20 ms·

I'd kill for a peek into the parallel universe where it was permanent standard time that was likely to get adopted and see how much effort went into researching

I'd kill for a peek into the parallel universe where it was permanent standard time that was likely to get adopted and see how much effort went into researching the ill effects of that choice to convince people with enough FUD to keep daylight time switching going. Here's the thing: If you're a proponent of permanent standard time, you should be in favour of turning off the switching no matter what. Even if it means daylight time. Because you know what? Your local time zone is changeable. You can lobby to change it. If permanent DST really results in the entire country turning into sleep deprived zombies having spontaneous heart attacks as they arrive at work and crashing into children going to school, then there'll be pressure to change it -- but we will have at least already started the process of eliminating the worse thing: changing twice a year.

Arubis 5y ago
Agreed. The posted decision (permanently DST) is stupid, but less stupid than switching.
- moffkalast 5y ago
  I feel like the permanent DST option is a bit stupid in principle since as the other guy says it's about switching time zones and time zones should be primarily longitude based, not I-feel-like-being-in-whatever based because that's nonsense. As an example France and Spain have no business being in CET/GMT+1 at all. France is geographically entirely in GMT, while some of Spain is in GMT-1 even, I mean what the actual fuck. Time zones should be based on science, and work/school schedules should be flexible enough that people can decide on a company/institutional level when to start. If you want to start later, start later, don't fuck with the countrywide clock and make timekeeping a nightmare you goddamn idiots.
  - chias 5y ago
    Timezones are based on who you do business with, and who you primarily need to coordinate with. Timezones aren't inherently anything, they're purely a measure that humans use to make our lives more convenient. If you want to argue hard science, you'll have an uphill job of explaining to me why there should be 24 timezones and not 1440 of them. With that in mind, picture how annoying it would be if you crossed a timezone line on your way to your (or your child's) school. Picture how annoying it would be if half the restaurants, shops, and businesses in your town were in one timezone, and the other half were in another. These issues are what timezones address, just on a governmental level. Timezones don't try to be "correct", they try to be useful.
    - chimeracoder 5y ago
      > Timezones don't try to be "correct", they try to be useful This is correct. As engineers we can design the most symmetric and "perfect" system, but at the end of the day, if it's not useful, people will just adopt something else instead. > If you want to argue hard science, you'll have an uphill job of explaining to me why there should be 24 timezones and not 1440 of them. There's a good argument against having too many time zones (this article is about continuous timezones, but the arguments are still applicable) https://qntm.org/continuous https://qntm.org/continuous
    - moffkalast 5y ago
      > and not 1440 of them Well actually there are 96 of them in practice, I think it's tracked in increments of 15 minutes since anything less is a bit meaningless. Of course in reality it's continuous so there are infinite timezones, but the only practical thing we can change are hours so minutes don't get offset and make planning even more of a nightmare. If we used a more sensible base 10 time keeping one could probably do more. > picture how annoying it would be if you crossed a timezone line on your way to your (or your child's) school I'm pretty sure this happens in the US to people on a daily basis? It's the unfortunate reality of living on a rotating sphere that you really can't avoid if you cross country/state lines often. > they try to be useful I don't see how it's useful to keep west Spain 2 hours late to their actual sunrise time. It must be rather maddening.
      - mynameisvlad 5y ago
        > Well actually there are 96 of them in practice, I think it's tracked in increments of 15 minutes since anything less is a bit meaningless. I don't think most of those exist, actually. If nobody is observing (for example) +6:45, I wouldn't count it as an actual time zone. Even :30 tzs are fairly rare, I think the number of :15/45 is counted on one hand.
        moffkalast 5y ago
        Nepal uses a 15 min offset I think, but I wouldn't expect anyone to really use that in a practical fashion. I'd expect it to be used in say astronomical observations, where this sort of thing actually matters and isn't treated as made up or subject to stupid opinions. Or other kinds of calculations that need the sun's position to match more accurately.
  - nomdep 5y ago
    Spain is in GMT+1 because Franco wanted to be in the same time zone as Nazi Germany https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/12/14/fascism-helped-create-a-time-zone-oddity-in-spain-70-years-later-it-may-finally-be-undone/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/12/14...
    - moffkalast 5y ago
      Ah another one to add to the pile of things made by nazis that are still in use, along with the olympic torch relay and Fanta.
      - elpakal 5y ago
        Pretty small pile lol. Anything else on there?
        PeterisP 5y ago
        Jerry cans come to mind, it seems that almost everyone around the world is using the Wehrmacht design.
  - frereubu 5y ago
