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The FTC’s new enforcement weapon: “Algorithmic destruction”
- scotuswroteus 5y agoThis headline is, as they say, greatly exaggerated. Algorithms have an age old anti-enforcement weapon, called the white shoe law firm. https://www.debevoise.com/insights/publications/2020/10/third-circuit-strikes-another-blow-against https://www.debevoise.com/insights/publications/2020/10/thir...
- qchris 5y agoI don't understand your point here. Are you simply saying that companies can prevent this by...hiring an expensive lawyer? That seems like sort of a strawman argument; hiring a "white shoe law firm" doesn't make an FTC action go away. Companies could hire one of those anyway, but now if the firms fail to win their case (which does in fact happen) the FTC has much sharper teeth which with to move forward. The risk profile for companies engaging in data malpractice goes significantly up. Outside of that, the headline seems very accurate--algorithmic disgorgement is a very new approach (the Everalbum ruling was in early 2021), and with the Kurbo ruling, one it appears is going to be much more common moving forward. The whole area of regulating algorithmic use is pretty novel--the whole field is basically so new that agencies are still figuring out the way to go about.
- scotuswroteus 5y agoNo way -- the FTC self-polices because of fear of losing a case. And precedent deters the FTC -- one borderline enforcement action that gets overturned either by a lower court or an appeal court spells a complete disaster for their leadership. That's why a single tech company with an effective legal strategy and deep pockets can upend whatever enhanced enforcement capacity this new "weapon" poses.
- more_corn 5y ago
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- exabrial 5y agoIt would be really nice to have companies destroy algorithms based on knowledge obtained illegally (pretty much all of Facebook and Google). I just don't see it happening anytime soon.
- Arainach 5y agoWhat evidence do you have for these claims? What knowledge do you believe was obtained illegally?
- qchris 5y agoFacebook was forced to pay $650 million in 2021 for violating Illinois' Biometric Information Privacy Act[1]. That's not necessarily grounds for a federal regulatory action, but if something like this happens in the future the does violate federal law (in the article, this was caused by not paying sufficient attention to COPPA), it could mean Facebook has to delete/re-do quite a bit of work in addition to purely monetary damages. [1] https://techcrunch.com/2021/03/01/facebook-illinois-class-action-bipa/ https://techcrunch.com/2021/03/01/facebook-illinois-class-ac...
- Arainach 5y agoThat's a great example. I can say that for a very long time (at least 5 years, probably more but I wasn't there to know for sure) Google has had explicit policies and training for all employees about not sharing data across projects without explicit user consent for this and many other reasons.
- IAmEveryone 5y agoAs the article notes, the policy has been used, including against Facebook's partner Cambridge Analytica. So I cannot say that it will be "happening soon", but it is certain to "have happened already".
- sidewndr46 5y agoHow could the FTC require algorithmic destruction? How do you prove you destroyed something? Would you have to lobotomize everyone who had worked on building it?
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- lallysingh 5y agoI think the trained model. I don't think people will remember all the coefficients.
- sidewndr46 5y agoRight, but if the government says I have to turn over some nuts and bolts that I got through some illegal action I can just give them the location of my warehouse. Then the rightful owner can come pick them up with a government agent inspecting the process. If I have a bunch of drugs or chemicals I shouldn't have, I can give them the addresses and they can have government agents watch the destruction. If I have an algorithm (that is just a bunch of computer files) how do I prove I destroyed it? Do they literally just watch someone run "rm banned_model.bin" and then decide it's gone? It's basically impossible to prove you don't have a copy of something. There could always be a backup at another location. There could always be an encrypted copy stored somewhere that is impossible to detect. Any moderately well company has a service contract with a backup provider that acts an option of a last resort for restoring lost data. How do you get that provider to destroy their copy?
- colejohnson66 5y agoYou're right; There's not any way to prove it's gone completely. But in the real world, these hypotheticals can be handled through increasing fines and possible jailtime for contempt of court.
- defen 5y agoIn general, law is ok with good-faith mistakes if you obey the spirit of the law. If you forgot about an off-site backup but then deleted it when you found out about it, I doubt you'd get in much trouble. If you deliberately used a technological mechanism to evade a court order, you'd probably be in for a world of hurt if you got caught, but that's fundamentally no different than committing any other crime and hoping you don't get caught.
