them. Unless that's what GP is saying, that the availability of vaccines for a wider variety of diseases were being artificially suppressed? I'm not sure I'd consider that to be much of a conspiracy theory though. I think it's clear from efforts to squash stuff like polio and smallpox have made it clear that it's practically possible to mass distribute vaccines without gatekeeping based on who can afford it, but in general it would require either an extremely benevolent entity who came up with the vaccine and is willing to forgo profits or some sort of government intervention; I don't think it's really surprising that this doesn't happen more often.

stathibus 5y ago

It should surprise nobody that an authoritarian, centrally planned, and massively resource-rich country can perform infrastructure miracles. You don't have to stoop to conspiracy theories to understand this.

chii 5y ago
> can perform infrastructure miracles. Some of the infrastructure has lead to extra economic benefit beyond just the infrastructure stimulus. But other infrastructure might not - and i would call them economic waste (but not political waste). Have a look at the train projects described here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITvXlax4ZXk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITvXlax4ZXk The building of those rail networks is meant to achieve a political purpose, rather than an actual productivity increase. Perhaps their leadership thought it was worth the spend, but this sort of spending would unlikely work in the US imho.
- lazide 5y ago
  We literally did that with the US highway system, it was just right after WW2. Same goals, same trade offs, same sometimes major wins, sometimes pointless spending.
  - ggm 5y ago
    Rail > Road for freight, and efficiency. America underfunded rail and the Eisenhower highway initiative demanded it, to justify the investment. Chinese new year, more people travel in China than the whole of the USA, homecoming notwithstanding. It's mass transposition, there and back again. They need trains. I've used them shanghai to Beijing, great service. I wish I'd been able to use the maglev in shanghai
    - unmole 5y ago
      China expanded high speed rail that can't be used for freight. It makes perfect sense to connect megalopolises with such a network. But when you start building out to Podunk provincial towns when the passengers can't afford the high prices, they'll continue to take the bus. Meanwhile your shining example for modernity and progress turns into a debt bomb.
      - eushebdbsh 5y ago
        >China expanded high speed rail that can't be used for freight. building out passenger rail frees up capacity for freight on old rail :) this is actually a big reason HS2 in bongland is (was) getting built
        unmole 5y ago
        > building out passenger rail frees up capacity for freight on old rail :) Only if the high-speed rail gets used by passengers. If it's unaffordable, people won't use it.
        Symbiote 5y ago
        No, since the previous fast trains aren't run on the old tracks any more. Due to stopping distances etc, you can fit several freight trains in the space needed for one express train.
    - FredPret 5y ago
- dotancohen 5y ago
  > The building of those rail networks is meant to achieve a political > purpose, rather than an actual productivity increase. Perhaps their leadership thought > it was worth the spend, but this sort of spending would unlikely work in the US imho. You might want to read a bit about the Space Launch System, a well-known political jobs program that many consider a hindrance in advancing the art of space flight. https://www.nasa.gov/exploration/systems/sls/index.html https://www.nasa.gov/exploration/systems/sls/index.html

Retric 5y ago

> demographic time bomb China actually solved the excess men problem problem via ethnic cleansing. Send men to reeducation camps while you import surplus men from another location to eliminate a minority. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_genocide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_genocide It’s even more disturbing when you read up on the details, and consider the elderly aren’t yet a problem.

ashwagary 5y ago
>China actually solved the excess men problem problem via ethnic cleansing. How would the US behave if it had Wahhabist extremists near one of its borders? We've only seen how the US responded to some 6000 miles away in Afghanistan, most of them were brutally executed, not deradicalized or reeducated.
- kortilla 5y ago
  “Here’s an unrelated thing an unrelated country did, therefore it’s okay.”
- savingsPossible 5y ago
  Are the Ugyurs comparable to Wahhabists? Also, does the US uniformly target Wahhabists ?
  - ashwagary 5y ago
    The Uyghurs being targeted for deradicalization are Wahhabist (an offshoot of Salafism) that have a lot in common with, and in many cases directly trained by, Al Qaeda. Granted, the net may be slightly larger than it needs to be due to China's high population density and the resulting fact that terroristic acts have a high human cost... but it's nowhere near the scale of our (US) net across Afghanistan, Syria, and Pakistan. The vast majority of muslim communities in China have nothing to do with this kind of extremist ideology, don't commit acts of mass terror, and are not part of these deradicalization programs.
    - 5y ago