    > France and Spain have no business being in CET/GMT+1 at all Technically of course you're correct (and you'd probably need to include the Netherlands, Belgium and Luxembourg in there), but thousands of people drive across those borders every day. Clearly the timezones need to have borders somewhere, but it's probably easier in practical terms to keep the timezones of adjacent countries synchronised wherever possible. It also makes sense of the very late-night culture of Spain when compared to countries further east, because they're probably eating around the same solar time as the other countries. The one I find weirdest is the western hold-out Portugal.
    - moffkalast 5y ago
      Portugal is always the exception :)
  - rob74 5y ago
    Tell that to China, who should have at least 3 time zones, but have only one - and that's not even "centered", it's Beijing time, which is pretty far east. But yeah, for the people in Tibet and Xinjiang, living in the completely wrong time zone is the least of their worries...
  - asiachick 5y ago
    One requires one entity, the US government, to make a decision. The other requires millions of entities to make a decision. For this case, the government making the decision makes more sense IMO. Every restaurant, coffee-shop, supermarket etc, doesn't have to do anything (they're already on DST). Everything is already happening. Deliveries are already scheduled for opening hours etc... Your suggested way would require millions of not billions of little coordinations. That said, every old non-updated OS is going to F up once this happens.
    - mark-r 5y ago
      The thing is, they'd F up no matter what change was made to the daylight saving rules. At least this time we have the hope that it will be the last time we have to worry about it.
  - replygirl 5y ago
    > time zones should be based on science alright, prove to me that time zones exist without getting metaphysical
  - jethro_tell 5y ago
    Lol, timezones are made up in the first place. The way we count time is made up. It's just an abstraction layer for coordination with other people. I'd prefer we did away with timezones all together and just globally switched to utc. The primary function of time is for communication and that would be easier after a transition period. It's not going to change what the sun does.
    - kcanini 5y ago
      https://qntm.org/abolish https://qntm.org/abolish
  - tbabb 5y ago
    On the one hand, yes. On the other hand, clock time is entirely a social construct whose whole purpose is to coordinate social and business activity, so it should be specifically designed around social customs in order to serve that purpose.
- Jenda_ 5y ago
  I think permanent DST makes sense from the biological/physiological point of view. Almost no people go to bed at 20 "solar" time and wake up at 4 -- they have it shifted later, so the "biological midnight" is indeed around 1 or 2 hours after the astronomical one - thus what we call "DST" matches better. This matching also helps against the confusion when writing an email late in the evening (i.e., after astronomical midnight) and use something like "we will meet tomorrow". (YMMV, I'm describing situation here in .cz)
  - Jensson 5y ago
    The numbers on the clock doesn't have any biological significance, that is all in your head. They did however use to tell you what state the sun was in.
    - bigmadshoe 5y ago
      The numbers on the clock absolutely do have biological significance, since my biology is influenced by my sleeping and waking times. These are primarily driven by societal expectations (working 9-5, eating dinner between 6-8, etc.), not the state of the sun. As a result, basically no one is awake to appreciate the 'extra' daylight in the early hours of the morning under standard time, but almost everyone can appreciate the 'extra' daylight in the evening under daylight savings time.
    - Jenda_ 5y ago
      It doesn't have biological significance, but it is more convenient to wrap the date when there is the least activity of people (the same reason why we switch DST between 2:00 and 3:00).
- TylerH 5y ago
  Depends on your latitude. Here in Georgia in the US permanent DST is far better than permanent Standard Time. It might be bad up in Canada I suppose.
  - Thorrez 5y ago
    Wouldn't it depend on longitude too? Stepping across a time zone border would be the same as switching between DST and ST.
FastMonkey 5y ago
I've been around, and there very few 9-to-5 places that mind if people work 10-to-6 or 8-to-4 instead.
- ghaff 5y ago
  I think you're overestimating the percentage of jobs that have that level of flexibility.
KerrAvon 5y ago
- CryptoBanker 5y ago
  Read the whole reply. If you want permanent standard time, then one path would be to adopt permanent daylight savings and then change your local time zone to compensate. It would take more effort up front but eliminates the need to change clocks twice a year
  - nulbyte 5y ago
    Isn't this effectively what the legislation does? I read it as striking DST and shifting time zones. Permanent DST is just marketing.
    - Sohcahtoa82 5y ago
      Yes. But "Permanent DST" is a lot easier to say and type than "Eliminate DST and shift the time zones".
    - Wowfunhappy 5y ago
      You could also write "permanent standard time". Does the legislation include shifting time zones?
- Sohcahtoa82 5y ago
  You're parsing it wrong. Or rather, you're not parsing the entire comment. What they're saying is that there are two positions: 1. Permanent Standard Time > Permanent DST > Switching 2. Permanent DST > Permanent Standard Time > Switching And that NOBODY (or at least, an extremely small minority) would rather choose switching over either of the permanent options.
  - notriddle 5y ago
