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This has always been the best part of FromSoft games. People talk about the difficulty first but I think that absolutely takes a backseat to the visuals. The ar

by ng12 5y ago

This has always been the best part of FromSoft games. People talk about the difficulty first but I think that absolutely takes a backseat to the visuals. The art direction and atmosphere are absolutely unparalleled. I honestly can't think of another game who's world captured me like the first Dark Souls did. There's a quote from an interview with Miyazaki I really likes which underlines how carefully crafted the world is: https://imgur.com/zO6CcDq https://imgur.com/zO6CcDq

anothernewdude 5y ago
The aesthetics remind me of this version of Flammarion: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Flammarion-color.png https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Flammarion-color.png
ab-dm 5y ago
100% I could take or leave the difficulty in FromSoft games, sometimes it honestly gets in the way. What I absolutely love, and what keeps me coming back is the atmosphere and exploration. Recently played the Demons Souls remake and the locations, enemies and atmosphere was just amazing, I couldn't wait to see what was around the corner.
Shadonototra 5y ago
he didn't do shit about the art, the artist did, they are all outsourced from China very shameful to put all the fame on a single person when the work is done by the developers and artists, it's a team work, not the fruit of a single entity very selfish mindset, only japanese get away with that, i don't understand why westerners are this simple minded only to let their industry and home companies rot thanks to "shareholders"
ClumsyPilot 5y ago
When it comes to landscape design, I think Death Stranding is head and shoulders above every game that ever existed - both in visual design and realism. As is appropriate, it is a walking simulator. In Elden ring you often find sudden drops and cliffs, 10 acher lakes that are ancle deep, etc. In Death stranding the rivers have realistic depths and current that pushes on you and knocks you off your feet, mountains are realistic instead of random cliffs that wouldn't hold up to gravity, etc. Interestingly both games are lead by japanese dudes and both are about a calamity that brings the dead back to life. Contrast Dark Soulds and Death Stranding with a typical zombie game, the basic idea is the same, but how imaginatively it is developed!
Trasmatta 5y ago
100%. There are plenty of games that capture the challenge and difficulty of FromSoft's games, but very very few that capture the atmosphere and world building. Their work is very reminiscent of Ico and Shadow of the Colossus in that respect -- and I think that's entirely intentional, as Ico is what inspired Miyazaki to go into game design. Nioh, for example, is a great series that's even more challenging than Souls, and with an even more in depth combat system. But the atmosphere, world building, and level design is just nowhere near FromSoft's level.
- mhitza 5y ago
  I would definitely add Hollow Knight to that list.
k_sze 5y ago
You make me really regret throwing away my Demon’s Souls disc when I was depressed years ago. I now have all of the Dark Souls games and Sekiro, no Elden Ring yet. But having all the games would probably allow me to more fully appreciate the art’s evolution.
- Trasmatta 5y ago
  If you have a decent gaming PC, you can now emulate the original Demon's Souls at 60FPS, which is great. The Demon's Souls Remake is really good too, but if you're primarily interested in looking at the progression of the art, that Remake took things in a somewhat different direction (as it was made by a different team). It's incredibly faithful gameplay wise, though. Be sure to check out Bloodborne as well.
WilTimSon 5y ago
I think a lot of people on forums focus on the difficulty and gameplay aspects because they're easier to have a conversation around. But, as a big fan of the 'series', I've always been in it mostly for the unparalleled aesthetic and atmosphere. Firelink Shrine in and of itself is one of my favorite locations period, because it's like a complete inversion of a typical fantasy game hub - almost dead, surrounded directly on all sides by danger, full of secrets, populated by NPCs that are either gravely depressed or dangerous. It's this strange isle of safety that isn't necessarily welcoming. Also, as I found out in my first playthrough, magic spells sent from that stupid bridge reach Firelink, killing AFK players who triggered the enemy. Ahem... Not that it happened to me.
- wanda 5y ago
  > I think a lot of people on forums focus on the difficulty and gameplay aspects because they're easier to have a conversation around. The key is that there is probably a fairly uniform consensus that the art direction is good, while the topic of game difficulty is a more volatile topic and one where there is more room for debate. And, of course, most forum users cannot brag about how beautiful the game is, but they can implicitly brag about how good they are at the games by disputing the difficulty. Or indeed explicitly brag by affirming the difficulty but making it clear that they did it with their eyes shut. I mean that's what forums are for, right? Peacock feather displays? Personally, I've never really played these games, but from what I've seen they don't look particularly difficult -- provided that you dodge within a certain number of frames, know your enemy before charging in, and avoid trying to play the games as you might approach something with faster-paced combat. The devs say you're supposed to die -- to learn. Not all that difficult then? They're just tailored for a certain type of gamer, like most games.
- dkersten 5y ago
  Bloodborne was my first (I've since played Demon's Souls, Dark Souls trilogy, Sekiro and now Elden Ring too) and the atmosphere is what drew me in. Sure, the gameplay and the challenge kept me playing, but the atmosphere is what made it special. Over time, as I started to unravel more and more of the lore and storylines, that's what really got me addicted, but that took time. The gameplay alone wasn't enough, I almost gave up on the game initially, but the atmosphere and visual aesthetic really stuck with me. I've since bought a bunch of the art books on ebay too since I just love the Souls and Bloodborne visual design so much. Now that I'm heavily mentally invested in their games, I am enthralled by their deep yet vague stories, but I'm constantly impressed by the visual creativity and aesthetic sensibilities. That screenshot in the article is incidentally an area I screenshotted myself just yesterday, although mine was more about the shadowy silhouettes of the statues in the foreground (not really shown in the image in the article).
