7 ms·

That reminds me of COINTELPRO, and how the FBI tried to get MLK to commit suicide by sending him a harassing black mailing letter. It's amazing how states parti

That reminds me of COINTELPRO, and how the FBI tried to get MLK to commit suicide by sending him a harassing black mailing letter. It's amazing how states particularly when they have apparatuses that can go rouge or are even actually encouraged by the government like the Stasi were go to ridiculous lengths to harass people they find politically inconvenient.

mistrial9 5y ago
that is true, but that was more than fifty years ago..
- exhilaration 5y ago
  This was posted yesterday in one of the comments on HN if you want a better idea of what the FBI does these days: https://casetext.com/analysis/how-to-spot-the-informant-at-your-local-mosque https://casetext.com/analysis/how-to-spot-the-informant-at-y...
- skrtskrt 5y ago
  I'm sure they've cleaned up their act by now! Surely they aren't during stuff like that, and "thwarting" "terrorist plots" where the "conspirators" are FBI assets themselves
  - bpiche 5y ago
    what are you referring to? the Boston bombing?
    - evan_ 5y ago
      https://theintercept.com/2017/09/03/the-fbi-pressured-a-lonely-young-man-into-a-bomb-plot-he-tried-to-back-out-now-hes-serving-life-in-prison/ https://theintercept.com/2017/09/03/the-fbi-pressured-a-lone... https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/15/magazine/fbi-international-terrorism-informants.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/15/magazine/fbi-internationa... impossible to know how many such stories there are
- wand3r 5y ago
  I had this same thought but then I caught myself. Human nature doesn’t change that much. This basically happened at the corporate level at eBay in the last 12 months right? So factually if you are just saying it was a long time ago, then yes, that’s correct. However, I think it can and does still happen and humans from 50 years ago aren’t much different. In fact, some are even literally the same humans but just older…
  - adolph 5y ago
    It is such a weird story: BOSTON – Six former employees of eBay, Inc. have been charged with leading a cyberstalking campaign targeting the editor and publisher of a newsletter that eBay executives viewed as critical of the company. The alleged harassment included sending the couple anonymous, threatening messages, disturbing deliveries – including a box of live cockroaches, a funeral wreath and a bloody pig mask – and conducting covert surveillance of the victims. https://www.justice.gov/usao-ma/pr/six-former-ebay-employees-charged-aggressive-cyberstalking-campaign-targeting-natick https://www.justice.gov/usao-ma/pr/six-former-ebay-employees...
- evan_ 5y ago
  That means the people in charge now were trained by the people doing that stuff 50 years ago
  - ModernMech 5y ago
    Some of the people in charge today were also in power 50 years ago: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuck_Grassley https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuck_Grassley I have no idea if Chuck Grassley had anything to do with that, but my point is that if the same people in Congress then are still in Congress today, you can't claim a clean break from the past due to the passage of time.
- jonesnc 5y ago
  If they were able to do it without any repercussions or consequences, why would they ever stop doing it?
- staticassertion 5y ago
  The problem with learning about things with a ~multi-decade delay (via FOIA etc) is that everything sounds so long ago, in a different time. But there's not a ton of reason to believe that things have changed so fundamentally.
  - psyc 5y ago
    I can think of one powerfully compelling reason: wishful thinking.
- spacemanmatt 5y ago
  They definitely still do this.
- freeflight 5y ago
  > Anonymous discovered that HBGary was conspiring with a law/lobbying firm known as Hunton and Williams to launch a highly sophisticated campaign to subvert and sabotage the enemies of their clients. In some cases these plans involved illegal actions. The targets were journalists, labor unions, and political opponents. > One client was Bank of America, who hired Hunton and Williams to launch a campaign against Wikileaks. At some point the list of targets was expanded to various other supporters of Wikileaks such as journalist Glenn Greenwald. The other client so far revealed was the Chamber of Commerce, which wished to target labor unions and a shockingly long list of their supporters. > The main tool of attack would be the use of the Palantir technology to analyze the network of support for the targets. Source: https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2011/02/13/943139/-HBGary:-Dont-let-this-story-die,-its-big- https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2011/02/13/943139/-HBGary:-... The House Armed Services Subcommittee on Emerging Threats and Capabilities never properly followed up on that incident. In 2011 it asked the DoD and NSA to provide any contracts with HBGary, Palantir and Berico, but as far as I can tell that never ended up happening, the whole thing was just buried over time and forgotten.