    I know a few people who would choose options 3 and 4... 3. Switching > Permanent Standard Time > Permanent DST 4. Switching > Permanent DST > Permanent Standard Time It's the ones where Switching is in the middle that are basically unheard-of.
screye 5y ago
Does permanent DST mean : A. The sun rises earlier and sets earlier. B. The sun rises later, but sun sets later too.
- ghaff 5y ago
  B (relative to standard time)
- Sohcahtoa82 5y ago
  B. We just entered DST, moving our clocks forward, so we get more daylight at the end of the day.
- betwixthewires 5y ago
  No, the sun rises and sets when it rises and sets. All this means is that at noon the clock says 1:00pm. It's still noon. People are so disconnected from the world that their abstractions of it become more real to them than actual reality. I don't think it is a good thing. Why not just make daylight savings time go away and do things "an hour earlier"? You'd literally be waking up at the same exact time, just that the clock will say 6 instead of 7 or whatever. Are we really so far gone as a society that we will go to such great lengths to fool our brains? It's madness.
  - screye 5y ago
    forgive my meme like reaction but, Bruh....
  - cush 5y ago
    You know what they mean…
  - Wowfunhappy 5y ago
    > People are so disconnected from the world that their abstractions of it become more real to them than actual reality. Because my job starts at 9 am regardless of the position of the sun.
    - 5y ago
bhauer 5y ago
I am in favor of permanent standard time, but failing that, I am super happy with permanent daylight-saving time. Far more important to me is ridding ourselves of the twice-annual insanity of changing clocks. I'd be okay with adopting UTC if that meant our clocks never changed again.
- bayindirh 5y ago
  I'm reporting from a permanent DST country, and let me tell you something. You'll probably leave your home at dark in the morning and will return again at dark. Waking before light is very demanding for some people's bodies. I can't sleep past beyond 9AM, but waking up at night is a big no no for my body. I can't wake up, I can't function, and it creates all kinds of adverse effects. Health is more important than changing clocks two times a year. No, I'm not simply dreading waking up before sunrise. My body can't function until sunrise regardless of the number of hours I sleep. It's built like that. You might not be suffering like me, but I'm not the only one. Half of our office comes in half-asleep during winter hours. And no, sunrise clocks doesn't work for me.
  - michaelt 5y ago
    Could I recommend a sunrise clock? It's like an alarm clock, but with a built in light it gradually turns on over the course of 30 minutes or so, simulating the rising of the sun.
    - bayindirh 5y ago
      Artificial light doesn't work for me, unfortunately. I immediately wake up when the sun shows its light, regardless of presence of artificial light. I'm built like that, everyone to their own.
      - sirmarksalot 5y ago
        So I recognize that everyone's trying to give you advice and you didn't ask for it, so I'll just say this one thing and then I'll shut up. They sell things called "full-spectrum" lightbulbs that actually do a pretty good job of standing in for the sun. They're expensive, and use a ton of electricity, but people who've struggled with seasonal affective disorder swear by them.
Wowfunhappy 5y ago
The one hour switch doesn't bother me that much. I didn't even notice this week when the time changed, because all of my clocks adjusted themselves. A friend had to remind me yesterday when I remarked how it was still light outside. What bothers me is having to wake up when it's still dark outside. The last few days before the DST switch in the fall are always super rough for me, every year. Going through that all winter, every winter... I'm absolutely dreading this! Society is already optimized for early risers and all we're doing is making it worse. Maybe there will eventually be a movement to switch time zones, but it would take at least another decade.
- Ar-Curunir 5y ago
  I prefer to have some sunlight left after getting done with work. This makes life so much better.
  - asiachick 5y ago
    Agreed. For me this is a, slightly, better work-life balance. Instead of giving all the nice daylight hours to work on weekdays I sometimes get 1 more for myself.
    - germandiago 5y ago
      Agree also. In Spain October/November at 17:30 it is dark, maybe 18:00. From 3rd week of June to mid-July it gets dark at 22:00. Uh, what a difference!
- qubitcoder 5y ago
  Personally, as someone with DSPS (Delayed Sleep Phase Syndrome), I absolutely love waking up and going to work when it's still dark in the morning. It feels so productive and motivating. On the contrary, when the sun is already blaring, it feels like you're already running late & behind. Not to mention interfering with already precious sleep. The world is already hyper-optimized for early risers. For once, let those of us who don't naturally fall asleep until well into morning hours enjoy a perk! :-)
codazoda 5y ago
Interesting note, many states already use standard time, such as AZ. But, it is against Federal law, for some reason, to use daylight time. Utah, California, and a few others have already voted to switch to permanent daylight time as soon as the federal government allows it. The states that have this law waiting for the fed asked it to be reviewed. I wonder if daylight time will be the new standard but your state can opt for standard time if they like. This passed the senate today but it still needs to go through the house and president. I hope it’s smooth sailing. Aside: I’m curious why states care about the federal law here but don’t in the case of THC legalization. I think it’s legal with (at least) a medical card in UT and CA.