secondaryacct 5y ago

Yes at all levels, do you want me to tell you what we do to kill a virus ? :D For natality dont just think today, think 50 years ago when the goal was to reduce it: forced abortion, abandonning your newborn at the nearest wet market (high volume of people) was very common. It's harder to force people to copulate, but I trust our overlords to find a way ahah The virus however, I m more of the opinion that to fix SARS we decided to import thousands of vietnamese bats to study or such thing and fucked up one way or another. I dont think it was made to kill old people, it was a crazy large scale risky project to prevent the next SARS - the end justifies the means, but this time the means were very costly to foreigners. We dont care yet, or at least we managed to pretend our costs were still low enough not to execute every single person involved, as one should have done if millions of Chinese had died.

Robotbeat 5y ago
China’s ZeroCovid policy worked pretty well, but it’s failing with Omicron. And unfortunately, the nonMRNA domestic vaccines aren’t terribly effective. So it’s possible millions of Chinese people will still die. (I hope not.)
- secondaryacct 5y ago
  You're right, I think we dont prepare for the worst case. Im in HK and just today our dear leader said nobody could have predicted 2 millions HKers would be contaminated (5000 deaths). Well, let s give her that but then the central gov, surely NOW they can predict 25% of China being contaminated ? How are they preparing ?

misslibby 5y ago

Suppose you are an elite that wants to control the global economy, and you hit upon the idea that a "Great Reset" would be necessary. How do you build a reset button? A "mild" pandemic seems like an interesting approach. Also not saying this was the case at all. However, it is a fact that gain of function research was being conducted, sponsored by the USA. Oh, and if the modern biotech solution fails, WW3 might do the trick the traditional way.

technobabbler 5y ago
Man, this shadowy cabal was so good, they started a global pandemic that brought the world economy under its control, made everyone fall in line behind pandemic mandates, shut up all dissent and turned everyone into zombies who now work three times as hard. That's exactly what happened, right?
- misslibby 5y ago
  It kind of happened? Many countries established new levels of censorship and control. People installed tracking apps and got used to constant surveillance. All sorts of things. But not good enough, hence the need for WW3. Anyway, not saying it was or is a master plan. Just saying that if you were hypothetically thinking about a reset button, a pandemic would be a clever approach, and within technological reach. "The Great Reset" was the official motive of the World Economic Forum. They absolutely do want a reset.

peakaboo 5y ago

[flagged]

phs318u 5y ago
I’m sorry but what are you referring to? This seems like a pretty extreme claim. Care to expand?
- saghm 5y ago
  Yeah, I'm not really sure what they're talking about. If anything, the development of the vaccine for COVID impressed with how quickly we were able to iterate from proof of concepts to actually getting the vaccine distributed and given out. That's not to say that the process was perfect, but overall, I think the end result was much better than I would have predicted if asked hypothetically how long it would take to from the appearance to a new virus until when vaccines were actually administered nationwide to whoever wanted them. Unless that's what GP is saying, that the availability of vaccines for a wider variety of diseases were being artificially suppressed? I'm not sure I'd consider that to be much of a conspiracy theory though. I think it's clear from efforts to squash stuff like polio and smallpox have made it clear that it's practically possible to mass distribute vaccines without gatekeeping based on who can afford it, but in general it would require either an extremely benevolent entity who came up with the vaccine and is willing to forgo profits or some sort of government intervention; I don't think it's really surprising that this doesn't happen more often.