UncleMeat 5y ago
This is one of those reasons why I wish there was an easy mode. There is great value in the games beyond just the system mastery.
- urthor 5y ago
  You can't appreciate it without system mastery though. How are you really paying attention to the work that was created if you don't learn its systems.
- nyolfen 5y ago
  this is like asking for a dumbed down version of classical literature; the difficulty is an intrinsic part of the experience
  - UncleMeat 5y ago
    We translate novels, despite knowing that translation fundamentally damages the text in major ways. And it is rarely the case where the mechanics of reading a novel are intended to be difficult. Chaucer didn't write with the intention of confusing readers 700 years later. But because of the changing nature of language his writing has larger barriers today than in the past (modulo basic literacy).
    - nyolfen 5y ago
      translation is not the same thing as rewriting it with the 2000 most common words or whatever the literary equivalent of easy mode is. children routinely beat fromsoft games, they are not arbitrary, but it is normal for the game to beat you up before you figure out how to play. the entire tone of the game is set by this experience and you might as well just watch an LP if you want to skip it, but i have sincere contempt for people who want to reduce art to the lowest common denominator. if you don't respect the choices made in its creation why should respect be afforded to your whims?
- kache_ 5y ago
  The difficulty is part of the artform
ascar 5y ago
Posted further down in another comment this seems to be the full interview: https://www.giantbomb.com/profile/7force/blog/dark-souls-design-works-translation-creating-the-w/97235/ https://www.giantbomb.com/profile/7force/blog/dark-souls-des... However, the translation differs a bit (e.g. zombie instead of undead dragon, which actually makes more sense).
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
meowface 5y ago
That's a great quote: >I remember when I was drawing the Undead Dragon, I submitted a design draft that depicted a dragon swarming with maggots and other gross things. Miyazaki handed it back to me saying "This isn't dignified. Don't rely on the gross factor to portray an undead dragon. Can't you instead try to convey the deep sorrow of a magnificent beast doomed to a slow and possibly endless descent into ruin?"
- mariusor 5y ago
  And now we got the God Skin Duo... gulp...
  - ab-dm 5y ago
    Just beat them last night.... it was brutal. If you explore a bit you'll find a site of grace that's directly in front of one of the gates. I also switched to frost damage and it made the fight almost trivial.
    - _1100 5y ago
      You can also use sleep items/magic and fight them one at a time. Also if you never lock on to either of them, they are less aggressive. I love that these games are turning to my old man. “Back in my day you Had to think your way through the problems…”
    - mariusor 5y ago
      I didn't mean in terms of difficulty, but in terms of being "dignified" as a horror image, which was what GP was quoting from Miyazaki. Also I don't mean it as a way to point out some sort of hypocrisy, but that sometimes concessions were made. Horrible, horrible concessions.
- michaelscott 5y ago
  This idea of a fallen-from-grace character is a common motif when it comes to Miyazaki, but it's so effective every time and always adds a dimension to the games' lore. To this day, I think Gehrman in Bloodborne is my favourite boss fight because it's simultaneously a test of everything you've grown into over the course of the game yourself, and also the conclusion of this man's painful, long and tragic existence
sascha_sl 5y ago
That's funny, because Dark Souls 2 make the same mistake. Much more focus on enforcing difficulty, and none of the connectedness of Dark Souls 1, though the nonsensical world also makes thematical sense to some degree (the game is essentially about universal dementia). The Dreg Heap in Dark Souls 3 does deliver on this concept much better though. If you need any indicator the team behind Dark Souls 2 misunderstood Miyazaki's vision, the global death counter in Majula is all you need.
- Shaanie 5y ago
  The interconnected world is solely in Dark Souls 1 though, none of the other souls games (or bloodborne) has it.
- vlunkr 5y ago
  Dark Souls 3 is even less interconnected that Dark Souls 2. And difficulty is hard to measure, but IMO nothing in ds2 is as difficult as the Ringed Cities, and there aren't bosses with 2+ phases. Did Miyazaki misunderstand his own vision when he made ds3?
- ng12 5y ago
  Yeah, I have a strong dislike for DS2. It's not even that bad a game, I would probably enjoy if it didn't have the Dark Souls facade. Dark Souls, Bloodborne, and Sekiro are three of my all time favorites. So far feeling favorable towards Elden Ring but I would still rank it below those three.
Razengan 5y ago
> I honestly can't think of another game who's world captured me like the first Dark Souls did. Check out Darkest Dungeon Slay the Spire Everything by Amanita Design (Machinarium, Samorost)
- thaumasiotes 5y ago
  You're recommending Slay the Spire for the lore? It doesn't even have lore.
  - Razengan 5y ago
    1: Have you played through it? 2: The GP talked about “worlds”
    - thaumasiotes 5y ago
      1. Yes, of course. 2. What are you saying?
      - Razengan 5y ago
        Do you need everything to be verbosely narrated out for you to consider it “lore”? There’s some good worldbuilding and backstory in StS, but you have to play a lot to comb through all the random events etc. to discover it. It won’t sit you on its lap and read to you.
whateveracct 5y ago
Have you played Blasphemous? Definitely inspired by Dark Souls. I think its world is even more entrancing despite it being a hand-drawn pixel art side-scroller. It draws on Spanish folklore and Catholicism, which I really liked. (Don't forget to play it with the Spanish voice acting - superb)
- ng12 5y ago
  Thanks for the rec. I'm only familiar with it because it was referenced in Dead Cells.
gtsnexp 5y ago
What book is he talking about?
- ng12 5y ago
  Most likely the Art Book, they put one out for each game.
x0hm 5y ago
How?? This is insane. Dark Souls is the most absurdly plain and boring looking game that ever somehow defined a genre.