- cik2e 5y ago
  Just a wild guess, but it may have something to do with the federal government having the sole power to regulate interstate commerce. Which makes me wonder if weed sold in a state has to be grown in that state.
- bigmadshoe 5y ago
  Weed is legal in CA for anyone 21+, no medical card needed.
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > Weed is legal in CA for anyone 21+, Weed is illegal in the USA for everyone's regardless of age.
    - valenaut 5y ago
      Not according to California: https://cannabis.ca.gov/resources/laws-and-regulations https://cannabis.ca.gov/resources/laws-and-regulations
marcod 5y ago
It's such a sign of these tribal times that the perfect is the enemy of the great ... the "if I can't get exactly I want, nobody else should get anything either" behavior.
- germandiago 5y ago
  The problem for me seems to be that everything is regulated to exahustion. Let things be more organic and consensus is easier, over time, without forcing it. Try to force regulations everywhere and then there will be fights and sterile discussion just for the sake of having a regulation, as if it were a must.
davchana 5y ago
In India, there's enough span across the globe that east & west have about 4 of sunrise difference in winters; but all of India has one timezones. Offices, schools, everything has summer opening times & winter opening times. Like Summer 7 to 4, Winter 8 to 5
downrightmike 5y ago
It would be awesome if everyone could just stay on their winter schedule. Having only a East or West time zone instead of EST, CST, MST, AZ, PST.
taneq 5y ago
> If permanent DST really results in the entire country turning into sleep deprived zombies having spontaneous heart attacks as they arrive at work and crashing into children going to school, then there'll be pressure to change it -- but we will have at least already started the process of eliminating the worse thing: changing twice a year. What I don't get is why it's so hard for people to just say "ugh, 5pm is already dark so we should start an hour earlier and go home at 4pm" or whatever. I bet it's those smug morning peoples' fault.
- verall 5y ago
  Because there's a social expectation to be available for meetings until 6PM to have more crossover with my Pacific time coworkers. I will not be able to convince any of them to get up at 4AM just because I like my evening time. They will all remain after 1PM ET so that my CA coworkers have time to drop their kids off at school in the morning.
ryanmcbride 5y ago
I would have preferred no DST instead of permanent DST but I honestly just want the time switch to go away so I'll take it.
ilovesunlight 5y ago
States can already turn off the switching by selecting permanent ST. This bill simply adds permanent DST as another option. It doesn't not force anyone into permanent DST.
IncRnd 5y ago
> I'd kill for a peek into the parallel universe where it was permanent standard time that was likely to get adopted and see how much effort went into researching the ill effects of that choice to convince people with enough FUD to keep daylight time switching going. You don't need to kill anyone. You can just travel to AZ or HI, neither of which changes their clocks for DST.
plq 5y ago
Well, Turkey has moved from UTC+2 plus DST in summer to UTC+3 permanently. People seem to hate it. Here's a news report lamenting the decision: https://www-cumhuriyet-com-tr.translate.goog/turkiye/kalici-yaz-saati-uygulamasi-yarattigi-sorunlarla-birlikte-5-yilina-girdi-1886606?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp https://www-cumhuriyet-com-tr.translate.goog/turkiye/kalici-... Personally, I'm happy that we get more sunlight after work hours but people who need to get up early (especially children who get up early to go to school) reportedly are frustrated with it. I'm trying to find a pro-permanent-DST article but not having much success with it. Here's a more balanced take on the issue with psychologists chiming in: https://tr-sputniknews-com.translate.goog/20211123/kalici-yaz-saati-uygulamasi-sagligi-ve-toplumsal-yasami-nasil-etkiliyor-1051077671.html?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp https://tr-sputniknews-com.translate.goog/20211123/kalici-ya... Here's a non-newspaper source (don't miss the references bit in the end if you're interesed): https://bilimveaydinlanma-org.translate.goog/kalici-yaz-saati-uygulamasi/?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp https://bilimveaydinlanma-org.translate.goog/kalici-yaz-saat... It objectively seems like a bad idea, It appears Turkey should move back to UTC+2 and stay there. Permanent DST has many downsides.
losvedir 5y ago
You can compare longitudes within a timezone. China is on one big timezone, and if you're out in Xinjiang "8am" means something totally different from in Beijing. I live in Chicago, which is about as far east as Central Time goes. You could compare to western Kansas. If one of us is "daylight time" by the sun, the other is "standard time", more or less. Or hell, about an hour straight south of me (Indianapolis) it's on Eastern time. Same longitude, same latitude, but one city is ET and one is CT. There's a comparison to look at as well.
greyhair 5y ago
I agree, but schools need to get ahead of this, and plan for a later start to the school day, before this takes effect, because we already have firm data on the fact that the school day already starts to early, and permanent DST is going to make that worse. Personally, I'll just shift my 7:AM to 4:PM day to being 8:AM to 5:PM. But my wife cannot do that. She'll be stuck at 7 to 4.