- robbrown451 5y agoConfusing headline, it seems to imply that all algorithms are going to die, like we'll just stop using algorithms. Obviously that doesn't make sense, but that is what it sounds like. I also question whether we are talking about algorithms, or the data set they are working with or the model created from that. I can forgive confusing an algorithm with its implementation (e.g. the source code), but this goes beyond that.
- IAmEveryone 5y agoA trained model, which is obviously the subject here, is an algorithm.
- robbrown451 5y agoI generally wouldn't define algorithm as such, although I can see where the lines between them can become blurry.
- kaibee 5y ago> I generally wouldn't define algorithm as such, although I can see where the lines between them can become blurry. Its pretty clear cut tbh. An algorithm is a set of steps to follow to produce some output. A trained model is, 'hey do these matrix multiplications with these coefficients to get an output'. The fact that the exact coefficients were arrived at via backprop, doesn't make it not an algorithm.
- The_rationalist 5y agoOh yes so chromium and minecraft are algorithms now. What a useful definition we have here.. Obviously colloquially when people says algorithm, it is an implicature that they mean a hard computing (not soft) serie of steps that achieve a specific goal. In other words, a statistical algorithm does not point to the same category as a deterministic algorithm and an algorithm refer to the later class by default.
- NoraCodes 5y agoCan we please, please, please stop calling statistical regressions "algorithms"? This is getting out of hand.
- IAmEveryone 5y agoA trained model is a set of rules to go from, for example, an image to a tag identifying the object it shows. That's an algorithm. It is not "statistical regression", even if that is the method that was used in its creation. The whole its-just-statistics-shtick is what's getting out of hand. People are just mindlessly repeating the point because it seemed smart when it was first made. Hint: it no longer does, especially if you use it wrong.
- melony 5y agoBy that logic, most of mathematics are "algorithms" because they map one space to another. That is absolute nonsense. An algorithm is a sequence of steps, an implementation. A trained model is only an algorithm in the most generous interpretation of the term. You cannot discount the underlying mathematics of it, not matter how unscrutable it may be. A distribution implemented in Python doesn't magically become any less statistical just because it is executed on a CPU.
- feoren 5y ago1. Multiply your input number by 7 2. Add three 3. Square the result 4. Take this result as your final number There's an algorithm for f(x) = (7x + 3)^2. Similarly, any map from one space to another is an algorithm if it's describable on paper. Every mathematical proof is analogous to an algorithm in important ways. Math is not "equal to" algorithms, in the sense that two different algorithms can describe the same underlying math, but every description of any math essentially has to be an algorithm. The only parts of math that would not fit would be anything non-constructible, but we know we are limited to exploring and describing only 0% of that world since our descriptions (algorithms) are countably infinite, and there are constructivists who believe non-constructible things don't exist in any meaningful sense. So, yes, most (or all) of the practice of mathematics is algorithms. Why are we trying to gatekeep this word?
- tomc1985 5y agoGood, I hope they tear through this data-mining-gold-rush and set us back 1000 years, and I hope all the wantrepreneurs trying to exploit all of us with this data bullshit end up homeless and poor. I am not a data point, I do not want to be a data point, and I do not want products and services to interact with me as if I was. We humans are superior at curation, discovery, and anticipating our needs. Not AI.
- andreilys 5y agoWe humans are superior at curation, discovery, and anticipating our needs. Depends, I would prefer reco Algos be open source and I can plug in different ones. Trying to make sense of the mass of data without a personalized recommendation engine is a fools errand.
- tenebrisalietum 5y agoall we need is grep for audio and video and I'm good.
- prometheus76 5y agoRelated: there are a few channels on youtube that I archive locally, and I always grab the subtitles when I do. I throw them all into a database that I can run queries against if I'm trying to remember which video something was said in. It's not a direct grep of the video, but pretty close!
- hi_im_miles 5y agoWe basically need a curation protocol.