by ng12 5y ago

anothernewdude 5y ago

The aesthetics remind me of this version of Flammarion: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Flammarion-color.png https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Flammarion-color.png

ab-dm 5y ago

100% I could take or leave the difficulty in FromSoft games, sometimes it honestly gets in the way. What I absolutely love, and what keeps me coming back is the atmosphere and exploration. Recently played the Demons Souls remake and the locations, enemies and atmosphere was just amazing, I couldn't wait to see what was around the corner.

Shadonototra 5y ago

he didn't do shit about the art, the artist did, they are all outsourced from China very shameful to put all the fame on a single person when the work is done by the developers and artists, it's a team work, not the fruit of a single entity very selfish mindset, only japanese get away with that, i don't understand why westerners are this simple minded only to let their industry and home companies rot thanks to "shareholders"

ClumsyPilot 5y ago

When it comes to landscape design, I think Death Stranding is head and shoulders above every game that ever existed - both in visual design and realism. As is appropriate, it is a walking simulator. In Elden ring you often find sudden drops and cliffs, 10 acher lakes that are ancle deep, etc. In Death stranding the rivers have realistic depths and current that pushes on you and knocks you off your feet, mountains are realistic instead of random cliffs that wouldn't hold up to gravity, etc. Interestingly both games are lead by japanese dudes and both are about a calamity that brings the dead back to life. Contrast Dark Soulds and Death Stranding with a typical zombie game, the basic idea is the same, but how imaginatively it is developed!

Trasmatta 5y ago

100%. There are plenty of games that capture the challenge and difficulty of FromSoft's games, but very very few that capture the atmosphere and world building. Their work is very reminiscent of Ico and Shadow of the Colossus in that respect -- and I think that's entirely intentional, as Ico is what inspired Miyazaki to go into game design. Nioh, for example, is a great series that's even more challenging than Souls, and with an even more in depth combat system. But the atmosphere, world building, and level design is just nowhere near FromSoft's level.

mhitza 5y ago
I would definitely add Hollow Knight to that list.

k_sze 5y ago

You make me really regret throwing away my Demon’s Souls disc when I was depressed years ago. I now have all of the Dark Souls games and Sekiro, no Elden Ring yet. But having all the games would probably allow me to more fully appreciate the art’s evolution.