Arubis 5y ago

Agreed. The posted decision (permanently DST) is stupid, but less stupid than switching.

moffkalast 5y ago
I feel like the permanent DST option is a bit stupid in principle since as the other guy says it's about switching time zones and time zones should be primarily longitude based, not I-feel-like-being-in-whatever based because that's nonsense. As an example France and Spain have no business being in CET/GMT+1 at all. France is geographically entirely in GMT, while some of Spain is in GMT-1 even, I mean what the actual fuck. Time zones should be based on science, and work/school schedules should be flexible enough that people can decide on a company/institutional level when to start. If you want to start later, start later, don't fuck with the countrywide clock and make timekeeping a nightmare you goddamn idiots.
- chias 5y ago
  Timezones are based on who you do business with, and who you primarily need to coordinate with. Timezones aren't inherently anything, they're purely a measure that humans use to make our lives more convenient. If you want to argue hard science, you'll have an uphill job of explaining to me why there should be 24 timezones and not 1440 of them. With that in mind, picture how annoying it would be if you crossed a timezone line on your way to your (or your child's) school. Picture how annoying it would be if half the restaurants, shops, and businesses in your town were in one timezone, and the other half were in another. These issues are what timezones address, just on a governmental level. Timezones don't try to be "correct", they try to be useful.
  - chimeracoder 5y ago
    > Timezones don't try to be "correct", they try to be useful This is correct. As engineers we can design the most symmetric and "perfect" system, but at the end of the day, if it's not useful, people will just adopt something else instead. > If you want to argue hard science, you'll have an uphill job of explaining to me why there should be 24 timezones and not 1440 of them. There's a good argument against having too many time zones (this article is about continuous timezones, but the arguments are still applicable) https://qntm.org/continuous https://qntm.org/continuous
  - moffkalast 5y ago
    > and not 1440 of them Well actually there are 96 of them in practice, I think it's tracked in increments of 15 minutes since anything less is a bit meaningless. Of course in reality it's continuous so there are infinite timezones, but the only practical thing we can change are hours so minutes don't get offset and make planning even more of a nightmare. If we used a more sensible base 10 time keeping one could probably do more. > picture how annoying it would be if you crossed a timezone line on your way to your (or your child's) school I'm pretty sure this happens in the US to people on a daily basis? It's the unfortunate reality of living on a rotating sphere that you really can't avoid if you cross country/state lines often. > they try to be useful I don't see how it's useful to keep west Spain 2 hours late to their actual sunrise time. It must be rather maddening.
    - mynameisvlad 5y ago
      > Well actually there are 96 of them in practice, I think it's tracked in increments of 15 minutes since anything less is a bit meaningless. I don't think most of those exist, actually. If nobody is observing (for example) +6:45, I wouldn't count it as an actual time zone. Even :30 tzs are fairly rare, I think the number of :15/45 is counted on one hand.
      - moffkalast 5y ago
        Nepal uses a 15 min offset I think, but I wouldn't expect anyone to really use that in a practical fashion. I'd expect it to be used in say astronomical observations, where this sort of thing actually matters and isn't treated as made up or subject to stupid opinions. Or other kinds of calculations that need the sun's position to match more accurately.
- nomdep 5y ago
  Spain is in GMT+1 because Franco wanted to be in the same time zone as Nazi Germany https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/12/14/fascism-helped-create-a-time-zone-oddity-in-spain-70-years-later-it-may-finally-be-undone/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/12/14...
  - moffkalast 5y ago
    Ah another one to add to the pile of things made by nazis that are still in use, along with the olympic torch relay and Fanta.
    - elpakal 5y ago
      Pretty small pile lol. Anything else on there?
      - PeterisP 5y ago
        Jerry cans come to mind, it seems that almost everyone around the world is using the Wehrmacht design.
- frereubu 5y ago
  > France and Spain have no business being in CET/GMT+1 at all Technically of course you're correct (and you'd probably need to include the Netherlands, Belgium and Luxembourg in there), but thousands of people drive across those borders every day. Clearly the timezones need to have borders somewhere, but it's probably easier in practical terms to keep the timezones of adjacent countries synchronised wherever possible. It also makes sense of the very late-night culture of Spain when compared to countries further east, because they're probably eating around the same solar time as the other countries. The one I find weirdest is the western hold-out Portugal.
  - moffkalast 5y ago
    Portugal is always the exception :)
- rob74 5y ago
  Tell that to China, who should have at least 3 time zones, but have only one - and that's not even "centered", it's Beijing time, which is pretty far east. But yeah, for the people in Tibet and Xinjiang, living in the completely wrong time zone is the least of their worries...
- asiachick 5y ago
  One requires one entity, the US government, to make a decision. The other requires millions of entities to make a decision. For this case, the government making the decision makes more sense IMO. Every restaurant, coffee-shop, supermarket etc, doesn't have to do anything (they're already on DST). Everything is already happening. Deliveries are already scheduled for opening hours etc... Your suggested way would require millions of not billions of little coordinations. That said, every old non-updated OS is going to F up once this happens.
  - mark-r 5y ago
    The thing is, they'd F up no matter what change was made to the daylight saving rules. At least this time we have the hope that it will be the last time we have to worry about it.
- replygirl 5y ago
  > time zones should be based on science alright, prove to me that time zones exist without getting metaphysical
- jethro_tell 5y ago
  Lol, timezones are made up in the first place. The way we count time is made up. It's just an abstraction layer for coordination with other people. I'd prefer we did away with timezones all together and just globally switched to utc. The primary function of time is for communication and that would be easier after a transition period. It's not going to change what the sun does.
  - kcanini 5y ago
    https://qntm.org/abolish https://qntm.org/abolish
- tbabb 5y ago
  On the one hand, yes. On the other hand, clock time is entirely a social construct whose whole purpose is to coordinate social and business activity, so it should be specifically designed around social customs in order to serve that purpose.
Jenda_ 5y ago
I think permanent DST makes sense from the biological/physiological point of view. Almost no people go to bed at 20 "solar" time and wake up at 4 -- they have it shifted later, so the "biological midnight" is indeed around 1 or 2 hours after the astronomical one - thus what we call "DST" matches better. This matching also helps against the confusion when writing an email late in the evening (i.e., after astronomical midnight) and use something like "we will meet tomorrow". (YMMV, I'm describing situation here in .cz)
- Jensson 5y ago
  The numbers on the clock doesn't have any biological significance, that is all in your head. They did however use to tell you what state the sun was in.
  - bigmadshoe 5y ago
    The numbers on the clock absolutely do have biological significance, since my biology is influenced by my sleeping and waking times. These are primarily driven by societal expectations (working 9-5, eating dinner between 6-8, etc.), not the state of the sun. As a result, basically no one is awake to appreciate the 'extra' daylight in the early hours of the morning under standard time, but almost everyone can appreciate the 'extra' daylight in the evening under daylight savings time.
  - Jenda_ 5y ago
    It doesn't have biological significance, but it is more convenient to wrap the date when there is the least activity of people (the same reason why we switch DST between 2:00 and 3:00).
TylerH 5y ago
Depends on your latitude. Here in Georgia in the US permanent DST is far better than permanent Standard Time. It might be bad up in Canada I suppose.
- Thorrez 5y ago
  Wouldn't it depend on longitude too? Stepping across a time zone border would be the same as switching between DST and ST.