  - astrange 5y ago
    This implies Palantir has "technology", which I'm sure they would like you to think, but what they actually do is sell SQL queries as a service.
    - picsao 5y ago
    - HWR_14 5y ago
      Don't they have proprietary databases to query? Or can I download their data and do my own analysis?
- ClumsyPilot 5y ago
  Sure FBI/CIA/NSA did nasty things in tbhe 40's/50s/60s/70s/80s/80s, but now it's totally different!
  - sgjohnson 5y ago
    and the 90s (Contras) and 00s/10s (https://www.theguardian.com/law/2022/mar/14/cia-black-site-detainee-training-prop-torture-techniques https://www.theguardian.com/law/2022/mar/14/cia-black-site-d...) But they SURELY have changed in 2020s!
  - 908B64B197 5y ago
    I got the same speech when suggesting some of the "dangerous white supremacist (who were never arrested nor identified)" at the Canadian truck rallies might have been feds in disguised. How weird.
- noobermin 5y ago
  The stasi story was also ~30 years ago too. The point isn't a story of who's bad more than it is a story of unchecked political power. That was my point, not a "we do it too so TFA isn't bad." No, it's bad when any state does it. I think one difference is we did have the Church commission so at least there is some amount of accountability although it could have been better whilst in PRC there will be no such inquiry into these sorts of things.
throwaway0a5e 5y ago
My favorite is the time the FBI sent a bunch of fake correspondence making it seem like a bunch of prominent civil rights leaders were cheating on their spouses and was very confused when nothing came of it because said spouses already assumed they were and didn't care.
- cjbgkagh 5y ago
  My fav story along those lines is the KGB trying to blackmail Sukarno with videotape of dalliances with prostitutes. He asked for copies to show his friends.
  - actionfromafar 5y ago
    My favourite thing about that story is that it was on film reels, not videotape.
freeflight 5y ago
FBI COINTELPRO [0] and CIA Operation CHAOS [1] did way more than just sending some harassing mail to MLK [2] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_CHAOS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_CHAOS [2] https://openyls.law.yale.edu/bitstream/handle/20.500.13051/7728/08_2YaleJL_Lib35_1991_.pdf?sequence=2&isAllowed=y https://openyls.law.yale.edu/bitstream/handle/20.500.13051/7...
- colpabar 5y ago
  It's important to remember that this was in the past. The FBI, as well as every other three-letter-agency, are the good guys now, and they are totally ashamed of doing those things. They're definitely not doing anything like that anymore!
  - bleuchase 5y ago
    Like the old saying goes, a leopard can change its spots.
  - armenarmen 5y ago
    it always is a comfort to know that the alphabet boys did bad things in the 1950's, 1960's, 1970's, 1980's, 1990's, 2000's but are actually totally chill now
    - astrange 5y ago
      Although leftists already seem to think the CIA started the Iraq War, when they were against it and Cheney/Rumsfeld had to invent ways to get all the intelligence agencies out of the picture so they could make something up in peace. Similarly, they didn't overthrow Bolivia recently, but people think Elon did it personally to get cheaper lithium because he joked about it on Twitter once.
  - astrange 5y ago
    If they were they wouldn't be able to cover it up. I mean, we know when they do it - nearly every domestic terrorist bombing/kidnapping attempt ends up being a group of one guy and 4 FBI informers as soon as the one guy asks how to make a bomb on Facebook.
StopDarkPattern 5y ago
traditional CCP USA what-about-isms
- smnrchrds 5y ago
  What-about-ism: What you are saying is wrong because your side does it too Not what-about-ism: You are right! And here is another example in support of your point!
- tomjakubowski 5y ago
  no. closer to the traditional improv "yes and". both examples bolster OP's point
- armenarmen 5y ago
  what-about-isms often bother me too. That said any commenter that excuses the CCP because of US dalliances is way off base. I'd say that there is some value to pointing out that unelected agencies both domestic and foreign do this stuff to US citizens.