- yummypaint 5y agoThis is the field of library science
- cryptonector 5y ago
- jka 5y agoUnless there's problematic material within the algorithms/models -- and there could be, in some cases -- I get the feeling that, longer-term, algorithmic transparency would be far more effective. It would help demonstrate what biases were introduced, the systems and processes that permitted/encouraged those to exist, and it would help prevent repeats of similar mistakes in future. (it seems fair for the FTC to also be able to order companies to stop using a particular category of algorithms; that doesn't require or imply deletion, though)
- IYasha 5y agoWhat I fear is law-enforced backdoors that could literally destroy everything - programs, code, data... Just imagining this dystopian concept brings me shivers. You didn't pay taxes? Data deletion.
- victor9000 5y agoI was recently looking for dimmable string lights, and everything I found online required installing an app to work the lights. In what universe is installing a shitty app more convenient for the user than turning a dial? It seems like more and more products are being converted into data harvesting channels, regardless of their intended purpose.
- alar44 5y agoBecause app has a shitload more functions than a dial. I can program my strips to do all kinds of cool stuff. I mean, what data is going to get extracted? Your favorite color? The app that came with mine is great and I can work the controls remotely. Might be the wrong forum to be complaining that an app is too hard for you.
- _vertigo 5y ago> Might be the wrong forum to be complaining that an app is too hard for you. You're misconstruing the objection here. No one thinks an app is too hard. The problem I don't want my email to end up in some database because I wanted to dim my lights. I imagine it would also be able to collect info on what bluetooth devices I have in my kitchen, etc.
- pickledcods 5y agoHave you checked the trackers and data loggers build into that app that directly or indirectly call home when you interact with your lights? I have an aquarium and I use a water quality tester when I suspect something is wrong. Before it was a colour stripe you have to compare with a reference printed on a package. Now it uses a camera and matches the color better for a better analysis. However, that app calls home directly to JBL, so they are building a profile on how I abuse my fish because every time it logs, it logs a bad situation. It also leaks the usage to jquery, google and crashlytics without notifying me or asking my consent.
- rablackburn 5y ago> It also leaks the usage to jquery, … This is the first time I’ve read someone refer to loading jquery as a data leak. Ideally they shouldn’t be using jquery, or just shipping it with the app/self-hosting. But for the general case, are you saying your ideal would be an app prompting you for permission before it loaded any external resource from any url? Even one as ubiquitous as jquery? How is the fact that your IP address requested a copy of jquery, one of the most downloaded JavaScript libraries of all time, any kind of meaningful signal? I’d be more worried about it as an attack vector than a privacy infringement.
- amelius 5y ago> Algorithmic destruction I don't understand this label. Isn't this more about discovering how data is (ab)used by companies (what watchdogs are supposed to do), and less about destroying things with algorithms?
- mftb 5y agoIt explains in the first few paragraphs of the linked articled what they're trying to convey. "...destroy the algorithms or AI models it built using personal information collected through its Kurbo healthy eating app from kids as young as 8 without parental permission." and "..forcing them to delete algorithmic systems built with ill-gotten data could become a more routine approach, one that modernizes FTC enforcement to directly affect how companies do business." Those quotes are from the first 3 paragraphs.
- winternett 5y agoThe fine (around 1 million) is a total joke though. These companies make billions off of harvesting data. They need to be shuttered entirely if they are found to be violating privacy rights. The data they have gathered, and even possibly shared with allies also needs to be traced and deleted as well before I'd believe this isn't just fluffy optics. These companies also regularly risk breaches of that data, which can be very very harmful when it lands in the wrong hands... It's really far beyond a time when serious moves should have been taken to eliminate this kind of behavior, and frankly I can't see any future where we can trust any company with any accurate information about us. I've even got into the habit of filling inaccurate info into (non vital) data forms for companies that don't need to know my personal information. We also have power to fight the private data gorge they drive... By creating incorrect location tags, using pseudonyms and improper spellings on our names, by opting out of tracking and using additional personal privacy tools, not buying devices that serve tracking, and most of all, by not enrolling with or supporting companies that harvest personally identifiable information. Facebook IS NOT a government entity, they never had the authority to make everyone switch over to their real names... In order to protect our personal privacy, we need to wake up and start asserting our rights on our own, because consumer protection has been sleeping at the wheel, and even coddling these corrupt and deeply irresponsible private companies & industry control freak CEOs for way too long. Hold these companies accountable and legislate the end of this cycle of personal data abuse or it will get far far worse with every update.