FastMonkey 5y ago

I've been around, and there very few 9-to-5 places that mind if people work 10-to-6 or 8-to-4 instead.

ghaff 5y ago
I think you're overestimating the percentage of jobs that have that level of flexibility.

KerrAvon 5y ago

CryptoBanker 5y ago
Read the whole reply. If you want permanent standard time, then one path would be to adopt permanent daylight savings and then change your local time zone to compensate. It would take more effort up front but eliminates the need to change clocks twice a year
- nulbyte 5y ago
  Isn't this effectively what the legislation does? I read it as striking DST and shifting time zones. Permanent DST is just marketing.
  - Sohcahtoa82 5y ago
    Yes. But "Permanent DST" is a lot easier to say and type than "Eliminate DST and shift the time zones".
  - Wowfunhappy 5y ago
    You could also write "permanent standard time". Does the legislation include shifting time zones?
Sohcahtoa82 5y ago
You're parsing it wrong. Or rather, you're not parsing the entire comment. What they're saying is that there are two positions: 1. Permanent Standard Time > Permanent DST > Switching 2. Permanent DST > Permanent Standard Time > Switching And that NOBODY (or at least, an extremely small minority) would rather choose switching over either of the permanent options.
- notriddle 5y ago
  I know a few people who would choose options 3 and 4... 3. Switching > Permanent Standard Time > Permanent DST 4. Switching > Permanent DST > Permanent Standard Time It's the ones where Switching is in the middle that are basically unheard-of.

screye 5y ago

Does permanent DST mean : A. The sun rises earlier and sets earlier. B. The sun rises later, but sun sets later too.