Trasmatta 5y ago
If you have a decent gaming PC, you can now emulate the original Demon's Souls at 60FPS, which is great. The Demon's Souls Remake is really good too, but if you're primarily interested in looking at the progression of the art, that Remake took things in a somewhat different direction (as it was made by a different team). It's incredibly faithful gameplay wise, though. Be sure to check out Bloodborne as well.

WilTimSon 5y ago

I think a lot of people on forums focus on the difficulty and gameplay aspects because they're easier to have a conversation around. But, as a big fan of the 'series', I've always been in it mostly for the unparalleled aesthetic and atmosphere. Firelink Shrine in and of itself is one of my favorite locations period, because it's like a complete inversion of a typical fantasy game hub - almost dead, surrounded directly on all sides by danger, full of secrets, populated by NPCs that are either gravely depressed or dangerous. It's this strange isle of safety that isn't necessarily welcoming. Also, as I found out in my first playthrough, magic spells sent from that stupid bridge reach Firelink, killing AFK players who triggered the enemy. Ahem... Not that it happened to me.

wanda 5y ago
> I think a lot of people on forums focus on the difficulty and gameplay aspects because they're easier to have a conversation around. The key is that there is probably a fairly uniform consensus that the art direction is good, while the topic of game difficulty is a more volatile topic and one where there is more room for debate. And, of course, most forum users cannot brag about how beautiful the game is, but they can implicitly brag about how good they are at the games by disputing the difficulty. Or indeed explicitly brag by affirming the difficulty but making it clear that they did it with their eyes shut. I mean that's what forums are for, right? Peacock feather displays? Personally, I've never really played these games, but from what I've seen they don't look particularly difficult -- provided that you dodge within a certain number of frames, know your enemy before charging in, and avoid trying to play the games as you might approach something with faster-paced combat. The devs say you're supposed to die -- to learn. Not all that difficult then? They're just tailored for a certain type of gamer, like most games.
dkersten 5y ago
Bloodborne was my first (I've since played Demon's Souls, Dark Souls trilogy, Sekiro and now Elden Ring too) and the atmosphere is what drew me in. Sure, the gameplay and the challenge kept me playing, but the atmosphere is what made it special. Over time, as I started to unravel more and more of the lore and storylines, that's what really got me addicted, but that took time. The gameplay alone wasn't enough, I almost gave up on the game initially, but the atmosphere and visual aesthetic really stuck with me. I've since bought a bunch of the art books on ebay too since I just love the Souls and Bloodborne visual design so much. Now that I'm heavily mentally invested in their games, I am enthralled by their deep yet vague stories, but I'm constantly impressed by the visual creativity and aesthetic sensibilities. That screenshot in the article is incidentally an area I screenshotted myself just yesterday, although mine was more about the shadowy silhouettes of the statues in the foreground (not really shown in the image in the article).

UncleMeat 5y ago

This is one of those reasons why I wish there was an easy mode. There is great value in the games beyond just the system mastery.

urthor 5y ago
You can't appreciate it without system mastery though. How are you really paying attention to the work that was created if you don't learn its systems.
nyolfen 5y ago
this is like asking for a dumbed down version of classical literature; the difficulty is an intrinsic part of the experience
- UncleMeat 5y ago
  We translate novels, despite knowing that translation fundamentally damages the text in major ways. And it is rarely the case where the mechanics of reading a novel are intended to be difficult. Chaucer didn't write with the intention of confusing readers 700 years later. But because of the changing nature of language his writing has larger barriers today than in the past (modulo basic literacy).
  - nyolfen 5y ago
    translation is not the same thing as rewriting it with the 2000 most common words or whatever the literary equivalent of easy mode is. children routinely beat fromsoft games, they are not arbitrary, but it is normal for the game to beat you up before you figure out how to play. the entire tone of the game is set by this experience and you might as well just watch an LP if you want to skip it, but i have sincere contempt for people who want to reduce art to the lowest common denominator. if you don't respect the choices made in its creation why should respect be afforded to your whims?
kache_ 5y ago
The difficulty is part of the artform

ascar 5y ago

Posted further down in another comment this seems to be the full interview: https://www.giantbomb.com/profile/7force/blog/dark-souls-design-works-translation-creating-the-w/97235/ https://www.giantbomb.com/profile/7force/blog/dark-souls-des... However, the translation differs a bit (e.g. zombie instead of undead dragon, which actually makes more sense).