mistrial9 5y ago

that is true, but that was more than fifty years ago..

exhilaration 5y ago
This was posted yesterday in one of the comments on HN if you want a better idea of what the FBI does these days: https://casetext.com/analysis/how-to-spot-the-informant-at-your-local-mosque https://casetext.com/analysis/how-to-spot-the-informant-at-y...
skrtskrt 5y ago
I'm sure they've cleaned up their act by now! Surely they aren't during stuff like that, and "thwarting" "terrorist plots" where the "conspirators" are FBI assets themselves
- bpiche 5y ago
  what are you referring to? the Boston bombing?
  - evan_ 5y ago
    https://theintercept.com/2017/09/03/the-fbi-pressured-a-lonely-young-man-into-a-bomb-plot-he-tried-to-back-out-now-hes-serving-life-in-prison/ https://theintercept.com/2017/09/03/the-fbi-pressured-a-lone... https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/15/magazine/fbi-international-terrorism-informants.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/15/magazine/fbi-internationa... impossible to know how many such stories there are
wand3r 5y ago
I had this same thought but then I caught myself. Human nature doesn’t change that much. This basically happened at the corporate level at eBay in the last 12 months right? So factually if you are just saying it was a long time ago, then yes, that’s correct. However, I think it can and does still happen and humans from 50 years ago aren’t much different. In fact, some are even literally the same humans but just older…
- adolph 5y ago
  It is such a weird story: BOSTON – Six former employees of eBay, Inc. have been charged with leading a cyberstalking campaign targeting the editor and publisher of a newsletter that eBay executives viewed as critical of the company. The alleged harassment included sending the couple anonymous, threatening messages, disturbing deliveries – including a box of live cockroaches, a funeral wreath and a bloody pig mask – and conducting covert surveillance of the victims. https://www.justice.gov/usao-ma/pr/six-former-ebay-employees-charged-aggressive-cyberstalking-campaign-targeting-natick https://www.justice.gov/usao-ma/pr/six-former-ebay-employees...
evan_ 5y ago
That means the people in charge now were trained by the people doing that stuff 50 years ago
- ModernMech 5y ago
  Some of the people in charge today were also in power 50 years ago: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuck_Grassley https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuck_Grassley I have no idea if Chuck Grassley had anything to do with that, but my point is that if the same people in Congress then are still in Congress today, you can't claim a clean break from the past due to the passage of time.
jonesnc 5y ago
If they were able to do it without any repercussions or consequences, why would they ever stop doing it?
staticassertion 5y ago
The problem with learning about things with a ~multi-decade delay (via FOIA etc) is that everything sounds so long ago, in a different time. But there's not a ton of reason to believe that things have changed so fundamentally.
- psyc 5y ago
  I can think of one powerfully compelling reason: wishful thinking.
spacemanmatt 5y ago
They definitely still do this.
freeflight 5y ago
> Anonymous discovered that HBGary was conspiring with a law/lobbying firm known as Hunton and Williams to launch a highly sophisticated campaign to subvert and sabotage the enemies of their clients. In some cases these plans involved illegal actions. The targets were journalists, labor unions, and political opponents. > One client was Bank of America, who hired Hunton and Williams to launch a campaign against Wikileaks. At some point the list of targets was expanded to various other supporters of Wikileaks such as journalist Glenn Greenwald. The other client so far revealed was the Chamber of Commerce, which wished to target labor unions and a shockingly long list of their supporters. > The main tool of attack would be the use of the Palantir technology to analyze the network of support for the targets. Source: https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2011/02/13/943139/-HBGary:-Dont-let-this-story-die,-its-big- https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2011/02/13/943139/-HBGary:-... The House Armed Services Subcommittee on Emerging Threats and Capabilities never properly followed up on that incident. In 2011 it asked the DoD and NSA to provide any contracts with HBGary, Palantir and Berico, but as far as I can tell that never ended up happening, the whole thing was just buried over time and forgotten.
- astrange 5y ago
  This implies Palantir has "technology", which I'm sure they would like you to think, but what they actually do is sell SQL queries as a service.
  - picsao 5y ago
  - HWR_14 5y ago
    Don't they have proprietary databases to query? Or can I download their data and do my own analysis?
ClumsyPilot 5y ago
Sure FBI/CIA/NSA did nasty things in tbhe 40's/50s/60s/70s/80s/80s, but now it's totally different!
- sgjohnson 5y ago
  and the 90s (Contras) and 00s/10s (https://www.theguardian.com/law/2022/mar/14/cia-black-site-detainee-training-prop-torture-techniques https://www.theguardian.com/law/2022/mar/14/cia-black-site-d...) But they SURELY have changed in 2020s!
- 908B64B197 5y ago
  I got the same speech when suggesting some of the "dangerous white supremacist (who were never arrested nor identified)" at the Canadian truck rallies might have been feds in disguised. How weird.
noobermin 5y ago
The stasi story was also ~30 years ago too. The point isn't a story of who's bad more than it is a story of unchecked political power. That was my point, not a "we do it too so TFA isn't bad." No, it's bad when any state does it. I think one difference is we did have the Church commission so at least there is some amount of accountability although it could have been better whilst in PRC there will be no such inquiry into these sorts of things.