ghaff 5y ago
B (relative to standard time)
Sohcahtoa82 5y ago
B. We just entered DST, moving our clocks forward, so we get more daylight at the end of the day.
betwixthewires 5y ago
No, the sun rises and sets when it rises and sets. All this means is that at noon the clock says 1:00pm. It's still noon. People are so disconnected from the world that their abstractions of it become more real to them than actual reality. I don't think it is a good thing. Why not just make daylight savings time go away and do things "an hour earlier"? You'd literally be waking up at the same exact time, just that the clock will say 6 instead of 7 or whatever. Are we really so far gone as a society that we will go to such great lengths to fool our brains? It's madness.
- screye 5y ago
  forgive my meme like reaction but, Bruh....
- cush 5y ago
  You know what they mean…
- Wowfunhappy 5y ago
  > People are so disconnected from the world that their abstractions of it become more real to them than actual reality. Because my job starts at 9 am regardless of the position of the sun.
  - 5y ago

bhauer 5y ago

I am in favor of permanent standard time, but failing that, I am super happy with permanent daylight-saving time. Far more important to me is ridding ourselves of the twice-annual insanity of changing clocks. I'd be okay with adopting UTC if that meant our clocks never changed again.

bayindirh 5y ago
I'm reporting from a permanent DST country, and let me tell you something. You'll probably leave your home at dark in the morning and will return again at dark. Waking before light is very demanding for some people's bodies. I can't sleep past beyond 9AM, but waking up at night is a big no no for my body. I can't wake up, I can't function, and it creates all kinds of adverse effects. Health is more important than changing clocks two times a year. No, I'm not simply dreading waking up before sunrise. My body can't function until sunrise regardless of the number of hours I sleep. It's built like that. You might not be suffering like me, but I'm not the only one. Half of our office comes in half-asleep during winter hours. And no, sunrise clocks doesn't work for me.
- michaelt 5y ago
  Could I recommend a sunrise clock? It's like an alarm clock, but with a built in light it gradually turns on over the course of 30 minutes or so, simulating the rising of the sun.
  - bayindirh 5y ago
    Artificial light doesn't work for me, unfortunately. I immediately wake up when the sun shows its light, regardless of presence of artificial light. I'm built like that, everyone to their own.
    - sirmarksalot 5y ago
      So I recognize that everyone's trying to give you advice and you didn't ask for it, so I'll just say this one thing and then I'll shut up. They sell things called "full-spectrum" lightbulbs that actually do a pretty good job of standing in for the sun. They're expensive, and use a ton of electricity, but people who've struggled with seasonal affective disorder swear by them.

Wowfunhappy 5y ago

The one hour switch doesn't bother me that much. I didn't even notice this week when the time changed, because all of my clocks adjusted themselves. A friend had to remind me yesterday when I remarked how it was still light outside. What bothers me is having to wake up when it's still dark outside. The last few days before the DST switch in the fall are always super rough for me, every year. Going through that all winter, every winter... I'm absolutely dreading this! Society is already optimized for early risers and all we're doing is making it worse. Maybe there will eventually be a movement to switch time zones, but it would take at least another decade.

Ar-Curunir 5y ago
I prefer to have some sunlight left after getting done with work. This makes life so much better.
- asiachick 5y ago
  Agreed. For me this is a, slightly, better work-life balance. Instead of giving all the nice daylight hours to work on weekdays I sometimes get 1 more for myself.
  - germandiago 5y ago
    Agree also. In Spain October/November at 17:30 it is dark, maybe 18:00. From 3rd week of June to mid-July it gets dark at 22:00. Uh, what a difference!
qubitcoder 5y ago
Personally, as someone with DSPS (Delayed Sleep Phase Syndrome), I absolutely love waking up and going to work when it's still dark in the morning. It feels so productive and motivating. On the contrary, when the sun is already blaring, it feels like you're already running late & behind. Not to mention interfering with already precious sleep. The world is already hyper-optimized for early risers. For once, let those of us who don't naturally fall asleep until well into morning hours enjoy a perk! :-)

codazoda 5y ago

Interesting note, many states already use standard time, such as AZ. But, it is against Federal law, for some reason, to use daylight time. Utah, California, and a few others have already voted to switch to permanent daylight time as soon as the federal government allows it. The states that have this law waiting for the fed asked it to be reviewed. I wonder if daylight time will be the new standard but your state can opt for standard time if they like. This passed the senate today but it still needs to go through the house and president. I hope it’s smooth sailing. Aside: I’m curious why states care about the federal law here but don’t in the case of THC legalization. I think it’s legal with (at least) a medical card in UT and CA.