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

meowface 5y ago

That's a great quote: >I remember when I was drawing the Undead Dragon, I submitted a design draft that depicted a dragon swarming with maggots and other gross things. Miyazaki handed it back to me saying "This isn't dignified. Don't rely on the gross factor to portray an undead dragon. Can't you instead try to convey the deep sorrow of a magnificent beast doomed to a slow and possibly endless descent into ruin?"

mariusor 5y ago
And now we got the God Skin Duo... gulp...
- ab-dm 5y ago
  Just beat them last night.... it was brutal. If you explore a bit you'll find a site of grace that's directly in front of one of the gates. I also switched to frost damage and it made the fight almost trivial.
  - _1100 5y ago
    You can also use sleep items/magic and fight them one at a time. Also if you never lock on to either of them, they are less aggressive. I love that these games are turning to my old man. “Back in my day you Had to think your way through the problems…”
  - mariusor 5y ago
    I didn't mean in terms of difficulty, but in terms of being "dignified" as a horror image, which was what GP was quoting from Miyazaki. Also I don't mean it as a way to point out some sort of hypocrisy, but that sometimes concessions were made. Horrible, horrible concessions.
michaelscott 5y ago
This idea of a fallen-from-grace character is a common motif when it comes to Miyazaki, but it's so effective every time and always adds a dimension to the games' lore. To this day, I think Gehrman in Bloodborne is my favourite boss fight because it's simultaneously a test of everything you've grown into over the course of the game yourself, and also the conclusion of this man's painful, long and tragic existence

sascha_sl 5y ago

That's funny, because Dark Souls 2 make the same mistake. Much more focus on enforcing difficulty, and none of the connectedness of Dark Souls 1, though the nonsensical world also makes thematical sense to some degree (the game is essentially about universal dementia). The Dreg Heap in Dark Souls 3 does deliver on this concept much better though. If you need any indicator the team behind Dark Souls 2 misunderstood Miyazaki's vision, the global death counter in Majula is all you need.

Shaanie 5y ago
The interconnected world is solely in Dark Souls 1 though, none of the other souls games (or bloodborne) has it.
vlunkr 5y ago
Dark Souls 3 is even less interconnected that Dark Souls 2. And difficulty is hard to measure, but IMO nothing in ds2 is as difficult as the Ringed Cities, and there aren't bosses with 2+ phases. Did Miyazaki misunderstand his own vision when he made ds3?
ng12 5y ago
Yeah, I have a strong dislike for DS2. It's not even that bad a game, I would probably enjoy if it didn't have the Dark Souls facade. Dark Souls, Bloodborne, and Sekiro are three of my all time favorites. So far feeling favorable towards Elden Ring but I would still rank it below those three.

Razengan 5y ago

> I honestly can't think of another game who's world captured me like the first Dark Souls did. Check out Darkest Dungeon Slay the Spire Everything by Amanita Design (Machinarium, Samorost)

thaumasiotes 5y ago
You're recommending Slay the Spire for the lore? It doesn't even have lore.
- Razengan 5y ago
  1: Have you played through it? 2: The GP talked about “worlds”
  - thaumasiotes 5y ago
    1. Yes, of course. 2. What are you saying?
    - Razengan 5y ago
      Do you need everything to be verbosely narrated out for you to consider it “lore”? There’s some good worldbuilding and backstory in StS, but you have to play a lot to comb through all the random events etc. to discover it. It won’t sit you on its lap and read to you.

whateveracct 5y ago

Have you played Blasphemous? Definitely inspired by Dark Souls. I think its world is even more entrancing despite it being a hand-drawn pixel art side-scroller. It draws on Spanish folklore and Catholicism, which I really liked. (Don't forget to play it with the Spanish voice acting - superb)

ng12 5y ago
Thanks for the rec. I'm only familiar with it because it was referenced in Dead Cells.

gtsnexp 5y ago

What book is he talking about?

ng12 5y ago
Most likely the Art Book, they put one out for each game.

x0hm 5y ago

How?? This is insane. Dark Souls is the most absurdly plain and boring looking game that ever somehow defined a genre.