throwaway0a5e 5y ago

My favorite is the time the FBI sent a bunch of fake correspondence making it seem like a bunch of prominent civil rights leaders were cheating on their spouses and was very confused when nothing came of it because said spouses already assumed they were and didn't care.

cjbgkagh 5y ago
My fav story along those lines is the KGB trying to blackmail Sukarno with videotape of dalliances with prostitutes. He asked for copies to show his friends.
- actionfromafar 5y ago
  My favourite thing about that story is that it was on film reels, not videotape.

freeflight 5y ago

FBI COINTELPRO [0] and CIA Operation CHAOS [1] did way more than just sending some harassing mail to MLK [2] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_CHAOS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_CHAOS [2] https://openyls.law.yale.edu/bitstream/handle/20.500.13051/7728/08_2YaleJL_Lib35_1991_.pdf?sequence=2&isAllowed=y https://openyls.law.yale.edu/bitstream/handle/20.500.13051/7...

colpabar 5y ago
It's important to remember that this was in the past. The FBI, as well as every other three-letter-agency, are the good guys now, and they are totally ashamed of doing those things. They're definitely not doing anything like that anymore!
- bleuchase 5y ago
  Like the old saying goes, a leopard can change its spots.
- armenarmen 5y ago
  it always is a comfort to know that the alphabet boys did bad things in the 1950's, 1960's, 1970's, 1980's, 1990's, 2000's but are actually totally chill now
  - astrange 5y ago
    Although leftists already seem to think the CIA started the Iraq War, when they were against it and Cheney/Rumsfeld had to invent ways to get all the intelligence agencies out of the picture so they could make something up in peace. Similarly, they didn't overthrow Bolivia recently, but people think Elon did it personally to get cheaper lithium because he joked about it on Twitter once.
- astrange 5y ago
  If they were they wouldn't be able to cover it up. I mean, we know when they do it - nearly every domestic terrorist bombing/kidnapping attempt ends up being a group of one guy and 4 FBI informers as soon as the one guy asks how to make a bomb on Facebook.

StopDarkPattern 5y ago

traditional CCP USA what-about-isms

smnrchrds 5y ago
What-about-ism: What you are saying is wrong because your side does it too Not what-about-ism: You are right! And here is another example in support of your point!
tomjakubowski 5y ago
no. closer to the traditional improv "yes and". both examples bolster OP's point
armenarmen 5y ago
what-about-isms often bother me too. That said any commenter that excuses the CCP because of US dalliances is way off base. I'd say that there is some value to pointing out that unelected agencies both domestic and foreign do this stuff to US citizens.