cik2e 5y ago
Just a wild guess, but it may have something to do with the federal government having the sole power to regulate interstate commerce. Which makes me wonder if weed sold in a state has to be grown in that state.
bigmadshoe 5y ago
Weed is legal in CA for anyone 21+, no medical card needed.
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > Weed is legal in CA for anyone 21+, Weed is illegal in the USA for everyone's regardless of age.
  - valenaut 5y ago
    Not according to California: https://cannabis.ca.gov/resources/laws-and-regulations https://cannabis.ca.gov/resources/laws-and-regulations

marcod 5y ago

It's such a sign of these tribal times that the perfect is the enemy of the great ... the "if I can't get exactly I want, nobody else should get anything either" behavior.

germandiago 5y ago
The problem for me seems to be that everything is regulated to exahustion. Let things be more organic and consensus is easier, over time, without forcing it. Try to force regulations everywhere and then there will be fights and sterile discussion just for the sake of having a regulation, as if it were a must.

davchana 5y ago

In India, there's enough span across the globe that east & west have about 4 of sunrise difference in winters; but all of India has one timezones. Offices, schools, everything has summer opening times & winter opening times. Like Summer 7 to 4, Winter 8 to 5

downrightmike 5y ago

It would be awesome if everyone could just stay on their winter schedule. Having only a East or West time zone instead of EST, CST, MST, AZ, PST.

taneq 5y ago

> If permanent DST really results in the entire country turning into sleep deprived zombies having spontaneous heart attacks as they arrive at work and crashing into children going to school, then there'll be pressure to change it -- but we will have at least already started the process of eliminating the worse thing: changing twice a year. What I don't get is why it's so hard for people to just say "ugh, 5pm is already dark so we should start an hour earlier and go home at 4pm" or whatever. I bet it's those smug morning peoples' fault.

verall 5y ago
Because there's a social expectation to be available for meetings until 6PM to have more crossover with my Pacific time coworkers. I will not be able to convince any of them to get up at 4AM just because I like my evening time. They will all remain after 1PM ET so that my CA coworkers have time to drop their kids off at school in the morning.

ryanmcbride 5y ago

I would have preferred no DST instead of permanent DST but I honestly just want the time switch to go away so I'll take it.

ilovesunlight 5y ago

States can already turn off the switching by selecting permanent ST. This bill simply adds permanent DST as another option. It doesn't not force anyone into permanent DST.

IncRnd 5y ago

> I'd kill for a peek into the parallel universe where it was permanent standard time that was likely to get adopted and see how much effort went into researching the ill effects of that choice to convince people with enough FUD to keep daylight time switching going. You don't need to kill anyone. You can just travel to AZ or HI, neither of which changes their clocks for DST.

plq 5y ago

Well, Turkey has moved from UTC+2 plus DST in summer to UTC+3 permanently. People seem to hate it. Here's a news report lamenting the decision: https://www-cumhuriyet-com-tr.translate.goog/turkiye/kalici-yaz-saati-uygulamasi-yarattigi-sorunlarla-birlikte-5-yilina-girdi-1886606?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp https://www-cumhuriyet-com-tr.translate.goog/turkiye/kalici-... Personally, I'm happy that we get more sunlight after work hours but people who need to get up early (especially children who get up early to go to school) reportedly are frustrated with it. I'm trying to find a pro-permanent-DST article but not having much success with it. Here's a more balanced take on the issue with psychologists chiming in: https://tr-sputniknews-com.translate.goog/20211123/kalici-yaz-saati-uygulamasi-sagligi-ve-toplumsal-yasami-nasil-etkiliyor-1051077671.html?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp https://tr-sputniknews-com.translate.goog/20211123/kalici-ya... Here's a non-newspaper source (don't miss the references bit in the end if you're interesed): https://bilimveaydinlanma-org.translate.goog/kalici-yaz-saati-uygulamasi/?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp https://bilimveaydinlanma-org.translate.goog/kalici-yaz-saat... It objectively seems like a bad idea, It appears Turkey should move back to UTC+2 and stay there. Permanent DST has many downsides.

losvedir 5y ago

You can compare longitudes within a timezone. China is on one big timezone, and if you're out in Xinjiang "8am" means something totally different from in Beijing. I live in Chicago, which is about as far east as Central Time goes. You could compare to western Kansas. If one of us is "daylight time" by the sun, the other is "standard time", more or less. Or hell, about an hour straight south of me (Indianapolis) it's on Eastern time. Same longitude, same latitude, but one city is ET and one is CT. There's a comparison to look at as well.

greyhair 5y ago

I agree, but schools need to get ahead of this, and plan for a later start to the school day, before this takes effect, because we already have firm data on the fact that the school day already starts to early, and permanent DST is going to make that worse. Personally, I'll just shift my 7:AM to 4:PM day to being 8:AM to 5:PM. But my wife cannot do that. She'll be stuck at 7 to 4.